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655371 Posts in 26184 Topics by 3725 Members - Latest Member: suitable_rasberry February 23, 2020, 10:08:31 AM
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Author Topic: Are The Beach Boys letting their fans down with digital only archival releases  (Read 3062 times)
CenturyDeprived
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« Reply #25 on: January 23, 2020, 11:08:21 AM »

I just need to add this: I am not a fan who needs to hear 69 different takes of She's Goin' Bald, or every concert from a  given tour (i'm a Dylan fan, but I did not buy the 1966 tour box or the Rolling Thunder box - i'm fine with having just one or two shows to represent those tours). So if the digital dump is equal to five cd's  and the physical release is just 2 cd's of that stuff, I can live with that.
There's only so many hours in a day. I don't know where some of my friends find time to listen to all the stuff they buy. It's hard for me to fit that listening time in as I am working 2 jobs where I am not allowed to play music; and my third job is MAKING MUSIC.

I agree wholeheartedly. The gazillion sessions of a particular song are interesting and cool to be able to hear, but it's not something I'd listen to often. If there were a physical released, I'd want it to focus on the cream of the crop, the most fully formed tracks.

Going back to your Dylan analogy, they basically had two versions of the Basement Tapes: Bootleg Series boxed set. You could get the six-disc complete version with EVERY TRACK recored, or a two-CD (or three-LP) version with the "highlights."  

All of this is generally true - I don't often listen to the umpteenth live version of the same BBs song being presented in multiple live versions from the same era on a box set.

However, as fans, we should still take the side that the more, the better, and be grateful for it, and not get blasé about it, because I'm certain there are amazing versions, be it alternate mix #7, live version #5, whatever you want to call it, where something unexpectedly amazing and of historical significance will come out. Stuff like The Gong. Weird stuff that has no business being released, but got released anyway (thankfully). The expression "Don't look a gift horse in the mouth" comes to mind here.

I'm convinced there's an element of truth to what HeyJude said earlier, that there's less red tape for digital-only stuff. And I think the minute the record company will have the mindset that "these copyright dumps all need to have physical counterparts", that will somehow result in less content coming out in any format. If it's even 1 song less, that's too much. Call me crazy, but I think that's a possibility. Who knows why certain songs get nixed from archival releases. Maybe at the 11th hour, a lawyer of 1 of the band members has some thought about something not being wise to release for whatever reason. Put more of a microscope on any project, as a physical counterpart will probably do to the *entire* project, I think you run the risk of that happening at some point.

In my mind, it's a bit analogous to the incorrect mixes that accidentally slipped out for the original CD release of MIU. In that case, it's better that the album wasn't popular, with a lot of eyes/ears on the release, and it's *good* that somebody dropped the ball and let the wrong mixes out of a few songs because we got some extra stuff out there which never would have been released. A bank error in our favor, Monopoly style.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2020, 11:19:58 AM by CenturyDeprived » Logged
Lonely Summer
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« Reply #26 on: January 24, 2020, 11:50:43 AM »

I just need to add this: I am not a fan who needs to hear 69 different takes of She's Goin' Bald, or every concert from a  given tour (i'm a Dylan fan, but I did not buy the 1966 tour box or the Rolling Thunder box - i'm fine with having just one or two shows to represent those tours). So if the digital dump is equal to five cd's  and the physical release is just 2 cd's of that stuff, I can live with that.
There's only so many hours in a day. I don't know where some of my friends find time to listen to all the stuff they buy. It's hard for me to fit that listening time in as I am working 2 jobs where I am not allowed to play music; and my third job is MAKING MUSIC.

I agree wholeheartedly. The gazillion sessions of a particular song are interesting and cool to be able to hear, but it's not something I'd listen to often. If there were a physical released, I'd want it to focus on the cream of the crop, the most fully formed tracks.

Going back to your Dylan analogy, they basically had two versions of the Basement Tapes: Bootleg Series boxed set. You could get the six-disc complete version with EVERY TRACK recored, or a two-CD (or three-LP) version with the "highlights." 
I don't think I ever listened to the six-disc set all the way through. our local library has it, but I was happy with the 2 disc version.
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« Reply #27 on: January 24, 2020, 01:50:11 PM »

While vaguely on the topic of physical media, I find it interesting that while there is constant talk and articles about the vinyl revival and vinyl sales increasing while CD sales decline, CDs still outsell them substantially, at least in the UK. https://www.superdeluxeedition.com/feature/saturday-deluxe-18-january-2020/
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« Reply #28 on: January 25, 2020, 05:31:29 AM »

No. Physical only for me. Even a burnt CD-R with artwork is better. I don't collect "air". I do consider myself a diehard Beach Boys fan, with all the official stuff plus extraneous, but digital is where I draw the line. So I'll just have to go without. I had hoped they would do physical for most of the archival sets, and I still think they would at least break even on such things. Much of the work that goes into a physical release also applies to the digital only release. Really it is just the pressing of CD's and the printing of booklets that makes for added cost, I should think.
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« Reply #29 on: January 25, 2020, 06:54:19 AM »

Really it is just the pressing of CD's and the printing of booklets that makes for added cost, I should think.

You have to pay a graphic designer to design the package. I’m sure you have to have meetings about how to package these things (jewel case vs cardboard sleeve). Someone has to think I about what pictures will go in the little booklet - also to make this worthwhile to fans willing to spend $$ on it, do they need to print a substantial booklet with detailed information? Or do they not include a booklet to save money (but will this action turn off some fans from buying it?)? If they do go with cardboard sleeves (to be environmentally conscious) then where does the booklet go? Etc etc. Then you need warehouse space to put the printed product, then you need to ship/distribute this all over the country (however that process may work).

I just think it’s a lot more work (money) than it would seem to be. And in the age of streaming would they even make a substantial enough profit on physical sales to make it worth it?
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CenturyDeprived
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« Reply #30 on: January 25, 2020, 07:30:31 AM »

No. Physical only for me. Even a burnt CD-R with artwork is better. I don't collect "air". I do consider myself a diehard Beach Boys fan, with all the official stuff plus extraneous, but digital is where I draw the line. So I'll just have to go without. I had hoped they would do physical for most of the archival sets, and I still think they would at least break even on such things. Much of the work that goes into a physical release also applies to the digital only release. Really it is just the pressing of CD's and the printing of booklets that makes for added cost, I should think.

And what if this inadvertently helps enable there to be less chance of future releases of rare material? I understand having the preference for physical, believe me I do, but as certain point there's something to think of called the greater good.

I had a similar attitude for a while, until I heard the words of Alan - on this very board  if memory serves - who was kindly imploring fans to support these releases by purchasing them, because if sales dry up, the releases will dry up.

I'm not normally someone who buys MP3s, and certainly not large quantities of them, but I supported the band and these types of releases by purchasing the Friends and 20/20 digital archival dumps, and I'm very happy that I did that. Even though I have all of the songs readily available on Spotify, it's good to know that they are on a hard drive for me to access at any point, and most importantly that I am supporting such great music coming out in the first place. And hopefully for that to *continue happening*.

I just think people take this stuff coming out way way way too much for granted. If this band's music really means something to you on a profound personal level, it's worth investing in these releases even if the format is not your preferred one. Ultimately you will still have the songs, more songs will keep coming out of untold historical significance, and that's what's most important.

Please don't confuse "collecting air" with helping to support important releases to prevent future ones from simply drying up.
I don't mean to come off like somebody who is lecturing anybody, but I feel really strongly that we should be thankful for this stuff, very much so, and do what we can to keep it coming. It's very shortsighted to just be stubborn, it's not gonna work out for the betterment of future releases to be that way.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2020, 07:42:59 AM by CenturyDeprived » Logged
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« Reply #31 on: January 25, 2020, 08:18:43 AM »

I take your point, Century Deprived, I really do. What I could do, perhaps, is ally myself with a tech-savvy and get that person to purchase and burn a CD-R for me. I'd then pay the cost. But I don't want my music on a hard drive. If such a move can in any way help future archival releases, I'd be happy to go ahead with that.
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« Reply #32 on: January 25, 2020, 09:22:49 AM »

What’s kinda interesting is that a hard drive is basically a CD-R with more space. It’s all ones and zeroes making your sound when it hits the speaker. A CD-R is a small hard drive that has it’s own case with a piece of paper that identifies what is on the disc.

I mean, I totally get why you’d want a physical set and I get having a preference. It’s just interesting to think about those preferences.
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« Reply #33 on: January 25, 2020, 09:41:13 AM »

No. Physical only for me. Even a burnt CD-R with artwork is better. I don't collect "air". I do consider myself a diehard Beach Boys fan, with all the official stuff plus extraneous, but digital is where I draw the line. So I'll just have to go without. I had hoped they would do physical for most of the archival sets, and I still think they would at least break even on such things. Much of the work that goes into a physical release also applies to the digital only release. Really it is just the pressing of CD's and the printing of booklets that makes for added cost, I should think.
Sorry to burst your bubble, but you’re wrong on several accounts.
#1: a CD is Digital. It’s literally just a really really really small hard drive, music is stored on it the same way it’s stored on a computer, or an iPod, or an iPhone
#2: CDs cost way more than Digital. First of all, they have to make the decisions on how many CDs to put it on. then they have to pay someone to design the artwork. Then they have to pay people to design it right up to the booklet. and then they have to pay a company to produce the case. Then they have to pay another company to actually produce the CDs themselves. Then they have to pay someone to burn the music onto the CDs in bulk. If a five disc CD set cells 10,000 copies, thats 50,000 disks. Then, of course, the shipping costs.
Think that’s complicated? Vinyl is even worse.
Plus, all this is terrible for the environment.
With digital releases, once the track list is finalized, all BRI has to do is upload the files to iTunes and Spotify. Much easier. Also, they could probably get way more music, because CDs can only hold so much
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« Reply #34 on: January 25, 2020, 09:52:08 AM »

The original 1967 - Sunshine Tomorrow that had a physical version was only 2 hours 38 minutes long.
The 2 digital only releases that came out later that year, if added together have 7 hours 3 minutes. I’ll take more content any day
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Mr. Tiger
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« Reply #35 on: January 25, 2020, 11:04:23 AM »

Exactly, a CD is just your lossless downloads served on a silver plate. The artwork is too small to really appreciate. With a digital download they'll often provide a high res image of the album cover which can fill up a large computer screen... bigger than your vinyl covers if you print them out on some nice quality paper!

A nice physical booklet is probably the biggest advantage to a CD release, but so few releases bother with this nowadays. CD players aren't even that easy to find any more. None of the new cars are equipped with them. I ripped all my old CDs to lossless and now play them all with ease on my high capacity portable player.

I do collect vinyl, though. That's how I scratch my physical itch when the need arises. CDs have lost their luster and utility for me.
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« Reply #36 on: January 25, 2020, 12:17:52 PM »

I have read that CD's have the best sound, better than your lossless. Wish I could find the source to bolster my argument.  At any rate, I don't want to switch on a computer to hear music. I don't want to rely on something like itunes or spotify, either. I bet I've got stuff in my CD collection they don't even have. I know I have an unpopular opinion, but I'd be willing to get a CD-R. Got some already for BB and Jan & Dean.
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« Reply #37 on: January 25, 2020, 02:38:11 PM »

I have read that CD's have the best sound, better than your lossless. Wish I could find the source to bolster my argument.  At any rate, I don't want to switch on a computer to hear music. I don't want to rely on something like itunes or spotify, either. I bet I've got stuff in my CD collection they don't even have. I know I have an unpopular opinion, but I'd be willing to get a CD-R. Got some already for BB and Jan & Dean.
CDs do not have the best sound. It all depends on how the file is encoded.
And if you don’t want to turn on a computer, than get a iPod.
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Lonely Summer
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« Reply #38 on: January 25, 2020, 11:18:23 PM »

The original 1967 - Sunshine Tomorrow that had a physical version was only 2 hours 38 minutes long.
The 2 digital only releases that came out later that year, if added together have 7 hours 3 minutes. I’ll take more content any day
I'd like to know how you guys find the time to listen to all that stuff!
I might have 3 or 4 days - at the most, often less than that - during the week when I can sit down and do some serious music listening. The rest of the time, I am on the road going to work, coming home from work, eating dinner, doing stuff online...
oh, and working and sleeping.
2 hours and 38 minutes is about the most I can ever sit down and listen to music anymore.
I had so much more time for playing records, cd's, cassettes when I was a kid living at home, going to school, etc.
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Lonely Summer
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« Reply #39 on: January 25, 2020, 11:20:36 PM »

I have read that CD's have the best sound, better than your lossless. Wish I could find the source to bolster my argument.  At any rate, I don't want to switch on a computer to hear music. I don't want to rely on something like itunes or spotify, either. I bet I've got stuff in my CD collection they don't even have. I know I have an unpopular opinion, but I'd be willing to get a CD-R. Got some already for BB and Jan & Dean.
My suggestion, if you have a stand alone cd burner - get a patch cord and plug it into your computer or lap top, go to spotify or some similar service, and just record the music onto a cdr as you are listening to it.
I mean, if you  really, really have to have the stuff.
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« Reply #40 on: January 26, 2020, 12:14:20 AM »

I have read that CD's have the best sound, better than your lossless. Wish I could find the source to bolster my argument.  At any rate, I don't want to switch on a computer to hear music. I don't want to rely on something like itunes or spotify, either. I bet I've got stuff in my CD collection they don't even have. I know I have an unpopular opinion, but I'd be willing to get a CD-R. Got some already for BB and Jan & Dean.
My suggestion, if you have a stand alone cd burner - get a patch cord and plug it into your computer or lap top, go to spotify or some similar service, and just record the music onto a cdr as you are listening to it.
I mean, if you  really, really have to have the stuff.

Thanks, I'll get somebody to burn CD-R's for me, I've never done any of that in my life. Well, what I have learnt from this thread is that digital only is the future, so I'll just have to get with the times. Wink
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« Reply #41 on: January 26, 2020, 07:24:00 AM »

No. Physical only for me. Even a burnt CD-R with artwork is better. I don't collect "air". I do consider myself a diehard Beach Boys fan, with all the official stuff plus extraneous, but digital is where I draw the line. So I'll just have to go without. I had hoped they would do physical for most of the archival sets, and I still think they would at least break even on such things. Much of the work that goes into a physical release also applies to the digital only release. Really it is just the pressing of CD's and the printing of booklets that makes for added cost, I should think.
For a "hardcore fan," you're missing out on some tremendous stuff.  The collections last year were out of this world.  You don't need to be tech savvy to burn a CD.  It's been common stuff for over 20 years now.  Don't deny yourself.
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« Reply #42 on: January 27, 2020, 11:56:16 PM »

I have read that CD's have the best sound, better than your lossless. Wish I could find the source to bolster my argument.  At any rate, I don't want to switch on a computer to hear music. I don't want to rely on something like itunes or spotify, either. I bet I've got stuff in my CD collection they don't even have. I know I have an unpopular opinion, but I'd be willing to get a CD-R. Got some already for BB and Jan & Dean.
My suggestion, if you have a stand alone cd burner - get a patch cord and plug it into your computer or lap top, go to spotify or some similar service, and just record the music onto a cdr as you are listening to it.
I mean, if you  really, really have to have the stuff.

Thanks, I'll get somebody to burn CD-R's for me, I've never done any of that in my life. Well, what I have learnt from this thread is that digital only is the future, so I'll just have to get with the times. Wink
I got my cd recorder back in 2002, when standalone cd recorders were very popular. I mainly wanted it so I could put my own music on cd to sell at shows. Back then, people were impressed that I had my music on cd. Now they don't care, some people don't even have cd players at home now. So I've had to get with the times and do the file sharing thing online for my own music; but for my personal listening, I still like the experience of sitting down with a cd or record and the packaging, setting aside an hour or so to just get into that album. I've even made liner notes and covers for a few of my personal cdr comps.
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« Reply #43 on: January 28, 2020, 07:12:17 AM »

Bottom line is that if someone in the year 2020 insists on only physical media, then they’re going to miss out on tons of stuff.

Rather than trying absurd ideas like running a line out of a Spotify stream onto something, and then burning it to CD, or getting a friend to do this, that, and other thing, it’s about a BILLION times easier to just download the “download-only” stuff yourself. There are a ton of ways to listen to digital downloads without “switching on a computer.” Most smartphones play the stuff. There are various portable iPod-type music devices (my 160GB iPod Classic, the most recent/final iPod Classic ever made, is the only Apple product I’ve ever bought, but I use it all the time; and it’s ironic because using an iPod Classic at this stage is like antiquated/old school status!). Many modern home stereo receivers with HDMI, etc. also have iPod-type inputs and/or USB input for a USB device or USB flash drive to play music.

On most new releases (including most of the Beach Boys “extension” releases), going digital download actually can get you *better* than CD quality with the high-rez options. I don’t even bother with high-rez, but if you go that route, it’s better than CD/lossless.

And yes, you can also download whatever and then stick it all on a CD-R if that’s your thing.

I think most of us still like physical product and will snag it when available. But at this stage in 2020, insisting on nothing but physical CD releases is like insisting on only watching something on DVD even when you have an HD TV to play Blu-ray or 4K. It’s like back in the late 90s/early 2000s Laserdisc fans insisting on not switching over to DVD.

Seriously, “digital downloads” are now antiquated! Most people just stream off Spotify or Pandora or YouTube. Even physically owning a flash drive or hard drive with digital downloads is “old school” at this point!
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« Reply #44 on: January 28, 2020, 10:54:23 AM »

I read a scientific article stating quite clearly that a good 20-24 bit CD remaster is the best, short of playing the mastertapes themselves. Wish I could find it, but it was fairly recent, like only a few years ago. Vinyl is not superior to CD.  And all that digital-download-streaming-smartphone talk - it's all Greek to me. No way is a smartphone's output going to sound better, I'm not buying it. It's all myth. I like technological advances up to a point, but my understanding from audiophiles is that music reproduction has gotten worse.

I have never even owned a simple mobile phone. I may have to, so that I can order from certain sites that need to text you. Also, yahoo mail is pestering me for a mobile number, they don't accept landline.

I thank you all for your input and advice, it's been informative and I will try to support the digital only releases in the way I explained earlier.
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« Reply #45 on: January 28, 2020, 12:38:47 PM »

I looked this up for a little while, I came across an audiophile forum post from 6 years ago that talked about 24 bit audio:

“All CDs are 16-bit / 44.1 kHz. They are not "capable of handling" 24/96. SACDs are not standard CDs, and instead are encoded with DSD on the SACD layer...but if the same master is used, they still sound the same. If a CD has ever been released with 24/96, then it is a data disc containing actual 24/96 digital files instead of a standard optical compact disc that does not contain digital files on it.”

I don’t know if any of this information is correct, but it sounds logical that an optical compact disc would not be able to handle the amount of information of 24 bit audio unless it was converted to digital. Thus I wonder: why would the ones and zeros on a compact disc sound any different than the ones and zeros on a hard drive? When used digitally, a compact disc is merely a miniature hard drive. They are both being translated from digital form to audio through your speakers.
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« Reply #46 on: January 28, 2020, 01:35:49 PM »

Okay, good point. Maybe it's to do with the hardware, then. A good stereo set vs. a computer or phone. I know you can hook up and all, but surely a good stereo set will be able to process the information better? I've read that mp3's are compressed.
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« Reply #47 on: January 28, 2020, 03:59:08 PM »

Stop worrying about audio quality and listen to the music. I guarantee you wouldn’t be able to pick the difference in a blind test.
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« Reply #48 on: January 28, 2020, 04:36:05 PM »

Okay, good point. Maybe it's to do with the hardware, then. A good stereo set vs. a computer or phone. I know you can hook up and all, but surely a good stereo set will be able to process the information better? I've read that mp3's are compressed.
CD’s are compressed too.
Almost all music is compressed in some way. Even back in the 60s, when Brian would take 8 tracks and compress them down to 1. You still lost some sound quality.
Truth is, both CD’s and digital downloads are compressed. But the average person can’t tell the difference. And unfortunately, there is no logical way for music to be released completely uncompressed.
The formats that iTunes and Spotify have is basically on power with CDs.
And, you may find this difficult to believe, but most music that appears on a CD originates from a computer.
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« Reply #49 on: January 28, 2020, 06:17:42 PM »

No way is music going to sound better coming out of the tiny little speakers on my laptop or smart phone. And I don't want my computer or phone being bogged down having hundreds of music files in it. I've got enough other stuff on it already - photos, resumes, applications, etc.
I like a physical music collection that I can see. I'm a very visually oriented person, and in the past, I have been swayed to buy this album over that album partly because one album had a more appealing cover. Some of that was lost when we went to cd, but the bonus was we started getting reissues with very detailed liner notes.
i'm not trying to talk anyone out of downloading or streaming (although with streaming, there's the chance that a song or album may be removed from your favorite site someday); if you absolutely have to hear every studio utterance of Brian, Dennis, Mike, etc, then go for it. Myself, I am much more selective. The Beach Boys aren't the only artists I collect. I am also a die hard fan of Elvis Presley, the Beatles, Bob Dylan, Rick Nelson, the Kinks, Chuck Berry, the Lovin' Spoonful, Paul Revere and the Raiders, Little Richard, the Everly Brothers, Fats Domino, Carl Perkins, the Monkees, Phil Ochs, America, Bread, Cheap Trick, Squeeze....I never have time to listen to all the music I want to hear, and that will be even moreso if I make it my goal to collect every cough, hiccup, and cuss word ever uttered by these artists in the studio and onstage.
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