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Author Topic: Feel Flows box set  (Read 210252 times)
guitarfool2002
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« Reply #875 on: July 30, 2020, 10:51:49 AM »

But as I said before, BRI is 4 parties making the decisions, and since he was involved in creating the music contained on the box set, I'd say Bruce's opinion at least gets heard in any decision making process. So there's Al and Bruce both teasing the set publicly, we don't know where Carl's estate stands on this but factor in that their father was essentially the de facto producer and leader for a lot of these sessions and his talents and contributions would be on full display on such a set, we have Brian who I don't believe has ever blocked an archival set except in the cases where band members got to choose specific tracks, and then there's Mike who has a history of putting up objections and roadblocks on archival projects.

So you're suggesting fans should just write emails or social media posts to every band member, including Bruce, when some of those band members have actively supported and teased this set, without knowing either the who or the why of the situation? As I said before, fans would send Al hundreds of emails and Al would be saying "But I want this to come out too!" just as an example.

It feels like the energy is being deflected here, in light of getting more information, from actually targeting the reason why a set which is ready to go and appealing to that person or persons blocking it to a general fan response of "I want this, please release it!". Fans are not unaware of what goes on within this band, and why certain things have happened and continue to happen. If the notion is to take some of the heat off and just become stereotypical fans saying "I want this", it's deflecting the entire situation specific to this box set. If this set were not completed after 2+ years of hard work and dedication, that would be acceptable. But here we have something concrete that actually exists, and we're being told it's been shelved indefinitely...and we would like to know why it got shelved and who put the kibosh on it so that person or persons can hear what the fans who are ready and willing to drop over 100 bucks on it think.
Am I incorrect, or doesn't Carl's estate usually side with Mike?

You are correct based on what I've heard. However, I don't know if in the case of an archival Beach Boys release involving a label it comes down to a majority vote, or if each party has a single-vote veto kind of situation as far as the label is concerned where one "no" vote is enough to block something even after the full BRI membership signed on to support it. I'm going back to the PS Sessions example where by almost all accounts it was solely Mike's objection to the liner notes that blocked the original release plans for that set. I'm trying to make sense of it, but in that case (and seemingly the case with the Feel Flows box project) you had all members originally sign on and participate in the project up to setting a release date, but prior to the actual release an objection was raised and it was pulled.
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« Reply #876 on: July 30, 2020, 11:07:20 AM »

Thanks for the welcome and kind words. In regards to the archival releases not just being one offs - all the physical media I've purchased I digitized and made a gigantic chronological playlist. There's also a separate chronological "favorites" playlist that I'm always adding to, which goes to my phone so I can play it anywhere. It's 277 tracks and I went and checked the distribution and found that 109 tracks are things that were at one point, previously unreleased, and of those, 43 come directly from Sunshine Tomorrow (1 & 2), Wake the World and I Can Hear Music, so these sets are definitely getting a lot of love and a lot of play. I can't begin to imagine how it'll blow up if and when Feel Flows comes out. A number of these copyright extension tracks have play counts in the hundreds. Some of that is because I'm listening through my headphones and end up falling asleep with it playing after the kids go to bed. Others...I'm not quite at the point where I'm in bed all day with Be My Baby on repeat, but with how much I love this stuff, and with the lockdown continuing...I'm not far off!
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« Reply #877 on: July 30, 2020, 11:26:14 AM »

I've commented on Mike Love's last Facebook post two days in a row now.

My last one:

Hey Mike, still want to hear that Feel Flows box set! In fact, "All I Wanna Do" is "Add Some Music To My Day!"

Here's his Facebook for anyone else who wants to chime in:

https://www.facebook.com/OfficialMikeLove


I copied and pasted the same message 😎
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RIP Daniel Dale Johnston ( 1961-2019)
_______________________________________________________
Fear 2 Stop: eating all of Elon Musk's nightmares as he sleeps

"I've never heard such ear-pleasing screams before!"
________________________________________________
Free Feel Flows!!!!

Just to let you know, no announcements re: FEEL FLOWS will be coming via a fanzine.
If and when the project picks up steam -- I promise you guys will be first to know.





——————————————————————————————-

http://fear2stop.bandcamp.com/track/tricky-treats
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« Reply #878 on: July 30, 2020, 11:48:20 AM »

But as I said before, BRI is 4 parties making the decisions, and since he was involved in creating the music contained on the box set, I'd say Bruce's opinion at least gets heard in any decision making process. So there's Al and Bruce both teasing the set publicly, we don't know where Carl's estate stands on this but factor in that their father was essentially the de facto producer and leader for a lot of these sessions and his talents and contributions would be on full display on such a set, we have Brian who I don't believe has ever blocked an archival set except in the cases where band members got to choose specific tracks, and then there's Mike who has a history of putting up objections and roadblocks on archival projects.

So you're suggesting fans should just write emails or social media posts to every band member, including Bruce, when some of those band members have actively supported and teased this set, without knowing either the who or the why of the situation? As I said before, fans would send Al hundreds of emails and Al would be saying "But I want this to come out too!" just as an example.

It feels like the energy is being deflected here, in light of getting more information, from actually targeting the reason why a set which is ready to go and appealing to that person or persons blocking it to a general fan response of "I want this, please release it!". Fans are not unaware of what goes on within this band, and why certain things have happened and continue to happen. If the notion is to take some of the heat off and just become stereotypical fans saying "I want this", it's deflecting the entire situation specific to this box set. If this set were not completed after 2+ years of hard work and dedication, that would be acceptable. But here we have something concrete that actually exists, and we're being told it's been shelved indefinitely...and we would like to know why it got shelved and who put the kibosh on it so that person or persons can hear what the fans who are ready and willing to drop over 100 bucks on it think.
Am I incorrect, or doesn't Carl's estate usually side with Mike?

They've sided with Mike on issues relating to his Beach Boys touring franchise... and I can't necessarily blame them.  You don't bite the hand that feeds you, and let's face it, Mike has been a touring machine for decades and his operation has been very lucrative for himself... and BRI's other shareholders.

On catalog/music issues, it's less clear.  I know that there was the story about them breaking ranks with Mike over the use of BB music in the Love & Mercy film.  The Pet Sounds Sessions' strife predates the involvement of Justyn/Jonah, as Carl was still alive in '96-'97.
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« Reply #879 on: July 30, 2020, 12:05:54 PM »

Not to get too far off topic, but since the issue of the Love & Mercy music was raised...There was a situation where BRI and all members could make money on mechanical rights, royalties, etc from both the film and soundtrack and subsequent releases on DVD and digital...without lifting a finger, without doing any work, without playing under a tent in Cape Cod in the dead of summer and with 100% humidity...and Mike still objected.

So using the example of Carl's interests siding with Mike's touring issues on the table of BRI, the Love & Mercy soundtrack deal was a case where a "yes" vote from that entity was a recurring payday without doing anything, including for Mike who had ownership interests in some of those songs which would pay out in perpetuity, and yet Mike objected. So the yes vote from the Wilsons was a similar no-brainer unless Mike was able to convince them somehow to vote no based on Mike's personal hang-ups or whatever justification he was using, and obviously they didn't go with Mike for what seems to be a rare 3 to 1 vote.

As I explained earlier the PS Sessions box was indeed when Carl was still alive, but from all accounts it was Mike's and Mike's alone objections to the liner notes that caused it to be pulled and revised, which delayed the original release plans. So that seems to be a case of BRI originally giving it a yes vote, the project going through and being ready for release, and someone (Mike in this case) either complaining, petitioning, or taking/threatening legal action against the label and other related interests after earlier agreeing to the project through the band's corporate vote. That again is the sense of deja vu some of us had when all of this happened with the Feel Flows set. That's why some of us are wondering what the hell happened.
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« Reply #880 on: July 30, 2020, 01:25:41 PM »

I'd say, until or if more information can be dispensed on this one, yeah, I think we need to tell all the band members we want this set, and that it's good for the band and fans.

It isn't going to hurt to tell someone who isn't blocking its release that we want the set. Obviously, it's not advisable to accuse any of them of blocking anything when you don't know if that's the case or not. But really, if we actually knew it was a specific person (or persons) standing in the way, would it be beneficial to send accusatory notes to that person or persons? Or is it better to explain why this set should be out, and why its beneficial to the band and fans.

We'll have the rest of our lives for the postmortem on this (hopefully a postmortem where the set did come out). Right now the only thing that seems to have a chance to save the set is to sell (or re-sell) the entire band on this, that both direct and indirect influence/pressure will change things.

Really, if someone is getting messages saying "release this set", and that person isn't holding it up, maybe it will also help them re-broach the topic with the parties that could be blocking it.

It's easy to let all parties know we want this. This discussion we're having right now, here and on Facebook and elsewhere, where we're all saying how much we want this set, and we're discussing it with a passion, *that's* a big part of letting them all know.

Despite not having a ton of BB-related things to compare this to and thus trying to use the PS Sessions set as an example, the "Feel Flows" situation is really not similar to the PS Sessions situation. What's happening now I think is both more complicated in terms of some machinations, but also simpler in execution in that nobody seems to have a problem with the *content* of the set.
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« Reply #881 on: July 30, 2020, 01:31:24 PM »

Also, looking at something like the "Love & Mercy" soundtrack, the voting situation of which was discussed by Mike openly in an interview, perhaps fans can use some educated guesswork considering how other projects would happen or not happen.

The L&M soundtrack came out in what, by all indications including interviews, was a 3-to-1 vote (or a "3 yesses and thus the fourth vote doesn't matter" vote, however one wants to portray it).

*If* a similar situation played out with a later release that requires that final sign-off, one might guess that a 3-to-1 vote *might* once again be sufficient to make it happen.

Currently, "Feel Flows" is not scheduled for release.

My suggestion is letting all the band members and interested parties know how much we want this set.
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« Reply #882 on: July 30, 2020, 01:37:49 PM »

Maybe Mike objected to the box being named after a Carl song. Would it appease him if they titled it Don't Go Near the Water?
If the physical box does not come out, will they release the material as a copyright dump?
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« Reply #883 on: July 30, 2020, 01:40:44 PM »

It's starting to sound like the issue could be doubts around the size of the market for the set.

The issue could be the difference in returns on a 5CD box set with beautiful packaging and 'premium' inclusions (retail cost of over $100 most likely on probably a fairly slim margin these days) - I don't know this for sure, just guessing - vs. the returns on a digital only release where the overheads are greatly reduced, and the cost to consumer is less, but the margin higher.

Like I said in an earlier post, business is business, and at the end of the day the profits have to justify the inputs. So it's one thing to prepare all this stuff, proofs of labels, booklets etc. It's another thing to hit the button on CD pressing, booklet and box printing - that's a significant outflow of $$.

Maybe reassuring the people in control as to that issue will get this "over the line".

I've signed the petition FWIW.

Fortunately we have the recent precedents of similar box sets, TSS & MIC. Both of which I believe would've produced more than satisfactory returns. It may be just a matter of belief in the interest in the band in this particular era - after all SMiLE is absolutely unique in its legendary status - we can't really say that for Sunflower /Surf's Up. I believe that there is a strong core of very devoted fans who would definitely buy this, and with the right word of mouth/social media/ etc promotion there is also a much wider audience for this sort of box as well. It has the potential to perhaps raise the status of the band overall, and bring in a flow on effect by the generation of further interest in the band. It's sounding like this box is that special.

Now this is all very much just speculation form an outsider looking in, but that's the way I read what's going on. And although I am guilty of thinking/saying 'it must be Mike again' - that is just lazy - whereas more considered analysis leads to probably more accurate conclusions.

What we really need to assess the marketability of this set (and the potential flow on mentioned above) is a better understanding of how the recent releases, digital and physical have been going. We'll probably never have access to specifics, but a general idea would help.



« Last Edit: July 30, 2020, 01:43:11 PM by thetojo » Logged
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« Reply #884 on: July 30, 2020, 01:47:28 PM »

Maybe Mike objected to the box being named after a Carl song. Would it appease him if they titled it Don't Go Near the Water?
If the physical box does not come out, will they release the material as a copyright dump?

They've been publicly calling this "Feel Flows" for awhile. I don't think the title is an issue. Also, I can only guess those putting together the set, especially at this stage, would gladly re-title the boxed set if that was the hang-up.

As for the second question, my guess is that if the box continues to be assumed to be "delayed", an end of year copyright dump would not include anywhere near the whole contents of the box, but rather only the song titles that have never been released and need to be protected. Which, as I've said, would undercut things more than help, and might ultimately contribute to momentum leading us towards the boxed set being dropped.

All sorts of scenarios are technically possible. But now I don't think is the time to just assume that, maybe, if we're lucky, we'll get a small digital dump at the end of 2020 and then another digital dump *a year and half from now* at the end of 2021. Now's the time to give the momentum to getting the box out ASAP; this year.
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« Reply #885 on: July 30, 2020, 01:53:02 PM »

It's starting to sound like the issue could be doubts around the size of the market for the set.

The issue could be the difference in returns on a 5CD box set with beautiful packaging and 'premium' inclusions (retail cost of over $100 most likely on probably a fairly slim margin these days) - I don't know this for sure, just guessing - vs. the returns on a digital only release where the overheads are greatly reduced, and the cost to consumer is less, but the margin higher.

Like I said in an earlier post, business is business, and at the end of the day the profits have to justify the inputs. So it's one thing to prepare all this stuff, proofs of labels, booklets etc. It's another thing to hit the button on CD pressing, booklet and box printing - that's a significant outflow of $$.

Maybe reassuring the people in control as to that issue will get this "over the line".

I've signed the petition FWIW.

Fortunately we have the recent precedents of similar box sets, TSS & MIC. Both of which I believe would've produced more than satisfactory returns. It may be just a matter of belief in the interest in the band in this particular era - after all SMiLE is absolutely unique in its legendary status - we can't really say that for Sunflower /Surf's Up. I believe that there is a strong core of very devoted fans who would definitely buy this, and with the right word of mouth/social media/ etc promotion there is also a much wider audience for this sort of box as well. It has the potential to perhaps raise the status of the band overall, and bring in a flow on effect by the generation of further interest in the band. It's sounding like this box is that special.

Now this is all very much just speculation form an outsider looking in, but that's the way I read what's going on. And although I am guilty of thinking/saying 'it must be Mike again' - that is just lazy - whereas more considered analysis leads to probably more accurate conclusions.

What we really need to assess the marketability of this set (and the potential flow on mentioned above) is a better understanding of how the recent releases, digital and physical have been going. We'll probably never have access to specifics, but a general idea would help.



Having now put out numerous boxed sets, and similar (though less lavish) physical sets like "Sunshine Tomorrow", I believe both the team working on this and the band are pretty familiarized with the potential market/sales for this set. Also, the BB base is still FAR behind the majority of the music market as far as still buying physical rather than digital (and certainly rather than streaming).

Part of what this set is about is *not* going the cheap route. Part of this is about giving those albums and that era, and ALL THE MEMBERS, their due.

This boxed set is Mike's/Al's/Bruce's/Carl's/Dennis's "Smile" boxed set. And it could be the first of many.

What they need to understand is that *their* legacy and reputation is enhanced exponentially with this release.

Trust me, the people working on this set work on good terms with *all* the band members. They know they need to make this a win for all members, and they're also students of the band's history and realize such a set SHOULD properly sell the world on the genius of *all* the band members.
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« Reply #886 on: July 30, 2020, 01:56:35 PM »

I know this sounds loony, but what if Mike is holding this thing up because he wants to put "Big Sur" on his next solo album? Perhaps he doesn't want this out there at the moment so people could compare and contrast, as it's likely that the 1970 (right?) version would probably be of much higher quality.

Also, I do agree with hitting up Mike's Facebook nicely asking him if we could hear the set soon. I also suggest speaking Mike's language. That means that we should be peppering our posts with "fun, fun, fun" and "good vibrations" and whatnot. Obviously, I'm kidding, but I don't think it hurts. Lastly I think the worst thing is for people to attack him. I'm not sure what we are doing will make a difference either way, but I think being decent is always the better way.

Lastly, if we don't get the set believe it or not I understand. It is their music, and if the band themselves don't agree to release it, then we don't get to have it. As much as that stinks, I understand it. It's their art. Hopefully it all comes together though, because the few things we've heard about the set seem tantalizing.
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« Reply #887 on: July 30, 2020, 02:01:41 PM »


Having now put out numerous boxed sets, and similar (though less lavish) physical sets like "Sunshine Tomorrow", I believe both the team working on this and the band are pretty familiarized with the potential market/sales for this set. Also, the BB base is still FAR behind the majority of the music market as far as still buying physical rather than digital (and certainly rather than streaming).

Part of what this set is about is *not* going the cheap route. Part of this is about giving those albums and that era, and ALL THE MEMBERS, their due.

This boxed set is Mike's/Al's/Bruce's/Carl's/Dennis's "Smile" boxed set. And it could be the first of many.

What they need to understand is that *their* legacy and reputation is enhanced exponentially with this release.

Trust me, the people working on this set work on good terms with *all* the band members. They know they need to make this a win for all members, and they're also students of the band's history and realize such a set SHOULD properly sell the world on the genius of *all* the band members.

I think we're in agreement - I was in no way suggesting a digital release was preferable in any way.

As very much an outsider, but someone who has been following this band for decades, it's hard to know what can *realistically* be done to help this along.
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« Reply #888 on: July 30, 2020, 02:01:53 PM »

Signed the petition and shared it on Mike Love’s FB Page,

Here’s the link if anyone missed it a few pages ago (thanks again to Mr Wilson Joliet for sharing this)

http://chng.it/cQ68yLYssf
« Last Edit: July 30, 2020, 02:04:03 PM by ♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇 » Logged

RIP Daniel Dale Johnston ( 1961-2019)
_______________________________________________________
Fear 2 Stop: eating all of Elon Musk's nightmares as he sleeps

"I've never heard such ear-pleasing screams before!"
________________________________________________
Free Feel Flows!!!!

Just to let you know, no announcements re: FEEL FLOWS will be coming via a fanzine.
If and when the project picks up steam -- I promise you guys will be first to know.





——————————————————————————————-

http://fear2stop.bandcamp.com/track/tricky-treats
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« Reply #889 on: July 30, 2020, 02:04:02 PM »

I know this sounds loony, but what if Mike is holding this thing up because he wants to put "Big Sur" on his next solo album? Perhaps he doesn't want this out there at the moment so people could compare and contrast, as it's likely that the 1970 (right?) version would probably be of much higher quality.

Also, I do agree with hitting up Mike's Facebook nicely asking him if we could hear the set soon. I also suggest speaking Mike's language. That means that we should be peppering our posts with "fun, fun, fun" and "good vibrations" and whatnot. Obviously, I'm kidding, but I don't think it hurts. Lastly I think the worst thing is for people to attack him. I'm not sure what we are doing will make a difference either way, but I think being decent is always the better way.

Lastly, if we don't get the set believe it or not I understand. It is their music, and if the band themselves don't agree to release it, then we don't get to have it. As much as that stinks, I understand it. It's their art. Hopefully it all comes together though, because the few things we've heard about the set seem tantalizing.

As mentioned before, these sets don't live or die on one track. Tracks have been vetoed on past releases. If a band member doesn't want a specific track on it, it's removed and work continues. Maybe some lobbying/discussion back and forth takes place, but ultimately track vetoes are honored.

I mean, I guess if someone had said "no Heroes and Villains on the Smile box!", then maybe that would have needed to be negotiated as a rare case of a potential deal breaker.

But again, as far as I've heard, the audio (or other) content of "Feel Flows" is not at issue.
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« Reply #890 on: July 30, 2020, 02:06:14 PM »

I think being decent is always the better way.

 LOL




Sorry couldn't resist - I actually support what you're saying.
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« Reply #891 on: July 30, 2020, 02:21:59 PM »


As the official BRI consultant, I was asked my opinion throughout and consulted with brains and heart.
I got the box green-lit by the label.
I saved it from dying on the vine TWICE.


Howie your wordplay makes Van Dyke Parks look like a grade-schooler - impressed with what you've done there.
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« Reply #892 on: July 30, 2020, 02:45:38 PM »

I don't mean to sound like a dick here, but is everyone arguing over something the band is still working on? I mean, staffers have completed their work and word got out, but the band is still officially working on it. The issue here is not on the band side but in the hands of fans who are frustrated due to the inside info they have received. Seems to me it's fine to be frustrated, but otherwise it's none of our business. Or maybe I missed something...

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« Reply #893 on: July 30, 2020, 02:49:55 PM »

I don't mean to sound like a dick here, but is everyone arguing over something the band is still working on? I mean, staffers have completed their work and word got out, but the band is still officially working on it. The issue here is not on the band side but in the hands of fans who are frustrated due to the inside info they have received. Seems to me it's fine to be frustrated, but otherwise it's none of our business. Or maybe I missed something...


The set is done. Nobody is working on it. It has been sitting there ready to release for some time. However many pages back: It's mixed, mastered, liners and packaging and art all done. It just needs to be manufactured and allowed to be released. *All* the hard work has been done. All that's left is for the band to bring in some dough and bask in the glow, and for fans and music press to drop their jaws.

If fans didn't know about the existence of the set, they'd have nothing to lobby/advocate for.
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« Reply #894 on: July 30, 2020, 04:00:39 PM »

I don’t really get why labels still do physical releases, it’s bad business. Imagine the work spent on a project like this. Ad the unnecessary things as booklets that needs to be designed, artwork that needs to be designed, manufacturing etc. It’s such a niche market these days even for a band like this
Just slap a white picture with the band name and the title of the release on it as a cover and out to the digital world with it.

I mean, look at the biggest smile set that costs 131 dollars on amazon, how many of those can they really sell?

Don’t get me wrong, it’s nice that they do, but it really can’t be that great business wise?
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« Reply #895 on: July 30, 2020, 04:39:44 PM »

Signed the petition and shared it on Mike Love’s FB Page ...

If fans are going to share the petition to Mike's FB, it needs to be shared to Brian's and Al's FB pages as well, to keep a consistent positive tone about how very much the fans want this release. The idea is to convince everyone that there's a viable market and a strong demand for this box set.
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« Reply #896 on: July 30, 2020, 04:46:50 PM »

It's starting to sound like the issue could be doubts around the size of the market for the set.


Surely it still makes more sense to release it and potentially make a profit. They've already sunk a decent amount of money into the set by the sound of it (payrolling at least two professional audio guys for ~2 years, mastering costs). Granted, I'm not sure how the cost of actually pressing stock would compare to this for a huge label like Capitol - but I imagine they keep the expense as self contained as possible considering they own all the necessary facilities. Again, I don't know that much about it - I just get the feeling that they're at a point where it would make more sense financially just to release it in some form and have a chance of making some money back on what they've invested in it.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2020, 07:03:08 PM by Tom » Logged
CenturyDeprived
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« Reply #897 on: July 30, 2020, 04:48:47 PM »

Signed the petition and shared it on Mike Love’s FB Page ...

If fans are going to share the petition to Mike's FB, it needs to be shared to Brian's and Al's FB pages as well, to keep a consistent positive tone about how very much the fans want this release. The idea is to convince everyone that there's a viable market and a strong demand for this box set.


Completely agree
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Howie Edelson
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« Reply #898 on: July 30, 2020, 05:16:41 PM »


As the official BRI consultant, I was asked my opinion throughout and consulted with brains and heart.
I got the box green-lit by the label.
I saved it from dying on the vine TWICE.


Howie your wordplay makes Van Dyke Parks look like a grade-schooler - impressed with what you've done there.

How is this "wordplay"?
Who else is coming here and telling you about this box set and being as straight as possible?
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18thofMay
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« Reply #899 on: July 30, 2020, 06:05:33 PM »


As the official BRI consultant, I was asked my opinion throughout and consulted with brains and heart.
I got the box green-lit by the label.
I saved it from dying on the vine TWICE.


Howie your wordplay makes Van Dyke Parks look like a grade-schooler - impressed with what you've done there.

How is this "wordplay"?
Who else is coming here and telling you about this box set and being as straight as possible?
Don't worry about that comment Howie, thank you for your contributions here.
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It’s like he hired a fashion consultant and told her to make him look “punchable.”
Some Guy, 2012
"Donald Trump makes Mike Love look like an asshole"
Me ,2015.
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