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Author Topic: This week in BB history June 20-30  (Read 4399 times)
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« Reply #25 on: June 27, 2019, 11:10:52 AM »

Regarding Carl's stepping back a bit, it's sad but of course his health has to be factored in, and considered as just how much he was able to do. I believe when the whole failed project of bringing Sean O'Hagan in as a possible producer with Brian, and the Richard Branson deal, Carl had been receiving cancer treatments, which could have affected his involvement in various issues.

But I agree, even prior to that, Carl kind of checked out and it felt like Mike was being given the captain's hat he'd coveted for years in terms of steering the band.
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« Reply #26 on: June 27, 2019, 03:47:53 PM »

Yeah-there is no doubt that 1990-1997 was really a series of missed opportunities.  The potential was there for something great-but somehow all we got was SIP and Stars and Stripes!!!! Orange Crate Art was the best LP from that stretch of time.  Such a shame that Carl's last recording years were wasted so greatly on mostly mediocre crap.  I do love "Like a Brother" though-it's a hard song to listen to now that he is gone without getting a little teary.
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« Reply #27 on: June 27, 2019, 05:32:01 PM »

Yeah-there is no doubt that 1990-1997 was really a series of missed opportunities.  The potential was there for something great-but somehow all we got was SIP and Stars and Stripes!!!! Orange Crate Art was the best LP from that stretch of time.  Such a shame that Carl's last recording years were wasted so greatly on mostly mediocre crap.  I do love "Like a Brother" though-it's a hard song to listen to now that he is gone without getting a little teary.

I agree about "Like A Brother" for sure Ian. I also think "I Wish For You" is even better to be honest, especially now as a father.
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« Reply #28 on: June 28, 2019, 06:36:58 AM »

Regarding Carl's work on the "Beckley Lamm Wilson" album, while this wouldn't completely save the material, a ground-up re-recording pretty much re-doing everything but the vocals would help quite a bit.

I semi-rediscovered "They're Only Words" when it was playing on the SiriusXM channel last year; I think that one's probably the best one. That would have been a good one to partially re-record with the BBs backing Carl or something.

Even just a remix would help that Carl material to some degree. But re-recordings from scratch with more organic, acoustic instrumentation, and then with Carl's vocals grafted back on, would be interesting to hear and surely less "90s Adult Contemporary" sounding.

The best way to revisit that material would probably be to rework those Carl tracks along with other as-yet-unheard Carl demos/recordings. I've been convinced for quite some time now that his estate HAS to be sitting on some demos and/or other unreleased material that Carl worked on in the 80s and 90s. Obviously, there's some Carl-centric stuff in the BB vaults. But for one random example, I believe there's a post-BB '85 interview where Carl references having written a bunch of additional songs with Robert White Johnson. Surely some demos are around of that stuff. And who knows, maybe some of *that* stuff sounds kind of drippy and AC too. But there's gotta be some interesting Carl stuff to work with. Carl singing background on "This Is Elvis" can't be as good as it gets.
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« Reply #29 on: June 28, 2019, 03:02:19 PM »

Thanks to Ian to create these cool interesting threads. 3D It brings goodness to BBs message boards.
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« Reply #30 on: June 29, 2019, 03:15:17 AM »

Ian, besides the Beach Boys you're an Rolling Stones expert as well, iirc. Do you know if there are any pictures of the BBs and Stones during these times in the 60s when they shared a bill? I'm not talking about the ending of the T.A.M.I. show of course where all the acts got on stage together. Or any stories about them meeting?


EDIT: Damn! This was supposed to go into the "My website"-thread. Please ignore, I'll post it there.
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« Reply #31 on: June 29, 2019, 06:31:01 AM »

Regarding Carl's work on the "Beckley Lamm Wilson" album, while this wouldn't completely save the material, a ground-up re-recording pretty much re-doing everything but the vocals would help quite a bit.

I semi-rediscovered "They're Only Words" when it was playing on the SiriusXM channel last year; I think that one's probably the best one. That would have been a good one to partially re-record with the BBs backing Carl or something.

Even just a remix would help that Carl material to some degree. But re-recordings from scratch with more organic, acoustic instrumentation, and then with Carl's vocals grafted back on, would be interesting to hear and surely less "90s Adult Contemporary" sounding.

The best way to revisit that material would probably be to rework those Carl tracks along with other as-yet-unheard Carl demos/recordings. I've been convinced for quite some time now that his estate HAS to be sitting on some demos and/or other unreleased material that Carl worked on in the 80s and 90s. Obviously, there's some Carl-centric stuff in the BB vaults. But for one random example, I believe there's a post-BB '85 interview where Carl references having written a bunch of additional songs with Robert White Johnson. Surely some demos are around of that stuff. And who knows, maybe some of *that* stuff sounds kind of drippy and AC too. But there's gotta be some interesting Carl stuff to work with. Carl singing background on "This Is Elvis" can't be as good as it gets.

I hear what you're saying, but I think even if this is done, it would be nothing more than a curio. First of all, even though the album was released after Carl's passing, I have to assume that his songs at the very least were probably at least close to finished (if not fully finished) before he died and therefore I think he got the songs right in his mind. So for someone, heck, even Brian, Mike and Al, going in an rejiggering one of these songs would kinda be disrespectful in my opinion unless it was just a straight up cover.

I just think that these "fix up this album or this project" thing that's been going on kind wanders into some weird territory. Like how last year Bowie's Never Let Me Down was somewhat re-recorded to sound "less '80s" because David had talked about from time to time, and had even had one of the tracks remixed for a compilation release in 2008. I've heard differing things about Bowie's involvement in actually getting the project off the ground, but at the least we know recording didn't start until long after Bowie's passing. And now that we have this different version, is it good? I suppose that's in the eye of the beholder. But the problem for me is that Bowie never got to hear any of these re-workings, so I can't take it as any more "definitive" than the original 1987 version. But perhaps it's not supposed to be definitive, but instead is just supposed to be another view of the material in different clothing as it were.

Now perhaps I'm misunderstanding, and if so, I do apologize. And I will say, if the guys ever did another album or something, or if there was some Carl rarities thing and they wanted to amend what I assume to be the somewhat unfinished "It Could Be Anything" (also known as "Where We Are") I think that would probably be okay, if they were given the okay by Carl's kids. But then I go back to this...aren't there better things to do? Probably.
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« Reply #32 on: June 30, 2019, 02:54:20 AM »

Well, when it comes to unreleased material of Carl, I so wished there was a recording of him and his father-in-law Dean Martin. But I'm afraid that if they sang together there probably doesn't eist a recording
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« Reply #33 on: June 30, 2019, 05:36:36 AM »

First time I really ever thought about the Carl/Dino possibility....that would be amazing! There has to be better stuff floating around in the vaults then this is Elvis.
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« Reply #34 on: July 01, 2019, 10:06:21 AM »

Regarding Carl's work on the "Beckley Lamm Wilson" album, while this wouldn't completely save the material, a ground-up re-recording pretty much re-doing everything but the vocals would help quite a bit.

I semi-rediscovered "They're Only Words" when it was playing on the SiriusXM channel last year; I think that one's probably the best one. That would have been a good one to partially re-record with the BBs backing Carl or something.

Even just a remix would help that Carl material to some degree. But re-recordings from scratch with more organic, acoustic instrumentation, and then with Carl's vocals grafted back on, would be interesting to hear and surely less "90s Adult Contemporary" sounding.

The best way to revisit that material would probably be to rework those Carl tracks along with other as-yet-unheard Carl demos/recordings. I've been convinced for quite some time now that his estate HAS to be sitting on some demos and/or other unreleased material that Carl worked on in the 80s and 90s. Obviously, there's some Carl-centric stuff in the BB vaults. But for one random example, I believe there's a post-BB '85 interview where Carl references having written a bunch of additional songs with Robert White Johnson. Surely some demos are around of that stuff. And who knows, maybe some of *that* stuff sounds kind of drippy and AC too. But there's gotta be some interesting Carl stuff to work with. Carl singing background on "This Is Elvis" can't be as good as it gets.

I hear what you're saying, but I think even if this is done, it would be nothing more than a curio. First of all, even though the album was released after Carl's passing, I have to assume that his songs at the very least were probably at least close to finished (if not fully finished) before he died and therefore I think he got the songs right in his mind. So for someone, heck, even Brian, Mike and Al, going in an rejiggering one of these songs would kinda be disrespectful in my opinion unless it was just a straight up cover.

I just think that these "fix up this album or this project" thing that's been going on kind wanders into some weird territory. Like how last year Bowie's Never Let Me Down was somewhat re-recorded to sound "less '80s" because David had talked about from time to time, and had even had one of the tracks remixed for a compilation release in 2008. I've heard differing things about Bowie's involvement in actually getting the project off the ground, but at the least we know recording didn't start until long after Bowie's passing. And now that we have this different version, is it good? I suppose that's in the eye of the beholder. But the problem for me is that Bowie never got to hear any of these re-workings, so I can't take it as any more "definitive" than the original 1987 version. But perhaps it's not supposed to be definitive, but instead is just supposed to be another view of the material in different clothing as it were.

Now perhaps I'm misunderstanding, and if so, I do apologize. And I will say, if the guys ever did another album or something, or if there was some Carl rarities thing and they wanted to amend what I assume to be the somewhat unfinished "It Could Be Anything" (also known as "Where We Are") I think that would probably be okay, if they were given the okay by Carl's kids. But then I go back to this...aren't there better things to do? Probably.

I think releasing Carl material in general, especially as a “solo” type release, already puts it pretty firmly in the category of “curio.”

In terms of “Beckley Lamm Wilson” material, I was outlining a scenario where it’s pre-supposed someone is out to re-work the material. That’s a big “if” of course, but *if* that was a goal in any way, I think some of the spitballing I did in the previous post would achieve a good alternate way of listening to that material, and arguably better. But when it comes to trying to put out new Carl product, remixing and/or re-recording his “Beckley Lamm Wilson” tracks wouldn’t be at the top of my list. At best, they could reconstitute a few of those tracks to fill out a new Carl comp or something.   

While I would always want to honor Carl’s wishes as much as possible, as well as his estate’s wishes, I have to be frank and say I’m not hugely invested in doing either if it means *not releasing anything*, which seems to be the current setting they’re working under as far as Carl solo material, and I’m not so sure they’ve ever pushed hard on their end for achival BB releases, though they certainly seem to sign off on them.

We’ve already had *tons* of archival releases without Carl’s approval since his death. Indeed, in the case of putting out “Soulful Old Man Sunshine” in 1998, it was often pointed out that, sadly, we likely would NOT have gotten that song  *at all* had Carl still been alive, as he supposedly vetoed the song from the 1993 “Good Vibrations” set and didn’t want the song released. Similarly, all the versions of “Soul Searchin’” we’ve heard were constructed without Carl’s approval. (Though in that case it was constructed to conform to the best approximation of what it was believed Carl *did* want; I’m not knocking the work done on that song to reconstruct it; it’s what has saved the song most likely).

The estate has put next to zero effort into doing anything with Carl solo in the last 21 years since his death. I should of course point out the possibility that they truly have *nothing* to work with. But I’m *very* skeptical of that. I find it very hard to believe there isn’t an album (if not numerous) worth of demos or other Carl tracks that the estate could release in any number of forms, whether as-is, or with new overdubs, or both. But as far as I can tell, the estate signs off on BB releases, and has largely “gone along to get along” much like Carl did, continuing to support Mike’s license, and keep things streamlined and keep the revenue coming in. The only example I’ve heard where Carl’s estate put some extra effort into going *against* someone else to make a music release happen is when they voted *for* the “Love and Mercy” soundtrack a few years ago.

But even with something like “This Is Elvis”, it appears it wasn’t the estate that instigated that, but rather Jerry Schilling and Billy Hinsche. Why isn’t Carl’s estate trying to push for something, anything? They’re not even, as far as I know, trying to lobby BRI or Capitol/UMe to do a Carl-themed compilation of his best BB and solo tracks. Not even just digitally. The only things we’ve had to document Carl’s life is Billy Hinsche’s independently produced documentary (more a compilation of fond reminiscing from colleagues and friends and family), and that Carl biography from a few years ago which apparently got pretty much ZERO cooperation from most friends/family/colleagues.

We can’t even say how much the estate’s reticence on this topic is due to some sort of draconian edict Carl laid down prior to his death to not put *anything* out by him or *about* him, or if they’re just not motivated to do so. Either way, fans are getting older and dying off. Why isn’t more being released for the intrinsic historical and musical value it has? I mean, we still have fans hoarding 50 years of BB photographs and not sharing them. Why? We’re all going to be dead and then nobody will care.

I’ve digressed of course, but back to the issue of rejiggering things postmortem, I don’t think re-working Carl material that has already been released would be a huge component of doing some sort of Carl release. But I’m not opposed to it, and I don’t think doing so to some Carl tracks would be any sort of huge slippery slope to tarnishing his work or anything.

As to the question of “are there better things to do?”, I’d say not particularly when we’re talking about the Beach Boys. The touring groups are doing what they’re doing and that’s not really the heart of fandom in my mind any more. They’re not doing anything together in the studio, and the separate solo studio material hasn’t been particularly substantive of late. The archives are where it’s at now; that’s what keeps this whole thing going. And part of that is whatever is buried in Carl’s garage.
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« Reply #35 on: July 01, 2019, 12:00:12 PM »

I don't know the in's and out's of the Beckley-Lamm-Wilson material as it isn't high on my interest list, which is why I'm asking and speculating:

Could it be that material hasn't or won't come out because of who owns and controls the songs and recordings? Carl's two trio-mates in the project have publishing deals of their own, with other labels. Maybe Carl and/or his estate never had the kind of control over the songs or ownership of the tapes enough to decide to do anything with them. We get a lot of Brian's material because he either paid for the sessions and has control of the tapes and songs, as do many of the Beach Boys tapes and songs fall under BRI control because that's how BRI did things, and how Brian and the BB's did things dating back to the 60's.

Not that I'd want to see something from Beckley-Lamm-Wilson get the "Free As A Bird" treatment ultimately because it's barely related to the Beach Boys and it's not Carl alone as the Lennon tapes had been (and the material isn't that strong to begin with IMO), but maybe due to those others involved the Wilson estate can't simply OK a release on their own.
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« Reply #36 on: July 01, 2019, 12:22:33 PM »

I don't know the in's and out's of the Beckley-Lamm-Wilson material as it isn't high on my interest list, which is why I'm asking and speculating:

Could it be that material hasn't or won't come out because of who owns and controls the songs and recordings? Carl's two trio-mates in the project have publishing deals of their own, with other labels. Maybe Carl and/or his estate never had the kind of control over the songs or ownership of the tapes enough to decide to do anything with them. We get a lot of Brian's material because he either paid for the sessions and has control of the tapes and songs, as do many of the Beach Boys tapes and songs fall under BRI control because that's how BRI did things, and how Brian and the BB's did things dating back to the 60's.

Not that I'd want to see something from Beckley-Lamm-Wilson get the "Free As A Bird" treatment ultimately because it's barely related to the Beach Boys and it's not Carl alone as the Lennon tapes had been (and the material isn't that strong to begin with IMO), but maybe due to those others involved the Wilson estate can't simply OK a release on their own.

There could very well be ownership issues with the “Beckley Lamm Wilson” material that would prevent Carl’s estate from independently doing anything with that material. I think deals could easily be struck if the interest from Carl’s estate or BRI was there to, say, graft new backing onto one of Carl’s tracks. But I would imagine the label and/or some sort of partnership owns that material.

But I haven't meant to overemphasize the "Beckley..." material. One or two songs would be worth rejiggering in my opinion (mainly "They're Only Words", which I think does deserve a bit of a relaunch in some form). Otherwise, it's a fine late era testament to Carl's vocal prowess, and not much else. 

What I’ve been talking about is privately-recorded Carl material. Not that that would necessarily be free of any potential claims from labels. But if there are, say, a bunch of 1987 or 1990 Carl home demos, I’d guess the estate would probably have full ownership/purview when it comes to that material.

The main point, though, is that nobody is pushing to do any of this stuff. I’ve always laid out the caveat that we don’t know what exists outside of the BRI vaults (and even then we obviously aren’t privy to everything). But I find it very hard to believe there’s nothing in the way of Carl material that the estate holds, and/or could track down with some leg work. Again, I point to the post BB’85 tracks Carl said he had written with Robert White Johnson. Johnson’s name is on one “Beckley Lamm Wilson” track, so there has to be other tracks. Maybe some have demos, others don’t. If Carl’s estate has absolutely *zip*, not a *single* cassette tape or reel or DAT or anything, no manuscripts or lyric pages or anything, then I guess I’d at least like to hear that from them. But if there *is* material, then let people hear it. Apart from the “Beckley….” album, we have very little post-1983/Youngblood Carl material. A few tracks on BB ’85, and a few leads on tracks after that.
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« Reply #37 on: July 01, 2019, 12:32:37 PM »

Other than the Bowie content described in this thread, are there any other examples of an artist hating backing tracks/production of an album so much that they actually re-recorded elements of a released song (but left in the original vocals), and then newly released that new version? It's gotta be rare.

I know some Ozzy solo albums did this, but this was due to some contractual thing where they didn't want to pay off (or deal with) other musicians getting credit and money.

I just can't in a million years see it happening with the Like a Brother album. Firstly because IMO none of the backing tracks are offensively bad, some of them are just kinda mediocre. Secondly, it would seem that to do such would be to slap in the face the producers who originally worked on the album, literally like saying "your work sucked so much, we're going to go to huge efforts to re-record the backing tracks". Stranger things have happened, but it seems next to impossible for anything like this to happen, and that's not to even get into the idea that there wouldn't exactly be a ton of interest in a project like this either.

I know some people have suggested doing the same with the BB's SIP album.

I suppose if anything like that were to ever happen with SIP and/or Like a Brother, it would maybe be a random one-off for a single song, and marketed as a "reimagination" or something like that. Sort of how Sail Plane Song got (2) new versions where Mark/Alan made creative decisions to tweak and add sonic ideas to that song which was quite a minimal demo to start with. The idea (I assume) was to imagine what the song might have sounded like if Brian had spent more time on it in the studio in the late '60s. I happen to quite like those tweaked Sail Plane Song  versions, since they don't "replace" the original, which is available to listen to anytime. I find them interesting, I know some people aren't fans though.

It's quite different to think of redoing an entire already-released album in that way though. That would really seem to be more of a "statement" *against* the Like a Brother original album, and since that album was (partly) Carl's baby, I just don't see people making that decision for him, let alone getting the other artists on the album to go along with it too.

That said... clearly, people behind the scenes in BBs world (mainly Mark and Alan) seem to be thinking of new, creative and interesting ways to release "new" BBs material... either by digging REALLY deep and excavating stuff that wasn't known to exist before, or simply by thinking outside the box for ways to show the world that a particular song or fragment deserves some love, be it finding new ways to edit content to make more of a "song" out of what would otherwise be a tiny snippet.  I am a fan of this mindset for sure, and I'd happily welcome most any idea (including a Like a Brother remix/reimagination) if something like that were to happen.
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« Reply #38 on: July 01, 2019, 12:46:31 PM »

Yeah, I think the ideas with the "Beckley...." material have probably been greatly overblown at this stage. What I envisioned was more along the lines of a new Carl collection put together by the estate that included demos and unreleased tracks, and then maybe, especially if they've already added any new elements to anything, *maybe* reworking one or two of the "Beckley..." tracks.

It would be something like the Beach Boys reworking "Daybreak Over the Ocean" for the TWGMTR album; just partly re-recording certain elements to integrate it into a new project.

As for artists *partially re-recording* old tracks, a semi-example would be Jeff Lynne, who prior to fully restarting ELO a few years ago, spent most of the 2000s doing ELO reissues where, from time to time, he'd take an unfinished ELO (or solo) track and re-record many (if not most or all) elements. He did this on several tracks on his 2000 "Flashback" ELO compilation ("Love Changes All", "Helpless", a few others), and also scattered bonus tracks across many album reissues; songs like "Surrender", "Latitude 88 North", "One Day", "Forecast", "Cold Feet", and others.

The BB's over the years occasionally did this, "Sherry She Needs Me" being a classic example. Some stuff on the 70s albums (and KTSA in 1980) features partly re-recorded elements; but often this was less a "redoing something they didn't like" scenario, and more just a case of *finishing* an incomplete track.

It's understandably not a super common thing, especially when it comes to doing this with *already-released* tracks. That's probably even more rare. There are examples. Tom Scholz, as I recall, inexplicably partly re-worked several tracks from the panned "Corporate America" Boston album on his more recent album. Bruce Johnston supposedly did this with "She Believes In Love Again" back during the TWGMTR sessions, but it was left off of course. George Harrison did this with "My Sweet Lord 2000", although that was more a case of having an "alternate" way to hear the song.
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« Reply #39 on: July 01, 2019, 01:50:52 PM »

Yeah, I think the ideas with the "Beckley...." material have probably been greatly overblown at this stage. What I envisioned was more along the lines of a new Carl collection put together by the estate that included demos and unreleased tracks, and then maybe, especially if they've already added any new elements to anything, *maybe* reworking one or two of the "Beckley..." tracks.

It would be something like the Beach Boys reworking "Daybreak Over the Ocean" for the TWGMTR album; just partly re-recording certain elements to integrate it into a new project.  


I guess I could see it with a one-off Like a Brother track perhaps, as unlikely as even that might be. It *could* turn out cool in theory.

Maybe the only feasable way for that to happen is if The BBs added backing vocals to the song, then there'd be a new "BBs add backing vocals to a late member's solo song" spin on it which could get some noteriety.

The thing is, I could also see something like that being considered bastardizing the song's intent by the artist, being as the songs were presumably done as side projects separate from The BBs for personal reasons known only to Carl. But again, who knows, seeing as Soulful Old Man Shunshine was released (specifically against Carl's wishes, although I assume he wasn't vehemently opposed to the song as opposed to slightly embarrassed by the flub).

In any case, I think there'd need to be some new interest in Carl's material in order for something like this to have a chance of happening. I feel like the Denny/Brian May collab only finally came out due to Bohemian Rhapsody being in the zeitgeist. If something specifically Carl-related were to capture the public's imagination for even a nanosecond, maybe it could convince the powers that be to do some projects like this and put them out.
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« Reply #40 on: July 01, 2019, 09:33:52 PM »

Other than the Bowie content described in this thread, are there any other examples of an artist hating backing tracks/production of an album so much that they actually re-recorded elements of a released song (but left in the original vocals), and then newly released that new version? It's gotta be rare.

I know some Ozzy solo albums did this, but this was due to some contractual thing where they didn't want to pay off (or deal with) other musicians getting credit and money.

I just can't in a million years see it happening with the Like a Brother album. Firstly because IMO none of the backing tracks are offensively bad, some of them are just kinda mediocre. Secondly, it would seem that to do such would be to slap in the face the producers who originally worked on the album, literally like saying "your work sucked so much, we're going to go to huge efforts to re-record the backing tracks". Stranger things have happened, but it seems next to impossible for anything like this to happen, and that's not to even get into the idea that there wouldn't exactly be a ton of interest in a project like this either.

I know some people have suggested doing the same with the BB's SIP album.

I suppose if anything like that were to ever happen with SIP and/or Like a Brother, it would maybe be a random one-off for a single song, and marketed as a "reimagination" or something like that. Sort of how Sail Plane Song got (2) new versions where Mark/Alan made creative decisions to tweak and add sonic ideas to that song which was quite a minimal demo to start with. The idea (I assume) was to imagine what the song might have sounded like if Brian had spent more time on it in the studio in the late '60s. I happen to quite like those tweaked Sail Plane Song  versions, since they don't "replace" the original, which is available to listen to anytime. I find them interesting, I know some people aren't fans though.

It's quite different to think of redoing an entire already-released album in that way though. That would really seem to be more of a "statement" *against* the Like a Brother original album, and since that album was (partly) Carl's baby, I just don't see people making that decision for him, let alone getting the other artists on the album to go along with it too.

That said... clearly, people behind the scenes in BBs world (mainly Mark and Alan) seem to be thinking of new, creative and interesting ways to release "new" BBs material... either by digging REALLY deep and excavating stuff that wasn't known to exist before, or simply by thinking outside the box for ways to show the world that a particular song or fragment deserves some love, be it finding new ways to edit content to make more of a "song" out of what would otherwise be a tiny snippet.  I am a fan of this mindset for sure, and I'd happily welcome most any idea (including a Like a Brother remix/reimagination) if something like that were to happen.


Robert Palmer often did re-records for that reason, and even redid vocals on occasion. He released two albums that were purportedly compilations that we’re made up of redone tracks (the Addictions series)

Truth be told the originals were better, without fail
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« Reply #41 on: July 01, 2019, 09:50:51 PM »

Other than the Bowie content described in this thread, are there any other examples of an artist hating backing tracks/production of an album so much that they actually re-recorded elements of a released song (but left in the original vocals), and then newly released that new version? It's gotta be rare.

I know some Ozzy solo albums did this, but this was due to some contractual thing where they didn't want to pay off (or deal with) other musicians getting credit and money.

I just can't in a million years see it happening with the Like a Brother album. Firstly because IMO none of the backing tracks are offensively bad, some of them are just kinda mediocre. Secondly, it would seem that to do such would be to slap in the face the producers who originally worked on the album, literally like saying "your work sucked so much, we're going to go to huge efforts to re-record the backing tracks". Stranger things have happened, but it seems next to impossible for anything like this to happen, and that's not to even get into the idea that there wouldn't exactly be a ton of interest in a project like this either.

I know some people have suggested doing the same with the BB's SIP album.

I suppose if anything like that were to ever happen with SIP and/or Like a Brother, it would maybe be a random one-off for a single song, and marketed as a "reimagination" or something like that. Sort of how Sail Plane Song got (2) new versions where Mark/Alan made creative decisions to tweak and add sonic ideas to that song which was quite a minimal demo to start with. The idea (I assume) was to imagine what the song might have sounded like if Brian had spent more time on it in the studio in the late '60s. I happen to quite like those tweaked Sail Plane Song  versions, since they don't "replace" the original, which is available to listen to anytime. I find them interesting, I know some people aren't fans though.

It's quite different to think of redoing an entire already-released album in that way though. That would really seem to be more of a "statement" *against* the Like a Brother original album, and since that album was (partly) Carl's baby, I just don't see people making that decision for him, let alone getting the other artists on the album to go along with it too.

That said... clearly, people behind the scenes in BBs world (mainly Mark and Alan) seem to be thinking of new, creative and interesting ways to release "new" BBs material... either by digging REALLY deep and excavating stuff that wasn't known to exist before, or simply by thinking outside the box for ways to show the world that a particular song or fragment deserves some love, be it finding new ways to edit content to make more of a "song" out of what would otherwise be a tiny snippet.  I am a fan of this mindset for sure, and I'd happily welcome most any idea (including a Like a Brother remix/reimagination) if something like that were to happen.


Robert Palmer often did re-records for that reason, and even redid vocals on occasion. He released two albums that were purportedly compilations that we’re made up of redone tracks (the Addictions series)

Truth be told the originals were better, without fail

 Funny how that almost always seems to be the case with many artists, even with this band 😌
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« Reply #42 on: July 02, 2019, 06:57:30 AM »

Yeah, I think the ideas with the "Beckley...." material have probably been greatly overblown at this stage. What I envisioned was more along the lines of a new Carl collection put together by the estate that included demos and unreleased tracks, and then maybe, especially if they've already added any new elements to anything, *maybe* reworking one or two of the "Beckley..." tracks.

It would be something like the Beach Boys reworking "Daybreak Over the Ocean" for the TWGMTR album; just partly re-recording certain elements to integrate it into a new project.  


I guess I could see it with a one-off Like a Brother track perhaps, as unlikely as even that might be. It *could* turn out cool in theory.

Maybe the only feasable way for that to happen is if The BBs added backing vocals to the song, then there'd be a new "BBs add backing vocals to a late member's solo song" spin on it which could get some noteriety.

The thing is, I could also see something like that being considered bastardizing the song's intent by the artist, being as the songs were presumably done as side projects separate from The BBs for personal reasons known only to Carl. But again, who knows, seeing as Soulful Old Man Shunshine was released (specifically against Carl's wishes, although I assume he wasn't vehemently opposed to the song as opposed to slightly embarrassed by the flub).

In any case, I think there'd need to be some new interest in Carl's material in order for something like this to have a chance of happening. I feel like the Denny/Brian May collab only finally came out due to Bohemian Rhapsody being in the zeitgeist. If something specifically Carl-related were to capture the public's imagination for even a nanosecond, maybe it could convince the powers that be to do some projects like this and put them out.

I think, in a scenario where the surviving BBs overdubbed "They're Only Words" or something like that, there would not be a huge outcry about sullying the sanctity of the "Beckley Lamm Wilson" project nor Carl's intent. It's just not material that's known enough for people to care. They could pitch it as a "new" song and most would never even know it had come out. Plus, the original version would always remain.

As we've been saying, they've done tons of stuff with Carl's voice without Carl's approval at this stage, and there hasn't been any fallout. They've dug up old tracks, live tracks, live video/film, they've done remixes, multiple live editions of the band have used his live vocal to back on stage, and so on.

But I think the only way we would ever get the BBs backing Carl electronically would be on a group album. I think TWGMTR was likely the last chance for that to happen, and I was a bit surprised they didn't try to integrate Carl into that album at all. Al tried to get "Waves of Love" on there and nobody went for it. They didn't try to use "Soul Searchin'" or something (which hadn't yet come out on "MIC" at that point). TWGMTR ended up being the one BB album Carl isn't on at all.
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« Reply #43 on: July 02, 2019, 09:31:25 AM »

 I think TWGMTR was likely the last chance for that to happen, and I was a bit surprised they didn't try to integrate Carl into that album at all. Al tried to get "Waves of Love" on there and nobody went for it. They didn't try to use "Soul Searchin'" or something (which hadn't yet come out on "MIC" at that point). TWGMTR ended up being the one BB album Carl isn't on at all.

I was also quite surprised at that. I figure it's either some odd politics (because then maybe there'd be a push for including something with Denny too, and that just means less spotlight for an already unsatisfied-with-his-level-of-input Mike)... or Brian just wasn't emotionally in a space to be able to touch the idea of including his late brothers on a new project with a 10 foot pole. Or a combination of both. It must be. I'm sure they could have excavated some unreleaesed Carl vocal parts/fragments from some project if they really wanted to. I can't believe that there just wasn't anything usable. At minimum, even a wordless Carl or Denny background vocal or two could have been flown in and stuff built around that.
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« Reply #44 on: July 02, 2019, 09:47:13 AM »

 I think TWGMTR was likely the last chance for that to happen, and I was a bit surprised they didn't try to integrate Carl into that album at all. Al tried to get "Waves of Love" on there and nobody went for it. They didn't try to use "Soul Searchin'" or something (which hadn't yet come out on "MIC" at that point). TWGMTR ended up being the one BB album Carl isn't on at all.

I was also quite surprised at that. I figure it's either some odd politics (because then maybe there'd be a push for including something with Denny too, and that just means less spotlight for an already unsatisfied-with-his-level-of-input Mike)... or Brian just wasn't emotionally in a space to be able to touch the idea of including his late brothers on a new project with a 10 foot pole. Or a combination of both. It must be. I'm sure they could have excavated some unreleaesed Carl vocal parts/fragments from some project if they really wanted to. I can't believe that there just wasn't anything usable. At minimum, even a wordless Carl or Denny background vocal or two could have been flown in and stuff built around that.

There seemed to be a relative time crunch to get the album finished before tour rehearsals started, so I suppose it makes sense they wouldn't have time to workshop some sort of hybrid song utilizing Carl fragments.

Some might recall this was probably one of several reasons the "Threetles" back in the 90s skipped working on a third Lennon song, "Now and Then", as it would have required a lot more patchwork and re-writing rather than just remaking finished songs and dropping Lennon's voice back into it.

A ready-made song would be easier, and Al offered a pretty solid song in "Waves of Love." Jason Fine's Rolling Stone article paints a pretty vivid picture of Brian balking, and it's unclear why. It's clear Brian didn't want to work on the song, and also clear that he didn't want to have any confrontation about it. But why he didn't want to do it isn't clear. Obvious guesses would include: Brian wasn't emotionally interested in working on a Carl vocal, or Brian just didn't like the song, or Brian thought Carl's vocal on the song was a bit wonky. I'd say the latter would hold some water; while the song is a catchy song that easily could have fit on TWGMTR, Carl's lead vocal has always sounded a bit weird. I don't know if it just wasn't recorded or mic'ed well when originally performed, or if the any sort of technical rejiggering (speed or pitch alteration to match a new key) made it sound odd. But that could have been at play.

Certainly, other guys were workshopping stuff during those sessions even if they had little chance of making it on the album, such as Bruce and Foskett working on "She Believes in Love Again."

Using that Al track could have knocked out three birds with one stone: Give Al a song on the album, feature Carl on something, and put a nice, catchy song on the album.

Other than that, I think "Soul Searchin'" would have made the most sense, but I suppose stylistically it wouldn't have been super in-step with the album.

I don't mind that they avoided an electronic "duet" and just did new tracks. But they essentially did to Mike's "Daybreak..." what Al wanted to do with "Waves of Love", which was to take an old but not ancient track and just overdub more BBs.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2019, 09:48:26 AM by HeyJude » Logged

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« Reply #45 on: July 02, 2019, 10:03:43 AM »

nto it.

A ready-made song would be easier, and Al offered a pretty solid song in "Waves of Love." Jason Fine's Rolling Stone article paints a pretty vivid picture of Brian balking, and it's unclear why. It's clear Brian didn't want to work on the song, and also clear that he didn't want to have any confrontation about it. But why he didn't want to do it isn't clear. Obvious guesses would include: Brian wasn't emotionally interested in working on a Carl vocal, or Brian just didn't like the song, or Brian thought Carl's vocal on the song was a bit wonky. I'd say the latter would hold some water; while the song is a catchy song that easily could have fit on TWGMTR, Carl's lead vocal has always sounded a bit weird. I don't know if it just wasn't recorded or mic'ed well when originally performed, or if the any sort of technical rejiggering (speed or pitch alteration to match a new key) made it sound odd. But that could have been at play.  

Oddly enough, I've always thought that Carl's vocal on Waves of Love sounded surprisingly good. As in, I literally don't recall hearing *anything* that sounded subpar about its fidelity or performance *whatsoever*. Maybe I missed something though? I need to go back and listen to it (aren't there like 3 released versions of that song? do any of them have differently-mixed Carl vocals?)... but my recollection is that Carl's vox were pretty much on point. Can you give any specific examples of where you think it sounded a bit off? I do recall other people also saying that Carl's vocal was a bit weird or subpar around the time of Waves' release, so I feel like I'm in the minority on my opinion! I do also recall hearing a few moments of the famous Carl vibrato in a way that gave me the feels.

Bottom line - if the BBs were willing to let some of the undeniably wonky 2012 vocals of theirs, as recorded by Joe Thomas, be prominently featured on the album, then I find it hard to believe that Carl's would've been deemed unusable. There are moments of what sound like digital editing glitches and autotune mistakes on the album, and moments where it felt like syllables from different takes were cobbled together to make a lead vocal (not that there's anything inherently "wrong" with doing that, but it should be a relatively transparent process if done properly) - on the album it sounded in some spots - Spring Vacation comes to mind - where Joe Thomas was working with not enough playlists of good vocal takes, and had to stitch together something usable, with not a ton of success at times.

I suppose another factor could be that even if Carl's vocals on Waves weren't recorded "properly" to the highest fidelity, that Carl's early 90s voice would still have been in better shape, and sounding younger than any other 2012 BBs voice (barring Al), and that it would have made Brian and Mike's vocals sound iffy by comparison. But I doubt that would have been the reason Waves was left out... I just keep going back to it either being some political thing, or the whole reunion thing *already* being an emotionally difficult thing for Brian dealing with Mike - who was clearly strutting around demanding input, and perhaps complaining about not enough songs being "original Wilson/Love cowrites, from the ground up"... and Brian just said "f*ck it" and didn't even want to deal with an Al song or figuring out the complicated ins and outs of including Carl.

Side note: damn shame that The Beatles didn't finish that song just due to time. That whole release should have been delayed in order for them to finish it. Talk about misplaced priorities (which is usually what The BBs have the market cornered on)  LOL
« Last Edit: July 02, 2019, 10:08:19 AM by CenturyDeprived » Logged
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« Reply #46 on: July 02, 2019, 10:47:28 AM »

I think it was the right decision not to include any old recording of Carl on TWGMTR. Although at the time before the album was released I mentioned that I thought it would be cool to have him on there and maybe a finished "California slide" with Dennis, I have to disagree with myself in hindsight. TWGMTR was/is an artistic statement by the Beach Boys of 2011/2012. Otherwise it wouldn't show who they were and what they were capable of at that time. They included Dennis and Carl in the concerts (at least in those that featured the video screen) and that was a very nice tribute. Recycling old recordings on a new Beach Boys project wouldn't seem right.
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« Reply #47 on: July 02, 2019, 11:01:17 AM »

I think it was the right decision not to include any old recording of Carl on TWGMTR. Although at the time before the album was released I mentioned that I thought it would be cool to have him on there and maybe a finished "California slide" with Dennis, I have to disagree with myself in hindsight. TWGMTR was/is an artistic statement by the Beach Boys of 2011/2012. Otherwise it wouldn't show who they were and what they were capable of at that time. They included Dennis and Carl in the concerts (at least in those that featured the video screen) and that was a very nice tribute. Recycling old recordings on a new Beach Boys project wouldn't seem right.

But what if it not an entire old song by Carl/Denny, and rather some vocal pieces by them here and there that would've been flown in to a new song? I can see both sides of the argument for sure, and in part I get what you're saying... but I can't see any harm in including a new song with some unused vocal stuff from Carl/Denny.

I think Don't Fight The Sea was a great example of what could have been accomplished. Granted, there may not have been another tune like that sitting around. But something could probably have been put together. Maybe it was just - in part - a matter of not having enough time with an album deadline looming, as HeyJude suggested. But I think it was multiple factors involved.

Separately, if we're talking about Waves, while an older song than 2012, isn't exactly some super old tune from the early 70s with not a remotely similar sound to 2012. Waves is much closer by comparison IMO.

Also, if you're taking the side that TWGMTR was/is an artistic statement by the Beach Boys of 2011/2012, the inclusion of the old song Daybreak (and its old backing vocals from Mike's solo band) would seem to contradict that. It was an old Mike solo track with backing vocals by non-BBs that was shoehorned into the album. Waves was a song that from the ground up was a song (originally probably intended for The BBs, I think?) that - compared to Daybreak - has more legitimacy being on the album IMO since it included Carl.

Sure it's all a matter of opinion, but I don't see Daybreak as being representative of much of an artistic statement by the Beach Boys of 2011/2012. And sure, I guess you could say that about a few other tracks on the album which I think started out originally as being written as Brian solo tracks, but at least (I'm pretty sure) they were all entirely re-recorded for TWGMTR as opposed to Daybreak which literally uses an old track from a Mike solo project.

Daybreak already gets TWGMTR into somewhat piecemeal territory, although I think they did a pretty good job of that not being terribly obvious. It's a meh song, I don't hate it, and I don't think the song's production stands out like a sore thumb necessarily, but its inclusion breaks the "rule" about it being a 2012 BBs "statement", so I don't see how including some vocals as a tribute to Carl/Denny would be such a bad thing. Of course, if that would've been done, the way it would have been handled/executed would have to have been done delicately and with great care/taste. More in an Mark/Alan type of way. Not sure Joe Thomas would've been the right person for that from a technical standpoint. Just threw up a little in my mouth thinking of Joe adding autotune to Carl/Denny.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2019, 11:07:34 AM by CenturyDeprived » Logged
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« Reply #48 on: July 02, 2019, 11:42:24 AM »

 I think TWGMTR was likely the last chance for that to happen, and I was a bit surprised they didn't try to integrate Carl into that album at all. Al tried to get "Waves of Love" on there and nobody went for it. They didn't try to use "Soul Searchin'" or something (which hadn't yet come out on "MIC" at that point). TWGMTR ended up being the one BB album Carl isn't on at all.

I was also quite surprised at that. I figure it's either some odd politics (because then maybe there'd be a push for including something with Denny too, and that just means less spotlight for an already unsatisfied-with-his-level-of-input Mike)... or Brian just wasn't emotionally in a space to be able to touch the idea of including his late brothers on a new project with a 10 foot pole. Or a combination of both. It must be. I'm sure they could have excavated some unreleaesed Carl vocal parts/fragments from some project if they really wanted to. I can't believe that there just wasn't anything usable. At minimum, even a wordless Carl or Denny background vocal or two could have been flown in and stuff built around that.

Yeah I agree with Rocker that I just think the group was Brian, Mike, Al, Bruce and Dave in 2011/2012 and That's Why God Made The Radio represented that. There were archive releases to hear Denny and Carl on. I think Brian and Joe (and Mike) were mostly just focused on creating what they thought a 2012 Beach Boys album should be, so likely there was little or no thought  of pulling this song or that song out of the vaults to get a Carl vocal on there. They picked the songs they wanted to work on and I think we got what we got.

Side note: damn shame that The Beatles didn't finish that song just due to time. That whole release should have been delayed in order for them to finish it. Talk about misplaced priorities (which is usually what The BBs have the market cornered on)  LOL

Off topic I suppose, but the only reason "Now and Then" wasn't finished was George Harrison. Apparently he just didn't wanna do it. Time had nothing to do with it.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2019, 12:04:16 PM by Jim V. » Logged
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« Reply #49 on: July 03, 2019, 08:41:43 AM »

Off topic I suppose, but the only reason "Now and Then" wasn't finished was George Harrison. Apparently he just didn't wanna do it. Time had nothing to do with it.

Not to veer off topic, but "Now and Then" is a more complicated story than that. Harrison didn't like the song, and that probably was the main reason it wasn't worked on further. But the time issue was a factor as well. Jeff Lynne and engineer Marc Mann had actually prepped full "temp track" band performances of both "Real Love" and "Now and Then", so it's true that they did the heavy lifting as far as time-consuming arrangement on "Now and Then" prior to the "Threetles" sessions resuming in 1995. But even with a full temp track to work with, "Now and Then" would have required significantly more time put in to further arrangement and especially writing a lot of new lyrics.

I think Harrison found the song to be a dirge, and then it was easy to move to "Real Love" because they liked the song more and *also* because it was a fully finished song that didn't even require a few lines of new lyrics the way "Free As A Bird" had. So I think time was a factor, as they only blocked out a specific amount of time for each of those sets of "Threetles" sessions.

Harrison not liking the song was ultimate the reason they never came *back* to the song afterwards, although I think Harrison cashed his paychecks on the "Anthology" by the end of 1995 and no longer had motivation or reason to continue to work with McCartney on more tracks, so I don't think he was interested in working on *any* third "Threetles" song.

To bring this back around to Carl and the Beach Boys, there was a much tighter time crunch on the TWGMTR album in 2011/2012. While Brian had his bag of Brian/Joe songs, and Brian had cut some of the backing tracks in Nashville before the album sessions proper actually began, they still had to cut vocals for a ton of songs and also some new backing tracks, and have it all wrapped up before April of 2012. The band was amazingly productive in that span of time, with allegedly around two dozen songs tracked to varying degrees, with Mike having time to add lyrics to several songs, and then all the guys adding vocals. Several songs were cut from scratch (e.g. "Beaches in Mind").

Much like the "Threetles", I think nobody was into "Waves of Love" enough to set aside that extra time to do it. Just more examples of Al being rather marginalized. But they had presumably *multiple* versions of the song they could have worked with, and they could have gone the easy route and given it the "Daybreak..." treatment of just taking Al's finished track, and then just adding a layer of BB backing vocals.

I'm not torn up about the song not being on the BB album; it made it out (in three versions!) on Al's reissues in 2012.
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