Adult Child

[Glenn Greenberg]

My feeling is that whatever good reputation the Beach Boys still had after LOVE YOU would have been totally destroyed if they'd put out ADULT/CHILD.

As someone else posted earlier, it's a mess.

[I. Spaceman]

My feeling is that whatever good reputation the Beach Boys still had after LOVE YOU would have been totally destroyed if they'd put out ADULT/CHILD.

As someone else posted earlier, it's a mess.

That is what happened, when MIU came out.

[Evenreven]

It's a mess, but a glorious mess. It's certainly better than both 15 Big Ones and MIU, imo. I don't think it would have hurt one bit. Sure, the lyrics are often goofy, but that didn't stop Surf's Up - containing "Take a Load off Your Feet" - from acclaim. And the "worst" lyric - Hey Little Tomboy - was used on MIU anyway. Au contraire, my friend, I think the public and critics would have recognised the greatness that is "Still I Dream of It" and "It's Over Now." My tuppence...

[Jeff Mason]

As if 15BO had not already done that in 1976.

[Glenn Greenberg]

As if 15BO had not already done that in 1976.

But that album sold well.

[Jeff Mason]

As if 15BO had not already done that in 1976.

But that album sold well.

And totally destroyed their rep.  The BB renaissance started by Endless Bummer guaranteed that any new album sold by the BB would go Top 10.  But notice how well all subsequent albums sold?  Or how easy it is to find a used copy of 15BO?  People bought it, got it home and hated it.  And the rep was shredded.

[the captain]

As if 15BO had not already done that in 1976.

But that album sold well.

Therein lies the problem. The oldies sold because people knew the band that way. And even back to Pet Sounds, the oldies (i.e., Greatest Hits) sold better than the quality new stuff. Mike was smart, and he rode that wave (bad surfing reference) as long as he could. Made the band money. But it is the problem, and the reason that some very cool, progressive music didn't happen.

[I. Spaceman]

Spot on, Jeff.
Exactly the reason why Love You bombed. They could have put out the cure for cancer and bombed after 15 BO.

[the captain]

Spot on, Jeff.
Exactly the reason why Love You bombed. They could have put out the cure for cancer and bombed after 15 BO.

Love You does cure cancer. I'm convinced of it.

[I. Spaceman]

 

some very cool, progressive music didn't happen.

Some did, just not enough.

[the captain]

Very true, Ian.

On that note, what might have happened if more of Dennis' solo stuff had been incorporated into BBs material, more of Carl's music (there's some on LA, of course, but you have to go back half a decade or so for the last Carl songs before that), etc? Would it have made for better albums that bombed? Or might the public have cared?

I've been putting together in my mind albums that could have come out around '78, '79, etc. It isn't that they had to be so bad. There was plenty to work with.

[SMiLEY]

15BO's didn't hurt the BB's career! They had their first hit single in years with it and it sold well enough. (I detest that single but whatever) It was in fact Love You that bombed mightily, setting them back with their record company (nefariously negotiating with rival companies didn't help). Love You was such a departure (I"d say 'ahead of it's time') for the average BB fan that it fed the internal struggles within the group (leading to the Mike & Al show of MIU) and alienated Warner's enough to look unfavorably on Adult Child.

AC is a very fragmented album to begin with, but I think it has lovely moments. It's Trying To Say, Lines, etc. Deep Purple, though, was straying too far into MOR.

[Jeff Mason]

I don't get this!  Everyone thinks that because 15BO was a hit that it didn't hurt the BB?  And that LY bombing was what did it?  Come on -- re-read the 1976 press.  There was a tremendous backlash critically against the band who came across as washed up.  They had not released a new album in 3 years, they knew what was at stake, a huge promo package put together, and THAT was the best that they could do?  Carl and Dennis were both opposed to its release but overruled.  They knew what would happen.

Love You bombed for two reasons: 1) no one believed that the BB could make a decent record after 15BO and 2) they had already negotiated the new contract with Caribou at that time and poisoned the label against them.  That happened just as Love You was being released and the label gave it zero promotional push.  It frankly is amazing in some ways that Love You went Top 50 -- no single, no radio play, and yet it outperformed the next three albums which all generated radio singles. 

And did they ever actually submit Adult Child for possible release?  My understanding is that they did not.  And surely Warners would have taken something like Adult Child over MIU any day of the week.

[Sheriff John Stone]

I don't get this!  Everyone thinks that because 15BO was a hit that it didn't hurt the BB?  And that LY bombing was what did it?  Come on -- re-read the 1976 press.  There was a tremendous backlash critically against the band who came across as washed up.  They had not released a new album in 3 years, they knew what was at stake, a huge promo package put together, and THAT was the best that they could do?  Carl and Dennis were both opposed to its release but overruled.  They knew what would happen.

Love You bombed for two reasons: 1) no one believed that the BB could make a decent record after 15BO and 2) they had already negotiated the new contract with Caribou at that time and poisoned the label against them.  That happened just as Love You was being released and the label gave it zero promotional push.  It frankly is amazing in some ways that Love You went Top 50 -- no single, no radio play, and yet it outperformed the next three albums which all generated radio singles. 

And did they ever actually submit Adult Child for possible release?  My understanding is that they did not.  And surely Warners would have taken something like Adult Child over MIU any day of the week.

I don't agree with you on this. Yes, 15 Big Ones did hurt the Beach Boys, but only slightly. Some of the reviews were critical, but there were also a lot of "we're glad to have 'em back" reviews. Brian took a hit, but people still believed he was a genius. The backlash gave them a dose of reality, and they survived 1976 pretty much intact. Even though much of the material on 15 BIG ONES was admittedly weak, the group was still happy that they got a hit album and hit single, and of course that Brian was back contributing.

LOVE YOU bombed because no one believed that the BB could make a decent record after 15BO? I totally disagree. Like I said, Brian was still regarded as a savior, they just had a commercially successful album, the Beach Boys were still selling out everywhere, and, this newfound success also helped (as Endless Summer did) re-open that wonderful back catalogue of material to fans. If anything, people WERE EXPECTING a new, great album from the Beach Boys. Now, Brian was really gonna show everybody. Now, he's really back. He was rushed into producing 15 Big Ones. He just wrote 40 new songs, two albums worth...

As far as the record company not promoting it, I never bought that as an excuse for LOVE YOU bombing. LOVE YOU bombed because of what it was not. It was not a Beach Boys' sounding record. And that's what the record-buying public wanted from the Beach Boys at that time. Other than the first 2 tracks on LOVE YOU, those songs are not even remotely what the public wanted from the Beach Boys. They didn't want Johnny Carson, Solar System, or Love Is A Woman. They didn't want to hear Brian and Dennis croaking (some would say ruining) potentially great songs. Even Honkin' wasn't a real car song like Custom Machine. Even the album cover was questionable (sorry, Dean). Do you really think a few ads in a few publications would've helped LOVE YOU? That album never had a chance. But I love it anyway.

And, finally, no I don't think Warners would've taken Adult Child over MIU. Like I mentioned above, in 1977, people were just coming off Endless Summer, Spirit Of America, Rock And Roll Music, It's OK, and I believe Sail On Sailor had recently charted. Warners would've taken one listen to Brian singing "Deep Purple" or Dennis croaking "baseball's on" or Mike singing about a pudgy person appearing and gone "WHAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

[the captain]

So instead of Adult Child, the answer was MIU? If the people wanted those backward-facing cliches and (worse) Match Point of Our Love...well, I guess that would say something about people.

[Sheriff John Stone]

So instead of Adult Child, the answer was MIU? If the people wanted those backward-facing cliches and (worse) Match Point of Our Love...well, I guess that would say something about people.

Luther, I did not say MIU was the answer. What I did say was that Adult Child was NOT.

Hey, I like Adult Child, although I think it's slightly overrated. I'm just stating what the general public preferred in 1976-77...

[the captain]

I know, SJS. I think we're mostly saying the same thing. I think that, since the BBs were not going to do well either way, apparently (in the public's eyes), they may as well have followed an artistic muse. Put together an album from Dennis' and Brian's better music, don't give up and make albums of 1/2 oldies, 1/2 old-sounding newbies. They could have retained a "Beach Boys" sound AND made something artistically valid.

[Jeff Mason]

Sherriff, you will have to quote a specific review to get me to believe that one.  15BO is probably the most critically savaged album in the catalog and has dated the worst of all of the 70's albums.  From Back to the Beach:  "What the little deuce coupe is going on around here?  ...a gaggle of cover versions of songs which might be called 'classics' if you were feeling generous and/or drunk."  "..just what kind of menopause, re-evaluation, or plain laziness has gone on in those years since Holland no one has been airing to the public...the first reaction to 15BO is disappointment."  "[Brian's] professional collapse cannot be ignored."  "The Beach Boys ony succeed in jumping several steps sideways and ten years backwards...grimly disappointing."  There is one positive review quoted, but it sounds like a review done by a Reprise staff writer.  Unfortunately no sources for any reviews are given, and I expect these are all British.  Can you seriously find more than one or two isolated good reviews?

The band was not united behind 15BO and in fact was in process of disintegrating, which would take place completely in 1977.  From Badman's book: "Carl and Dennis object strongly to the release of the record.  Carl tells Newsweek that he was disappointed with 15 Big Ones.  Dennis adds: 'We were heartbroken.  People have waited all this time, anticipating a new Beach Boys album, and I hated to give them this.  It was a great mistake to put Brian in full control. [Jeff: reference this in the 1995 thread, perhaps...?]  He was always the absolute producer, but little did he know that in his absence, people grew up, people became as sensitive as the next guy.  Why do I relinquish my rights as an artist?  The whole process was a little bruising.'"  Does THAT sound like a band happy that they had a hit album and that Brian was contributing to you?

By 1976, their success was hardly newfound.  They had the initial explosion in 1974, and 1975 saw a second top 10 hits compilation and the amazing success of Beachago.  The pressure was on in 1976 to create a new album and Holland was still in people's minds at the time.  Even those in favor of the hits didn't like 15BO because the production was so bad.  LY had no publicity.  How many reviews did it even get? (and BTW -- those that did review it liked to loved it)  How much radio time did it get?  How many people even knew that there was a BB album out there?

If LY was so anti-public expectation, why didn't MIU or LA outsell them?  Unlike LY, both had radio singles with decent airplay, with a top 40/top 20 AC placing for "Good Timin'" which sounded just like what people were expecting of them one would think.  And Caribou was trying its best to sell it.  People wanted the hits and weren't listening for new material, which was proven by concert boots.  There was one from the LA tour where you can hear Al and Bruce apologizing for spending time to a quiet crowd playing this music, but that they had to.  And Mike deals with a heckler asking for 409.  Perhaps things would have been different had they seized a new identity at the time of 15BO, or at least made respectable product.  

Believe me, hits can hurt a band as bad as flops, and 15BO was perhaps the biggest hit to their reputation ever.  They never recovered.

[Jeff Mason]

And one more critical thought -- 1976 was also the year for Brian Wilson's stint on Saturday Night Live.  He lost a LOT of credibility that night with his performance.  At that point, the public's view of Brian's "comeback" was that it was a pure PR stunt exploiting a sick individual.  No one thought that Brian was in a position to do anything on the evidence of that show and 15BO.

[Andrew G. Doe]

It frankly is amazing in some ways that Love You went Top 50

[koff] didn't. #53.

[Sheriff John Stone]

Jeff, you threw a lot at me there! Great post!

I think our biggest disagreement is that you are looking more (not entirely) in hindsight, and from a critical point of view, as the knowledgeable Beach Boy fan you are. I am trying (to you unsuccessfully) to view 15 Big Ones from the average record buyer in 1976, who only knows the Beach Boys through Endless Summer.

In that regard, 15 Big Ones was not the failure you make it out to be. No, I cannot pull out the positive record reviews that I referred to. I was referring to more of the People magazine, or US magazine reviews, or newspaper articles, as opposed to "serious" music publications like Rolling Stone or Creem. I still maintain that more people read "they may be old, bald, and fat - but we're glad to have 'em back" than reviews which hammered the album. Although I agree the album deserved the criticism.

Just a few quick responses to your post... I did not say the Beach Boys were united behind 15 Big Ones. I said they survived 1976, which they did. The first real collapse began in late 1977 I believe.

I did not say their success was newfound in 1976. I believe I refferenced Endless Summer and Spirit Of America which were released in 1974 and 1975. But that is pretty close to newfound isn't it?

Love You probably sold what it did BECAUSE OF the success of 15 Big Ones. Love You was the album, if any, that "hurt" the the Beach Boys' career the most. And I still love it!

I'll close with this. 15 Big Ones, as flawed as it was, served it's purpose. It gave the Beach Boys a hit single and a hit album. Maybe it helped Brian regain some of his lost confidence. At the very least, it helped to buy time until he was "really back", which he proved with LOVE YOU.

[I. Spaceman]

No, the only reason 15 sold was because of press hype and Endless Summer fumes. No one regarded it as a great album, and no one left that album wishing for more new BB music.

[Jeff Mason]

It frankly is amazing in some ways that Love You went Top 50

[koff] didn't. #53.

Still better than any BB album to follow until 1985.

[Glenn Greenberg]

Spot on, Jeff.
Exactly the reason why Love You bombed. They could have put out the cure for cancer and bombed after 15 BO.

You really don't think the fact that LOVE YOU doesn't sound ANYTHING like the Beach Boys, and that Brian and Dennis sound AWFUL, and that the songs are completely loopy, had anything to do with why it bombed?

[Glenn Greenberg]

And one more critical thought -- 1976 was also the year for Brian Wilson's stint on Saturday Night Live.  He lost a LOT of credibility that night with his performance.  At that point, the public's view of Brian's "comeback" was that it was a pure PR stunt exploiting a sick individual.  No one thought that Brian was in a position to do anything on the evidence of that show and 15BO.

I'd love to see that episode.  Any idea who hosted that night?