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652956 Posts in 26089 Topics by 3718 Members - Latest Member: CarlWilsonfan101 December 15, 2019, 09:41:32 AM
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Author Topic: Career mishaps??  (Read 6650 times)
HeyJude
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« Reply #50 on: May 28, 2019, 12:53:39 PM »

Regarding C50 recordings, I think there are "best available source" comps floating around. You can get the majority of the 61-ish songs performed in soundboard quality between the C50 official live album, the Japan pro-shot show, that London radio broadcast, the Arizona soundboard pulled from the C50 Blu-ray, and so on. I think it only leaves 10-15 songs that only exist as audience recordings.

Speaking of, does anybody have the full Berkeley June 1st, 2012 show? I've been meaning to track that down for years, and I'm curious if it actually exists complete. There are YouTube clips of course.
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« Reply #51 on: May 28, 2019, 01:00:37 PM »

After listening to some of the radio performances the Beach Boys did in 2012 and also watching parts of the Japan show on youtube, the disaster of the finally released live album has to be mentioned in this thread if it wasn't already. They even used some of those named performances (which sounded mostly fine as they where) on the album and still messed them up. Talk about blowing a chance. This could've been one of the Beach Boys' best live albums. All in all the records sound like the audio track of a saturday evening TV show in Germany (and that's not a compliment).

The C50 live album is weird. Some stuff (e.g. "Getcha Back") sounds pretty okay, while others are autotuned excessively (e.g. "Don't Back Down"). The tracks all sound a bit sterile, but I prefer that to excessively wet mixes with too much audience noise.

Interestingly, the Arizona show released on Blu-ray sounds pretty okay overall.

I'm not fully blaming Mike for the lack of subsequent C50 live releases, but I can't imagine Mike walking and the reunion ending in rather shambolic fashion *helped* the chances of more C50 live releases. Between not wanting to continue to publicize a more substantive live lineup, and not wanting to continue doing projects tied to Joe Thomas, I can't imagine Mike was or would have been pushing for more C50 releases. I think the live album and Blu-ray that came out had already been contracted, so they had to come out.

But there was discussion of the Red Rocks show coming out in some form, as that was professionally shot. They apparently shot the Hollywood Bowl show in 3D, and that never came out.

I don't know what the Blu-ray project was going to be that was planned through "Pledge Music" and then canceled. But I don't think it was going to be a full show; it sounded like it was going to be a documentary covering the whole tour. That whole thing fell apart due to apparently a whole other (e.g. non-Beach Boys) business debacle.

But I've long hoped for a bunch of live shows from throughout the years to be made available online via download (would be super cheap to do, and would be free money for BRI), and that they could simply mix in some C50 stuff into other eras.
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Joel Goldenberg
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« Reply #52 on: May 29, 2019, 11:23:19 AM »

Biggest career mishap:

The day Carl started to smoke.

 Embarrassed
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« Reply #53 on: May 29, 2019, 11:48:59 AM »

Biggest career mishap:

The day Carl started to smoke.

 Embarrassed


I think Joel nailed it. It's mindboggling to think how different things would be today had he not started. What an incredible game changer that would have been.  Smokin
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« Reply #54 on: May 29, 2019, 12:22:33 PM »

Biggest career mishap:

The day Carl started to smoke.

 Embarrassed


I think Joel nailed it. It's mindboggling to think how different things would be today had he not started. What an incredible game changer that would have been.  Smokin

That and if Dennis and not gone swimming on Dec 28 1983.
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« Reply #55 on: May 29, 2019, 12:34:04 PM »

I know it's semantics and kind of icky to even talk about, but really Dennis's and Carl's issues were more life mishaps than career mishaps for the group, in terms of by the time they passed away.

Setting aside the whole issue that it's not impossible that Carl would have gotten sick without having smoked, while his death was tragic for a million obvious reasons, and while the band could never *not* miss Carl's voice and presence, the band wasn't doing much in the final years leading up to his death.

Smile vs. Smiley Smile, shifts in musical direction, record contracts, all of that stuff at various moments in time directly impacted the band's career at those moments more than Carl's death impacted the band *in* 1998.

While it's unknown what might have happened with the band had Carl lived (I would assume another album of some sort at some point would have happened), I don't think a 1998 or 99 Beach Boys with Carl would have been a career-changing difference between what happened without him. Al *probably* would have been gone even had Carl survived. Carl surviving may have slowed the breakdown of the Mike-Al issues.

Carl and Al being gone by 1998 certainly *was* impactful, but it was really the tipping point or death knell for the true "touring band" as it had existed up to that point.

Regarding Carl, I'd say a bigger career mishap for him and the band was his (and the band's) creative inactivity by the time the 80s rolled around, and certainly into the 90s. Carl could have and should have issued numerous solo albums, the band should have been working on numerous albums. They could have been doing a late-1993 "boxed set" type of setlist for all those years instead of for just a month or so in late 1993.

Carl had little output after his 1983 solo album. He had a few contributions to BB '85, no writing and only vocal contributions to *some* tracks on "Still Cruisin" and "Summer in Paradise", and scattered work on the "Beckley Lamm Wilson" album. And then a few BB one-off projects we know about. He no doubt worked on other things we've never heard. But he seemed to resign himself to constant touring and little creative work (or even studio work in general even doing other people's stuff) in the last 10-15 years.
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« Reply #56 on: May 29, 2019, 06:26:56 PM »

I know it's semantics and kind of icky to even talk about, but really Dennis's and Carl's issues were more life mishaps than career mishaps for the group, in terms of by the time they passed away.

Setting aside the whole issue that it's not impossible that Carl would have gotten sick without having smoked, while his death was tragic for a million obvious reasons, and while the band could never *not* miss Carl's voice and presence, the band wasn't doing much in the final years leading up to his death.

Smile vs. Smiley Smile, shifts in musical direction, record contracts, all of that stuff at various moments in time directly impacted the band's career at those moments more than Carl's death impacted the band *in* 1998.

While it's unknown what might have happened with the band had Carl lived (I would assume another album of some sort at some point would have happened), I don't think a 1998 or 99 Beach Boys with Carl would have been a career-changing difference between what happened without him. Al *probably* would have been gone even had Carl survived. Carl surviving may have slowed the breakdown of the Mike-Al issues.

Carl and Al being gone by 1998 certainly *was* impactful, but it was really the tipping point or death knell for the true "touring band" as it had existed up to that point.

Regarding Carl, I'd say a bigger career mishap for him and the band was his (and the band's) creative inactivity by the time the 80s rolled around, and certainly into the 90s. Carl could have and should have issued numerous solo albums, the band should have been working on numerous albums. They could have been doing a late-1993 "boxed set" type of setlist for all those years instead of for just a month or so in late 1993.

Carl had little output after his 1983 solo album. He had a few contributions to BB '85, no writing and only vocal contributions to *some* tracks on "Still Cruisin" and "Summer in Paradise", and scattered work on the "Beckley Lamm Wilson" album. And then a few BB one-off projects we know about. He no doubt worked on other things we've never heard. But he seemed to resign himself to constant touring and little creative work (or even studio work in general even doing other people's stuff) in the last 10-15 years.


I tend to believe that had Carl stayed with us that had he stayed with the band, Mike Love would not have been able to pull the shenanigans he has with the Beach Boys name attached to them. He would have kept an eye on the lovester and not allowed things like StaymoHs to be on board for instance, or somehow prevent Mike Love from getting the ok to have the license. The other scenario would be that he would wash his hands of the touring band and go with Brian along with Al and reclaim the BB name and send Mike packing to tour under his own frigging name.
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« Reply #57 on: May 30, 2019, 12:46:36 AM »

I don't know if this has been mentioned or not, but I think not releasing the original version of Oh Darlin' with Brian singing was a mistake. I was just listening to this last night(a few times in a row, actually), and it's much better than I remembered. I think it's much, much better than the slower and, frankly, boring version. The Brian version is a little more uptempo, and it shows that at least in the studio, Brian was capable of delivering a very good vocal. It would have also given him much more of a presence on a studio album by the group when they sorely needed it.
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« Reply #58 on: May 30, 2019, 06:38:40 AM »

I tend to believe that had Carl stayed with us that had he stayed with the band, Mike Love would not have been able to pull the shenanigans he has with the Beach Boys name attached to them. He would have kept an eye on the lovester and not allowed things like StaymoHs to be on board for instance, or somehow prevent Mike Love from getting the ok to have the license. The other scenario would be that he would wash his hands of the touring band and go with Brian along with Al and reclaim the BB name and send Mike packing to tour under his own frigging name.

I love Carl and we'll of course never know what would have gone down. But Mike was already essentially running the touring band (operationally, not musically) while Carl was still alive. As retold in books including the Marks/Stebbins book, Al didn't agree with Mike's plans to have his own company produce the tours, and Carl didn't put up a fight and didn't back Al by all indications.

I think it's possible had Carl not been ill, he may have continued to try to broker peace between Al and Mike. Certainly, had that occured, there would have been no need to issue a "license" to use the name in the first place.

It's also, for better or worse, apparent that Carl never seemed to stop Stamos from being involved with the band. Carl participated in "Full House" episodes, participated in having Stamos on the SIP album, and played gigs where Stamos was present throughout.

I'm not attacking Carl for any of this, and certainly by the time of his illness I can't fault him for putting all the band politics BS on the back burner. But it's definitely part of the story that, even in the 90s prior to his illness, Carl seemed to be pretty resigned to what the band became by the late 90s (if not sooner). Back when he left in 1981, he took issue with the band's setlists, rehearsal time, and willingness to record more albums. By the 90s, while they stayed generally rehearsed and sounded professional, the setlists were pretty stale (with some specific exceptions such as late '93), and they certainly were not remaining active in terms of releasing albums.

Carl even mentioned in a 1989 interview that his vision of the future was Mike still touring even after everybody else had dropped off. I don't think he was actively advocating for that to take place, but he rather presciently noted that that seemed the most likely scenario.

I've often said that the most likely scenario I could envision had Carl survived is that Al probably still would have eventually been gone, and then they all probably would have done a reunion tour in like 2005 or 2007 or something with everybody involved. Would Carl have objected to Mike trying to (according to the Marks/Stebbins book) bring David Marks in as a replacement *for Al*? Would Carl have been okay with Al being thrown to the curb and replaced with David Marks? I honestly don't know. Carl sent a message through the BB organization congratulating Dave when he (Carl) heard Dave was back in the band in late 1997, but I don't think we'll ever know how it would have played out had Carl been well and still touring with the band. Would Mike still have been so strenuously trying to get Dave into the band at that particular moment? Would they have all toured as a five-piece at first?
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« Reply #59 on: May 30, 2019, 06:48:05 AM »

I don't know if this has been mentioned or not, but I think not releasing the original version of Oh Darlin' with Brian singing was a mistake. I was just listening to this last night(a few times in a row, actually), and it's much better than I remembered. I think it's much, much better than the slower and, frankly, boring version. The Brian version is a little more uptempo, and it shows that at least in the studio, Brian was capable of delivering a very good vocal. It would have also given him much more of a presence on a studio album by the group when they sorely needed it.

The version of "Oh, Darlin'" with Brian singing uses the same backing track as the eventual released version. Barring slight tape speed variations on the circulating versions, the backing tracks are the same (obviously the final released version had more overdubs).

I actually like the song, the composition itself, and I particularly have always liked the dissonant backing vocals during the bridge.

But no version of the song was ever going to change the band's fortunes in any way. Again, I like the track, but its production is cheesy and wonky, the arrangement is pretty limp and cheesy, the lyrics aren't that great (either version). That circulating Brian scratch vocal, while certainly interesting to fans and scholars (there aren't a ton of KTSA-era Brian leads), is pretty choppy and a bit croaky. Definitely sounds like a guide/scratch vocal.

But any version of the song was never going to be a hit or even released as a single. I think a vastly rejiggered version of the song, with more organic, sparse production, possibly some rewritten lyrics, could have been quite good.

I'd love to see an expanded KTSA with the Brian lead and all sorts of other tracks from the era. But I wouldn't say not releasing a creaky Brian guide vocal was in any way a career misstep.
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« Reply #60 on: May 30, 2019, 01:10:17 PM »

I don't know if this has been mentioned or not, but I think not releasing the original version of Oh Darlin' with Brian singing was a mistake. I was just listening to this last night(a few times in a row, actually), and it's much better than I remembered. I think it's much, much better than the slower and, frankly, boring version. The Brian version is a little more uptempo, and it shows that at least in the studio, Brian was capable of delivering a very good vocal. It would have also given him much more of a presence on a studio album by the group when they sorely needed it.

The version of "Oh, Darlin'" with Brian singing uses the same backing track as the eventual released version. Barring slight tape speed variations on the circulating versions, the backing tracks are the same (obviously the final released version had more overdubs).

I actually like the song, the composition itself, and I particularly have always liked the dissonant backing vocals during the bridge.

But no version of the song was ever going to change the band's fortunes in any way. Again, I like the track, but its production is cheesy and wonky, the arrangement is pretty limp and cheesy, the lyrics aren't that great (either version). That circulating Brian scratch vocal, while certainly interesting to fans and scholars (there aren't a ton of KTSA-era Brian leads), is pretty choppy and a bit croaky. Definitely sounds like a guide/scratch vocal.

But any version of the song was never going to be a hit or even released as a single. I think a vastly rejiggered version of the song, with more organic, sparse production, possibly some rewritten lyrics, could have been quite good.

I'd love to see an expanded KTSA with the Brian lead and all sorts of other tracks from the era. But I wouldn't say not releasing a creaky Brian guide vocal was in any way a career misstep.

I agree with Jay that not releasing "Oh Darlin'" with Brian on lead was a misstep while I also agree with HeyJude that it wasn't a truly fatal misstep as by that point, nobody really cared by then anyways.

But anyways as for all Brian's Beach Boys material, especially from Today! on, I don't think you could find a more forgettable song (or at least a more forgettable recording). Carl's vocal redefines the word workmanlike and is also a bit sleepy, the backing track absolutely plods and Bruce's "God only knows" during the tag is just the kinda self referential embarrassment that makes it tough to be a Beach Boys fan sometimes.

It's crazy because after all this time dismissing the song as a useless piece of nothing, when I heard the version with Brian on lead, the song suddenly became alive. Not a great, classic song by any stretch, but a decent album track. I assume the Carl vocal was chosen because of commercial considerations, though perhaps Brian wrote it for him?

As far as the production, it's just Bruce Johnston through and through. Cardboard, boring, no balls but at the same time not light enough to be pleasantly light (if one gets my idea, I know it's hard to communicate on this kinda thing via text). However, as bad as the production is, I think blame has to go to the songwriters (Brian and Mike) for not giving enough of a crap to have this promising tune turned into a big stinky pile by release.
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« Reply #61 on: May 30, 2019, 01:40:45 PM »

The Summer of love video was the nadir of their entire career.
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« Reply #62 on: May 31, 2019, 01:17:59 AM »

I don't know if this has been mentioned or not, but I think not releasing the original version of Oh Darlin' with Brian singing was a mistake. I was just listening to this last night(a few times in a row, actually), and it's much better than I remembered. I think it's much, much better than the slower and, frankly, boring version. The Brian version is a little more uptempo, and it shows that at least in the studio, Brian was capable of delivering a very good vocal. It would have also given him much more of a presence on a studio album by the group when they sorely needed it.

The version of "Oh, Darlin'" with Brian singing uses the same backing track as the eventual released version. Barring slight tape speed variations on the circulating versions, the backing tracks are the same (obviously the final released version had more overdubs).

I actually like the song, the composition itself, and I particularly have always liked the dissonant backing vocals during the bridge.

But no version of the song was ever going to change the band's fortunes in any way. Again, I like the track, but its production is cheesy and wonky, the arrangement is pretty limp and cheesy, the lyrics aren't that great (either version). That circulating Brian scratch vocal, while certainly interesting to fans and scholars (there aren't a ton of KTSA-era Brian leads), is pretty choppy and a bit croaky. Definitely sounds like a guide/scratch vocal.

But any version of the song was never going to be a hit or even released as a single. I think a vastly rejiggered version of the song, with more organic, sparse production, possibly some rewritten lyrics, could have been quite good.

I'd love to see an expanded KTSA with the Brian lead and all sorts of other tracks from the era. But I wouldn't say not releasing a creaky Brian guide vocal was in any way a career misstep.
I didn't say releasing it would have changed their fortunes. I was just saying that any new Brian lead song or appearance on a new BB's album would have been something that hardcore fans wanted.
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« Reply #63 on: May 31, 2019, 06:50:10 AM »

I don't know if this has been mentioned or not, but I think not releasing the original version of Oh Darlin' with Brian singing was a mistake. I was just listening to this last night(a few times in a row, actually), and it's much better than I remembered. I think it's much, much better than the slower and, frankly, boring version. The Brian version is a little more uptempo, and it shows that at least in the studio, Brian was capable of delivering a very good vocal. It would have also given him much more of a presence on a studio album by the group when they sorely needed it.

The version of "Oh, Darlin'" with Brian singing uses the same backing track as the eventual released version. Barring slight tape speed variations on the circulating versions, the backing tracks are the same (obviously the final released version had more overdubs).

I actually like the song, the composition itself, and I particularly have always liked the dissonant backing vocals during the bridge.

But no version of the song was ever going to change the band's fortunes in any way. Again, I like the track, but its production is cheesy and wonky, the arrangement is pretty limp and cheesy, the lyrics aren't that great (either version). That circulating Brian scratch vocal, while certainly interesting to fans and scholars (there aren't a ton of KTSA-era Brian leads), is pretty choppy and a bit croaky. Definitely sounds like a guide/scratch vocal.

But any version of the song was never going to be a hit or even released as a single. I think a vastly rejiggered version of the song, with more organic, sparse production, possibly some rewritten lyrics, could have been quite good.

I'd love to see an expanded KTSA with the Brian lead and all sorts of other tracks from the era. But I wouldn't say not releasing a creaky Brian guide vocal was in any way a career misstep.
I didn't say releasing it would have changed their fortunes. I was just saying that any new Brian lead song or appearance on a new BB's album would have been something that hardcore fans wanted.

Sure, I agree there are plenty of individual things/decisions that I and other hardcore fans would have liked. I was looking at addressing the title of the thread, which is "Career Mishaps." Not releasing an early outtake of an already-middling song because some hardcore fans (myself included!) would like to see it released doesn't amount to anything near a "career mishap" to my thinking.

"Career mishaps" would be things that could have potentially changed their fortunes. The bigger picture things like releasing "Smile", not going "oldies" at various points in their live career, choosing not to try to stay relevant and active in the studio, doing the Brian-Paley album, etc.
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« Reply #64 on: June 02, 2019, 06:25:09 AM »

I don't know if this has been mentioned or not, but I think not releasing the original version of Oh Darlin' with Brian singing was a mistake. I was just listening to this last night(a few times in a row, actually), and it's much better than I remembered. I think it's much, much better than the slower and, frankly, boring version. The Brian version is a little more uptempo, and it shows that at least in the studio, Brian was capable of delivering a very good vocal. It would have also given him much more of a presence on a studio album by the group when they sorely needed it.

The version of "Oh, Darlin'" with Brian singing uses the same backing track as the eventual released version. Barring slight tape speed variations on the circulating versions, the backing tracks are the same (obviously the final released version had more overdubs).

I actually like the song, the composition itself, and I particularly have always liked the dissonant backing vocals during the bridge.

But no version of the song was ever going to change the band's fortunes in any way. Again, I like the track, but its production is cheesy and wonky, the arrangement is pretty limp and cheesy, the lyrics aren't that great (either version). That circulating Brian scratch vocal, while certainly interesting to fans and scholars (there aren't a ton of KTSA-era Brian leads), is pretty choppy and a bit croaky. Definitely sounds like a guide/scratch vocal.

But any version of the song was never going to be a hit or even released as a single. I think a vastly rejiggered version of the song, with more organic, sparse production, possibly some rewritten lyrics, could have been quite good.

I'd love to see an expanded KTSA with the Brian lead and all sorts of other tracks from the era. But I wouldn't say not releasing a creaky Brian guide vocal was in any way a career misstep.
I didn't say releasing it would have changed their fortunes. I was just saying that any new Brian lead song or appearance on a new BB's album would have been something that hardcore fans wanted.

Sure, I agree there are plenty of individual things/decisions that I and other hardcore fans would have liked. I was looking at addressing the title of the thread, which is "Career Mishaps." Not releasing an early outtake of an already-middling song because some hardcore fans (myself included!) would like to see it released doesn't amount to anything near a "career mishap" to my thinking.

"Career mishaps" would be things that could have potentially changed their fortunes. The bigger picture things like releasing "Smile", not going "oldies" at various points in their live career, choosing not to try to stay relevant and active in the studio, doing the Brian-Paley album, etc.
You right. I wasn't really thinking of the "bigger picture", so to speak. I was thinking that a bigger Brian presence would possibly have increased sales from the more hardcore fans. But thinking it over, it probably wouldn't have amounted to much in the way of sales, or a possibility of the album charting. Did KTSA actually chart in any way?
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« Reply #65 on: June 02, 2019, 10:41:56 AM »

It charted but did worse than LA Light
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« Reply #66 on: June 04, 2019, 07:50:41 AM »

The band was just not on critic/consumer radar much by 1980 in terms of new music. Really, their main post-Holland run of success on the charts had to do with the 1976 promo push that helped "15 Big Ones" and its singles do relatively well.

Love You, MIU, and LA had all done middling to poor on the charts. KTSA actually, according to Wikipedia, scored a slightly higher peak album chart position than LA:

15 Big Ones - #8
Love You - #53
MIU Album - #151
LA (Light Album) - #100
Keepin' the Summer Alive - #75

But post-15BO, you can see the general trend for the band was poor album sales, with what little sales/chart action they *did* see being fueled by simple name recognition, some degree of staying on the radar by continuing to tour, and maybe a tiny bit of sort or reverse momentum from a few decently-performing singles (e.g. "Good Timin'" just barely scraping into the Top 40 by hitting literally #40).

"Goin' On" is an immensely more "commercial" and catchy single than "Oh, Darlin'" ever would have been, and even that single stalled out at #83.

A song like "Oh, Darlin'", and an album produced by someone of the caliber and style of Bruce Johnston, just had so very little chance of being a hit in 1980. It appears they did try to push "Oh, Darlin'" as a single in some international territories, and it appears it didn't chart and/or didn't do well in any of those territories.

You can see that most of their post-60s *singles chart* success usually was more traceable to being a fluke and/or due to some sort of novelty/stylisti/genre factor (e.g. covers of old songs and songs with some bit of novelty stylistically). Their biggest hit singles were a cover from "15 Big Ones", two covers from "MIU" (and "Come Go With Me" being pulled as a single three years after MIU for the "Ten Years" compilation and then becoming a moderate hit was an even bigger fluke!), the awful 1981 medley of their 60s hits, "Kokomo" which was absolutely a catchy song but also a bit of a novelty song, "Getcha Back", which was certainly a throwback style song and an arguable slight rewrite of "Don't Worry Baby", and so on.
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