gfxgfx
 
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
logo
 
gfx gfx
gfx
652772 Posts in 26083 Topics by 3718 Members - Latest Member: CarlWilsonFan101 December 09, 2019, 11:54:12 PM
*
gfx*HomeHelpSearchCalendarLoginRegistergfx
gfxgfx
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.       « previous next »
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 Go Down Print
Author Topic: Feel Flows box set  (Read 11258 times)
Aomdiddlywalla
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 166



View Profile
« Reply #50 on: November 26, 2019, 12:22:37 AM »

Cola ad version of Cool Cool Water?
Logged
Wrightfan
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 1604



View Profile
« Reply #51 on: November 26, 2019, 06:05:52 AM »

Cola ad version of Cool Cool Water?

Think that was more 1967.
Logged
mtaber
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 293


View Profile
« Reply #52 on: November 26, 2019, 08:13:30 AM »

Agree that it'd be great to include the airline TV commercial featuring This Whole World...

Lord, I remember seeing that on television and freaking out... If I recall correctly, Bruce was the featured spokesperson...
Logged
as1972
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 10


View Profile
« Reply #53 on: November 26, 2019, 08:35:21 AM »

Digital/Streaming is just fine with me.

...if the boxset is physical and it comes with some vinyls and a nice booklet...



I agree on the booklet, but it's a hard no on the vinyl. The vinyl is why the Smile Sessions boxset is way more expensive. It's a needless extravagance that should be a separate release. At the very least there should be a cheaper version without any vinyl.
Logged
rab2591
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 4971


"My God. It's full of stars."


View Profile
« Reply #54 on: November 26, 2019, 09:25:55 AM »

Digital/Streaming is just fine with me.

...if the boxset is physical and it comes with some vinyls and a nice booklet...



I agree on the booklet, but it's a hard no on the vinyl. The vinyl is why the Smile Sessions boxset is way more expensive. It's a needless extravagance that should be a separate release. At the very least there should be a cheaper version without any vinyl.

As I said I know that it's not everyone's preference...just something I would like. As for the Smile Sessions - that's kind of a boxset that had to come with a vinyl. I completely see why Surf's Up and Sunflower would be redundant to some fans (especially fans who have owned several of the vinyl releases over the years), but Smile at that point had no official release - it was kinda like them saying "finally, here is what you possibly would've gotten in 1967", so a boxset including vinyls made perfect sense to me.
Logged

Bill Tobelman's SMiLE site

The Beach Boys legacy is still being mortared to this day...it has a solid and unbreakable foundation of incredible songs that tower above most bands, yet some bricks are more brittle and ugly than others (even some bricks put down more recently)...thus is the nature of any entity that continues to exist. You are not defined solely by your good achievements in life, you're also defined by those unpleasant moments too. This law of life, thankfully, helps keep us all in check.
HeyJude
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 8539



View Profile WWW
« Reply #55 on: November 26, 2019, 09:43:23 AM »

Add me to the list of folks who don't need vinyl added to a large boxed set that already has the same content on CD. I'm all for releasing stuff on vinyl for the people who want it, but there's no reason that can't be accomplished as a separate release. That was true of "Smile" as well. I would have gladly paid $30 less to skip the vinyl in that set. Didn't get also release the vinyl separately?

There have been archival releases like the McCartney sets where there are like 10 different SKUs with all the different variations. Single CD, Double CD, single vinyl, double vinyl, huge boxed set, deluxe set, etc. I know a BB set, if we even got a physical component at all, wouldn't see that sort of thing happen. But if Capitol/UMe wants to sell some BB boxed sets, they're better served not bloating the set out with extraneous, repetitive content like vinyl that repeats what's on the CDs.

Logged

THE BEACH BOYS OPINION PAGE IS ON FACEBOOK!!! http://www.facebook.com/beachboysopinion - Check out the original "BEACH BOYS OPINION PAGE" Blog - http://beachboysopinion.blogspot.com/
as1972
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 10


View Profile
« Reply #56 on: November 26, 2019, 09:58:51 AM »

Add me to the list of folks who don't need vinyl added to a large boxed set that already has the same content on CD. I'm all for releasing stuff on vinyl for the people who want it, but there's no reason that can't be accomplished as a separate release. That was true of "Smile" as well. I would have gladly paid $30 less to skip the vinyl in that set. Didn't get also release the vinyl separately?

There have been archival releases like the McCartney sets where there are like 10 different SKUs with all the different variations. Single CD, Double CD, single vinyl, double vinyl, huge boxed set, deluxe set, etc. I know a BB set, if we even got a physical component at all, wouldn't see that sort of thing happen. But if Capitol/UMe wants to sell some BB boxed sets, they're better served not bloating the set out with extraneous, repetitive content like vinyl that repeats what's on the CDs.



Yeah, have a separate 3/4 LP release for the people who really like having stuff on vinyl. Make it like the Beatles' 50th sets and have Sunflower and Surf's Up (remixed if that's what they're going to do) and then devote the other records to finished tracks from the era which weren't included (IJGMP, 4th of July, WIBNTLA, I'm Goin Your Way).
Logged
rab2591
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 4971


"My God. It's full of stars."


View Profile
« Reply #57 on: November 26, 2019, 10:02:39 AM »

Well I enjoy having the vinyl included. Should've made my disclaimer longer in my original post - every time I mention the word vinyl here I get a diatribe back about it. Again I say, it's just my preference and to me it's not "bloat" and it's not "repetitive".

As for the vinyl release of SMiLE, it did get a separate release as well apart from the boxset. The smaller CD set also came with a button that the large boxset didn't come with. I mean, we could also complain about the 3-dimensional boxset artwork because that was completely pointless and added a lot of cost to the set. But I won't because that attention to detail made it a very special product. Likewise, the inclusion of the vinyl made it more of a special product too. In the 40 years that the totality of Smile was ignored by the band (in any official capacity - and I say total because we never got a set that accumulated all the sessions and songs together) I don't think an added $30 to the cost of a boxset that released all of this in amazing quality is worth whining about.

It's funny that every time a set is released we are told to "go buy it because it helps support future projects"....but apparently it was a burden that they added some value to the Smile set with vinyls (that only added profit to the project and thus helped support future projects). Some here get lambasted for streaming these sets while others complain that we can't spend too much money to support these projects due to supposed bloat and repetitiveness.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2019, 10:03:33 AM by rab2591 » Logged

Bill Tobelman's SMiLE site

The Beach Boys legacy is still being mortared to this day...it has a solid and unbreakable foundation of incredible songs that tower above most bands, yet some bricks are more brittle and ugly than others (even some bricks put down more recently)...thus is the nature of any entity that continues to exist. You are not defined solely by your good achievements in life, you're also defined by those unpleasant moments too. This law of life, thankfully, helps keep us all in check.
guitarfool2002
Global Moderator
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 8774


"Barba non facit aliam historici"


View Profile WWW
« Reply #58 on: November 26, 2019, 10:28:10 AM »

Take a poll of how many people around you buy new CD's. Most stores who did carry them won't even touch them now. I'm just putting that out there.

It's disheartening to me to see or hear local musicians making a new album spending thousands to get CD's pressed with artwork, inserts, etc...when most people simply do not tote around CD's when they're in listening mode during their daily lives. The preferred delivery of music changed dramatically, for better or worse, yet the CD is still being discussed. I'm just going by the dozens of musicians I'm in contact with on a weekly basis. Most of them stream or pay subscription services for mobile or instant listening, and those who make listening an experience at home choose vinyl and their turntable of choice.

Don't hate the players, hate the game...if people have an issue with streaming and subscription listening.
Logged

"All of us have the privilege of making music that helps and heals - to make music that makes people happier, stronger, and kinder. Don't forget: Music is God's voice." - Brian Wilson
Jay
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Online Online

Posts: 5739



View Profile
« Reply #59 on: November 26, 2019, 11:21:54 AM »

Instantly available streaming is a double edged sword; on one hand it's great to get everything immediately, but the bad part is that there is no actual disc and case to hold and no booklet to go through. I "cut my teeth" buying cd's at the CD store at the local mall, and consequently learning to love  many bands and styles of music. It hurt my heart to see the CD store close down for good, along with various other CD stores. I'm firmly stuck on the CD format of music, and probably always will be.
Logged

A son of anarchy surrounded by the hierarchy.
Mr. Tiger
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 83


View Profile
« Reply #60 on: November 26, 2019, 11:55:01 AM »

I neither have the appropriate technology nor the trust that a corporate entity will keep the music available (or affordable) in the long term for me to abide with streaming. I go with just vinyl and digital downloads (lossless for my favorites). CDs are an exceedingly rare purchase nowadays: only if it's a cherished boxset or if there's no other way to obtain the music. With the CDs I just end up ripping them losslessly and never playing the discs; the artwork is too small, although I will revisit a nicely assembled physical book(let) every now and then...
« Last Edit: November 26, 2019, 12:10:18 PM by Mr. Tiger » Logged
c-man
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 4423


View Profile WWW
« Reply #61 on: November 26, 2019, 12:13:18 PM »

Instantly available streaming is a double edged sword; on one hand it's great to get everything immediately, but the bad part is that there is no actual disc and case to hold and no booklet to go through. I "cut my teeth" buying cd's at the CD store at the local mall, and consequently learning to love  many bands and styles of music. It hurt my heart to see the CD store close down for good, along with various other CD stores. I'm firmly stuck on the CD format of music, and probably always will be.

I had the same reaction when the music world shifted from vinyl LPs to CDs! I cut MY teeth buying 12" vinyl at the local mall, and shed a tear when it became quite clear that the industry was "downsizing" it's album art presentation standard to fit the jewel case.  Sad
Logged
HeyJude
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 8539



View Profile WWW
« Reply #62 on: November 26, 2019, 01:35:57 PM »

Regarding the "bloat" adding vinyl to a CD boxed set, it's simply a case of adding needless *cost* to a set where all of the components are also available separately.

I guarantee you there are hundreds if not a few thousand vinyl copies of "Smile" just sitting there in that big 2011 "Smile Sessions" boxed set going unused.

Purchases of such boxed sets theoretically help fund future projects (how much this happens in actuality I tend to wonder), but the more expensive the set is, the harder it is for some people to buy. Again, McCartney doesn't bloat his "Archive" sets with vinyl duplicates of the stuff already on the CDs.

Certain bundles make sense, especially when there is little to no added cost. For instance, some vinyl releases (or CDs for that matter) come with a digital download code.

It's barely worth debating though, I admit. Big CD boxed sets are pretty rare these days.

I think BRI could still do some amazing things with nice boxed sets and physical *and* digital archival releases. But imagine how much *more* money they would have made doing this stuff 10-15-20 years ago when physical sales were still a thing.

But the deal with a Beach Boys boxed set is that they probably would need to make a boxed set pretty lavish to entice sales. But I don't think it would need to be unneeded vinyl. A nice book with photos, etc. That sort of stuff.

Logged

THE BEACH BOYS OPINION PAGE IS ON FACEBOOK!!! http://www.facebook.com/beachboysopinion - Check out the original "BEACH BOYS OPINION PAGE" Blog - http://beachboysopinion.blogspot.com/
Ram4
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 309


View Profile
« Reply #63 on: November 26, 2019, 02:43:54 PM »

I didn't shed a tear when LPs were replaced by CDs in the late 80's.  While I missed my album covers, I was fed up with dealing with vinyl, not to mention I couldn't play my records in my car so it was good riddance from me.  If I want better resolution audio than CDs I'll go for high res digital audio.  My Smile Sessions vinyl sits in it's box.  I should probably just give it to my brother.  He's on a vinyl kick these days.
Logged
rab2591
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 4971


"My God. It's full of stars."


View Profile
« Reply #64 on: November 26, 2019, 05:24:37 PM »

Regarding the "bloat" adding vinyl to a CD boxed set, it's simply a case of adding needless *cost* to a set where all of the components are also available separately.

I guarantee you there are hundreds if not a few thousand vinyl copies of "Smile" just sitting there in that big 2011 "Smile Sessions" boxed set going unused.

And I guarantee there are hundreds if not a few thousand copies of booklets from these boxsets that no one opens that just sit around. I legit have opened the Made In California book probably twice ever since I got it. And the second time I opened it I think was to retrieve a CD. Point being, there will always be something that certain people don't want in a boxset that we could technically buy piecemeal (hell, I could've done without the entire Good Vibrations sessions CD on the Smile Set).....or we could support a project (without whining about it) that comes with a lot of goodies all in one set.

And again I'll say, I'm speaking about the SMiLE set where I think it was a really good idea to include the vinyl - just because of the historical significance of probably the most famous unreleased album of all time finally getting a release...and what that vinyl release could have looked like in 1967. Having a boxset for Sunflower/Surf's Up with vinyls probably isn't the best idea, and I fully admit that, but it's something that I personally would like. In the future I'll specify that I'd want two boxsets, one for vinyl fans and one for not, only so we don't have to debate this every time a new boxset is mentioned.
Logged

Bill Tobelman's SMiLE site

The Beach Boys legacy is still being mortared to this day...it has a solid and unbreakable foundation of incredible songs that tower above most bands, yet some bricks are more brittle and ugly than others (even some bricks put down more recently)...thus is the nature of any entity that continues to exist. You are not defined solely by your good achievements in life, you're also defined by those unpleasant moments too. This law of life, thankfully, helps keep us all in check.
♩♬🐸 Sorry Entertainer ♯♫♩🐇
The Dr. of Wilsonomics
Global Moderator
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 10890


🍦🍦 Hi...how are you? ☮☮


View Profile WWW
« Reply #65 on: November 26, 2019, 06:23:39 PM »

I have no issue with the vinyl in and of itself. What irritates me is when it adds to the cost...I wasn't able to afford the Smile Sessions set (not the full one, anyway) for example.


Edit

My kid told me a little bit ago that she wants a turntable for Christmas and I sh*t you not wants to start collecting vinyls. I didn’t mention this thread or anything, I swear.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2019, 08:39:07 PM by ♩♬🐸 Sorry Entertainer ♯♫♩🐇 » Logged

RIP Daniel Dale Johnston ( 1961-2019)
_______________________________________________________
Fear 2 Stop: eating all of Elon Musk's nightmares as he sleeps

"I've never heard such ear-pleasing screams before!"
___________________________________________________


"I’d rather die than owe the hospital Till I get old/ I get adrenalin straight to the heart/ like Uma Thurman overdosing kick-start/ Anaphylactic and super hypocondriactic "

^ This fake quote brought to you by "Oyster Pudding™ ....the Pudding with the Pearl inside!"
rab2591
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 4971


"My God. It's full of stars."


View Profile
« Reply #66 on: November 27, 2019, 03:47:25 AM »

To be honest, I haven't been able to afford even many of the digital releases in recent years. So I completely hear ya there. The Smile Sessions on iTunes actually came out one day before the physical set came out - and it was quite a bit cheaper than the physical set iirc. So there were ways to get the 5 CD's worth of music without needing to pay the extra cost for the vinyls, book, poster, etc. And I admit that iTunes quality isn't FLAC quality, but to my ears through my studio headphones or speaker setup I don't hear a major difference (not enough of a difference to matter).

Again I'll say, there was a lot about the boxset that was over-the-top - heck, there were some sets that came with lights on the inside of the 3D Smile shop! But it kinda had to be over-the-top given the rare nature of this album (being one of the most famous unreleased albums in history). I totally forgot yesterday, but not only did it come with the LPs but it came with the 45s with their respective artwork on the sleeves - which I have rarely ever listened to, but I love to have in my collection. In one package we got everything a person would've gotten (obviously a different track listing and mix) in 1967 had this album come out then...which, I think, is exactly what Mark Linett, Alan Boyd were partly trying to achieve with this set. So yeah, unfortunately it cost more, but it also made it one of the most unique boxsets to ever be released (and all the CD contents were available to purchase digitally without all the added flair).
Logged

Bill Tobelman's SMiLE site

The Beach Boys legacy is still being mortared to this day...it has a solid and unbreakable foundation of incredible songs that tower above most bands, yet some bricks are more brittle and ugly than others (even some bricks put down more recently)...thus is the nature of any entity that continues to exist. You are not defined solely by your good achievements in life, you're also defined by those unpleasant moments too. This law of life, thankfully, helps keep us all in check.
juggler
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 563


View Profile
« Reply #67 on: November 28, 2019, 12:24:18 AM »

The recorded music industry obviously has gone through massive changes over the past 20 years.  The only real market left for physical releases is deluxe packages for super-fans/collectors.  Do places like Target and Barnes & Noble even sell CDs anymore?  I'm not even sure the last time I bought a CD... maybe 2012, 2013.  Vinyl has made a comeback, but it's a niche thing, also aimed at super-fans/collectors.  No one is going into to Target and buying Sgt Pepper on vinyl because they want to listen to the songs.  They've already heard the songs.  They already have the songs on the iphone.  The vinyl package is simply a vanity product-- a decoration to look cool in the owner's home. 

Of course, I bought the Smile box in 2011.  How could I not?  It was the dream release of every hardcore BB/BW fan for decades. But I've never played any of the vinyl though it certainly does look cool.  I did read the book, cover to cover.  I ripped the CDs once to my iTunes and returned them to the box never to be taken out again.
Logged
rab2591
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 4971


"My God. It's full of stars."


View Profile
« Reply #68 on: November 28, 2019, 04:59:18 AM »

Pretty much all of my vinyls are stored in a closet where no one sees 'em. I actually bought Ziggy Stardust from Target a year ago (and I listen to it from time to time) and it sits on a shelf mixed in with a lot of other vinyls, not being used as a vanity product.

I think those who purchase modern vinyls have various reasons for getting them - vanity is definitely one of them for some, but others have different reasons - personally I like the experience of listening to a vinyl. I find that I actually sit and listen to the music more closely: the music is my #1 priority at that time (because firstly I know that the vinyl will wear out one day and that every listen is a precious one, and two I have to physically interact with the record by flipping it over). And while this sounds completely stupid, it can be compared to watching a movie in a movie theater vs watching the same exact movie on an 85" flatscreen in 4K with Dolby Surround in your home - it's both technically the same exact movie that you're viewing on giant screens, but they are different experiences. Some prefer one or the other. And that's the way it is for me with vinyl vs listening with my iPhone. I do both, and do the latter much more. But when I'm chilling out and really focussing on music I prefer the vinyl. Just a personal preference.

Also, there are some vintage records that aren't available digitally that are available on vinyl - albeit none that you would buy in Target, but nonetheless, if I own a rare classical music album on vinyl (and quite a few vintage BB records that sound better than their digital copies), I might as well buy some other modern pressed albums to accompany it (mostly because, again, I like the experience).

Everyone is different and everyone has their own weird ways of consuming entertainment. Some people are completely happy displaying pictures in digital frames while others prefer print, even though they are virtually the same thing. Vanity is definitely a reason for some (and I admit I have displayed my SMiLE record before for vanity sake), but it's not the only reason.
Logged

Bill Tobelman's SMiLE site

The Beach Boys legacy is still being mortared to this day...it has a solid and unbreakable foundation of incredible songs that tower above most bands, yet some bricks are more brittle and ugly than others (even some bricks put down more recently)...thus is the nature of any entity that continues to exist. You are not defined solely by your good achievements in life, you're also defined by those unpleasant moments too. This law of life, thankfully, helps keep us all in check.
Lonely Summer
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 3223


View Profile
« Reply #69 on: November 28, 2019, 11:14:37 PM »

I know i'm showing my age, but I still role my eyes at people talking about "vinyls". I love records, always will; I grew up with them, it was always the ultimate, to sit down with that package, and devote the next 30 to 50 minutes with that album. I was one of the last to start buying cd's, and now nobody wants them, but I think cd's can be a nice listening experience. For me, streaming is when I just want to have some music on in the background while I am online, or doing stuff around the house. In the car, I don't really care about sound quality, because the music is competing with the sound of the road, the loud trucks and cars going by me.
These days, if the album is important enough to me, I will buy the vinyl - it costs a little more, but it's worth it. Less important stuff I will buy on cd. I bought the vinyl Smile Sessions because that was how I had always envisioned it - the album that was supposed to come out in 1967.
Logged
Peadar 'Big Dinner' O'Driscoll
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 921



View Profile WWW
« Reply #70 on: November 29, 2019, 01:19:07 AM »

Can people stop saying "Vinyls"...it's upsetting  Undecided

"Records"...that's the word you want  Grin

or if you must.."My Vinyl"
« Last Edit: November 29, 2019, 01:22:34 AM by Peadar 'Big Dinner' O'Driscoll » Logged

TheLazenby
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 548


View Profile
« Reply #71 on: November 29, 2019, 10:07:21 AM »

The recorded music industry obviously has gone through massive changes over the past 20 years.  The only real market left for physical releases is deluxe packages for super-fans/collectors.  Do places like Target and Barnes & Noble even sell CDs anymore?  I'm not even sure the last time I bought a CD... maybe 2012, 2013.  Vinyl has made a comeback, but it's a niche thing, also aimed at super-fans/collectors.  No one is going into to Target and buying Sgt Pepper on vinyl because they want to listen to the songs.  They've already heard the songs.  They already have the songs on the iphone.  The vinyl package is simply a vanity product-- a decoration to look cool in the owner's home. 

Of course, I bought the Smile box in 2011.  How could I not?  It was the dream release of every hardcore BB/BW fan for decades. But I've never played any of the vinyl though it certainly does look cool.  I did read the book, cover to cover.  I ripped the CDs once to my iTunes and returned them to the box never to be taken out again.

I was just at a Barnes and Noble that sold CD's, in fact.  Target, on the other hand, has very few.

Other places like Best Buy carry vinyl exclusively.
Logged
Jay
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Online Online

Posts: 5739



View Profile
« Reply #72 on: November 29, 2019, 10:19:27 AM »

The Best Buy near me doesn't sell music, period. It's all technology stuff. I very much miss the Barnes and Noble book and CD store near me.
Logged

A son of anarchy surrounded by the hierarchy.
♩♬🐸 Sorry Entertainer ♯♫♩🐇
The Dr. of Wilsonomics
Global Moderator
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 10890


🍦🍦 Hi...how are you? ☮☮


View Profile WWW
« Reply #73 on: November 29, 2019, 04:39:47 PM »

I thought Best Buy quit selling CDs period earlier this year, like around June
Logged

RIP Daniel Dale Johnston ( 1961-2019)
_______________________________________________________
Fear 2 Stop: eating all of Elon Musk's nightmares as he sleeps

"I've never heard such ear-pleasing screams before!"
___________________________________________________


"I’d rather die than owe the hospital Till I get old/ I get adrenalin straight to the heart/ like Uma Thurman overdosing kick-start/ Anaphylactic and super hypocondriactic "

^ This fake quote brought to you by "Oyster Pudding™ ....the Pudding with the Pearl inside!"
Jay
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Online Online

Posts: 5739



View Profile
« Reply #74 on: November 29, 2019, 09:58:12 PM »

I thought Best Buy quit selling CDs period earlier this year, like around June
I think it was a little longer than that. I thought they quit selling cd's about a year or two ago.
Logged

A son of anarchy surrounded by the hierarchy.
gfx
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 Go Up Print 
gfx
Jump to:  
gfx
Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines Page created in 0.704 seconds with 21 queries.
Helios Multi design by Bloc
gfx
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!