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Author Topic: The Beatles Vs. the Beach Boys  (Read 2916 times)
louielouie
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« Reply #25 on: February 12, 2019, 11:07:16 PM »

OK, "stole" was a strong word, but I think he was trying to copying the overall vibe and feeling of YSBIM, at least subconsciously, and a lot of the patterns on the song are similar. Obviously I don't think Paul would be so blatant as to directly make his own imitation of it, but it seems to me he was maybe trying to make his own "impression" of it.

I had read Paul wrote HTAE while waiting for John to wake up one day while he was hanging out beside the pool at John's house, sometime shortly after Pet Sounds had come out
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Here,_There_and_Everywhere
Quote
McCartney began writing "Here, There and Everywhere" at Lennon's house in Weybridge, in early June
Pet Sounds came out in mid-May, of course. Plenty of time for Paul to give the album several listens.

Anyway, they both have introductions which, while different, could be said to be similar. But after that, line by line here's where I see the similarities ...

Part 1:
Paul: Here, making each day of the year
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Brian: I know perfectly well I'm not where I should be
Brian: I've been very aware you've been patient with me

Here, Brian repeats the melody twice while Paul does it just once, but notice both melodies generally ascend up, "peak" in the middle of the verse and then descend back down, like a mountain. That's the main part I think is very similar. Next ....

Part 2:

Paul: Changing my life with the wave of her hand || nobody can, deny that there's something there
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Brian: Every time we break up you bring back your love to me || and after all I've done to you how can it be?

In both cases here we have a much longer melodic line (that is actually 2 lines strung together). The first half of this (the part before my "||") the melody "peaks" on the 3rd word in both songs ("life"/"we"). In both songs after the "||" we have a melody that sort-of asks for a "resolution" ...

Now, the parts immediately after that do differ. Brain does a refrain ("You still believe in me!") while Paul goes right into the verse again. Then both songs repeat the above.

I also think the "I wanna cry!" is sort-of what like Paul used as a bridge ("I want her everywhere ..."). I'm not sure what you'd call the "I wanna cry" on the BB song but it's sort-of like a bridge anyway, maybe a bridge before the coda. These two parts are definitely different.

Imagine that Paul took Brian's first two lines, got rid of one of them, took the "I wanna cry!" and made it into a regular bridge (which is really almost like a chorus), changed the melody a bit, and - bingo! - you've got a new song.

Again, "stole" was probably a strong word. I don't even think he was probably consciously stealing/copying anything, I'm guessing it was more subconscious, more along the lines of George and "He's So Fine."

I once wrote a song that, when I played it to somebody, they told me, "That sounds like a Beatles song." I was never trying to copy anything, it was just a tune that came to me. But when they pointed that out to me, I realized, yeah, it sounded like a Beatles song (particularly Yellow Submarine). Sometimes you "copy" things without consciously intending to copy anything. IMO this is a case of that.

I would agree. Truthfully I think they inspired each other

Ok. Still, as others have already mentioned, the only sort of  ascertainable resemblance is in the intro of HT&E.
 "To lead a better life" starts in the fith grade of the main key (and first chord ) using the notes of the second inversion of G chord for that phrase. "I need my love to be here" uses again the second inversion of the corresponding chord (Bb)

YSBIM starts the verses with the fifth grade ( F# in this case, the song main key is B) and uses the second inversion of B chord too, though with notes out the major chord to resolve the melody.

The duration of notes in the melody of each of the verses you quote are different too.
YSBIM basically being quarters notes mainly (I know perfectly well...)  while Paul uses long notes, whole notes even (Here...year...)

Finally, the chord progressions of each song are very very different:
In the verses, HT&E uses the form: I, ii, iii, IV
 
On the other hand, YSBIM uses a two chord pattern in the verses (B and E and then E ,A ) with an obstinato three note bass, that gives the song that cool hypnotic feel I think.
 So the "similarities" if you rummagee a bit so to say, can be found between the intro of one song and the verses of the other, especifically in the selection of a form of chord to develope a melody.
Again, the mutual inspiration and respect for each other is undeniable, we're talking about some of the most talented and competitive songwriters of all time!

Anyway, I guess sometimes our brains and ears just makes us hear whatever we convince ourselves to hear.
By the way, I find way more similar melody lines between Til I die and You never give me your money, or Where is she? and She's leaving home for that matter.
Thanks for the great thread! Smiley


« Last Edit: February 13, 2019, 10:18:34 PM by louielouie » Logged
HeyJude
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« Reply #26 on: February 13, 2019, 07:50:13 AM »

I always appreciate a detailed breakdown of what someone hears (as opposed to just an offhand assertion without any explanation), and it's undoubtedly interesting to compare/contrast a song of Brian's and Paul's from a similar era.

But I just don't hear much specific similarity between "HT&E" and "YSBIM." To me,"HT&E" is one of a hand full of very clearly partially Brian/BB-influenced tracks, again similar to something like "Dear Boy" where you don't hear one particular song being clearly referenced, but rather an obvious general influence/nod, whatever one wants to call it.

I don't think HT&E/YSBIM is anywhere near the case of "My Sweet Lord"/"He's So Fine". In the case of the latter, you have the same exact three-note melody being sung over essentially the same two-chord motif (and there are further similarities as well).

HT&E and YSBIM don't have similar lead line melodies, nor do they have similar chord progressions.

I also don't even hear an obvious nod to YSBIM in HT&E in the way something like "Girl Don't Tell Me" is very obviously a nod to "Ticket to Ride" even though it doesn't literally re-use the same melody and chord progressions.

I have no reason to doubt a Brian/BB influence on HT&E. That influence could certainly have included YSBIM. But I don't think Paul wrote the song with one specific BB song on his mind, nor did he set about to ape one of their songs. If anything, I'd say the Brian/BB influence regarding the song was more on the arrangement/performance/recording side of things than the composing itself.
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« Reply #27 on: February 13, 2019, 08:37:57 AM »

I don't think HT&E/YSBIM is anywhere near the case of "My Sweet Lord"/"He's So Fine". In the case of the latter, you have the same exact three-note melody being sung over essentially the same two-chord motif (and there are further similarities as well).

Yes. In fact, if I may be so bold, I agree with Lennon that Harrison's use of He's So Fine was not subconscious at all but quite intentional.
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« Reply #28 on: February 13, 2019, 12:16:03 PM »

I don't think HT&E/YSBIM is anywhere near the case of "My Sweet Lord"/"He's So Fine". In the case of the latter, you have the same exact three-note melody being sung over essentially the same two-chord motif (and there are further similarities as well).

Yes. In fact, if I may be so bold, I agree with Lennon that Harrison's use of He's So Fine was not subconscious at all but quite intentional.

Yeah, I think it was a court that invoked the odd term "subconscious plagiarism" in that case.

I don't think Harrison set out to write a remake of "He's So Fine", so I suppose one could argue it was partially unintended. I think he had the influence in the back of his head, and there's a point at which if you riff exactly on the same melody line on top of the same chord sequence, it doesn't matter whether it was intentional or not.

I suppose the "Stay With Me/I Won't Back Down" situation from a few years ago was somewhat similar. The "Stay With Me" writers all claimed they had never heard "I Won't Back Down" (which seems far-fetched to me; or indicative of a pretty narrow breadth of knowledge of not-ancient pop music), but I have no problem believing that they didn't sit down intending to write a remake of "I Won't Back Down", or to sample that song. But again, same melody over the same chord sequence, so it doesn't matter.

The closest I can think of that the Beach Boys and Beatles ever came to "ripping" each others' song off would probably be "Girl Don't Tell Me", and even then it's not similar enough to warrant any songwriting credit changes. It's like a really good Rutles song.
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« Reply #29 on: February 13, 2019, 01:14:57 PM »

I don't think HT&E/YSBIM is anywhere near the case of "My Sweet Lord"/"He's So Fine". In the case of the latter, you have the same exact three-note melody being sung over essentially the same two-chord motif (and there are further similarities as well).

Yes. In fact, if I may be so bold, I agree with Lennon that Harrison's use of He's So Fine was not subconscious at all but quite intentional.

Yeah, I think it was a court that invoked the odd term "subconscious plagiarism" in that case.

I don't think Harrison set out to write a remake of "He's So Fine", so I suppose one could argue it was partially unintended. I think he had the influence in the back of his head, and there's a point at which if you riff exactly on the same melody line on top of the same chord sequence, it doesn't matter whether it was intentional or not.

I suppose the "Stay With Me/I Won't Back Down" situation from a few years ago was somewhat similar. The "Stay With Me" writers all claimed they had never heard "I Won't Back Down" (which seems far-fetched to me; or indicative of a pretty narrow breadth of knowledge of not-ancient pop music), but I have no problem believing that they didn't sit down intending to write a remake of "I Won't Back Down", or to sample that song. But again, same melody over the same chord sequence, so it doesn't matter.

The closest I can think of that the Beach Boys and Beatles ever came to "ripping" each others' song off would probably be "Girl Don't Tell Me", and even then it's not similar enough to warrant any songwriting credit changes. It's like a really good Rutles song.

This is all a matter of guessing, of course, but I think that George was even more intentional than that. It wouldn't have been the only time - the riff of If I Needed Someone is outright taken from The Byrds' Bells of Rhymney. Lyrics from The Inner Light and All Things Must Pass are pretty much word-for-word taken from other sources and uncredited. I don't criticize Harrison for this incidentally - and furthermore his hero Bob Dylan did this constantly, and still does.
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« Reply #30 on: February 13, 2019, 03:46:26 PM »

I didn't mean to imply that Paul's "copying" of YSBIM copied the actual tune as much as George and He's So Fine, just that the subconscious process was similar.
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