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Author Topic: Heroes and Villians early version  (Read 2864 times)
Bicyclerider
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« Reply #50 on: October 13, 2019, 08:43:54 AM »

Some people have argued, because of the new master number, that Bicyclerider was to be part of a part 2/side 2.  Cam, mainly.  So no absolute consensus, although Alan has said he believes that the part 2 designation was for part 2 of the A side, I.e. to replace cantina, the former Part 2, which is the theory I subscribe to.  Different master numbers were used for different parts of Good Vibrations I believe as well.

The intro in December was Heroes Part 3 and was definitely planned for the A side, to follow Cantina in some way, as I suggested in my earlier post possibly to go after Cantina/my children were raised/three score and five and before Barnyard.  And I believe the a capella section would go in there after three score and five as well.  The re-recorded intro March 1 was recorded as Intro to Part 2 with the Part 2 master number so presumably was to be on the Bside.  But there’s the musically similar piece recorded Jan 5?  along with bridge to Indians that was probably a replacement for the Dec intro and again meant for the A side of the single.
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mike moseley
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« Reply #51 on: October 13, 2019, 09:09:53 AM »

And 'All day' had a vocal session - and was to have spoken parts in the gaps.

The '66 'Intro' is called as 'part 3' on the take.

What on earth are the '66 intro and All Day supposed to be..?  From what we have I think its impossible to even guess..?  Unless Intro is supposed to be a train..?  Thats what it sounds like to me if anything..?

Presumably 'All Day' was part of the IIGS/BY vibe..?  I wonder if the DaDa melody lines were meant for it but with lyrics..?  Its so sparse I bet it was going to have FX.

Its obvious the early versions were more of a mini 'movie' with FX etc.  Personally I don't like really obvious FX.   I prefer suggestion like the baby crying BG vox on the fast 'my children'.
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wjcrerar
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« Reply #52 on: October 14, 2019, 04:51:24 AM »

Brian mentions the the idea of 'lots of talking' in the All Day breaks but there wasn't a vocal session. Considering the length and multiple sections I don't think it was intended to be part of Heroes, more like Brian demoing a new song that potentially could land on the B-side. The only thing placing it as a Heroes section seems to be it being tracked on the same date as Cantina.

Part 3 from December is oddly in the key of E so... unless there would've been some varispeeding going on I have no idea where Brian was gonna put it. The March intro is in F, which isn't a natural fit either, although Brian directs Van Dyke to play the organ so it sounds like "frequency changes" rather than obvious chord changes so maybe that was the point.

The Feb 27, Feb 28, March 1 and March 2 sessions were all logged as 'Heroes and Villians Part II' on documents, but there don't appear to be any Part 2 slates on the tapes themselves or labels on the tape boxes. Closest any of them come is the 'Side Two' written on the box for the chorus track. It's weird.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2019, 05:21:58 AM by wjcrerar » Logged
Bicyclerider
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« Reply #53 on: October 14, 2019, 06:23:29 AM »

The final two takes of All Day on Jan 27th were only about 20 seconds long, so Brian could have been considering incorporating it into Heroes somehow at this point.  And of course it was first demoed on Dec 22nd.  Hard to see where he would have put it but after he rejected IIGS as part 2 he seemed to be trying all sorts of things on tape to find some sections and link pieces to finish the single - the Jan 3 sessions in particular with bridge to Indians, Do A Lot, tag to Part 1, Mission Pak, pickup to 3rd verse and Bag of Tricks (which sounds like a rejiggered Heroes Part 3/"intro").  And then Bicycle Rider on Jan 5th.  Only to reject them all with finalizing the cantina mix.  And then rejecting that . . .
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wjcrerar
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« Reply #54 on: October 14, 2019, 06:52:33 AM »

I'm a bit puzzled on All Day, the TSS book lists the master take as 20 of 28 which doesn't seem to be represented anywhere on the set or on bootlegs. There's a solid version of the main two-part riff on take 16, then a rough version of that elongated other section on take 26 with a few mistakes (which then leads back into the main riff), plus there are some booted early takes where the main riff leads into a choppy run of yet another different section that ends with Brian playing Pickup to 3rd Verse. The little Da Da riff is only 15ish seconds but combined with anything else it's up to 40-50, or longer if the minor key part was to go back into it. Unless there really is a clean master that hasn't been released for some reason it sounds to me like Brian was just testing ideas in the studio.

Maybe this was referring to All Day?

"I may end up just recording me and a piano - I tried it last night in the studio. It would be an interesting contrast, anyway."


Something I'm curious about is what they were working on at the Jan 31 and Feb 3 sessions. Feb 7 was likely Cantina vocals, and Tommy Tedesco's mandolins were definitely added on that date. The other two are a mystery beyond the missing Jan 31 mix with the super unhelpful tape box notes:

Quote
HEROS AND VILLAINS - 1ST PART

1 - 1st version of PT-1
2 - 2nd version of PT-1 with more echo
3 - 1st version of PT-2

4 Bridge to 3rd verses [or versions] (start with “My Children”)
5 Bridge To PT Two (whistle Part)

[note - EDITED, indicating all above parts]

6 - 3rd verses
7 BRIDGE [Last item crossed out]

NOTE:
THIS REEL HAS HAD ALL OF THE ABOVE REMOVED TO AN UNKNOWN REEL 12/31/85 J. PETERS


'Verse Edit Experiment' was dated Jan 27, meanwhile no known dates for the three "mono mix attempts" on Unsurpassed Masters. Could those mixes be from the missing dates? Additional work on CWR and Whistling Bridge? Why was the session on Feb 3 only one hour long! What's happening!!
« Last Edit: October 14, 2019, 07:35:07 AM by wjcrerar » Logged
mike moseley
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« Reply #55 on: October 14, 2019, 07:04:54 AM »

All Day 'track and vocals recorded at Columbia'... etc - booklet track17 CD 2 notes

I didn't know it was demoed in December..?

Presumably it was a pastoral type section..?
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wjcrerar
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« Reply #56 on: October 14, 2019, 07:13:32 AM »

All Day 'track and vocals recorded at Columbia'... etc - booklet track17 CD 2 notes

I didn't know it was demoed in December..?

Presumably it was a pastoral type section..?

There were no vocals so that's a typo.

The two 'Da Da' fragments were on the same 8-track reel as the DYLW vocals, presumably from the same Dec 21 session.
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mike moseley
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« Reply #57 on: October 14, 2019, 07:19:04 AM »

Oh well how do you know that info is wrong - and that there were no vocals..?  Not arguing either way just curious how you know.

All Day 'track and vocals recorded at Columbia'... etc - booklet track17 CD 2 notes

I didn't know it was demoed in December..?

Presumably it was a pastoral type section..?

There were no vocals so that's a typo.

The two 'Da Da' fragments were on the same 8-track reel as the DYLW vocals, presumably from the same Dec 21 session.
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wjcrerar
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« Reply #58 on: October 14, 2019, 07:35:33 AM »

Oh well how do you know that info is wrong - and that there were no vocals..?  Not arguing either way just curious how you know.


Are you hearing any vocals...?
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mike moseley
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« Reply #59 on: October 14, 2019, 07:47:48 AM »

No but that doesn't mean they weren't recorded - it could mean they were lost or abandoned. 

Oh well how do you know that info is wrong - and that there were no vocals..?  Not arguing either way just curious how you know.


Are you hearing any vocals...?
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Bicyclerider
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« Reply #60 on: October 16, 2019, 05:59:03 PM »

I don't think there's any evidence this tapebox indicates a final mix of the single was done at this time.  Cantina was likely the first complete "final" single mix attempt.

HEROS AND VILLAINS - 1ST PART

1 - 1st version of PT-1
2 - 2nd version of PT-1 with more echo
3 - 1st version of PT-2

4 Bridge to 3rd verses [or versions] (start with “My Children”)
5 Bridge To PT Two (whistle Part)

[note - EDITED, indicating all above parts]

6 - 3rd verses
7 BRIDGE [Last item crossed out]

NOTE:
THIS REEL HAS HAD ALL OF THE ABOVE REMOVED TO AN UNKNOWN REEL 12/31/85 J. PETERS

The box suggests to me that pieces of the song were mixed, and some of the pieces were edited together.  Then the pieces were removed to another reel which unfortunately appears to be missing, but we still have most of what was on this tape.

On Sea of Tunes Vol 17 disc 1 we have two mono mixes of the first two verses (Part 1), one with more echo.  The one with more echo sounds like the one eventually used for the Cantina mix.

1st version of Part 2 (cantina) is also on SOT, similar to what was used in the Cantina mix

Bridge to 3rd verse (start with my children) is the fast my children were raised, often wise which again was used in the Cantina mix to lead into the third verse (three score and five)

Bridge to Part 2 (whistle part) - eventually used to bridge from the third verse to the MOS Part 2/Barnshine fade in Cantina, here apparently it was being considered as a bridge to cantina (Part 2)  BUT there is an interesting edit on SOT 17 disc 1 track 16  using some of these parts:

Part 1 with more echo (1st 2 verses) edited into the whistle part edited into the "bridge to 3rd verse" (my children were raised)

So this mix may represent what was edited on this tape or on the tape the pieces were removed to.  Yes, it means the numbered sections on the tapebox are edited together 2 -5-4 but the box doesn't say the parts are edited together in numerical order, even though that would make more sense.

The verse edit experiment is also very interesting as it edits Part 1 (1st 2 verses) into bridge to Indians/pickup to 3rd verse.  Since it was done the same day as cantina was tracked, I have to think the idea was to try Part 1/bridge to Indians/cantina.  Because of the name when it was recorded Jan 3rd, two days before recording the Bicycle Rider vocals as Heroes Part 2, we have to assume Brian was thinking originally  Part 1/bridge/Bicycle Rider, but now cantina has replaced BR as Part 2.  In the cantina mix of course Brian used the a capella section to bridge to Part 2.

So an early January version might look like this:
Part 1 (1st 2 verses)/bridge to Indians/Bicycle Rider/pickup to 3rd verse/3rd verse/a capella/Bag of Tricks (Heroes Part 3)/Barnshine fade

There are mix attempts on SOT 17 disc 1 of the verses with 1st 2 verses followed by the 3rd verse followed by the a capella part (but with the backing track) so it's logical that at that time he was planning the a capella part to follow the third verse. This leaves out tag to Part One from Jan 3 and the version of Do a Lot.  Neither make any sense in any edit I can think of.  Maybe he was considering Do a Lot as a Part 2 before going back to Worms and taking Bicycle Rider from there 2 days later?
« Last Edit: October 16, 2019, 06:02:02 PM by Bicyclerider » Logged
c-man
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« Reply #61 on: October 16, 2019, 10:58:24 PM »

All Day 'track and vocals recorded at Columbia'... etc - booklet track17 CD 2 notes

I didn't know it was demoed in December..?

Presumably it was a pastoral type section..?

There were no vocals so that's a typo.

The two 'Da Da' fragments were on the same 8-track reel as the DYLW vocals, presumably from the same Dec 21 session.

Not a typo, actually...just a misinterpretation of the information. The mention of vocals pertains to the other parts recorded that day. The proper way to read the entry is thus:

Heroes And Villains Session: 1/27/67
13. Heroes And Villains: Children Were Raised
Lead vocal: Brian / Backing vocals: Brian, Dennis, Carl, Mike, Al, Bruce
Thigh slap: Brian Wilson
"Brillo pad" percussion: Dennis Wilson
Tack piano: Brian Wilson (o/d)
Control room comments: Steve Korthof
      Master is Take 8   
14. Heroes And Villains: Part 2 (Cantina track)
Tack piano: Brian Wilson
Control room comments: Steve Korthof
15. Heroes And Villains: Whistling Bridge
Vocals: Carl, Brian, Dennis, Mike
Whistling: Brian, Dennis & Carl ?
Control room comments: Al Jardine (switched places in the booth with Brian before the first official take)
      Master is Take 12
16. Heroes And Villains session: Cantina session & master take
Lead vocals: Brian with Mike / Laughter & Backing vocals: Brian, Dennis, Carl, Mike, Al, Bruce
"You're under arrest!" voice: Gene Gaddy
Tack piano: Brian Wilson
Mandolins: Tommy Tedesco (o/ds A & B)
      Master is Revised Version Take 17
17. Heroes And Villains: All Day
Piano (w/strings taped) : Brian Wilson
      Master is Take 20 (of 28)
      Track & Vocals recorded at Columbia Studio A, Friday January 27, 1967, 6:00pm-12:00am
      Engineer: Jerry Hochman, 2nd engineer: Don (aka D.T. ?)
      Vocals & Overdubs A & B on Track 16 recorded at Columbia Studio A, Tuesday February 7, 1967, 6:00pm-11:30pm
      Engineer: unknown
      Master # 57020 / Recorded on 1" 8-track tape
18. Heroes And Villains: Verse Edit Experiment
      Mixed & Edited Friday January 27, 1967 on 1/4" mono tape

The booklet uses an ingenious (if I do say so myself) color-coding method, whereby all the recording info (take numbers, dates, locations, engineer names) are in green, while vocals & singer credits are blue, instrumentation & musician credits are purple, and titles are sepia. Recording credits pertaining to several pieces recorded on the same date are listed after ALL pieces recorded that day. Sorry for any confusion!
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wjcrerar
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« Reply #62 on: October 17, 2019, 06:03:49 AM »


The booklet uses an ingenious (if I do say so myself) color-coding method, whereby all the recording info (take numbers, dates, locations, engineer names) are in green, while vocals & singer credits are blue, instrumentation & musician credits are purple, and titles are sepia. Recording credits pertaining to several pieces recorded on the same date are listed after ALL pieces recorded that day. Sorry for any confusion!


It's a good system, my bad!

By the way, is there info definitively suggesting all of the Jan 27 parts were tracked on that day? I'm wondering if there's any chance they could've actually been staggered accross that date and the subsequent mystery sessions, or at least maybe CWR/Whistle Bridge one session and Cantina/All Day another.
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c-man
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« Reply #63 on: October 17, 2019, 08:28:45 AM »


The booklet uses an ingenious (if I do say so myself) color-coding method, whereby all the recording info (take numbers, dates, locations, engineer names) are in green, while vocals & singer credits are blue, instrumentation & musician credits are purple, and titles are sepia. Recording credits pertaining to several pieces recorded on the same date are listed after ALL pieces recorded that day. Sorry for any confusion!


It's a good system, my bad!

By the way, is there info definitively suggesting all of the Jan 27 parts were tracked on that day? I'm wondering if there's any chance they could've actually been staggered accross that date and the subsequent mystery sessions, or at least maybe CWR/Whistle Bridge one session and Cantina/All Day another.

Anything's possible. Those parts are all on a reel dated 1/27. The only other documentation for that reel is the AFM sheet dated 2/27 indicating Tommy Tedesco's mandolin parts on the "Cantina" section were overdubbed that day, and Capitol Session worksheets indicating vocals were added that day (meaning, 2/27).
« Last Edit: October 17, 2019, 08:48:58 AM by c-man » Logged
wjcrerar
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« Reply #64 on: October 18, 2019, 02:10:17 PM »


The booklet uses an ingenious (if I do say so myself) color-coding method, whereby all the recording info (take numbers, dates, locations, engineer names) are in green, while vocals & singer credits are blue, instrumentation & musician credits are purple, and titles are sepia. Recording credits pertaining to several pieces recorded on the same date are listed after ALL pieces recorded that day. Sorry for any confusion!


It's a good system, my bad!

By the way, is there info definitively suggesting all of the Jan 27 parts were tracked on that day? I'm wondering if there's any chance they could've actually been staggered accross that date and the subsequent mystery sessions, or at least maybe CWR/Whistle Bridge one session and Cantina/All Day another.

Anything's possible. Those parts are all on a reel dated 1/27. The only other documentation for that reel is the AFM sheet dated 2/27 indicating Tommy Tedesco's mandolin parts on the "Cantina" section were overdubbed that day, and Capitol Session worksheets indicating vocals were added that day (meaning, 2/27).

What order do the sections appear in on the reel? The boxset breaks Cantina up into two tracks separated by others, wasn't sure if that's related to the way the pieces were found or a modern sequencing decision.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2019, 02:11:15 PM by wjcrerar » Logged
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