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652772 Posts in 26083 Topics by 3718 Members - Latest Member: CarlWilsonFan101 December 10, 2019, 12:53:50 AM
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Author Topic: Don't Talk isolated guitars re-creation  (Read 844 times)
aeijtzsche
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« on: November 17, 2019, 02:41:26 PM »

Ever wanted to hear a fictional discrete multitrack guitar stem from Don't Talk?

https://youtu.be/s4pYeIx-QbU


Edit for clarity:  What I've done is performed my 25-years in the making, ultra-accurate transcription of the guitars as played on "Don't Talk" off Pet Sounds.  I am playing 99.9% exactly what Billy Strange and Glen Campbell played on the track, stripped of any other instrumentation (save some in the gaps so you know where we are.) . This level of isolation is not possible from the masters, because so many things were combined, so I am separating things out as if Pet Sounds were recorded one instrument to a discrete track of a multitrack master, by re-recording the parts identically to how they were played and as close as I can get to how it sounded.

I'm taking requests for more of this kind of thing.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2019, 05:05:24 PM by aeijtzsche » Logged
aeijtzsche
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« Reply #1 on: November 24, 2019, 04:28:52 PM »

So, question:

Do people just not find this very interesting?  Bad song choice?  Interesting but nothing to say?

I'm just curious, because I want to do videos that people like AND stimulate conversation, and I know it hasn't done the latter but I wonder about the former too.  There was one time where I feel like this would have garnered more attention, and in principle, I know that people are interested in this type of thing; see, for instance, Ably House Isolated (Example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6pmPWNgVcI) or Mattiboo (example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6j_FHmicFw) for examples of people doing "Beatles isolation covers" that are extremely popular.

Anyway, not digging for compliments or anything--and I'll continue on in my way regardless, but, I'd rather do stuff that people are interested in if possible.

Thanks.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2019, 04:36:10 PM by aeijtzsche » Logged
kennyhasbeenfound
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« Reply #2 on: November 24, 2019, 04:57:35 PM »

I thought it was very interesting- I will always listen to guitar interpretations of BB music.  The first time I saw your post I wasn't sure what you meant by fictional discrete.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2019, 04:59:12 PM by kennyhasbeenfound » Logged

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aeijtzsche
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« Reply #3 on: November 24, 2019, 05:00:14 PM »

I thought it was very interesting- I will always listen to guitar interpretations of BB music.  The first time I saw your post I wasn't sure what you meant by fictional discrete.

That makes sense!  I'll change it.
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« Reply #4 on: November 24, 2019, 06:37:57 PM »

I, for one, think this is invaluable work, destined to benefit generations to come.
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« Reply #5 on: November 25, 2019, 09:08:04 AM »

This is SUPER cool. Very grateful for anyone who does this type of stuff.
Very interesting, educational, and awesome work!
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« Reply #6 on: November 25, 2019, 09:45:49 AM »

Definitely worth a listen/view/etc. I'm thinking perhaps non-musicians might not recognize what the concept is behind these videos, and might be thinking it's another attempt at a cover version? These are different and unique, where the layers of sound and orchestration from the original recordings are peeled back and specific parts that may be hidden in the full mix are identified, transcribed, and recreated so the tracks can be heard and appreciated with fresh ears and a new perspective.

In industrial terms, I compare it to reverse engineering any product or device. You learn how something was created by first peeling back all the layers and identifying what went into each layer part by part. In this case, it's reverse engineering classic Brian Wilson productions/arrangements and Beach Boys records.

It's time consuming, and takes a level of skill and good ears beyond the norm. In the days before software tools and the like which made it easier (to a point), the transcription process on the more fully orchestrated recordings could be a long and tedious process. I've had to do a number of these myself, when my field was arranging and production, and keep in mind how Brian Wilson's projects like the Pet Sounds Live and Brian Wilson Presents Smile came to be: Musicians like Darian had to do this process in order to make these songs playable by a live band and authentic  to the original arrangements. They went through the same process as we are now able to see on H's series of videos, listening and transcribing bit by bit then recreating the original parts in real time. It is beyond cool to see and hear these parts come bursting out of the original mixes once you know they're there.

On a side note, there have been and always will be complaints and comments about content and quality on forums like this. Some seem to focus in on the negatives they see and complain that there is nothing good to be found here.

Well, to those folks, here is the good stuff. How about stepping up and giving this project a listen and commenting on it? Don't say the board is nothing but bad vibes and ignore the multitude of educational and interesting topics and projects like this one. Step up, have a listen, comment, show some support, put in a request or two, and enjoy the good stuff. (That last part is my 2 cents, product of years of hearing certain members and visitors complain about the 'content' here.)

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« Reply #7 on: November 26, 2019, 02:59:09 AM »

Saw this (wise words, GF) and just had to log in and comment. I think it's super what you're doing, aeijtzsche. I'm a bit shy of joining in topics where most posters have known each other for years, decades even, and really "know their stuff". That's why I don't chime in here much. Maybe others feel that way too, for better or for worse.

I confess I revisit these videos quite often. Besides being fascinating musically, they have a disarming freshness to them that makes them easy to watch multiple times. And, I have them linked elsewhere (a tip for others, perhaps?). "You're Grass & I'm A Power Mower" makes for an eye-catching slogan in any signature. Wink

This is surely the much-needed shot in the arm that Beach Boy Land has been waiting for. It's just a pity that that country is so fractured these days. Angry   

Lastly, at the risk of repeating myself, it's topics like these that in my view make this forum a must-visit. Smokin
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I'm Grass and You're a Power Mower: A Beach Boys Orchestration Web Series
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« Reply #8 on: November 26, 2019, 06:07:56 AM »

Apologies - I though it was interesting and neglected to say so at the time! In a way if reminded me of loops that play at different speeds - the guitars seem to go in and out of sync with each other, like indicator lights on cars in traffic.

Would you be interested in making a BBs chord book? Some of the published internet chords for many songs are horrific
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« Reply #9 on: November 26, 2019, 06:18:32 AM »

Apologies - I though it was interesting and neglected to say so at the time! In a way if reminded me of loops that play at different speeds - the guitars seem to go in and out of sync with each other, like indicator lights on cars in traffic.

Would you be interested in making a BBs chord book? Some of the published internet chords for many songs are horrific

Many years ago, I tried to get some steam going for a BBs transcription book, featuring full scores for either selected notable arrangements, or entire albums, or whatever (not likely the whole catalog, like that amazing Beatles Scores book...) but there wasn't really interest from the right people to make it happen.

I would love to do something like that; and you're absolutely correct: there are so many incorrect notations in so many places for a lot of BBs songs.  Not that is matters a whole lot in the grand scheme of things, but...you know.

It is shocking to me how even people at the highest levels (i.e. in the Beach Boys or Brian's band) miss some things or play some parts very slightly differently than the records.  Maybe they intend to mix it up for variety's sake?
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« Reply #10 on: November 26, 2019, 06:43:07 AM »

Indeed. Most chord sites have Darlin' like this:

Code:
        B   E/B
        Oh, Darlin',
          G#m7               C#7
        My darlin' you're so fine

        B/F#     F#      E/G#

But that just didn't sound right to me, and it didn't look like what Carl or Al were playing.

But the last chord, which I think is *the* chord that makes "Darlin'" as a song - sounded wrong. So I tried other stuff. The G# in the bass sounded very strong to me, but the rest wasn't an E. It's a C#m!

So if you play C#m/G#, it sounds much better... and I'm not even 100% about that!
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aeijtzsche
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« Reply #11 on: November 26, 2019, 07:46:55 AM »

Indeed. Most chord sites have Darlin' like this:

Code:
        B   E/B
        Oh, Darlin',
          G#m7               C#7
        My darlin' you're so fine

        B/F#     F#      E/G#

But that just didn't sound right to me, and it didn't look like what Carl or Al were playing.

But the last chord, which I think is *the* chord that makes "Darlin'" as a song - sounded wrong. So I tried other stuff. The G# in the bass sounded very strong to me, but the rest wasn't an E. It's a C#m!

So if you play C#m/G#, it sounds much better... and I'm not even 100% about that!

Aha, yes, what you're picking up on there is why we call it music theory--that chord is what it is and it is our problem to try to call it something.  The key things happening in that chord are the bass note, the G#, and the C# that you can hear in both the piano and the backing vocals.  It's part of the classic BW chord pattern (Which, video on later...)   That C# rules out calling it a straightforward E in first inversion, ie with the G# in the bass.  The notes in the chord do correspond to a C# minor seventh chord and certainly we could call it a C#minor chord in second inversion, ie with the G# in the bass.  However, one could also call it an E major sixth chord, ie and E6, again in first inversion.  The main question we seek to answer in calling chords things is: what is this chord doing?  How is it functioning in the music?  In Darlin, I would argue that this chord serves as a sort of deceptive cadence from that nice suspension resolving to what kind of feels like could be nice authentic cadence from the F# to the tonic chord of B--but instead goes to this ambiguous E6/G# deal--which is neat, because, since it's an ambiguous chord functionally, it makes the following chord sequence more surprising to further complicate the elongated cadence, now not resolving to the tonic yet again, but instead ceding to the ii chord for the verses.

Something like that.  In any case, for the chord you described, the notes from the bottom up are G#, B, C#, E, G#
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« Reply #12 on: November 26, 2019, 09:19:10 AM »

Indeed. Most chord sites have Darlin' like this:

Code:
        B   E/B
        Oh, Darlin',
          G#m7               C#7
        My darlin' you're so fine

        B/F#     F#      E/G#

But that just didn't sound right to me, and it didn't look like what Carl or Al were playing.

But the last chord, which I think is *the* chord that makes "Darlin'" as a song - sounded wrong. So I tried other stuff. The G# in the bass sounded very strong to me, but the rest wasn't an E. It's a C#m!

So if you play C#m/G#, it sounds much better... and I'm not even 100% about that!

Aha, yes, what you're picking up on there is why we call it music theory--that chord is what it is and it is our problem to try to call it something.  The key things happening in that chord are the bass note, the G#, and the C# that you can hear in both the piano and the backing vocals.  It's part of the classic BW chord pattern (Which, video on later...)   That C# rules out calling it a straightforward E in first inversion, ie with the G# in the bass.  The notes in the chord do correspond to a C# minor seventh chord and certainly we could call it a C#minor chord in second inversion, ie with the G# in the bass.  However, one could also call it an E major sixth chord, ie and E6, again in first inversion.  The main question we seek to answer in calling chords things is: what is this chord doing?  How is it functioning in the music?  In Darlin, I would argue that this chord serves as a sort of deceptive cadence from that nice suspension resolving to what kind of feels like could be nice authentic cadence from the F# to the tonic chord of B--but instead goes to this ambiguous E6/G# deal--which is neat, because, since it's an ambiguous chord functionally, it makes the following chord sequence more surprising to further complicate the elongated cadence, now not resolving to the tonic yet again, but instead ceding to the ii chord for the verses.

Something like that.  In any case, for the chord you described, the notes from the bottom up are G#, B, C#, E, G#
Now this is the kind of posts (and threads) that have had me semi-lurk this board for the last eleven years. Not only are we breaking down songs into their smallest pieces, it's being done one chord at a time. I absolutely love it. Thank you.
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« Reply #13 on: November 26, 2019, 09:41:30 AM »

Big thumbs up to aeijtzsche for this "Darlin'" chord breakdown, and everything else on this and other threads!
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« Reply #14 on: November 26, 2019, 10:03:14 AM »

Indeed. Most chord sites have Darlin' like this:

Code:
       B   E/B
        Oh, Darlin',
          G#m7               C#7
        My darlin' you're so fine

        B/F#     F#      E/G#

But that just didn't sound right to me, and it didn't look like what Carl or Al were playing.

But the last chord, which I think is *the* chord that makes "Darlin'" as a song - sounded wrong. So I tried other stuff. The G# in the bass sounded very strong to me, but the rest wasn't an E. It's a C#m!

So if you play C#m/G#, it sounds much better... and I'm not even 100% about that!

Aha, yes, what you're picking up on there is why we call it music theory--that chord is what it is and it is our problem to try to call it something.  The key things happening in that chord are the bass note, the G#, and the C# that you can hear in both the piano and the backing vocals.  It's part of the classic BW chord pattern (Which, video on later...)   That C# rules out calling it a straightforward E in first inversion, ie with the G# in the bass.  The notes in the chord do correspond to a C# minor seventh chord and certainly we could call it a C#minor chord in second inversion, ie with the G# in the bass.  However, one could also call it an E major sixth chord, ie and E6, again in first inversion.  The main question we seek to answer in calling chords things is: what is this chord doing?  How is it functioning in the music?  In Darlin, I would argue that this chord serves as a sort of deceptive cadence from that nice suspension resolving to what kind of feels like could be nice authentic cadence from the F# to the tonic chord of B--but instead goes to this ambiguous E6/G# deal--which is neat, because, since it's an ambiguous chord functionally, it makes the following chord sequence more surprising to further complicate the elongated cadence, now not resolving to the tonic yet again, but instead ceding to the ii chord for the verses.

Something like that.  In any case, for the chord you described, the notes from the bottom up are G#, B, C#, E, G#

Another one - the lead-in chord on the ... "post-chorus" is a A/B. Or is it a Esus4/B? The guitar players are playing an A (or even, A/E). The bass player's playing a B! So I go with A/B Smiley But then the next chord is a straight E, which makes the one before it sound very 'Sussy'...
« Last Edit: November 26, 2019, 10:04:41 AM by UEF » Logged
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« Reply #15 on: November 26, 2019, 10:20:48 AM »

Indeed. Most chord sites have Darlin' like this:

Code:
       B   E/B
        Oh, Darlin',
          G#m7               C#7
        My darlin' you're so fine

        B/F#     F#      E/G#

But that just didn't sound right to me, and it didn't look like what Carl or Al were playing.

But the last chord, which I think is *the* chord that makes "Darlin'" as a song - sounded wrong. So I tried other stuff. The G# in the bass sounded very strong to me, but the rest wasn't an E. It's a C#m!

So if you play C#m/G#, it sounds much better... and I'm not even 100% about that!

Aha, yes, what you're picking up on there is why we call it music theory--that chord is what it is and it is our problem to try to call it something.  The key things happening in that chord are the bass note, the G#, and the C# that you can hear in both the piano and the backing vocals.  It's part of the classic BW chord pattern (Which, video on later...)   That C# rules out calling it a straightforward E in first inversion, ie with the G# in the bass.  The notes in the chord do correspond to a C# minor seventh chord and certainly we could call it a C#minor chord in second inversion, ie with the G# in the bass.  However, one could also call it an E major sixth chord, ie and E6, again in first inversion.  The main question we seek to answer in calling chords things is: what is this chord doing?  How is it functioning in the music?  In Darlin, I would argue that this chord serves as a sort of deceptive cadence from that nice suspension resolving to what kind of feels like could be nice authentic cadence from the F# to the tonic chord of B--but instead goes to this ambiguous E6/G# deal--which is neat, because, since it's an ambiguous chord functionally, it makes the following chord sequence more surprising to further complicate the elongated cadence, now not resolving to the tonic yet again, but instead ceding to the ii chord for the verses.

Something like that.  In any case, for the chord you described, the notes from the bottom up are G#, B, C#, E, G#

Another one - the lead-in chord on the ... "post-chorus" is a A/B. Or is it a Esus4/B? The guitar players are playing an A (or even, A/E). The bass player's playing a B! So I go with A/B Smiley But then the next chord is a straight E, which makes the one before it sound very 'Sussy'...

THAT is *the* "Brian Wilson Chord" as named by Carole King among other musicians...the A/B and all it's incarnations in different keys. That's the chord that launched thousands of California vibe, 70's singer-songwriter compositions.

Basically take any key, find the dominant V chord. Use the root of the V chord as the bass note, then build the triad of the subdominant IV chord on top. You get the strong V to I bass motion if it resolves to I, yet you get the triad of that IV chord creating the suspended/open quality.

It's the magic chord heard in so many Brian Wilson classics, but I use "Don't Worry Baby" as the example when I'm teaching it. The verse progression could have easily been a standard I IV V, but by making the B major V chord into an A/B chord, Brian gave it that extra punch which made it stand out.

It's such a simple, yet effective tool for songwriters to open up their stock chord progressions into something more textural and open-sounding...and all you need to do is follow the formula above when your new song gets to a V chord.

So since the A/B is in fact the epitome of the "Brian Wilson Chord", I'd always call it A/B rather than Esus. The progression you described was one of Brian's go-to songwriting trademarks and quirks that made his use of that chord turn into a nickname when that chord is used. At least for top-notch writers like Carole King, James Taylor, etc.  Smiley
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« Reply #16 on: December 01, 2019, 06:01:01 AM »

this is really well done, interesting to hear as well!
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« Reply #17 on: December 03, 2019, 05:28:47 AM »

I've been poking around the board in anticipation of the hopefully-upcoming 1969 copyright set, and was pleased to stumble across this nugget. Keep up the great scholarly/performance work in uncovering the intricacies of the Beach Boys' music! Fantastic stuff.
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« Reply #18 on: December 03, 2019, 08:51:13 AM »

I've been poking around the board in anticipation of the hopefully-upcoming 1969 copyright set, and was pleased to stumble across this nugget. Keep up the great scholarly/performance work in uncovering the intricacies of the Beach Boys' music! Fantastic stuff.

Hey you!
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« Reply #19 on: December 03, 2019, 09:26:48 AM »

So, question:

Do people just not find this very interesting?  Bad song choice?  Interesting but nothing to say?

I'm just curious, because I want to do videos that people like AND stimulate conversation, and I know it hasn't done the latter but I wonder about the former too.  There was one time where I feel like this would have garnered more attention, and in principle, I know that people are interested in this type of thing; see, for instance, Ably House Isolated (Example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6pmPWNgVcI) or Mattiboo (example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6j_FHmicFw) for examples of people doing "Beatles isolation covers" that are extremely popular.

Anyway, not digging for compliments or anything--and I'll continue on in my way regardless, but, I'd rather do stuff that people are interested in if possible.

Thanks.
It's awesome. Thank you. Fascinating.
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