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Author Topic: This week in BB history June 20-30  (Read 2382 times)
Ian
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« on: June 20, 2019, 11:12:21 AM »

June 20 1963-The Beach Boys were on tour in Hawaii on a bill with Dee-Dee Sharp, the Treniers and Jackie De Shannon that was advertised as the “Show of Stars.” David Marks recalled that the Beach Boys backed up Dee-Dee Sharp and Jackie De Shannon. They were at Baldwin Auditorium in Maui on June 20, Hilo Civic Auditorium on June 21 and Bloch Arena at Pearl Harbor on June 22.  As Elmer Marks home movies (seen in the American Band and Endless Harmony documentaries) illustrate Al was on this tour in place of Brian.  Audree was also there as a chaperone. When the BBs eventually headed home, they played at the Las Vegas Convention Center, with the Teen Beats on June 29 1963.

June 22 1964-The BBs were working on possible singles and they held a session for what became Don’t Hurt My Little Sister. The next day they added background vocals to Little Honda for a possible single release before returning to work on the Christmas LP on June 24 and 25.  They then played a concert in San Jose on June 26 with Bobby Freeman, Rene and Rene and the Paris Sisters before heading back to the studio to complete the Christmas sessions on June 27 to 30 1964.

June 24 1966- Irving Granz and his assistant, future BB road manager Jack Lloyd produced a concert at the Cow Palace in San Francisco. Murry Wilson was in attendance to support his new protégés the Sunrays, whom he’d managed to get onto the bill. Also on the bill were the Lovin’ Spoonful, Chad and Jeremy, Percy Sledge, The Outsiders (Time Won’t Let Me), The Leaves (Hey Joe), Sir Douglas Quintet (She’s A Mover), Neil Diamond, The Byrds and The Jefferson Airplane.  Now that’s a concert!!!! The next night the BBs played the Hollywood Bowl with Brian in attendance (he was photographed backstage for KRLA Beat). The bill featured Love, Percy Sledge, Captain Beefheart and his Magic Band, The Outsiders, Neil Diamond, The Leaves, Chad and Jeremy, Byrds, The Sunrays, The Lovin’ Spoonful and the New Motown Sound.

June 20-21, 1967 the BBs worked on the Hawaiian Song (we now know this was part of the track to Little Pad) On June 25 and 26 they recorded “Good Time Mama”, which remains unreleased as the tape box is missing (However-Howie Edelson posited that it was a working title for She’s Going Bald) On June 28 they worked on Little Pad and then the next day was devoted to Fall Breaks (Woody Woodpecker Symphony). On June 30 they worked on With Me Tonight.

Jun 20 1968- Bruce tinkered with The Nearest Faraway Place. Dennis held a session on June 26 for an untitled song. June 28 1968-Brian produced the single-I’ll Keep On Loving You/As Tears Go By for Ron Wilson at ID Sound. It would be interesting to see a photo of this session or even a photo of Brian and Ron together.

June 20 1969 the BBs made their second trip to Finland to play the Keimolan Juhannus Juhla in Vantaa (near Helsinki), Finland. On June 21 they played at the Antwerp Pop Festival and then returned to England for two encore shows by popular demand at the Finsbury Park Astoria with Marmalade and the Rainbow People.  Mike Ledgerwood of Disc and Music Echo reported, “the Beach Boys certainly left us with some good vibrations.  A full blooded, power packed bumper programme which included most of their big hits and Carl Wilson’s clever, if at times a tiny bit flat, rendering of ‘God Only Knows.’ …Musically they might not exactly reproduce their famous studio sounds, but they have a damned good try and the result is not disappointing.” The Flame apparently departed for the States with Carl after the 69-tour and he then produced their first album that fall.  Mike and Bruce remained in England to tape an appearance on Top of the Pops on July 25-where they introduced film footage shot at Leeds. Bruce also spent time working on a single for his pal Graham Bonney.

June 20 1971-A session was held for Fourth of July, which took place in the midst of the legendary Rolling Stone Magazine article being written-with interviews of Brian and Murray.  June 24 1971 the BBs began a tour at Celebration Island in Pointe Coupee, LA without Dennis, who was still recovering from a hand injury that left him unable to drum for three years. Pink Floyd, Miles Davis and BB King were also on this Festival bill.  The BBs then headed to another Festival in Toronto-The Beggars Banquet Festival with Alice Cooper, Bread, Chilliwack, Steppenwolf, Blood Rock, and Lighthouse on June 26.   They then played at the closing of Bill Graham’s legendary Fillmore East on June 27 with Mountain, the Allman Brothers, J Geils Band, Albert King, Edgar Winters and County Joe McDonald.  I recounted in my book that the BBs almost didn’t appear at this highly publicized event because of Jack Rieley’s demands to be top billed. Fortunately their agents talked them out of walking out. The BBs then played at Theatre Maisonneuve in Montreal on June 30, where Dennis rejoined the tour-though he now mainly wandered the stage singing a bit or noodling on the piano.  While the BBs were on tour Steve Desper was back in LA producing the second (unreleased) LP for the Flame.

June 26 1972-The Marcella/Hold on Dear Brother single was released, while the BBs were working on the Holland LP in the Netherlands. Around this time the American Spring LP was released as well.  June 20 1974 the BBs played in Bangor Maine with The Apple Butter Band. On June 21 they appeared at the Civic Centre in Ottawa. The reviewer noted, “At different times, five Beach Boys played keyboard instruments, often four at one time, as in the case of the highlights of the opening half: We Got Love, Marcella and Sail on Sailor, all equally exuberant and all recent Beach Boys products. But the audience was happiest with the hits.” Dennis had still not returned to drums and the reviewer noted, “Everything but contributing musically, Dennis, who still at least looks like a Beach Boy with his relatively short hair, jeans and muscle shirt, wandered around aimlessly, and occasionally flexed his pectorals.” The BBs then played the Memorial Arena in Binghamton on June 22 and at the “World Series of Rock” at Municipal Auditorium in Cleveland with REO Speedwagon, Lynyrd Skynyrd and Joe Walsh with Barnstorm on June 23 1974.

June 21, 1975 The BBs played at Wembley Stadium with Elton John, Joe Walsh, the Eagles, and Rufus with Chaka Khan.  NME declared, “In soccer terms, it was Elton John 1, Beach Boys 3.  Where the Beach Boys, with their close harmony, good time sounds and gospel of nothing more profound than the joys of teenage love, immediately connected with the audience, Elton John seemed obsessed with piano dominated, moody music and was for most of the time on a cloud of his own.”  June 24-28 1975 the BBs returned to the Beachago tour for five nights at the Capitol Center, Landover, MD. These shows were taped for a live album, which I assume will someday come out if all the tapes can be found and rights obtained.  Jun 1975, Beach Boys-Chicago TV Special, Various locations

William Reid produced a TV special about the Beachago tour called “Fun, Fun, Fun” that featured footage from Madison Square Garden and the Capitol Centre in Largo, Maryland. The Beach Boys are seen performing “Catch a Wave”, “Good Vibrations”, and “Fun, Fun, Fun.”  While the BBs were in the DC area they visited the White House as guests of Susan Ford on June 24 1975
The following night members of the BBs, Chicago and the Pointer Sisters all attended a screening of Jaws after the show.  On Jun 29 Beachago played the Schaeffer Center, Foxboro, MA.  The reviewer noted “Here is a group that is obviously proud of its past. It reeled off 19 songs spanning all phases of a long and successful career, all performed with adolescent enthusiasm and genuine style.”

June 20 1976- Scenes were filmed of Brian’s birthday party, attended by the McCartney’s, for the Beach Boys It’s OK TV Show that aired in August. Possibly the scenes of Brian surfing with Belushi and Ackroyd were also filmed this day.  June 23 1977-Brian recorded a version of Gimme Some Lovin.  Four days later a master of the Adult Child album was assembled.  This was a highly productive period for Brian-who’d really slimmed down-it’s evident in retrospect that things might have been different if he’d received encouragement at this time-but the band was in a dysfunctional place and this was really the peak of “Brian’s Back”.  This was as “Back” as he’d get.

June 20 1978-The BBs played the Spectrum in Philadelphia-with Charles Lloyd, which was recorded for radio. Jack Lloyd of the Philadelphia Inquirer noted, “There was a time when the Beach Boys rebelled at the thought of being regarded more in terms of nostalgia than musical growth, but now it appears that they have gracefully accepted their fate. The emphasis in concert is certainly on the vintage biggies that bring the audience to its collective feet and spark the cheering and hand clapping.” The next night they were in Rochester, NY and then played the Forum in Montreal (22) Ottawa (23) and the CNE Grandstand, Toronto- with Steve Miller, Journey and Pablo Cruise on June 24.  According to a fan, Brian fainted onstage during "Good Vibrations" due to the heat and “Mike strapped on a green electric guitar. I'm not sure if he played it or not, also not sure if it was a bass or a six-string (I think the latter). It would have been for Barbara Ann and Fun, Fun, Fun.” Typically the reviewers didn’t remark on this unusual occurrence. 

June 25 1978 the BBs played before a massive crowd of 61,128 at the first concert held at the newly constructed Giants Stadium with Stanky Brown, Steve Miller and Pablo Cruise. The reviewer noted “(Mike) Love made a costly mistake when he threw back the first Frisbee that landed on stage. The group was bombarded with missiles from all directions after that and one well-aimed roll of toilet paper wrapped itself around Brian’s bass.”  There was still tension in the band at this time. In an interview, Carl was asked why he Dennis left the stage when Mike did a “TM song” and stated Dennis’s “attitude is that we should be doing Beach Boys music-a collaboration.  I thought we were just taking a break.” Asked about Celebration, his anger flared “Love’s project doesn’t mean s….”.  Jun 27 and 28 1978-The BBs worked on Santa Ana Winds and Winds of Change. The next day the MIU album was mastered.

June 19 and 20 1979 the BBs played at Red Rock in Denver with Ironhorse. This was right after Dennis had been suspended from the band. They then played the Aladdin Hotel in Las Vegas, and then spend two days at the Greek Theater at UC Berkeley. June 21 1980-The BBs played at Knebworth. The concert was simulcast on radio and then “Sweetened” before being sold on home video and LP: new vocals and instrumental parts were added. It was of course the last UK concert played by all five original members.  Although Brian participated little vocally, he’d temporarily shaved off his beard and looked much as he did around 1968.  Karl Dallas of Melody Maker noted, "The Beach Boys...seemed as if they could have gone on all night and still have the audience, if not all the local burghers, crying for more.  Not that they were flawless. Perhaps it was the brotherly burden of having Brian Wilson on stage with them, but the Beach Boys are nothing if their harmonies are less then perfect, and there were times ('In My Room', their fifth number, was where the rot began to set in) when the discords were positively painful. On the other hand they sailed through the complexities of 'Good Vibrations', the second of four encores, with hardly a note out of place.”

June 20 1981 the BBs played at Poplar Creek in Chicago and then played three nights at Pine Knob near Detroit. John Laycock of the Windsor Star, commented: "Technically speaking they didn't play all that well. I've heard bar bands with half as many members get more fidelity out of these numbers.  But never mind. By now the songs have their own life. They have such independent presence they let Mike Love serve as front man with his hoarse voice, mincing around the pristine white stage in front of the matching white instruments. And they let Brian Wilson sit like an unhappy Buddha at the baby grand, chain smoking and staring at the keyboard.” The BBs then played Six Flags in Atlanta (24), Butler University in Indianapolis, IN (25), Blossom Music Center in Cleveland (26), Nashville (27), Charlotte, NC (28) and Charleston, SC on June 30 1981.

Meanwhile Carl was on the road with the Doobie Brothers, serving as their opener.  In a not untypical review of the show in Cedar Rapids on June 25 the reviewer commented, “Wilson had better keep his Beach Boys slot intact. His thing seems to be heavy-metal rock, with a rhythm and blues influence.  That’s OK but Wilson just didn’t pull it off at the Five Seasons, receiving only polite acceptance from the crowd. Many of his vocals were distorted and the music selection was poor for a live concert. Wilson did inject a couple of Beach Boys songs into the act, most notably Darlin’ but it was done with a much heavier beat than the original. A version of Sam and Dave’s “I Thank You” showed promise, featuring some fine bass by Gerald Johnson and lead guitar by John Daley but towards the end of the song it sounded as though the band strayed from the melody.”

Another BB tour took place in June 1982 but Carl participated in this one and the now increasingly dysfunctional Dennis and Brian didn’t-which made a big difference. Commenting on the Six Flags Over Texas show on June 20 the reviewer stated “The lineup was much stronger than the one that came through in March...The Beach Boys that played Fort Worth in March were fun, but they weren't too cohesive.  This time the boys were fun and a lot tighter." The tour continued through the south and Midwest till June 27. The tour ender in Charlotte was reviewed by Charles Johnson of the Observer who was disappointed by the group's insistence on only playing hits. "That emphasis ignored the group's inventive work that followed 'Good Vibrations,' a No. 1 hit in 1966. After repeated commercial and artistic failures in the 1970s, the Beach Boys in concert have returned to their oldest and safest material. Although three of the group's original members... appeared at Carowinds, the group often sounded as if it were only a shadow of it's former self...But Carl Wilson injected style and emotion into his few lead vocals, especially on the lovely 'God Only Knows' and 'Good Vibrations.'”

June 22 1983 Carl embarked on a short solo tour to promote his second solo album Youngblood.  He played in Seattle at Parker’s that night and then opened for America at the Greek Theater in LA on June 24 and 25, the Irvine Meadows Amphitheater on June 26 and the Old Waldorf Club in San Francisco on June 29. Reviewing the June 26 show Veronica Young of the Orange County Register attended commented that Carl “appeared to be having more fun than he has at most Beach Boys concerts…Wilson’s material ranged from mellow originals, strongly affected by a Beach Boys’ influence from the album eras of Pet Sounds, Surf’s Up and the more recent MIU, to some rocky remakes, ranging from a 1957 hit by the Coasters, ‘Youngblood,’ (also the title song from Wilson’s latest LP) to a 1970 gold record by Sly and the Family Stone, ‘Thank You.’”

June 20-25 1984-Carl traveled to Red Bus Studios in London to work on The Beach Boys LP with Steve Levine. He worked on Where I Belong, It’s getting Late, Maybe I Don’t Know, Down by the Pier and I Do Love You.  Carl was back in the States by June 28 to appear with the BBs on the NBC TV Tonight Show, hosted that night by Joan Rivers. They Sang Graduation Day and discussed Brian’s weight loss, groupies and the upcoming July 4 show, as well as the James Watt controversy.  The next night the Beach Boys, minus Brian, played before a near capacity crowd at The Pacific Amphitheater. Jim Washburn of the Orange County Register singled out Carl’s vocal contributions as “the only proof that the group is still capable of being more than just human jukeboxes.  His hauntingly beautiful ballad ‘Heaven,’ dedicated to his brother Dennis, carried an emotional spark the Beach Boys could certainly use more of.” The BBs played in Candlestick Park the next night.

June 1985 the BBs again were on tour. The June 23 show in Memphis got a nice review from Michael Donahue of the Commercial Appeal: “The Beach Boys delighted the audience with a range of their unique California sound songs…The Beach Boys aren’t content to rest on their numerous hits of the past.  They recently showed that they could still make hits with Getcha Back.  They performed this song, which has the Beach Boys ingredients including the wailing vocals.  It would have been hard for a Beach Boys fan to walk away unsatisfied.” Think I’ll stop there, as this could go on forever-as they basically have been on tour in June every year!!
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Ian
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« Reply #1 on: June 21, 2019, 04:58:26 AM »

In 1978 it should say "he and Dennis left the stage"
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Jim V.
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« Reply #2 on: June 21, 2019, 07:42:47 AM »

Thank you so much for these "week in BB history" posts Ian. Please keep 'em coming if you can!

Now the real interesting thing is Carl (?) apparently saying that Mike Love's Celebration project "doesn't mean sh*t." Kinda doesn't jibe with the "go along to get along" Carl we think we know, though I guess I'd say this is still a late '70s quote, so it makes sense.
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Ian
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« Reply #3 on: June 21, 2019, 10:23:25 AM »

Right-Carl was a real diplomat but occasionally he let out a little frustration come out in unguarded moments
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HeyJude
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« Reply #4 on: June 21, 2019, 11:59:52 AM »

It's interesting too that Carl felt that way about the "Celebration" stuff in light of his having sat in for a Celebration gig (along with Brian) when Celebration did that gig at USC in April.

I think Carl was just in a rare sometimes drunk, surly mood in 1977/78, and probably didn't have his usual filter. Think about the turmoil just between mid-1977 and mid-1978. Carl was drinking more at gigs, then the September "Tarmac Incident" where the band nearly broke up, and then early 1978 saw the Australia debacle.

That the band was alive, active, and doing gigs in the summer of 1978 was arguably a small miracle.
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Needleinthehay
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« Reply #5 on: June 21, 2019, 01:39:38 PM »

Agreed that he might not have had his usual filter. While he was usually positive about stuff he also was the “quality control” guy and of course he knew deep down that celebration was crap. He probably just had an honest moment and actually said it by accident. I mean would anyone on this board say celebration was great? I doubt it.

Ps love these posts keep them coming!
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HeyJude
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« Reply #6 on: June 21, 2019, 01:44:10 PM »

Agreed that he might not have had his usual filter. While he was usually positive about stuff he also was the “quality control” guy and of course he knew deep down that celebration was crap. He probably just had an honest moment and actually said it by accident

Ps love these posts keep them coming!

Carl was the QC guy indeed. But he certainly wasn't filling that role in 1977/78; it's telling that we have pro-shot shows on video over a year apart (Largo, MD from January 1977 and Australia 1978), and Carl is toasted at both shows ("78 more so of course).

As even attested to in Jon Stebbins's "Real Beach Boy" Dennis bio, Al Jardine was about the only person holding that 1978 Australia/New Zealand tour together. Carl was out of it, Brian was head-in-the-clouds at best, Dennis seemed relatively together ironically but was embroiled in all of the politics, and Mike was doing his usual schlock stuff, like trying to teach multiple lines of lyrics to an audience that had never heard the song in question ("Country Pie').

I'd also argue that while Carl, as musical director, kept the Beach Boys generally very professional sounding through his tenure in 1997, the band got pretty stale and rote.

Just imagine a band *with* Carl and the rest of the guys, but with Mertens and Totten as musical directors really motivating everybody to up their game.
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Ian
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« Reply #7 on: June 21, 2019, 02:09:38 PM »

 It’s 100% true that Carl was still pretty screwed up in early 78 but he was in much better shape by 1979-by which time the other two Wilson were in poor shape! I’m sure this contributed to his desire to branch out and do a solo album in 1980
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tpesky
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« Reply #8 on: June 23, 2019, 05:35:38 PM »

Agreed that he might not have had his usual filter. While he was usually positive about stuff he also was the “quality control” guy and of course he knew deep down that celebration was crap. He probably just had an honest moment and actually said it by accident

Ps love these posts keep them coming!

Carl was the QC guy indeed. But he certainly wasn't filling that role in 1977/78; it's telling that we have pro-shot shows on video over a year apart (Largo, MD from January 1977 and Australia 1978), and Carl is toasted at both shows ("78 more so of course).

As even attested to in Jon Stebbins's "Real Beach Boy" Dennis bio, Al Jardine was about the only person holding that 1978 Australia/New Zealand tour together. Carl was out of it, Brian was head-in-the-clouds at best, Dennis seemed relatively together ironically but was embroiled in all of the politics, and Mike was doing his usual schlock stuff, like trying to teach multiple lines of lyrics to an audience that had never heard the song in question ("Country Pie').

I'd also argue that while Carl, as musical director, kept the Beach Boys generally very professional sounding through his tenure in 1997, the band got pretty stale and rote.

Just imagine a band *with* Carl and the rest of the guys, but with Mertens and Totten as musical directors really motivating everybody to up their game.

The slowed down arrangements and toy keyboard heavy sound they were doing at the end of Carl's tenure were abysmal. I will never figure out why he did that.
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Ian
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« Reply #9 on: June 24, 2019, 12:05:49 PM »

Well Carl was a very private person and to this day remains a bit of an enigma as a result but my own feeling is that he kind of surrendered in the late 80s and mike kind of took control. It’s well known that Carl didn’t love playing the resorts in Tahoe and Vegas and absented himself from what he perceived as embarrassments like wipe out with the fat boys
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« Reply #10 on: June 25, 2019, 11:21:41 AM »

I actually think the band sounded the way they did toward the end of Carl's tenure was because Carl thought that's how contemporary music should sound...listen to that Wilson-Beckley-Lam album and you'll know what I mean. Some great songs and vocals there, but the instrumentation, arrangements and production are kinda bland on much of it.
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« Reply #11 on: June 25, 2019, 11:22:32 AM »

Another milestone date from this week: June 24, 1974: Capitol released the double-compilation album Endless Summer. On the very same day, Dennis was in the studio, laying down the piano track for "Holy Man". I find it rather ironic that the very day Capitol released a compilation of great, but older songs, very much from another era in rock music - Dennis began recording this inspired, forward-looking piece. Don't get me wrong...I love Endless Summer, and really dig the idea that all these '70s kids (like myself) turned on to the great sounds of the BBs. But unfortunately, its success pretty much buried any newer music the group did. Maybe if "Holy Man" had seen contemporary release as a group single, things would have been different...or maybe not. We'll never know!
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HeyJude
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« Reply #12 on: June 25, 2019, 11:52:22 AM »

I actually think the band sounded the way they did toward the end of Carl's tenure was because Carl thought that's how contemporary music should sound...listen to that Wilson-Beckley-Lam album and you'll know what I mean. Some great songs and vocals there, but the instrumentation, arrangements and production are kinda bland on much of it.

The 90s touring band sound was just the next extension of what had been going on in the 80s, which was paring *down* the extra instrumentation (especially acoustic instruments) and going more streamlined. The 90s band sounded about as good as a band could with a problematic drummer (no offense to Kowalski, who was by all accounts a great drummer in the late 60s and into the 70s), and only two keyboardists doing both "rhythm" piano and then the orchestrated bits, and kind of 1 and 1/2 guitarists once Foskett/Baker left, as Al and Carl's guitars were not at the forefront of the band sound apart from Carl's solos. Carter was always solid in bass.

They added Cannata on sax (and some keyboards) into the 90s, but that was about it. No acoustic pianos on stage. Eventually no Hammond organ. No horn section (which admittedly was only a sporadic thing that stopped by the late 70s for the most part).

I think a combination of contentment/attrition and indeed Carl's preference for that David Foster-Chicago-ish adult contemporary sound did lead to the band sounding the way it did.

Listening to something like the great setlist on the '93 Paramount NYC show, the main problems are the drumming and the tinkly (aka "toy keyboard" as someone else put it) keyboards.

I think the touring band through the end of Carl's life was just playing in a different fan/critic atmosphere as well. The sort of indie/nerd Brian/PetSounds/Smile stuff had only started to be a "thing." I don't think Carl would have found it logical prior to 1998 to either shift the band to a big, lush, ensemble the way Brian did in 1999,  nor to truly drastically change up the setlist to add either later-era or even earlier-era deep cuts. I'm also not sure Carl would have been on board for essentially wiping the slate clean of a bunch of the "live" arrangements he had honed over all those years, and going back to playing the early-mid 60s stuff "just like the record."

Look at mid 90s setlists. They weren't even doing stuff like "Kiss Me Baby" or "Don't Back Down", rarely did even things like "Please Let Me Wonder." It's supremely odd Carl *never* once sang "Good Timin'" on stage for the last 15 years of his touring career.

There were a *few* brief moments where they tried a *few* odd things. For some reason, in pre-Kokomo 1988 they all of a sudden got *crazy* and added "This Whole World", "Forever", and "Caroline No" to the setlist. They didn't even last the year.

I think Carl was locked into the idea that the masses woudln't go for anything but the 90-minute-ish meat-and-potatoes setlist and presentation, outside of a few things here and there. And I think he was partially right. While I've always advocated that it woudln't have ended the Beach Boys' touring career to like swap out five songs now and then for something else, I don't think even a Mike/Bruce 2019 setlist would have gone over the same in a Mike/Carl/Al/Bruce 1995 Beach Boys show, let alone stuff like Brian doing the entirety of PS or Smile, etc.

Apart from the blink-and-you'll-miss-it late 1993 "boxed set tour", about the craziest the touring band got was finally adding the staccato bridge bit to "God Only Knows" after all those years.

Now, I think with some inventiveness and imagination, even in the early-mid 90s, the Beach Boys could have done more interesting things in the studio and in concert. Solo members could have found time to do "passion projects" on the side. They could have done like a one-shot "Pet Sounds" concert for PBS or whatever.
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« Reply #13 on: June 25, 2019, 11:55:51 AM »

Well Carl was a very private person and to this day remains a bit of an enigma as a result but my own feeling is that he kind of surrendered in the late 80s and mike kind of took control. It’s well known that Carl didn’t love playing the resorts in Tahoe and Vegas and absented himself from what he perceived as embarrassments like wipe out with the fat boys

That Dutch 1989 Carl interview is telling; he specifically says he envisions that Mike will still be out there touring after everybody else is gone for one reason or another.

Carl didn't like the casino shows, and in prior years had wanted something more like the band touring less often, maybe every other year, and then they would do more arenas and amphitheaters and less casinos and fairs and whatnot. But that never happened, and Carl continued to do all those gigs.

Even when Carl had more leverage and was more motivated to stand up, he quickly gave in to some demands. Supposedly, one of the conditions of returning in 1982 was to stop booking casino gigs. But a quick look at the touring schedule tells us that didn't last long. He kept the band rehearsed enough to sound solid. But he also pretty much gave in to any elaborate setlist changes eventually.
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« Reply #14 on: June 26, 2019, 06:18:06 AM »

Carl was definitely complicated. I think he often tried to be non confrontational-which was his childhood mo of trying to avoid Murray. He bottled up major disagreements. On the other hand you are probably correct about the reasons the band sounded like that being down him-as musicians I talked to all said he kept command of the band and was confrontational there. I interviewed altbach for my book and he told stories of arguments with Carl-who wanted things done his way and wasn’t happy about mike placing one of his tm buddies in the band without his approval but while Carl took it out on Ron I doubt he confronted mike
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« Reply #15 on: June 26, 2019, 07:26:19 AM »

Well Carl was a very private person and to this day remains a bit of an enigma as a result but my own feeling is that he kind of surrendered in the late 80s and mike kind of took control. It’s well known that Carl didn’t love playing the resorts in Tahoe and Vegas and absented himself from what he perceived as embarrassments like wipe out with the fat boys

Carl was also all but removed from most of Summer In Paradise...he didn't play on it, and most tracks didn't have his vocals either, so that says a lot about his feelings toward the band's direction under Mike's guidance at that time...Carl basically checked out even on a new Beach Boys album, which was his home territory, and let Mike steer it instead. And we know what happened.

And I think that may be one of the common threads during this time to get a wider picture of the whole scene: Carl checked out quite a few times and let Mike be the skipper he always wanted to be. Thus we got SIP, Baywatch, the dancing cheerleaders, etc. Carl chose to be involved or not be involved in various projects, and let the band basically run itself in terms of the concert music.

With Al's ouster and related tensions, and Carl's absence around SIP, combined with Brian's lowest points with Landy just before the courts stepped in, maybe the band and band name should have been put on hiatus until things got sorted out instead of letting things go as they did. The best thing that happened to them around SIP's time frame was when the 2-fers hit the stores along with that GV box set and reminded people just how good they were, and how the music and presentation being given to fans was *not* what this band really was. I think that was something they (or specifically Carl?) realized as well, which led to the box set tour that was sadly too short...People were paying to see the music and deep cuts from the box, not dancers and Mike's schtick and John Stamos. Alas, it didn't last.
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« Reply #16 on: June 26, 2019, 07:30:48 AM »

Carl was definitely complicated. I think he often tried to be non confrontational-which was his childhood mo of trying to avoid Murray. He bottled up major disagreements. On the other hand you are probably correct about the reasons the band sounded like that being down him-as musicians I talked to all said he kept command of the band and was confrontational there. I interviewed altbach for my book and he told stories of arguments with Carl-who wanted things done his way and wasn’t happy about mike placing one of his tm buddies in the band without his approval but while Carl took it out on Ron I doubt he confronted mike

Yet one of the more blatant latter-day confrontations was when Carl vetoed the Paley material, at a time when the band needed new material badly and Brian was actually making music for the band again. It's too big of a backstory to discuss here, but Carl seemed to have more issues with Brian's return than we'll ever know, and had perhaps the biggest "no" vote against Brian in several cases when even Mike was jazzed up to be working with and writing with Brian again.

I really don't get that, and the whole story will perhaps never be told publicly...but there were some deeper tensions between the brothers than we'll probably ever know fully.
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« Reply #17 on: June 26, 2019, 08:21:08 AM »

The late era Carl-Brian relationship is indeed underexplored. I think we have a number of *potential* reasons there were issues, but few firm answers.

It’s worth noting that even after Brian’s extraction from Landy, Brian stayed relatively estranged from the band for the subsequent few years. His last Landy era gig with the touring band was in 1990, and I don’t think he appeared on stage again with the band until 1995 (he made one or a few backstage appearances prior).

I think, however much the band and especially Carl knew the fake autobiography was a result of the abusive situation Brian was in, there were unavoidable tensions and hurt feelings as a result of that book. The entire period *immediately* upon Brian being extracted from Landy is not particularly well documented, so it’s unclear what lingering tensions may have remained.

I think other insiders/experts have mentioned that Landy did a number on Brian turning him against Carl, and there may have been fallout from that situation that never was fully resolved, which would cause issues on both sides of the relationship.

We know Carl did continue to work with Brian in some instances. There are reports of Carl, outside of the 1995 era “reunion” sessions, working on a Brian “Proud Mary” session.

I think Carl just wasn’t quite in the headspace of embracing the 90s Brian sort of “renaissance” among the nerd/indie music press/fandom. Carl was cutting David Foster/Peter Cetera-sounding stuff with Beckley and Lamm in the late 80s and into the early-mid 90s. I can imagine the idea of doing an album of retro-sounding songs, with a sometimes heavy contribution from Andy Paley, may have given Carl pause. Some have tried to parse Carl’s reported negative reaction to those circa 1995 “reunion” sessions by suggesting he didn’t nix the material in general nor cancel the project, but simply had more nitpicky issues with the backing tracks, and not doing further work on those sessions may have been more down to the (odd) decision to work on “Stars and Stripes” instead, and then by the end of 1996 into 1997, Carl had his health issues. Yet, even trying to soften Carl’s stance on the Paley material, it does seem odd that he would just “go along to get along” working on numerous ill-advised, tacky Mike-centric projects like “Summer in Paradise” and various one-off singles, yet waited until the band was working on what most observers would say was far more *substantive* work on those Paley tracks to them voice displeasure with the material.

One of the only direct quotes from a band member regarding Carl’s take on that Paley material came from an alternate edit of Al Jardine’s 1999/2000 Goldmine interview that was published in “Record Collector”; I can’t seem to find it anywhere on line. But as I recall, he indicated it was Carl who had some sort of issue with the material. Subsequently, Peter Ames Carlin got Mike on record in the 2000s saying something to the effect of his being “willing” to work on the material even if not super enthusiastic about it. Bruce Johnston told Howie Edelson that he (Bruce) felt the band was doing Brian a *favor* by being at those Paley sessions, and indicated he didn’t feel it was prime Brian material. Weird stuff from the band who was still doing “Summer in Paradise” material in concert.

Also, I think a big part of Carl and the other members’ attitudes towards Brian and Brian’s ability and potential was down to the band still being relatively estranged from Brian. They were obviously in various forms of contact at various times. But they weren’t all seeing him on a daily basis, and weren’t seeing what sort of musical stamina Brian had either in the studio or out on the road. So when it was pitched at some point in the later 90s for Brian to do a “Pet Sounds” tour with the band, I can’t entirely blame some of the band members *if* they were a bit skeptical of what Brian could do out on tour, either in terms of vocal performance or being able to sustain himself for a full tour. Obviously, though, they could have investigated this by actually working more with Brian and investigating and testing and rehearsing to see what could work.

By 1995, Brian *was* showing he was able to be quite productive in the studio. He released *two* albums in 1995, and the band was also surely aware by 1995 that Brian not only had those hand full of Paley songs prepped for the band to work on, but also that Brian had written and recorded *dozens* of songs with Paley.

The only participants in those Paley sessions with the group whom I’ve never heard anything but enthusiasm for, besides Brian of course, is Al Jardine (and Matt Jardine). Mike seemed cautious but willing (and on-site reports of the actual sessions indicate Mike was being weirdly sarcastic/antagonistic), Bruce felt he was doing Brian a favor even being there, and Carl, who also did participate, apparently had some sort of misgiving about some element or elements.

Why were the band members (excepting Al in some cases, who apparently started disagreeing with various band/Mike decisions in the 90s) willing to let Mike have his way with the band’s name and its direction, yet seemed *more* apprehensive about going back to a “Pet Sounds” format of Brian writing material largely with an outside writer, in some cases even cutting backing tracks, and then having the band cut vocals? Was it skepticism about Brian’s condition? Lingering animosity towards Brian? Longstanding skepticism about an *outside* collaborator steering a full album?

Andy Paley said in one interview that the Beach Boys could have cut full vocals for an entire album’s worth of material in two days, he was that impressed with the band’s vocal ability and also obviously confident in the material he had written with Brian.
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« Reply #18 on: June 26, 2019, 08:47:13 AM »

Carl was barely there on Summer In Paradise, so I wouldn't say he did much work on it since he's hardly a presence, even vocally and didn't play a note of music on the album.

My point to consider was more involving the family issues between the brothers, and involving their mother. There is one interview with Brian where some of it came boiling to the surface, but it's not worth getting into here or now in this topic. But that stands as one of the only public airings of this kind of tension between them, including most of the books which barely mention this element, although for a more in-depth look at individual situations between them at this exact time look no further than Carlin's book. He describes Carl's either passive-aggressive behavior through actions or outright negativity toward Brian during these years, including the proposed Pet Sounds tour, and other instances where Carl's was the "no" vote on things that would have involved Brian.

One thing to make extra clear, and it's documented publicly and not-so-publicly. Brian absolutely wanted to return to making music with the Beach Boys again. As soon as he was done with Landy, he told several around him including Don Was that the thing he wanted to do most was go back to being a Beach Boy. And Brian did pay out of his own pocket to record all those songs with Paley and Don Was, which included Mike, and which he hoped would or could be used for potential Beach Boys tracks on upcoming projects.

Keep in mind, the Beach Boys at this time had A. No material to speak of and B. No label or even label interest. That cannot be stressed enough.

So Brian comes back and offers a pretty big batch of songs and songs in process, Mike is involved no matter how enthusiastic or sarcastic, and this at a time when the band had zip-zero-nada in terms of actual new original music to potentially put on an album.

Brian invited them to his house for a listening session, just like in the "old days" Mike has been longing for now for decades, and what does the band do? They all bail out on the invitation. As much of a "f*** you" as I'd assume it would feel to Brian after he openly said he wanted to get back to making music as a Beach Boy after Landy. And Carl was as much apart of that as anyone.

What happens in return? Carl tries to set Brian up with an indie artist to "co-produce" potential Beach Boys tracks...a scenario that was as ill-planned and as doomed to fail as it sounds. And that's eactly what happened.

So Brian felt like the one thing he wanted to do was getting the proverbial middle finger from his own bandmates and his own brother, yet he was being set up to record and write and produce with someone he didn't know and never met, a lot on the shoulder of Carl's planning, while he had been paying his own money to record and demo several dozen new songs in the studio which the band couldn't even be bothered to come by his house for a few hours to hear.

That's shitty. So just don't forget or leave out how there was more to even the more public musical side of the story at this time, not to mention the relationship between brothers that rarely gets in the public sphere.
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« Reply #19 on: June 26, 2019, 09:10:01 AM »

In terms of Carl's position on material like "Summer in Paradise" and things of that ilk, I was speaking more to his signing off on the project. There's no evidence Carl and Al tried to block it, and indeed Carl did participate in some of the sessions, and Al came on even *later* in the project to add some vocals as well.

So I was speaking more to Carl's "go along to get along" sort of approach. However much he tried to side-step participation in some projects, or make cameos rather than participate fully, etc., he did participate and didn't block those Mike-centric projects/decisions.

Obviously, even if Al and Carl *had* banded together to block something like SIP, it would have opened up a huge can of worms and it would have been nothing but headaches. I think both Carl and Al decided to just placate Mike, which was easier to do since they (Al and Carl) clearly had no strong motivation to work on a bunch of their own solo passion projects, nor as far as we know try to assert themselves artistically in the band via bringing a bunch of new songs or trying to spearhead a new album project. I think they (surely rightly) saw it as easier to let Mike get his deal out of his system, meanwhile they could avoid blowing the whole thing up and throwing away the money-making machine that was the touring band. I think Carl just was more passive and more quickly gave over to Mike, whereas Al apparently made a bit more of a fuss at certain points (resulting in the temporarily falling out circa 1992 that Mike described in an interview at the time, and which probably ultimately contributed to setting the stage for Al getting edged out by 1998).

I believe Al spoke to Jon Stebbins for his David Marks book, and in that book it's explained that Mike wanted to produce the BB tours, Al disagreed, and Carl didn't back Al, which created a bit of, as Al told Stebbins, "estrangement" between Al and Carl.

The Brian-Carl relationship, both personal and professional, is obviously very complicated with plenty of info out there (and plenty *not* out there), and this certainly in turn impacted the goings-on with the band.

What's a bit easier to at least grasp some additional circumstantial evidence about is Carl's general attitude towards band politics and artistic decisions, some of which involved Brian and others that didn't.

What was going on circa 1995 with the Brian/Paley stuff was obviously imbued with plenty of interpersonal stuff to do with Brian, but it also involved a bunch of band politics largely outside of Brian, and we saw this play out in 1997/98 with the Mike/Carl, Carl/Al, and Mike/Al relationships all being tested and strained.
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« Reply #20 on: June 26, 2019, 09:24:32 AM »

Further to the band's participation (or lack thereof) in the Brian/Paley sessions, what indicates not only a Carl-Brian relationship strain but also some skepticism and antagonism potentially from Mike and Bruce on the issue is that Mike, Bruce, and Carl all did participate in resoundingly poorly-received (critically and commercially) projects in the immediate few years prior to the Brian/Paley timeframe, yet seemed much more skeptical/apprehensive/pensive about those Brian/Paley songs. I discount Al from this to some degree both because he was the *least* involved of the four in stuff like "SIP", and also is the only one not known to have voiced any skepticism or negativity about the Brian/Paley material (indeed, in one case, there was that "Dancing the Night Away" session that Al appeared to not even get an invite to!).

How much their personal relationships with Brian impacted their varying degrees of skepticism and eventual partial rejection of the Paley material, and how much other reasons (weird personal ticks and nitpicks, just plain bad artistic vision, laziness, etc.) is difficult to say. The easy answer is that all of it was at play.
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« Reply #21 on: June 26, 2019, 11:09:49 AM »

Carl's attitude around this time period will always be subject for speculation (unless an insider speaks up about it), but I have a hunch that a major contributing factor could be that The BBs didn't want to deal with an outside collaborator having a major contribution to a new BBs project from a "ground up" writing standpoint, and this may be due to the Landy crap that The BBs had to deal with for about a decade straight at that point.

Landy forced himself (and his girlfriend) into the writing/creative process and that was a giant pain in the ass, to say the least, from a creative/personal standpoint to all those involved. The band understandably were probably so, so, so mentally exhausted at the idea of a collaborator bringing their opinions and political/monetary expectations without the band "vetting" said collaborator in the manner of their choosing ahead of time.

So I'm guessing that The BBs (mainly Mike and Carl, I'm guessing, and perhaps for different reasons) just simply felt unhappy with the idea of an outside collaborator picked by Brian having too much say/sway. This is not in any way meant as a dig against Paley. I don't know how much say/sway Paley was given or wanted for this project. Paley's material was brilliant IMO, and I certainly have no idea what the songwriting/creative politics were between Brian/Paley, or Paley/The BBs at that point in time.

But just the very *idea* of someone else from the outside being brought in *yet again* and not on *The BBs* terms might be what bugged Carl and Mike so much. Yes the whole band went along with various outside collaborators on the BB85 album, but that was probably a series of decisions that were voted on and discussed internally before any material was worked on. I'm guessing the Brian/Paley situation was already in the works already and then proposed to The BBs without their input from the ground up, and maybe that just bugged them.

One can surmise the attitude from Carl/Mike towards the Paley stuff might have been similar to Mike's attitude/feelings about Joe Thomas on TWGMTR in a general sense.

But I would also tend to think that even if this theory is true (or partially true), this is just one piece of the puzzle as to why Carl felt this way at the time. I think sh*t was just complicated as f***, and relationships were strained in many, many ways, and I would not be surprised if Carl's health was affected by all of the Landy stuff (and if his health impacted his decisions around this time too).
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« Reply #22 on: June 26, 2019, 11:49:56 AM »

I’m not sure how much specifically the Landy co-writing issue impacted the band’s view of Andy Paley.

Certainly, the band observed as the 80s wore on that Landy was wedging himself into Brian’s career in a “creative” way, as far as wanting to co-write and/or producer/executive produce, etc.

But this really had to be more of an observational thing, and not so much something that regularly impacted the band on a creative/commercial release level.

Landy had a few co-writes on the BB ’85 album, and one co-write on “Still Crusin’.” And he shoehorned his way into the “25th Anniversary” TV special in 1986. Not a great deal else beyond that. Most of Landy’s overreaching was on solo Brian product.

Yes, Mike has said in interviews that Landy wouldn’t “produce” Brian unless he (Landy) was involved as a co-writer or producer. But I don’t sense the band actively turned down vigorous attempts on Brian’s part to work with the band simply due to not wanting Landy around. They did *allow* Landy’s name to appear on BB project (certainly begrudgingly), and Gary Usher’s 1986 diary on working with Brian strongly indicates that Landy was moving Brian away from the group and was going as “solo” as he could to avoid having to deal with the other Beach Boys having a say. So I’d say Landy moved Brian away from the band due to “Landy” more than the band rejected Brian.

Also, I think there were other “creative” concerns the band had, back in the Landy era, with giving over a whole project to Brian. Again, in the Usher book, it seems Brian kind of wanted to produce an album himself and was kind of edged out of it. Then Usher and Melcher were vying to produce the “next album.”

Ultimately, there really was no “next album” in that era. Melcher eventually continued to produce a number of one-off singles for the band, and later on did “Summer in Paradise.”

If the band viewed the Andy Paley situation in 1995 with skepticism, I don’t think it was so much directly to do with Landy. Certainly, the whole Landy debacle didn’t leave the band *more* ready to trust what was thrown their way concerning Brian. But some of those ’95 issues may have been essentially a variation on the beef Mike had in 2012, that being Brian working with an outside collaborator (Paley in ’95, Joe Thomas in 2012) and doing so seemingly to the predominant *exclusion* of writing with Mike. And then the commensurate royalties would then also go to that outside collaborator. So I’d say if they viewed Paley with skepticism, it was more of the same thing that happened going back to the 60s with Usher, Christian, Asher, Parks, etc. Add to that the lingering animosity the band may have had towards Brian due to his book, and some general ongoing chips on their shoulders about Brian not participating in touring, and then also the band’s general lack of motivation to write, record, and release albums in that era, and you’re left with, at best, middling enthusiasm for the Paley material.

If one wants to understand how Joe Thomas did in 2012 what folks like Usher, Melcher, Paley, and Don Was *couldn’t* do in prior years, namely make a full tour and album (and accompanying live albums, TV specials, and home video releases) with the full reunited band happen, I think one important factor is Joe Thomas being a major bankroller of the thing. Those other guys in the past were looking to jump start things without a full contingent of material, usually without firm record deals, and wanted to just slide into a producer-for-hire role (I’m generalizing here of course), and maybe exercise some amount of A&R on the material. Conversely, Joe Thomas had the money and organizational skills to be, as Howie Edelson once put it, the guy clapping his hands together and *telling* the band “okay, here’s what we’re gonna do.” He found the money, the infrastructure, and had a huge bag full of Brian Wilson songs ready to go, all earmarked as “waiting for the Beach Boys.”
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« Reply #23 on: June 26, 2019, 12:02:37 PM »

It's worth noting that Carl *did* take issue with Landy's lyrics, at least in once published case. In that 1989 Dutch interview, he seemed to mock Landy's lyrics on "In My Car." This interview was done while Landy was still with Brian, and Brian was still working with the band on some projects. That was about as directly confrontational as Carl would get in interviews. And even then, he kind of seemed to at least attempt to play off his criticism as kind of being more bemused at the bad lyrics.

But really, while I'm not *in any way* endorsing either Landy being with Brian at all nor Landy's lyrics, I can't really say objectively that "I'm master of my fate, when I accelerate" is like the *worst* lyric the band ever released. I mean, Carl signed off a few years later on releasing "Summer of Love", and had previously *sang* on a song with horrendous lyrics like "Hey Little Tomboy."

I think the band rightly saw that Landy was bad news, and dinging his lyrics was just kind of an extra tangential thing to point out. The lyrics being there in the first place were a symptom of a much bigger *life* problem.

The only specifics we've heard even tangentially about what Carl thought of the '95 Paley stuff is that he didn't like the backing track to "Soul Searchin"", meaning the re-cut Don Was-produced backing track that he sang to (and that we've never even heard!). At some point *prior* to Carl's death, the first attempt was made to take the Was-produced vocals and graft them back on to the first Paley-produced (and performed) backing track. Otherwise, I don't think the band seemed to have a lot of specific issues with the quality/content of what Paley was writing, especially since they probably didn't know whether a given element was from Andy or from Brian.

It's worth searching out the Cindy Lee Berryhill first-hand account of the group session for the Paley songs, from late 1995. You can pick up some of the passive-agreesive weird stuff going on with the band, probably having as much to do with how they felt about Brian as they did about Paley. At one point, Mike asks who wrote the material, with the general consensus being that it was far-fetched at that stage that Mike had no idea who had written "Soul Searchin'", especially considering, as I recall, both Don Was and Andy Paley were *in attendance* at the session.
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« Reply #24 on: June 27, 2019, 11:02:47 AM »

Obviously, even if Al and Carl *had* banded together to block something like SIP, it would have opened up a huge can of worms and it would have been nothing but headaches. I think both Carl and Al decided to just placate Mike, which was easier to do since they (Al and Carl) clearly had no strong motivation to work on a bunch of their own solo passion projects, nor as far as we know try to assert themselves artistically in the band via bringing a bunch of new songs or trying to spearhead a new album project. I think they (surely rightly) saw it as easier to let Mike get his deal out of his system, meanwhile they could avoid blowing the whole thing up and throwing away the money-making machine that was the touring band. I think Carl just was more passive and more quickly gave over to Mike, whereas Al apparently made a bit more of a fuss at certain points (resulting in the temporarily falling out circa 1992 that Mike described in an interview at the time, and which probably ultimately contributed to setting the stage for Al getting edged out by 1998).


I think the notion of doing things to placate Mike - especially in this specific period of the 1990's - is a component of the band's inner politics that would serve to explain a lot, or at least give some perspective if the question is asked "why did they do THAT?" on any number of their ridiculous appearances or projects.

Not to stir controversy but I also have had the opinion for a long time that the decision to offer Mike the name license so he could bill himself and whatever backing band he carried as The Beach Boys was an attempt to not only placate Mike, but effectively allow Brian to cut ties with Mike and stop dealing with him and his various demands, gripes, legal actions, etc. Unfortunately that continued to be an issue even after Mike was placated...but that's another story. Once Carl was gone, there wasn't as deep of a connection to the origins of The Beach Boys possible on stage, and I think allowing Mike to get that license knowing there would not be a "Wilson" on stage at a Beach Boys concert in the foreseeable future was an attempt to placate Mike and his wishes and say "ok, here's what you wanted, go out and do your thing...". Until Brian started touring again with what was a better band, a better selection of material, and a bigger draw for fans, Mike and his various bands floundered to put it mildly...and that right there can also be explained by noting there was no Carl or no one acting as Carl to demand the quality (or a reasonable fascimile thereof) of the musical presentation through rehearsing or just being there for quality control regarding the live shows. Brian and his band at the time were simply blowing Mike's "Beach Boys" and his corporate doppelganger bands out of the water. So Mike started in with the legal actions again.

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