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SMiLE-Holland
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« on: February 06, 2020, 06:46:54 AM »

... gone but not forgotten...

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« Reply #1 on: February 06, 2020, 08:34:30 AM »

RIP Carl.

If only he was here today, think about how much better things would be.
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« Reply #2 on: February 06, 2020, 09:03:30 AM »

RIP Carl.

If only he was here today, think about how much better things would be.

This is a thread to celebrate Carl, so I won't go too far into the weeds. Carl's ability and standing to be a good mediator and peacemaker was an integral part of keeping the BBs going while he was alive.

But as the 90s wore on, Carl actually abdicated a lot of aspects of running the band to Mike. Because we know so little about Carl, we don't know precisely why or how this happened. Just sort of attrition to some degree I guess. But near the end (and unrelated to his illness as far as I know), Carl didn't side with Al when Al opposed Mike's production company taking over running the BB tours (which, arguably, began the process of where we're at now where Mike's company runs the tour and licenses the name and thus his production company can fire or hire, etc.).

If Carl were still alive today, I'd wager he'd either have ended up entering sort of Robert Lamm-mode of just going with the flow and touring and bringing the money in, or he would have left/retired from the touring band.

I think ultimately we just don't know how things would have shaken out had Carl lived. But considering how things were going by the mid-late 90s, with Carl stepping back from leadership of the touring band, and with his musical tastes potentially skewing a bit more conservative/adult contemporary, I've never signed on to this Brian/BB fan wet dream idea that he would have formed a new band with Brian or regularly toured with Brian, and/or that he would have taken more active action against Mike in some fashion.

But again, if he were here, we'd have that great voice and the the man himself, who made fewer enemies than just about anybody in the BB sphere over the years. Maybe he wouldn't have been able to hold the band together much longer, but maybe he also would have been able to better broker things once they did manage to get back together.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2020, 09:04:12 AM by HeyJude » Logged

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« Reply #3 on: February 06, 2020, 09:19:50 AM »

RIP Carl.

If only he was here today, think about how much better things would be.

This is a thread to celebrate Carl, so I won't go too far into the weeds. Carl's ability and standing to be a good mediator and peacemaker was an integral part of keeping the BBs going while he was alive.

But as the 90s wore on, Carl actually abdicated a lot of aspects of running the band to Mike. Because we know so little about Carl, we don't know precisely why or how this happened. Just sort of attrition to some degree I guess. But near the end (and unrelated to his illness as far as I know), Carl didn't side with Al when Al opposed Mike's production company taking over running the BB tours (which, arguably, began the process of where we're at now where Mike's company runs the tour and licenses the name and thus his production company can fire or hire, etc.).

If Carl were still alive today, I'd wager he'd either have ended up entering sort of Robert Lamm-mode of just going with the flow and touring and bringing the money in, or he would have left/retired from the touring band.

I think ultimately we just don't know how things would have shaken out had Carl lived. But considering how things were going by the mid-late 90s, with Carl stepping back from leadership of the touring band, and with his musical tastes potentially skewing a bit more conservative/adult contemporary, I've never signed on to this Brian/BB fan wet dream idea that he would have formed a new band with Brian or regularly toured with Brian, and/or that he would have taken more active action against Mike in some fashion.

But again, if he were here, we'd have that great voice and the the man himself, who made fewer enemies than just about anybody in the BB sphere over the years. Maybe he wouldn't have been able to hold the band together much longer, but maybe he also would have been able to better broker things once they did manage to get back together.

I think as time wore on, Carl didn't have as much "fight" in him anymore. It likely became such a personal struggle to deal with the family goings-on with his brother and mother, that pushing for artistic integrity and such didn't hold the same appeal anymore. So yes, I could see Carl letting Mike have more and more power, and stepping back more, had he lived.

That said, I think Carl still would have put his foot down when it came to moral matters, the awful event of yesterday being one of them.

"Inappropriate" as he would say.

Oh how Carl is missed so, so much. What a great human.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2020, 10:43:42 AM by CenturyDeprived » Logged
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« Reply #4 on: February 06, 2020, 11:51:29 AM »

Very true, I doubt we would have gotten a shoulder shrug from Carl about the president's son insulting Brian, and the entire s**t-show happening because Mike was stubborn and just really *had* to play to a hotel ballroom full of mostly old, rich men who enjoy killing rare animals for fun.
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« Reply #5 on: February 06, 2020, 12:37:27 PM »

2/6/1998 was very difficult for me. First time I ever cried over a famous person's death. It made me think of how when I saw the Beach Boys for the first time in the summer of 1996 that the opening of "California Girls" that night had so much electric energy...and I'd never get to experience that same energy again.

I remember at the time the rumors going around were that Carl was getting better, and that he said "the prayers are working." Then all of a sudden, *boom* he's gone. One pseudo-insider told me he WAS getting better -- and Al Jardine's description of how Carl looked at Audree's funeral [as he said when Goldmine interviewed him] also supported that -- but the cancer suddenly took a huge turn for the worse.

The Mrs. and I often wonder if Brian would have ventured out on the road if it weren't for Carl's death...that maybe losing Carl kicked him in the rear and helped him decided that it was now or never. Or maybe Carl would have performed with Brian, at least on an occasion or two. Or would he perhaps have appeared on the Smile album? (Listen to Jeff's vocal part on "Child is Father of the Man" and tell me you don't hear Carl's voice.)

Strangely, word is that Carl always shot down potential releases of "Soulful Old Man Sunshine" because he wasn't happy with it. Wonder how true that is. And how true it is that he couldn't get past his "shunshine" vocal flub (and why he couldn't just re-dub it if that were the case -- his voice didn't change much over the years).
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« Reply #6 on: February 06, 2020, 12:37:55 PM »

Its really sad to think about what would have happened if he was still alive.
I still think that Brian would be working on his solo career, but maybe the 2004 Smile could have had more BB input. Also, I think that the 2012 50 year fiasco would have ended differently. And I donít think yesterday would have happened at all
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« Reply #7 on: February 06, 2020, 12:55:11 PM »

2/6/1998 was very difficult for me. First time I ever cried over a famous person's death. It made me think of how when I saw the Beach Boys for the first time in the summer of 1996 that the opening of "California Girls" that night had so much electric energy...and I'd never get to experience that same energy again.

I remember at the time the rumors going around were that Carl was getting better, and that he said "the prayers are working." Then all of a sudden, *boom* he's gone. One pseudo-insider told me he WAS getting better -- and Al Jardine's description of how Carl looked at Audree's funeral [as he said when Goldmine interviewed him] also supported that -- but the cancer suddenly took a huge turn for the worse.

The Mrs. and I often wonder if Brian would have ventured out on the road if it weren't for Carl's death...that maybe losing Carl kicked him in the rear and helped him decided that it was now or never. Or maybe Carl would have performed with Brian, at least on an occasion or two. Or would he perhaps have appeared on the Smile album? (Listen to Jeff's vocal part on "Child is Father of the Man" and tell me you don't hear Carl's voice.)

Strangely, word is that Carl always shot down potential releases of "Soulful Old Man Sunshine" because he wasn't happy with it. Wonder how true that is. And how true it is that he couldn't get past his "shunshine" vocal flub (and why he couldn't just re-dub it if that were the case -- his voice didn't change much over the years).
I still think we would have gotten more BB albums. Brian did start working on new BB material between 1992-1996, but after Carlís death he made his exit and gave Mike the name. I believe I read somewhere that several of the songs on Imagination, Getting In Over My Head and Thats Why God Made the Radio were originally written for a late 90s BB comeback.
Also, now that I think about it, if Carl were still alive, BWPS would probably not exist. They probably would have just added new vocals to a few of the old 60s tracks.
And yes, Carl did not want SOMSS ever released because of the vocal flub, and from what Iíve read, the multi tracks for it are long gone, so a simple fix like that would not be very simple. Thats why the song sounds so weird, parts of it were only mixed in Mono, where as the rest of it was mixed in Stereo, and they have no access to the original tracks to fix it
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« Reply #8 on: February 06, 2020, 01:49:42 PM »

Slaap zacht, lieve Carl.
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« Reply #9 on: February 06, 2020, 02:04:22 PM »

I'm not interested in discussing band politics or what ifs, I just wish he was still with us. A very dear man, indeed.
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« Reply #10 on: February 06, 2020, 02:15:14 PM »

God bless Carl.  Gone but not forgotten.

I don't want to be a skunk at the garden party, but all this fantasizing about Carl teaming up with Brian on BW's latter day projects doesn't have a lot of foundation in reality.

Look at the last decade and a half of Carl's life... was there evidence of a huge desire by Carl to work with Brian then?    Anyone remember the Don Was album project in late 1995?  Don Was, Andy Paley and Brian wanted to do a Beach Boys album.  They did some sessions... Soul Searchin, You're Still a Mystery etc.   It was reported in Peter Carlin's book and elsewhere that Carl was the one who pulled the plug on that project.  He reportedly didn't like the Wilson/Paley songs.

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« Reply #11 on: February 06, 2020, 02:34:25 PM »

God bless Carl.  Gone but not forgotten.

I don't want to be a skunk at the garden party, but all this fantasizing about Carl teaming up with Brian on BW's latter day projects doesn't have a lot of foundation in reality.

Look at the last decade and a half of Carl's life... was there evidence of a huge desire by Carl to work with Brian then?    Anyone remember the Don Was album project in late 1995?  Don Was, Andy Paley and Brian wanted to do a Beach Boys album.  They did some sessions... Soul Searchin, You're Still a Mystery etc.   It was reported in Peter Carlin's book and elsewhere that Carl was the one who pulled the plug on that project.  He reportedly didn't like the Wilson/Paley songs.


But look at how things change with these guys. Time often would heal wounds. (Not all wounds, of course). But was there a snowball's chance in hell of SMiLE being completed and released in the '90s? Nobody ever thought it would have happened. Would anyone have thought Brian and Mike would be singing and writing anything together? Then TWGMTR happened, years later. In fact, I remain shocked that in 2018, post C50, there was a group reunion for SiriusXM.

I think some ice would have thawed, and Carl and Brian would have worked out their differences, which seem to have largely stemmed from the aftermath of that scumbag Landy, and what Landy tragically did to intentionally estrange the two brothers.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2020, 02:36:03 PM by CenturyDeprived » Logged
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« Reply #12 on: February 06, 2020, 02:48:21 PM »

I understand those who aren't into what-ifs, but what the hey, it's one of the things discussion boards are for.

Knowing what we know about what *did* happen, and the trend prior to Carl's death, I'm guessing this is how it would have shaken out in the several years after 1997:

We know from the Marks/Stebbins book that that Mike was supposedly seeking out Dave to be in the band, as a replacement for *Al*, not Carl.

I'm guessing, had Carl recovered and lived and stayed on, Al would have still been gone within a year or so, probably some time in 1998. Carl would have still been there. I'm not sure how Carl would have reacted to Dave joining, both in general or specifically as a replacement for Al. Carl was magnanimous about Dave having joined when he sent a positive message through one of the crew to Dave in late 1997. But I think his head was on his mother's health and his, so he didn't care much at that stage about the band.

Had he been healthy with no signs of needing to depart, would Mike have even sought out Dave, even if he assumed Al might be gone before too long? If he *had* sought out Dave, would Carl have been skeptical in any way?

Either way, if we assume Dave would have joined, but still took the same path as he actually did, he would still be gone by 1999.

I think Brian was already starting up his solo thing, and probably still would have recorded and toured solo.

Would he have taken a detour around 2000 or something to record with the other guys? Well, at that stage that *wouldn't* include Al in this scenario. So who knows.

I'm guessing by some point in the mid-2000s, some sort of reunion would have been concocted, reintroducing Brian and Al to the band.

Past the mid-2000s, even wild speculation is difficult. Would Carl have eventually tired of Mike's deal? If so, that would have meant Carl walking, or asserting himself. Hard to say. If they had reunited around, say, 2005 or 2006, what would have happened after that? It would have depended quite a bit on how Carl voted, and his attitude in general. 
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« Reply #13 on: February 06, 2020, 04:27:56 PM »

But look at how things change with these guys. Time often would heal wounds. (Not all wounds, of course). But was there a snowball's chance in hell of SMiLE being completed and released in the '90s? Nobody ever thought it would have happened. Would anyone have thought Brian and Mike would be singing and writing anything together? Then TWGMTR happened, years later. In fact, I remain shocked that in 2018, post C50, there was a group reunion for SiriusXM.

I think some ice would have thawed, and Carl and Brian would have worked out their differences, which seem to have largely stemmed from the aftermath of that scumbag Landy, and what Landy tragically did to intentionally estrange the two brothers.

Well, you make good points.  The '90s were such a different time.   This article in the Chicago Tribune from 1991 gives some interesting insights into where the Brian-Carl relationship was at that time.
https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1991-11-17-9104140084-story.html

One line really strikes me from that article... "But Carl has said he doesn't care if Wilson ever writes music again-he just wants his brother to be healthy and happy."

Carl's perspective was not that of a fan but rather that of a younger brother of an enormously talented man whose life had been pretty badly undone, in part due to his own enormous success (and the excesses and pressures that had accompanied that success).  It's understandable that Carl would have had mixed feelings about working with Brian or even the idea of Brian working at all.

Oh, but to have been a fly on the wall for this, though...

Although the case is scheduled to go to court Monday, Wilson says it may not get that far, partially because of a recent meeting between Wilson and Carl at a hotel near the Los Angeles airport.
''Just me and Carl . . .'' Wilson says. ''Just two brothers. We were singing. There was a piano there. We were doing our vocals.''
The brothers sang some old Beach Boys classics-including ''Wild Honey'' and ''Aren`t You Glad'' and ''Darlin` ''-that haven`t been heard much in the past 15 years as the group has become chiefly a surf-and-car nostalgia act.
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« Reply #14 on: February 06, 2020, 04:37:21 PM »

But look at how things change with these guys. Time often would heal wounds. (Not all wounds, of course). But was there a snowball's chance in hell of SMiLE being completed and released in the '90s? Nobody ever thought it would have happened. Would anyone have thought Brian and Mike would be singing and writing anything together? Then TWGMTR happened, years later. In fact, I remain shocked that in 2018, post C50, there was a group reunion for SiriusXM.

I think some ice would have thawed, and Carl and Brian would have worked out their differences, which seem to have largely stemmed from the aftermath of that scumbag Landy, and what Landy tragically did to intentionally estrange the two brothers.

Well, you make good points.  The '90s were such a different time.   This article in the Chicago Tribune from 1991 gives some interesting insights into where the Brian-Carl relationship was at that time.
https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1991-11-17-9104140084-story.html

One line really strikes me from that article... "But Carl has said he doesn't care if Wilson ever writes music again-he just wants his brother to be healthy and happy."

Carl's perspective was not that of a fan but rather that of a younger brother of an enormously talented man whose life had been pretty badly undone, in part due to his own enormous success (and the excesses and pressures that had accompanied that success).  It's understandable that Carl would have had mixed feelings about working with Brian or even the idea of Brian working at all.

Oh, but to have been a fly on the wall for this, though...

Although the case is scheduled to go to court Monday, Wilson says it may not get that far, partially because of a recent meeting between Wilson and Carl at a hotel near the Los Angeles airport.
''Just me and Carl . . .'' Wilson says. ''Just two brothers. We were singing. There was a piano there. We were doing our vocals.''
The brothers sang some old Beach Boys classics-including ''Wild Honey'' and ''Aren`t You Glad'' and ''Darlin` ''-that haven`t been heard much in the past 15 years as the group has become chiefly a surf-and-car nostalgia act.

If I could here 1991 Brian and Carl just singing some classics, that would make my decade
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« Reply #15 on: February 06, 2020, 04:38:01 PM »

But look at how things change with these guys. Time often would heal wounds. (Not all wounds, of course). But was there a snowball's chance in hell of SMiLE being completed and released in the '90s? Nobody ever thought it would have happened. Would anyone have thought Brian and Mike would be singing and writing anything together? Then TWGMTR happened, years later. In fact, I remain shocked that in 2018, post C50, there was a group reunion for SiriusXM.

I think some ice would have thawed, and Carl and Brian would have worked out their differences, which seem to have largely stemmed from the aftermath of that scumbag Landy, and what Landy tragically did to intentionally estrange the two brothers.

Well, you make good points.  The '90s were such a different time.   This article in the Chicago Tribune from 1991 gives some interesting insights into where the Brian-Carl relationship was at that time.
https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1991-11-17-9104140084-story.html

One line really strikes me from that article... "But Carl has said he doesn't care if Wilson ever writes music again-he just wants his brother to be healthy and happy."

Carl's perspective was not that of a fan but rather that of a younger brother of an enormously talented man whose life had been pretty badly undone, in part due to his own enormous success (and the excesses and pressures that had accompanied that success).  It's understandable that Carl would have had mixed feelings about working with Brian or even the idea of Brian working at all.

Oh, but to have been a fly on the wall for this, though...

Although the case is scheduled to go to court Monday, Wilson says it may not get that far, partially because of a recent meeting between Wilson and Carl at a hotel near the Los Angeles airport.
''Just me and Carl . . .'' Wilson says. ''Just two brothers. We were singing. There was a piano there. We were doing our vocals.''
The brothers sang some old Beach Boys classics-including ''Wild Honey'' and ''Aren`t You Glad'' and ''Darlin` ''-that haven`t been heard much in the past 15 years as the group has become chiefly a surf-and-car nostalgia act.


That last paragraph damn near got me choked up.
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« Reply #16 on: February 06, 2020, 05:07:29 PM »

He's just missed tremendously.  His unmatched voice, his steadying presence. I do believe, had he lived, he would have supported Brian's touring and recording with the band. We have to remember that the Brian Carl saw at the time of his passing was still not the confident Brian we would all see later touring PS and Smile.  For Carl to have doubts about touring PS with Brian back in 93 would have been understandable.  No one could have imagined Brian pulling off those performances as he did years later. For Carl to have doubts about Brian being able to pull off recording and producing a full blown BB album in 95-96 and all the stress and pressure that would have involved is also understandable from a  brother's point of view and we have the benefit of hindsight seeing how Brian has progressed and produced great works in the studio in the 20 years since (albeit only once in the Beach Boys pressure cooker and look how that in fact ended, so maybe Carl wasn't that far wrong).  And finally, for those who had the opportunity to actually meet Carl, all you see and hear is accurate--he was truly a gracious and giving man and the Beach Boys universe is  a far worse place without him.
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« Reply #17 on: February 06, 2020, 05:37:20 PM »

I miss Carl dearly and wish he was still with us. The music and vibes definitely would be better and we really could use his level headedness and reasoning in the current messy situation we have. RIP, Dear Brother.
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« Reply #18 on: February 06, 2020, 10:18:41 PM »

Just my own opinion...i'm not an expert on the man's life...but I think the final years of Carl's life he was mostly focused on taking care of his mother, dealing with the after effects of the end of the Wilson/Landy relationship...and his own health battles. That's why he asserted less control in the Beach Boys, and it became mostly Mike's show. If he had lived, that may have changed again down the road. Or he may have eased his way out of the touring group to focus on other interests.
I would have loved to have seen a Beckley/Lamm/Wilson tour, even if it was just playing small venues like he did on his 1981/1983 solo tours. It would have been good for all three of them to escape the confines of their respective groups, and enjoy the challenge of performing some new material, as well as some of the classics from their past. Sister Golden Hair, God Only Knows, Beginnings, I Need You, I Can Hear Music, Does Anybody Really Know What Time it is....
I don't think Carl would be part of Brian's solo tours, though, other than a guest appearance here and there. I like to think that if Carl had been in better health in 97, he could have gotten the warring sides - Love vs Jardine - to reach a compromise, and continue touring together. I don't like the idea of a touring Beach Boys with Mike, Carl, David and Bruce, but not Al.
Now consider a third possibility - Carl and Al start their own touring group.
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« Reply #19 on: February 07, 2020, 03:15:54 AM »

I agree with what is written in this last post almost to the T. And I do think it would have been really cool to see
Carl and Al go out in a unplugged storytellers type of show. They were really the two voices in the Beach Boys to me live in oncert that stood out. Tough to hear them singing at sixties and seventies years of age about be true to your school and cheerleaders. Carl Wilson and Al Jardine solo story teller show would have been something else!
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« Reply #20 on: February 07, 2020, 08:02:18 PM »

I agree with what is written in this last post almost to the T. And I do think it would have been really cool to see
Carl and Al go out in a unplugged storytellers type of show. They were really the two voices in the Beach Boys to me live in oncert that stood out. Tough to hear them singing at sixties and seventies years of age about be true to your school and cheerleaders. Carl Wilson and Al Jardine solo story teller show would have been something else!
I think a Carl and Al show would have focused less on cheerleaders, school spirit, surfing and woodies, and more on music from the more 'adult' or 'serious' part of their careers.
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« Reply #21 on: February 07, 2020, 09:31:53 PM »

I agree with what is written in this last post almost to the T. And I do think it would have been really cool to see
Carl and Al go out in a unplugged storytellers type of show. They were really the two voices in the Beach Boys to me live in oncert that stood out. Tough to hear them singing at sixties and seventies years of age about be true to your school and cheerleaders. Carl Wilson and Al Jardine solo story teller show would have been something else!
I think a Carl and Al show would have focused less on cheerleaders, school spirit, surfing and woodies, and more on music from the more 'adult' or 'serious' part of their careers.

I know what you're getting at and I dig it, but I don't even think it's that the group had done so much of the early material live, but the way it was presented. Al still does quite a few hits on his solo shows, but the presentation is so much classier than the '80s and '90s Beach Boys, or Mike's group's versions.
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« Reply #22 on: February 08, 2020, 04:41:29 PM »

On that night 22 years ago, I was on the phone with a friend.  I had the TV news on with the sound muted.  I saw Carl's photo and just burst into tears.  It took me a full minute or two until I could even tell my friend what happened. 
My father had passed away only 6 months earlier, at age 53.  Justyn and Jonah are around my age.  I thought of them and how I could relate to what they must have been going through. 
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