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Author Topic: Feel Flows box set  (Read 171800 times)
DonnyL
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« Reply #1625 on: September 17, 2020, 10:39:50 PM »

If there is so little audience for this music as you all seem to imply, then Capitol shouldnít waste time releasing it.

My god, you treat this band as if theyíre struggling indie rockers instead of being well-paid stars for the last half-century.

I refuse to be guilted over something like this. I believe the band owns its masters at this point (at least for this era) and could release them whenever and however and for whatever sums they want. They choose, out of cowardice, to remain with a major label and make the galling compromises that entails. They choose to be paid less because it makes them feel important.

But the label, at least in this case, isnít even standing in the way. Itís not concerned about streaming. It wants to release a lavish physical boxed set, of the sort that I and all of you would buy in a heartbeat.

How many of you bought the OCA double colored vinyl? Not too many, if the lack of discussion on this board is any indication. But I did.

No idea what this post is supposed to be all about but ... streaming isnít ďsupportingĒ the release. No one is saying anyone should feel guilty for streaming only. Maybe a person doesnít have the bread, or theyíre not all that interested in all of the material, or they just donít care. Nothing wrong with that, who cares man.

Itís also not about lining rich rock star pockets with extra Ferrari $$$, or providing evidence that youíve supported the group enough Ďcause you once bought an orange record. The tangent/subtopic is about Alan Boyd coming to the site to let us know that if the archive releases donít get sufficient $$$/support, we might not keep getting them. Clearly, this does not seem to be the concern with Feel Flows. But itís a relevant point - letís say FF is released and sells a lot. Maybe weíll get another lavish set. Letís say more people choose to stream - even though itís released physically ... we might not. Pretty simple.

Implying paying for a streaming service supports a release is the thing. It doesnít.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2020, 10:47:54 PM by DonnyL » Logged

Tom
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« Reply #1626 on: September 17, 2020, 10:56:27 PM »

Letís not conflate digital only releases with streaming.

That's true - digital purchase i.e. iTunes is great, but I suspect it's not an option favoured by many consumers nowadays considering the product is the exact same one that can be streamed for a much lower price point (or free in the case of YT music). There's very little incentive for the consumer, so I'd say the vast majority would still just stream it in that instance.

It's also the reason most smaller artists aren't bothering with CDs anymore - if it's free to stream anyway, then the only way to get people to pay a higher price point for something that's already freely available online is to have a 'deluxe' physical option i.e. vinyl with extra goodies. People don't go for the in between option
« Last Edit: September 17, 2020, 11:14:58 PM by Tom » Logged
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« Reply #1627 on: September 17, 2020, 11:11:40 PM »

The tangent/subtopic is about Alan Boyd coming to the site to let us know that if the archive releases donít get sufficient $$$/support, we might not keep getting them. Clearly, this does not seem to be the concern with Feel Flows. But itís a relevant point - letís say FF is released and sells a lot. Maybe weíll get another lavish set. Letís say more people choose to stream - even though itís released physically ... we might not. Pretty simple.

Implying paying for a streaming service supports a release is the thing. It doesnít.

Right on. One has to wonder if there's a theoretical way that we could go one step further than a petition and literally show our financial support for a physical set before the fact (kind of like crowdfunding). I follow plenty of independent artists who do stuff like this - they'll say 'We want to press 500 LPs, but we're only going to manufacture them if 500 people pre-order, and if we fail to meet the target everyone gets a refund'. Takes the risk out of the equation altogether and guarantees a profit. Of course, that sort of thing would have to be set up by the label itself so it won't happen - it's just a novel thought.
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DonnyL
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« Reply #1628 on: September 17, 2020, 11:30:18 PM »

Letís not conflate digital only releases with streaming.

That's true - digital purchase i.e. iTunes is great, but I suspect it's not an option favoured by many consumers nowadays considering the product is the exact same one that can be streamed for a much lower price point (or free in the case of YT music). There's very little incentive for the consumer, so I'd say the vast majority would still just stream it in that instance.

It's also the reason most smaller artists aren't bothering with CDs anymore - if it's free to stream anyway, then the only way to get people to pay a higher price point for something that's already freely available online is to have a 'deluxe' physical option i.e. vinyl with extra goodies. People don't go for the in between option


Interesting point. I donít really know the breakdown of demographics etc - just my own experience, selling and buying. As a consumer, I donít buy digital anything and I donít stream (unless you count want you might call ďsamplingĒ here and there via YouTube etc). In terms of selling music, CDs always sold more than digital download, streaming, vinyl, and cassette combined - even in recent years (I stopped selling CDs awhile back).
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DonnyL
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« Reply #1629 on: September 17, 2020, 11:37:57 PM »

The tangent/subtopic is about Alan Boyd coming to the site to let us know that if the archive releases donít get sufficient $$$/support, we might not keep getting them. Clearly, this does not seem to be the concern with Feel Flows. But itís a relevant point - letís say FF is released and sells a lot. Maybe weíll get another lavish set. Letís say more people choose to stream - even though itís released physically ... we might not. Pretty simple.

Implying paying for a streaming service supports a release is the thing. It doesnít.

Right on. One has to wonder if there's a theoretical way that we could go one step further than a petition and literally show our financial support for a physical set before the fact (kind of like crowdfunding). I follow plenty of independent artists who do stuff like this - they'll say 'We want to press 500 LPs, but we're only going to manufacture them if 500 people pre-order, and if we fail to meet the target everyone gets a refund'. Takes the risk out of the equation altogether and guarantees a profit. Of course, that sort of thing would have to be set up by the label itself so it won't happen - it's just a novel thought.

Certainly Capitol has no problem putting up the dollars, and will surely earn a handsome profit for all - Sunflower and Surfís Up are seriously acclaimed records and this era in the BB is ripe for the masses right now.. I bought a couple friends the twofer CD awhile back as a gift, and they were like, ďwow I canít believe this is the Beach Boys, how have we not heard this?!? Itís so goodĒ and on and on. Think about artists like Rodriguez or Nick Drake - unknown in their time, famous many years later. Early Ď70s BB are very similar - just waiting in the wings to take off when the stars align.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2020, 11:39:47 PM by DonnyL » Logged

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« Reply #1630 on: September 18, 2020, 07:03:27 AM »

Tom (or anyone), do we know how much Spotify, YouTube and Apple Music pay labels per play?

Per the web

Quote

Spotify pays whoever holds the rights to a song anywhere from $0.006 to $0.0084 per play. The rights ďholderĒ can then split these earning between the record label, producers, artists, and songwriters, which means splitting pennies between many parties.

This is a pretty good resource

https://www.dittomusic.com/blog/how-much-do-music-streaming-services-pay-musicians

Now on Spotifyís own artist site they donít say, and say itís affected by ďvarious factorsĒ. Iíd like to know how that works for an independent artist both on an indie label or on their own label. Iíve had months where I got paid more for less streams, for instance.



IIRC, YouTube or Spotify or Apple or all of them have a stipulation that for an artist's music to be available to stream on their services, ALL of that artist's music must be PERPETUALLY available on their service? Just wondering if indie artists would be able to pull their music off these platforms, and either only allow their music to be streamed from their own websites at a price they dictate, or band together and launch their own streaming service with a subscription rate that makes it more profitable for the artists. I'm sure this has been thought of before, and if so, there's probably some logistical or practical reason it won't work, 'cause I'm assuming if it COULD work, indie artists would already be doing it? What's stopping a new indie artist from having their music out on the big services long enough to get "known" in the general public consciousness, then pulling their work so it can only be streamed under their terms for a more reasonable profit?
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« Reply #1631 on: September 18, 2020, 08:59:53 AM »

The issue of what artists make via streaming and whether streaming is "supporting" the artist does actually still have NOTHING to do with THIS PARTICULAR case with the issue of the current non-release of "Feel Flows."

The preparation and planning for "Feel Flows" was not made in a vacuum. It was prepared for release within all of the context of the current music business/industry.

Further, as I've said a MILLION times now, those industry factors have NOTHING to do with the delays on "Feel Flows." The issues regarding the hold up on "Feel Flows" are totally separate internal issues.

How streaming impacts the industry and artists is a real topic, as is the usefulness or lack thereof of singling out individual fans for legally streaming music uploaded by the labels, but all of that should have a *separate* thread. There are many, many issues and ills befalling the music industry, but talking about that instead of lobbying for a set that WASN'T and ISN'T a victim of those industry issues is not helping anything.

In *this* thread, it is 100% distracting from the goal of lobbying and telling the band and all parties that we want this set. If the hang up behind the scenes had ANYTHING to do with issues of the eroding market for purchashing vs. streaming, I'd say so. That is NOT the case here.

Any people out there that would *not* want the "Feel Flows" set's non-release to be discussed would love for the topic here to shift to haranguing *individual* fans for streaming music.
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« Reply #1632 on: September 18, 2020, 10:04:08 AM »

The issue of what artists make via streaming and whether streaming is "supporting" the artist does actually still have NOTHING to do with THIS PARTICULAR case with the issue of the current non-release of "Feel Flows."

The preparation and planning for "Feel Flows" was not made in a vacuum. It was prepared for release within all of the context of the current music business/industry.

Further, as I've said a MILLION times now, those industry factors have NOTHING to do with the delays on "Feel Flows." The issues regarding the hold up on "Feel Flows" are totally separate internal issues.

How streaming impacts the industry and artists is a real topic, as is the usefulness or lack thereof of singling out individual fans for legally streaming music uploaded by the labels, but all of that should have a *separate* thread. There are many, many issues and ills befalling the music industry, but talking about that instead of lobbying for a set that WASN'T and ISN'T a victim of those industry issues is not helping anything.

In *this* thread, it is 100% distracting from the goal of lobbying and telling the band and all parties that we want this set. If the hang up behind the scenes had ANYTHING to do with issues of the eroding market for purchashing vs. streaming, I'd say so. That is NOT the case here.

Any people out there that would *not* want the "Feel Flows" set's non-release to be discussed would love for the topic here to shift to haranguing *individual* fans for streaming music.

And who said it did?

So this thread can only discuss the non-release of Feel Flows? And cannot include other relevant conversations and ideas? Such as Feel Flows being a copyright-oriented project, and the post from Alan Boyd about supporting such releases by purchasing vs. streaming? And how this may relate to future releases - which does in fact include Feel Flows?
« Last Edit: September 18, 2020, 10:09:35 AM by DonnyL » Logged

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« Reply #1633 on: September 18, 2020, 10:07:54 AM »

I don't wanna talk about streaming vs. physical etc as a stand alone - it's a boring topic, and I've been through that many times on other music/gear/industry forums.

What I want to talk about is The Beach Boys, Feel Flows, and how streaming vs. physical products affects these copyright releases. And how maybe, just maybe - this is relevant to this thread because if FF is not released - we are gonna get another copyright dump this year. And it's likely gonna be a bare bones one. And 2021 is a different year than 2020, and sales of these sets are relevant to future releases, including FF.

The policing of this thread is getting weird IMO.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2020, 10:08:51 AM by DonnyL » Logged

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« Reply #1634 on: September 18, 2020, 10:09:56 AM »

The issue of what artists make via streaming and whether streaming is "supporting" the artist does actually still have NOTHING to do with THIS PARTICULAR case with the issue of the current non-release of "Feel Flows."


I don't think that anyone thinks that, more of a case of conversation following a natural course and veering into related areas. The line at which something crosses from on topic to off topic is a blurry one. Surely no one here will take their eye off the overarching current concern of the Feel Flows box.
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« Reply #1635 on: September 18, 2020, 10:13:10 AM »

The issue of what artists make via streaming and whether streaming is "supporting" the artist does actually still have NOTHING to do with THIS PARTICULAR case with the issue of the current non-release of "Feel Flows."

The preparation and planning for "Feel Flows" was not made in a vacuum. It was prepared for release within all of the context of the current music business/industry.

Further, as I've said a MILLION times now, those industry factors have NOTHING to do with the delays on "Feel Flows." The issues regarding the hold up on "Feel Flows" are totally separate internal issues.

How streaming impacts the industry and artists is a real topic, as is the usefulness or lack thereof of singling out individual fans for legally streaming music uploaded by the labels, but all of that should have a *separate* thread. There are many, many issues and ills befalling the music industry, but talking about that instead of lobbying for a set that WASN'T and ISN'T a victim of those industry issues is not helping anything.

In *this* thread, it is 100% distracting from the goal of lobbying and telling the band and all parties that we want this set. If the hang up behind the scenes had ANYTHING to do with issues of the eroding market for purchashing vs. streaming, I'd say so. That is NOT the case here.

Any people out there that would *not* want the "Feel Flows" set's non-release to be discussed would love for the topic here to shift to haranguing *individual* fans for streaming music.

Also, guess what?

If FF is not released this year, it's possible it's pushed out further. And then further. And then - maybe re-assessed? Maybe re-assessed a year or two later with considerations for things like, I don't know ... sales and budgets? This is an on-topic tangent.
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« Reply #1636 on: September 18, 2020, 10:14:46 AM »

The issue of what artists make via streaming and whether streaming is "supporting" the artist does actually still have NOTHING to do with THIS PARTICULAR case with the issue of the current non-release of "Feel Flows."

The preparation and planning for "Feel Flows" was not made in a vacuum. It was prepared for release within all of the context of the current music business/industry.

Further, as I've said a MILLION times now, those industry factors have NOTHING to do with the delays on "Feel Flows." The issues regarding the hold up on "Feel Flows" are totally separate internal issues.

How streaming impacts the industry and artists is a real topic, as is the usefulness or lack thereof of singling out individual fans for legally streaming music uploaded by the labels, but all of that should have a *separate* thread. There are many, many issues and ills befalling the music industry, but talking about that instead of lobbying for a set that WASN'T and ISN'T a victim of those industry issues is not helping anything.

In *this* thread, it is 100% distracting from the goal of lobbying and telling the band and all parties that we want this set. If the hang up behind the scenes had ANYTHING to do with issues of the eroding market for purchashing vs. streaming, I'd say so. That is NOT the case here.

Any people out there that would *not* want the "Feel Flows" set's non-release to be discussed would love for the topic here to shift to haranguing *individual* fans for streaming music.

So this thread can only discuss the non-release of Feel Flows? And cannot include other relevant conversations and ideas? Such as Feel Flows being a copyright-oriented project, and the post from Alan Boyd about supporting such releases by purchasing vs. streaming? And how this may relate to future releases - which does in fact include Feel Flows?

I'm not the moderator, so I can't answer that. If "Feel Flows" were announced for release, then the question of HOW to purchase it or listen to it would seem more worth discussing *right now*. But right now we're trying to convince them to release the set, so getting bogged down in pages of trying to guilt one or two fans for streaming music seems counterproductive.

The stuff you're talking about isn't any more germane to "Feel Flows" than the myriad of other music industry issues.

Discussing purchasing vs. streaming is an interesting topic (I have plenty of thoughts myself), so regardless of what's "allowed", I think it would make sense to start another thread, because right now we're talking about THAT instead of talking about why the set should be released.

It's ridiculous in my view to let a few people's fixation on this "streaming isn't supporting the artists" issues bog down a thread that really needs to focus on lobbying for the release of the set.
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« Reply #1637 on: September 18, 2020, 10:20:41 AM »

Also, guess what?

If FF is not released this year, it's possible it's pushed out further. And then further. And then - maybe re-assessed? Maybe re-assessed a year or two later with considerations for things like, I don't know ... sales and budgets? This is an on-topic tangent.

Dude, talk about whatever you want. I'm only suggesting this is a weighty and big enough topic that it warrants another thread.

Of course all of this is various shades of "on topic".

I personally think fixating on this particular issue is MISSING THE POINT of what's going on *right now*. It's literally cart-before-the-horse stuff.

The delays currently happening have ZERO to do with any of this. Sure, if the set IS RELEASED, then all those other issues become more germane.

Maybe that's the best way to put it: My feeling is that it makes a MILLION times more sense to talk about the streaming vs. purchasing issue *after* we get this "Feel Flows" set released.
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« Reply #1638 on: September 18, 2020, 10:25:58 AM »

The issue of what artists make via streaming and whether streaming is "supporting" the artist does actually still have NOTHING to do with THIS PARTICULAR case with the issue of the current non-release of "Feel Flows."

The preparation and planning for "Feel Flows" was not made in a vacuum. It was prepared for release within all of the context of the current music business/industry.

Further, as I've said a MILLION times now, those industry factors have NOTHING to do with the delays on "Feel Flows." The issues regarding the hold up on "Feel Flows" are totally separate internal issues.

How streaming impacts the industry and artists is a real topic, as is the usefulness or lack thereof of singling out individual fans for legally streaming music uploaded by the labels, but all of that should have a *separate* thread. There are many, many issues and ills befalling the music industry, but talking about that instead of lobbying for a set that WASN'T and ISN'T a victim of those industry issues is not helping anything.

In *this* thread, it is 100% distracting from the goal of lobbying and telling the band and all parties that we want this set. If the hang up behind the scenes had ANYTHING to do with issues of the eroding market for purchashing vs. streaming, I'd say so. That is NOT the case here.

Any people out there that would *not* want the "Feel Flows" set's non-release to be discussed would love for the topic here to shift to haranguing *individual* fans for streaming music.

So this thread can only discuss the non-release of Feel Flows? And cannot include other relevant conversations and ideas? Such as Feel Flows being a copyright-oriented project, and the post from Alan Boyd about supporting such releases by purchasing vs. streaming? And how this may relate to future releases - which does in fact include Feel Flows?

I'm not the moderator, so I can't answer that. If "Feel Flows" were announced for release, then the question of HOW to purchase it or listen to it would seem more worth discussing *right now*. But right now we're trying to convince them to release the set, so getting bogged down in pages of trying to guilt one or two fans for streaming music seems counterproductive.

The stuff you're talking about isn't any more germane to "Feel Flows" than the myriad of other music industry issues.

Discussing purchasing vs. streaming is an interesting topic (I have plenty of thoughts myself), so regardless of what's "allowed", I think it would make sense to start another thread, because right now we're talking about THAT instead of talking about why the set should be released.

It's ridiculous in my view to let a few people's fixation on this "streaming isn't supporting the artists" issues bog down a thread that really needs to focus on lobbying for the release of the set.

Well you keep moving the target.

I'm talking about Alan Boyd's post - which is interesting and relevant IMO - letting fans know that lack of purchasing of the copyright sets threatens the continuation of the sets. Regardless of the drama surrounding how that post came about, and how it was introduced into this thread (I'm not participating in that part), I think that is valid and legit.

It's particularly valid in the scenario in which FF is released as a deluxe box set but maybe doesn't sell as much as expected because everyone is streaming it. Then maybe we don't get another lavish set, and just get basic dumps with bare minimum. I am personally most looking forward to a 1976-era set tbh. And I would wish that that particular set is a multi-disc physical box, vinyl, etc.

So what is the big conspiracy here? I don't see how a thread that becomes a circle jerk of "I really want FF to come out!" is really any more helpful than an active conversation with a natural flow. What exactly, in your opinion, should people be discussing here?
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« Reply #1639 on: September 18, 2020, 10:28:48 AM »


I'm not the moderator, so I can't answer that.

Okay then


Dude, talk about whatever you want.

And I will ... in this thread
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« Reply #1640 on: September 18, 2020, 10:58:53 AM »

The issue of what artists make via streaming and whether streaming is "supporting" the artist does actually still have NOTHING to do with THIS PARTICULAR case with the issue of the current non-release of "Feel Flows."

The preparation and planning for "Feel Flows" was not made in a vacuum. It was prepared for release within all of the context of the current music business/industry.

Further, as I've said a MILLION times now, those industry factors have NOTHING to do with the delays on "Feel Flows." The issues regarding the hold up on "Feel Flows" are totally separate internal issues.

How streaming impacts the industry and artists is a real topic, as is the usefulness or lack thereof of singling out individual fans for legally streaming music uploaded by the labels, but all of that should have a *separate* thread. There are many, many issues and ills befalling the music industry, but talking about that instead of lobbying for a set that WASN'T and ISN'T a victim of those industry issues is not helping anything.

In *this* thread, it is 100% distracting from the goal of lobbying and telling the band and all parties that we want this set. If the hang up behind the scenes had ANYTHING to do with issues of the eroding market for purchashing vs. streaming, I'd say so. That is NOT the case here.

Any people out there that would *not* want the "Feel Flows" set's non-release to be discussed would love for the topic here to shift to haranguing *individual* fans for streaming music.

So this thread can only discuss the non-release of Feel Flows? And cannot include other relevant conversations and ideas? Such as Feel Flows being a copyright-oriented project, and the post from Alan Boyd about supporting such releases by purchasing vs. streaming? And how this may relate to future releases - which does in fact include Feel Flows?

I'm not the moderator, so I can't answer that. If "Feel Flows" were announced for release, then the question of HOW to purchase it or listen to it would seem more worth discussing *right now*. But right now we're trying to convince them to release the set, so getting bogged down in pages of trying to guilt one or two fans for streaming music seems counterproductive.

The stuff you're talking about isn't any more germane to "Feel Flows" than the myriad of other music industry issues.

Discussing purchasing vs. streaming is an interesting topic (I have plenty of thoughts myself), so regardless of what's "allowed", I think it would make sense to start another thread, because right now we're talking about THAT instead of talking about why the set should be released.

It's ridiculous in my view to let a few people's fixation on this "streaming isn't supporting the artists" issues bog down a thread that really needs to focus on lobbying for the release of the set.

Well you keep moving the target.

I'm talking about Alan Boyd's post - which is interesting and relevant IMO - letting fans know that lack of purchasing of the copyright sets threatens the continuation of the sets. Regardless of the drama surrounding how that post came about, and how it was introduced into this thread (I'm not participating in that part), I think that is valid and legit.

It's particularly valid in the scenario in which FF is released as a deluxe box set but maybe doesn't sell as much as expected because everyone is streaming it. Then maybe we don't get another lavish set, and just get basic dumps with bare minimum. I am personally most looking forward to a 1976-era set tbh. And I would wish that that particular set is a multi-disc physical box, vinyl, etc.

So what is the big conspiracy here? I don't see how a thread that becomes a circle jerk of "I really want FF to come out!" is really any more helpful than an active conversation with a natural flow. What exactly, in your opinion, should people be discussing here?

The point in bold:

In this specific case, what is still being lost sometimes in the discussion is that the Feel Flows set was approved, given the green light, worked on, completed, and is now sitting that way without a projected release date. Obviously if it got that far in the process, the possible lack of sales and support was not an issue, the possible lack of support and sales due to digital streaming isn't an issue, and currently those issues are not holding up the set. We've been told by people directly involved that the *label wants it*.

So any issues going back to 2018 don't seem to have been an issue here if the set was originally approved, the project was completed, and the label wants it. And we're told the issues from 2018 that were resurrected through whatever ulterior motives were at play had nothing to do with this. Does anything more need to be said?

Of course it's important for fans to support and buy such material - You currently have 1,400 of them on a petition saying they'd support it and buy it, and you have people here posting repeatedly that they support and buy it.

I guess I don't understand why a series of posts from 2018 continues to be an issue when all of the support and willingness to buy this set has been demonstrated over and over again, and all the names on that petition and writing their thoughts here back it up.

If more voices in support of this are needed, then take it to other media outlets beyond the fan base. It was great to see Joel give it a good write-up in his publication. The fan base is already on board. We've been repeatedly saying we're on board for weeks. The petition is still getting signatures saying "we're on board".

I don't think the issue is any lack of fan support at this point. I don't think it ever was to be honest, minus those stunts pulled earlier this week trying and failing to suggest otherwise. The fans, the label, and if social media is any indication, several principles directly involved are on board with this set.

I think most people who know about the existence of this completed set have already signed the petition, or posted here in support. The fans are speaking loudly. If that's not enough, get it into the hands of the online music press.

Regarding streaming versus physical product, I wrote some of my thoughts in a separate topic. Anyone is welcome to do the same. I don't think, in my own personal opinion, that trying to get into the feasibility of streaming versus physical product carries much weight in 2020 especially when that delivery system has been in place now for years. The only solution to this dilemma would be to restrict all streaming purchases and limit releases to only physical product, and I think that wouldn't make sense in the simplest business terms to wipe out all of that potential revenue over aesthetics. People who want the physical product will buy it, people who do not buy physical product will pay to stream it. As long as the music gets out there to people who want it, and revenue is collected from doing it, they can coexist. And if the system in place is the issue, where new releases are available to stream, it's an issue far beyond the fans' reach to where the labels would have to be convinced to cut off streaming for their artists. I really can't see anything like that with big labels and major artists involved happening.

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« Reply #1641 on: September 18, 2020, 11:17:41 AM »

Perhaps the topic does deserve its own thread - mostly because it's a big enough topic to warrant it's own thread, but also because regardless of the hypothetical connection the current topic has with Feel Flows, it's somewhat irrelevant to talk about the possible sales of a boxset that isn't even currently scheduled to be on sale at all.
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« Reply #1642 on: September 18, 2020, 11:35:38 AM »

I'm of the belief that some people are legitimately "in the know" about the reasons for the set's holdup - at least this has been hinted to by some posts indicating certainty (not hunches) of what's *not* causing the holdup. I don't think anyone would allude to things like that with certainty unless they had some certainty.

So I concur that streaming type issues should be taken off the table for this thread - I too would hate to give anyone who actually desires the set to NOT be released any shot in the arm to their heinous desires by us fans getting this thread bogged down on what appears to be an irrelevant tangent.

(Not that the streaming topic isn't interesting in and of itself, but yeah if it's not what's happening here, then it just becomes a distraction). If I knew what I as a fan could do to help the situation, I'd do it in a heartbeat (and I wish there was a pamphlet that concerned fans could receive that would outline steps of what we can do - or can avoid doing - to perhaps help even the tiniest bit to move the dial on FF), but I feel pretty confident that talking about what it seems is *not* the reason is counterproductive in this thread, since distractions are counterproductive, IMHO. I say all of that respectfully.

My hunch (and that's all it is, is a strong hunch) is that Mike Love and his antics in some form are behind this state we're in. To think otherwise is to ignore some circumstantial evidence, plus ignore some past similar holdups, and think that all of that is just mere coincidence - do some people think that? 
« Last Edit: September 18, 2020, 11:40:46 AM by CenturyDeprived » Logged
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« Reply #1643 on: September 18, 2020, 11:39:33 AM »

The issue of what artists make via streaming and whether streaming is "supporting" the artist does actually still have NOTHING to do with THIS PARTICULAR case with the issue of the current non-release of "Feel Flows."

The preparation and planning for "Feel Flows" was not made in a vacuum. It was prepared for release within all of the context of the current music business/industry.

Further, as I've said a MILLION times now, those industry factors have NOTHING to do with the delays on "Feel Flows." The issues regarding the hold up on "Feel Flows" are totally separate internal issues.

How streaming impacts the industry and artists is a real topic, as is the usefulness or lack thereof of singling out individual fans for legally streaming music uploaded by the labels, but all of that should have a *separate* thread. There are many, many issues and ills befalling the music industry, but talking about that instead of lobbying for a set that WASN'T and ISN'T a victim of those industry issues is not helping anything.

In *this* thread, it is 100% distracting from the goal of lobbying and telling the band and all parties that we want this set. If the hang up behind the scenes had ANYTHING to do with issues of the eroding market for purchashing vs. streaming, I'd say so. That is NOT the case here.

Any people out there that would *not* want the "Feel Flows" set's non-release to be discussed would love for the topic here to shift to haranguing *individual* fans for streaming music.

So this thread can only discuss the non-release of Feel Flows? And cannot include other relevant conversations and ideas? Such as Feel Flows being a copyright-oriented project, and the post from Alan Boyd about supporting such releases by purchasing vs. streaming? And how this may relate to future releases - which does in fact include Feel Flows?

I'm not the moderator, so I can't answer that. If "Feel Flows" were announced for release, then the question of HOW to purchase it or listen to it would seem more worth discussing *right now*. But right now we're trying to convince them to release the set, so getting bogged down in pages of trying to guilt one or two fans for streaming music seems counterproductive.

The stuff you're talking about isn't any more germane to "Feel Flows" than the myriad of other music industry issues.

Discussing purchasing vs. streaming is an interesting topic (I have plenty of thoughts myself), so regardless of what's "allowed", I think it would make sense to start another thread, because right now we're talking about THAT instead of talking about why the set should be released.

It's ridiculous in my view to let a few people's fixation on this "streaming isn't supporting the artists" issues bog down a thread that really needs to focus on lobbying for the release of the set.

Well you keep moving the target.

I'm talking about Alan Boyd's post - which is interesting and relevant IMO - letting fans know that lack of purchasing of the copyright sets threatens the continuation of the sets. Regardless of the drama surrounding how that post came about, and how it was introduced into this thread (I'm not participating in that part), I think that is valid and legit.

It's particularly valid in the scenario in which FF is released as a deluxe box set but maybe doesn't sell as much as expected because everyone is streaming it. Then maybe we don't get another lavish set, and just get basic dumps with bare minimum. I am personally most looking forward to a 1976-era set tbh. And I would wish that that particular set is a multi-disc physical box, vinyl, etc.

So what is the big conspiracy here? I don't see how a thread that becomes a circle jerk of "I really want FF to come out!" is really any more helpful than an active conversation with a natural flow. What exactly, in your opinion, should people be discussing here?

The point in bold:

In this specific case, what is still being lost sometimes in the discussion is that the Feel Flows set was approved, given the green light, worked on, completed, and is now sitting that way without a projected release date. Obviously if it got that far in the process, the possible lack of sales and support was not an issue, the possible lack of support and sales due to digital streaming isn't an issue, and currently those issues are not holding up the set. We've been told by people directly involved that the *label wants it*.

So any issues going back to 2018 don't seem to have been an issue here if the set was originally approved, the project was completed, and the label wants it. And we're told the issues from 2018 that were resurrected through whatever ulterior motives were at play had nothing to do with this. Does anything more need to be said?

Of course it's important for fans to support and buy such material - You currently have 1,400 of them on a petition saying they'd support it and buy it, and you have people here posting repeatedly that they support and buy it.

I guess I don't understand why a series of posts from 2018 continues to be an issue when all of the support and willingness to buy this set has been demonstrated over and over again, and all the names on that petition and writing their thoughts here back it up.

If more voices in support of this are needed, then take it to other media outlets beyond the fan base. It was great to see Joel give it a good write-up in his publication. The fan base is already on board. We've been repeatedly saying we're on board for weeks. The petition is still getting signatures saying "we're on board".

I don't think the issue is any lack of fan support at this point. I don't think it ever was to be honest, minus those stunts pulled earlier this week trying and failing to suggest otherwise. The fans, the label, and if social media is any indication, several principles directly involved are on board with this set.

I think most people who know about the existence of this completed set have already signed the petition, or posted here in support. The fans are speaking loudly. If that's not enough, get it into the hands of the online music press.

Regarding streaming versus physical product, I wrote some of my thoughts in a separate topic. Anyone is welcome to do the same. I don't think, in my own personal opinion, that trying to get into the feasibility of streaming versus physical product carries much weight in 2020 especially when that delivery system has been in place now for years. The only solution to this dilemma would be to restrict all streaming purchases and limit releases to only physical product, and I think that wouldn't make sense in the simplest business terms to wipe out all of that potential revenue over aesthetics. People who want the physical product will buy it, people who do not buy physical product will pay to stream it. As long as the music gets out there to people who want it, and revenue is collected from doing it, they can coexist. And if the system in place is the issue, where new releases are available to stream, it's an issue far beyond the fans' reach to where the labels would have to be convinced to cut off streaming for their artists. I really can't see anything like that with big labels and major artists involved happening.



Most of us (aside from the folks who kind of wander into the thread and have not read through it all) are in agreement that there does not seem to be any indication that there are label/financial issues with the lack of release of the completed project. I just don't see why this discussion has to be so black & white, and almost political -in terms of factions of the group's fans.

The conversation regarding Alan Boyd's comments surrounding the 1968 set are relevant to this discussion IMO. And I hope we can discuss these things with nuance. I would even argue the "GET FEEL FLOWS RELEASED" petition-type/rallying cry is the topic that should be in it's own thread. I was under the impression this thread was discussion about the FF box in general. Some are narrowing in on a very particular aspect of the conversation; others are introducing broader concepts and discussing them.

It's relevant because posters like Wirestone are suggesting that paying for a streaming service supports the set. And it's relevant because Alan Boyd's comments in 2018 are likely just as applicable right now as they were then. And in the event that FF is not released this year - it will be relevant again in 2021 in the event that FF is re-assessed for the market at that time.

If we get a copyright dump this year that is similar to last year - then we have two years in a row that there was not really a real "project" released. Things change at labels. Howie said he saved the thing twice. The idea that getting these kinds of releases are an uphill battle is ripe for discussion. The idea that what we know now is now how it is tomorrow is ripe for discussion.

The bolded section of my post: "I'm talking about Alan Boyd's post - which is interesting and relevant IMO - letting fans know that lack of purchasing of the copyright sets threatens the continuation of the sets. Regardless of the drama surrounding how that post came about, and how it was introduced into this thread (I'm not participating in that part), I think that is valid and legit."

^ extremely relevant to this topic. These sets do not fund themselves. They are funded 100% on the future prospects for profitability. It has apparently been determined that the $$$ invested in FF will return profit at this point in time. Whether that determination changes next year or the year after (in the event of a non-release of FF this year) is open for discussion.

What if sales numbers are important to BRI members making these decisions? What if certain members don't want to release sets unless they meet certain sales criteria, and would prefer more unpopular releases to remain obscure? What if larger sales numbers for archive sets would encourage these members to reconsider? All thoughts and ideas that are relevant.

There's talk about "legacy" on these boards. This is the group's legacy. Whether we like it or not, the current members are the ones who get to decide how they want it to be presented. It's lame if any of them signed off, then pulled out. It would be nice if Dennis' family had a voice, but history is what it is.
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« Reply #1644 on: September 18, 2020, 11:44:29 AM »

I'm of the belief that some people are legitimately "in the know" about the reasons for the set's holdup - at least this has been hinted to by some posts indicating certainty (not hunches) of what's *not* causing the holdup. I don't think anyone would allude to things like that with certainty unless they had some certainty.

So I concur that streaming type issues should be taken off the table for this thread - I too would hate to give anyone who actually desires the set to NOT be released any shot in the arm to their heinous desires by us fans getting this thread bogged down on what appears to be an irrelevant tangent.

(Not that the streaming topic isn't interesting in and of itself, but yeah if it's not what's happening here, then it just becomes a distraction). If I knew what I as a fan could do to help the situation, I'd do it in a heartbeat (and I wish there was a pamphlet that concerned fans could receive that would outline steps of what we can do - or can avoid doing - to perhaps help even the tiniest bit to move the dial on FF), but I feel pretty confident that talking about what it seems is *not* the reason is counterproductive in this thread, since distractions are counterproductive, IMHO. I say all of that respectfully.

My hunch (and that's all it is, is a strong hunch) is that Mike Love and his antics in some form are behind this state we're in. To think otherwise is to ignore some circumstantial evidence, plus ignore some past similar holdups, and think that all of that is just mere coincidence - do some people think that?  

I haven't seen a single post in which anyone has indicated they think the non-release is due to streaming concerns. This is a straw man - and I'm not sure why. I can only guess that people don't want to discuss that Alan Boyd post because of the drama surrounding how it came to be in the first place, and the drama surrounding how it was introducted in this thread.

Also if Mike Love is the holdup - all the posts about how terrible Mike Love is and how wrong his decision is are certainly not gonna help him change his mind and sign off on the release. If you wanna talk about shooting yourself in the foot. If the only function of this thread is to rally to get the thing released, as some seem to be suggesting.

I say we discuss it all in this thread - unfiltered. That's what makes these discussions engaging. I don't want censorship or policing of the thread.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2020, 11:48:07 AM by DonnyL » Logged

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« Reply #1645 on: September 18, 2020, 11:46:54 AM »



What if sales numbers are important to BRI members making these decisions? What if certain members don't want to release sets unless they meet certain sales criteria, and would prefer more unpopular releases to remain obscure?  

TWGMTR hit #3 (a very high mark for a bunch of 70 year old dudes making a record), yet Mike still found a way to spin that as a negative. Pet Sounds is widely regarded as one of the most incredible pieces of musical art to come out of the 20th century, yet he had the gall to jaw-droppingly say in a recent-ish interview something to the effect that the Pet Sounds album should have had him writing the lyrics, and then it really could have been next level.

Bottom line is that those at BRI (I'm thinking of one dude, mainly) have decades-long personal vendettas and quests for power/respect that trump (pardon the expression) anything that could positively thought of as "certain sales criteria" by most rationally-thinking individuals.
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« Reply #1646 on: September 18, 2020, 11:51:09 AM »



What if sales numbers are important to BRI members making these decisions? What if certain members don't want to release sets unless they meet certain sales criteria, and would prefer more unpopular releases to remain obscure?  

TWGMTR hit #3 (a very high mark for a bunch of 70 year old dudes making a record), yet Mike still found a way to spin that as a negative. Pet Sounds is widely regarded as one of the most incredible pieces of musical art to come out of the 20th century, yet he had the gall to jaw-droppingly say in a recent-ish interview something to the effect that the Pet Sounds album should have had him writing the lyrics, and then it really could have been next level.

Bottom line is that those at BRI (I'm thinking of one dude, mainly) have decades-long personal vendettas and quests for power/respect that trump (pardon the expression) anything that could positively thought of as "certain sales criteria" by most rationally-thinking individuals.

How about responding to the main point of my post, instead of grabbing a random hypothetical example and using it as a gotcha?

But you have proved my point - that it's ripe for discussion. It's an interesting angle. It's a more compelling conversation when these angles are not suppressed in the name of turning this thread into what is essentially a boring petition.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2020, 11:51:56 AM by DonnyL » Logged

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« Reply #1647 on: September 18, 2020, 11:52:45 AM »



Also if Mike Love is the holdup - all the posts about how terrible Mike Love is and how wrong his decision is are certainly not gonna help him change his mind and sign off on the release. If you wanna talk about shooting yourself in the foot.

If someone with insider information would outright state that fans putting logic together to speculate about how things seem to line up about Mike likely - at least in part - being behind this holdup is a bad idea to discuss and would have a negative impact, I'll happily keep my theories to myself. I'd love to be disproven, too. I'd also be happy to never know the real answer, and to just have the music released.

I'm of the opinion that Mike and the other band members, families, everyone involved can't keep silent forever and ever about this set. I mean, that would take an awful lot of work. Fans are gonna keep clamoring for its release, and they are not gonna shut up.

I mean, at a certain point, if this non-release drags on for months or years (heaven forbid), and if everyone involved 100% remains silent, it will become obvious that some active suppression of this great music is happening, and that in and of itself is going to come to the media's attention in a bigger way. And then THAT will be the story that sells. Is it going to be "no comment" for years and years, and deleting social media comments for years and years on end? If Mike is behind this, I'm sure he doesn't want to look like the bad guy yet again. And this band is so incredibly famous for their greatest music being suppressed, so half of the work for that being a sellable story to media outlets has been done already. SMiLE Part II is how this would look. Eventually this will be better known in the media. And ultimately, I think that's gonna put pressure to the parties involved to resolve their conflicts and just get the damn music out and take fans' money.

But on the whole, I will agree that it's probably most productive to mainly talk about why it would be a good thing for the band to release this music. I'll not be holding my breath for somebody in the know to say "I can promise that Mike has nothing to do with it, lay off him". For me personally, it's very hard to not get caught up in the negative stuff, because frankly it's beyond awful to think that some petty BS is likely behind the squashing of great music.

After so many examples of similar stuff throughout the decades, it's a really terrible feeling. As I said, I'd love to know a roadmap as fans what we could/should/shouldn't do to help. But in the meantime, I'll listen to those who seem to for sure know certain things about what's going on here. If any people in the know can give feedback as to whether what we discuss is helping or hurting the situation, without spilling the beans, I and hopefully most other fans will gladly take any such advice.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2020, 12:20:58 PM by CenturyDeprived » Logged
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« Reply #1648 on: September 18, 2020, 11:57:03 AM »



What if sales numbers are important to BRI members making these decisions? What if certain members don't want to release sets unless they meet certain sales criteria, and would prefer more unpopular releases to remain obscure?  

TWGMTR hit #3 (a very high mark for a bunch of 70 year old dudes making a record), yet Mike still found a way to spin that as a negative. Pet Sounds is widely regarded as one of the most incredible pieces of musical art to come out of the 20th century, yet he had the gall to jaw-droppingly say in a recent-ish interview something to the effect that the Pet Sounds album should have had him writing the lyrics, and then it really could have been next level.

Bottom line is that those at BRI (I'm thinking of one dude, mainly) have decades-long personal vendettas and quests for power/respect that trump (pardon the expression) anything that could positively thought of as "certain sales criteria" by most rationally-thinking individuals.

How about responding to the main point of my post, instead of grabbing a random hypothetical example and using it as a gotcha?

But you have proved my point - that it's ripe for discussion. It's an interesting angle. It's a more compelling conversation when these angles are not suppressed in the name of turning this thread into what is essentially a boring petition.

Definitely don't want to be suppressing thought or angles. I don't mean to come across like that.  My sole motivation is for this thread to hopefully in some way help the set be released.

I just happen to feel based on the nature of some of the posts in this thread, that it can be surmised that what you are suggesting is for sure, confirmed to not a factor in the non-release.  
« Last Edit: September 18, 2020, 12:06:01 PM by CenturyDeprived » Logged
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« Reply #1649 on: September 18, 2020, 12:03:25 PM »

The conversation regarding Alan Boyd's comments surrounding the 1968 set are relevant to this discussion IMO. And I hope we can discuss these things with nuance. I would even argue the "GET FEEL FLOWS RELEASED" petition-type/rallying cry is the topic that should be in it's own thread. I was under the impression this thread was discussion about the FF box in general. Some are narrowing in on a very particular aspect of the conversation; others are introducing broader concepts and discussing them.

If you would argue that the topic about ways to help release Feel Flows in the thread titled Feel Flows should have its own thread, then certainly you can see the logic in moving a topic about streaming archival releases to another thread?

When this thread was created we were under the impression that we would actually be getting the set. At the moment, per Jon Stebbins ("It's not looking great") to Howie's most recent ""if" the project gets going", we know that there is a good chance this set may not come out at all. Thus at the moment I think the more pressing topic very much related to the topic Feel Flows is the actual release of Feel Flows. Not some hypothetical that involves Feel Flows somehow mostly getting streamed and thus possibly extinguishing a lavish boxset for the 1976 era (which, hate to say, if SS/WildHoney/Friends/2020 didn't get lavish boxsets I highly doubt that Love You will either).

Again,

Perhaps the topic does deserve its own thread - mostly because it's a big enough topic to warrant it's own thread, but also because regardless of the hypothetical connection the current topic has with Feel Flows, it's somewhat irrelevant to talk about the possible sales of a boxset that isn't even currently scheduled to be on sale at all.
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