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Author Topic: "Sitar" on "All I Wanna Do" 1968  (Read 7108 times)
c-man
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« on: December 11, 2018, 06:41:19 PM »

Do we think this is a real sitar, or either (a) the Coral electric sitar, which was really more of an electric guitar with sympathetic strings resonating in a sitar-like fashion, or (b) a setting or combination of settings on the Rock-Si-Chord? 
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« Reply #1 on: December 11, 2018, 06:56:14 PM »

Do we think this is a real sitar, or either (a) the Coral electric sitar, which was really more of an electric guitar with sympathetic strings resonating in a sitar-like fashion, or (b) a setting or combination of settings on the Rock-Si-Chord?  

Man that is a tough one. I'm going with Coral electric sitar. I've played them - Hardly anyone uses the sympathetic drone strings. It's kind of a gimmick. The "sitar" quality is produced by a special plastic bridge that the strings lay on and which effectively buzzes and causes that faster buzzy decay, but other than that bridge it's a standard guitar tuned like a standard guitar. The bridges awhile back were going for high prices on Ebay because you could take any guitar in theory and jam one of those under the strings and have basically the Coral sound. Minus the drone strings which aren't used often and which can be a bear to tune (you get an Allen wrench to tune them if that gives an idea how temperamental and kind of pointless they are).

I'm hearing "All I Wanna Do (Early Version Track)", 2:24 in length, and at exactly 1:53 the person playing it flubs a note. I swear I hear a laugh at this point on the tape...which would suggest a close mic perhaps, and perhaps a legit sitar versus the Coral electric.

However - The rest of the part, all of those notes, are almost in perfectly straight intonation, no "bends" or bending of the pitches at all. That suggests a Coral with the guitar neck, and frets...Real sitars have the characteristic of bent notes, and when someone unfamiliar with the correct way to play one tries to play a sitar, it's all over the place with bends out of tune and whatnot. With the Coral, it's just like playing standard 6-string guitar.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2018, 06:57:45 PM by guitarfool2002 » Logged

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c-man
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« Reply #2 on: December 11, 2018, 07:06:58 PM »

Makes sense - thanks!
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DonnyL
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« Reply #3 on: December 11, 2018, 07:47:34 PM »

Not Rocksichord Smiley ... the Rocksichord is actually in there -- you can hear it play a little frill at the very end of the song, followed by what sounds like a note from a Moog?

The sitar sounds like an actual sitar to me ... or some similar sounding acoustic instrument.
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« Reply #4 on: December 11, 2018, 08:17:35 PM »

Not Rocksichord Smiley ... the Rocksichord is actually in there -- you can hear it play a little frill at the very end of the song, followed by what sounds like a note from a Moog?

The sitar sounds like an actual sitar to me ... or some similar sounding acoustic instrument.

Thanks - yeah, I figured the Roxi was in there, playing that part you described, since it's on other recordings from that immediate period. I'll have to listen for the Moogish note.
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« Reply #5 on: December 12, 2018, 09:57:31 AM »

c-man Craig--long since misplacing my notes from my time as a catalog assistant, I am trying to remember:

Is the console-tape/tape box indication for AIWD that has "Z-tar" as one of the tracks from this session or from the Gold Star session?
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« Reply #6 on: December 12, 2018, 10:07:35 AM »

To me, it sounds like both a real sitar, and a coral. Meaning two separate instruments used on the song.
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« Reply #7 on: December 12, 2018, 10:10:30 AM »

Are there any bent notes on the track? If not, that's one dead giveaway that it is *not* a real sitar because the nature and design of the instrument involves bending notes rather than "fretting" them straight-on, and unless you play all open strings on the instrument, you'll hear bent notes if it's a real sitar.

I hear no bent notes.

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« Reply #8 on: December 12, 2018, 10:19:09 AM »

c-man Craig--long since misplacing my notes from my time as a catalog assistant, I am trying to remember:

Is the console-tape/tape box indication for AIWD that has "Z-tar" as one of the tracks from this session or from the Gold Star session?

The Gold Star session, from a year later, which resulted in the Sunflower backing track. I've always imagined THAT version utilized a Coral electric sitar, and I can hear it twanging away faintly in the background right before they sing "My love is burning brightly", etc. (IIRC). Now, starting in the '80s, there was an actual instrument called a "Ztar", but I believe that's some MIDI contraption - definitely not something that would have been around in '68 or '69!
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« Reply #9 on: December 12, 2018, 12:01:15 PM »

Listened again more closely --

What I heard as some kind of Moog I believe is actually an electric 12 string (it's so reverberated it's hard to tell) -- playing the lead melody/riff, which the "sitar" doubling in spots, and playing by itself in others. The Rocksichord is the instrument in the right channel playing the main rhythm (which does a little frill at the end), followed by the elec 12 playing a single ending note.

The "sitar" instrument sounds distinctly acoustic to me. Not sure if it's a real sitar or what though. It honestly could be plucking harpsichord strings with a bobby pin or something for all we know.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2018, 02:31:27 PM by DonnyL » Logged

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« Reply #10 on: December 12, 2018, 01:25:41 PM »

I think it's an acoustic sitar.  Listen at 1:53, you can hear a little muffed entrance which suggests an acoustic instrument.

Also, note that the sitar sounding thing only plays like three different notes, I suspect they just tuned the open strings to the notes they wanted so nobody had to learn how to play it.  Could even be a tampura?
« Last Edit: December 12, 2018, 01:57:02 PM by aeijtzsche » Logged
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« Reply #11 on: December 12, 2018, 02:00:32 PM »

I think it's an acoustic sitar.  Listen at 1:53, you can hear a little muffed entrance which suggests an acoustic instrument.

Also, not that the sitar sounding thing only plays like three different notes, I suspect they just tuned the open strings to the notes they wanted so nobody had to learn how to play it.  Could even be a tampura?

I said the same thing above, but apart from that one point, do you hear any bends, wavering pitches, or any stray open notes that would suggest a real sitar?

Also, if as c man said there is an obvious electric sitar on later attempts at this song, would it not make as much sense that one was used here as well?

And just an aside, here we go again trying to suggest how many changes were made to an existing instrument in order to back up a theory, versus looking at the most common and perhaps most obvious answer as of 1968...that it was a Coral electric sitar, an instrument that was at that time ubiquitous in studios from LA, to Motown, to Memphis, and New York where Vinnie Bell who was the face of the instrument was based. It was all over the radio , am radio, at this exact time and far easier to find than an authentic sitar from India.
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« Reply #12 on: December 12, 2018, 02:36:46 PM »

I think it's an acoustic sitar.  Listen at 1:53, you can hear a little muffed entrance which suggests an acoustic instrument.

Also, not that the sitar sounding thing only plays like three different notes, I suspect they just tuned the open strings to the notes they wanted so nobody had to learn how to play it.  Could even be a tampura?

I said the same thing above, but apart from that one point, do you hear any bends, wavering pitches, or any stray open notes that would suggest a real sitar?

Also, if as c man said there is an obvious electric sitar on later attempts at this song, would it not make as much sense that one was used here as well?

And just an aside, here we go again trying to suggest how many changes were made to an existing instrument in order to back up a theory, versus looking at the most common and perhaps most obvious answer as of 1968...that it was a Coral electric sitar, an instrument that was at that time ubiquitous in studios from LA, to Motown, to Memphis, and New York where Vinnie Bell who was the face of the instrument was based. It was all over the radio , am radio, at this exact time and far easier to find than an authentic sitar from India.

To be fair, sitars are made to be tuned and retuned, to accommodate the various ragas.  Same goes for a tampura.

Could have Mike bought some instruments in India?  Maybe he saw Harrison fiddling around and thought he'd bring one back for the gang to try?

I don't hear any bends, but if they're not fretting it, that's not an issue.  Particularly if it's a tampura in which case there are no frets anyway.

If it is an electric sitar, it certainly sounds a lot different than your "Cry like a baby"s and what not.
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« Reply #13 on: December 12, 2018, 02:48:16 PM »

I think it's an acoustic sitar.  Listen at 1:53, you can hear a little muffed entrance which suggests an acoustic instrument.

Also, not that the sitar sounding thing only plays like three different notes, I suspect they just tuned the open strings to the notes they wanted so nobody had to learn how to play it.  Could even be a tampura?

I said the same thing above, but apart from that one point, do you hear any bends, wavering pitches, or any stray open notes that would suggest a real sitar?

Also, if as c man said there is an obvious electric sitar on later attempts at this song, would it not make as much sense that one was used here as well?

And just an aside, here we go again trying to suggest how many changes were made to an existing instrument in order to back up a theory, versus looking at the most common and perhaps most obvious answer as of 1968...that it was a Coral electric sitar, an instrument that was at that time ubiquitous in studios from LA, to Motown, to Memphis, and New York where Vinnie Bell who was the face of the instrument was based. It was all over the radio , am radio, at this exact time and far easier to find than an authentic sitar from India.

To be fair, sitars are made to be tuned and retuned, to accommodate the various ragas.  Same goes for a tampura.

Could have Mike bought some instruments in India?  Maybe he saw Harrison fiddling around and thought he'd bring one back for the gang to try?

I don't hear any bends, but if they're not fretting it, that's not an issue.  Particularly if it's a tampura in which case there are no frets anyway.

If it is an electric sitar, it certainly sounds a lot different than your "Cry like a baby"s and what not.

I don't have an opinion on this, but was at least one sitar in LA at this time. By 1968, Mike Deasy had recorded with one.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2018, 02:51:31 PM by SBonilla » Logged
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« Reply #14 on: December 12, 2018, 05:26:20 PM »

I trust what I'm hearing first and foremost, as memories are finicky and lore of the era can get into mythological territory. I've owned and actively used tons of old gear, including many of the same type instruments used on these classic sessions. For instance, I'm intimately familiar with the difference in sound between a '65 Fender XII direct into a UA 610 preamp vs. a Scully 280 ... and I did own (and make a record) on the actual Ampex AG300 8-track from Sunset Sound that recorded "San Miguel", "Celebrate the News", etc. ... not to brag but I'm gonna brag because that was like a dream come true. Smiley ... I know you folks on this thread have considerable knowledge and experience in this stuff.

I also think it's fair game to think of Brian Wilson doing weird, unusual things in the studio to get a sound. Though I don't think we should necessarily jump to that, if we're puzzled then it's reasonable to consider those angles. After all, what would we think of the beginning notes on "You Still Believe in Me" if we didn't know what was used to achieve it?

What I'm hearing on the mandolin-sound at the intro on "Wouldn't It Be Nice" is one electric 12-string guitar, and one acoustic instrument with octaves. I think the most logical answer for that is that it's a Bellzouki close-miked ... but I'm not married to that theory, just a best guess. I'm also open to the possibility of this being plugged in, but it sounds more acoustic to me.

On this '68 "All I Wanna Do", it sounds distinctly acoustic. I also felt like I was hearing an increase in tape hiss/background noise when the instrument is present ... so I even considered a Chamberlin tape of a sitar for a moment. Yet I don't believe Harry Chamberlin ever recorded or offered a sitar option (I've never heard of one and a quick online research session yielded nothing). Also, the bum note/laugh sort of rules that out. BUT the increase in hiss could actually be some kind of noise gate or manual fader rider ... in either case, this also suggests an acoustic instrument.

I do think the most likely answer is it's a regular sitar (sounds more like a sitar than a tampura to me, though I'm no expert in this area ... but they seem to have quite a drone).
« Last Edit: December 12, 2018, 06:21:20 PM by DonnyL » Logged

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« Reply #15 on: December 12, 2018, 06:57:40 PM »

The tampura/tanbura is not on this track. That instrument is played as a drone instrument, no notes are fretted or played as melody like the sitar.
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« Reply #16 on: December 12, 2018, 07:16:39 PM »

I just wanted to say this and clarify that I'm only doing a friendly debate here as usual. I may come off in some replies as a contrarian but my thought process on some of these "what did they play?" questions has changed a bit through the years for various reasons.

In this case, as mentioned, I played in the past the Coral electric sitar and copies of it through the years. I know the instrument and what it sounds like, and thanks to one particular former private student of mine (now roughly 12 years ago), I got into studying and playing Indian music, specifically the sitar, thanks to his interest in learning it. He wanted a real sitar at the time, but considering anything at a real quality level would come from India and would be very expensive all around, he settled on a Coral copy that was available at the time. He had no idea how to set it up and whatnot, so I learned how to and did it. We went through the little details of how the sitar is played and adapted it to the electric sitar which he had bought. It was one of the most cool and educational things I ever did as a musician, and opened up a new world outside the usual 6-string guitar universe. When you hear players like Harrison, Mike Bloomfield, Robby Krieger...you know they actually devoted their studies to it too because the little inflections come out when you know what to listen for. It was not "Raga Rock" to use a popular phrase of the 60's and early 70's, but real musicians actually devoting themselves to learn and adapt.

So I hear this outtake with a sitar part. Any guitarist could play it. It's simple. Nothing even as complex as "Norwegian Wood" or "Paint It Black", which were of course real sitars.

I factor in who could have played it at the session. Do we know? Was it a session player, or was it Carl? Was it Al perhaps?

Say it's Carl - He's a very utilitarian guitarist, in a very complementary way to use that terms. Carl was not flash and chops and shredding bullshit...Carl played just enough to make the song work. Carl was also not a guitar fiend and collector - His own descriptions of his guitar arsenal show that he used instruments that served the music, and worked for his needs in studio or stage. He didn't have several hundred guitars in a warehouse like Steve Howe or Rick Nielsen or Slash or collector/players like that.

Ok - So what would the most obvious first, go-to answer be for a part like we hear on these tracks? The Coral electric...Again, in '68 and thereabouts, it was almost ubiquitous.

SBonilla is correct...As far as I've been able to gather, Mike Deasy was the "sitar guy" in the LA studio scene. He did indeed have an authentic sitar, and got tons of jobs because of it, similar to how in London Jimmy Page got called because he was the guy with the fuzz box for trippy sessions and sounds. Deasy was also the guy who would get called specifically for far-out, psychedelic sounds and fuzzed-out tones. That was his calling card...Need a trippy guitar sound in LA? Hire Deasy.  Listen to his Friar Tuck solo album for examples, haha...

In my mind, if this was a self-contained Beach Boys session, and we hear the very basic results of that "sitar" part, I'd logically say it was probably the Coral electric. Having played one and learned it and all of that myself, that's a different judgement set altogether, and in that case it sounds like a Coral.

But I go by chances of it being something over another, and those guesses based on everything point me to the Coral.


The funny part of it all is that someone will come along with proof that it was a real sitar from India, and at that point I'll gladly say "My bad, I was wrong and my ears were wrong too".  LOL

But at this point, the specific part sounds more like a Coral than a real sitar based on what I hear on the track. And again, it's not arguing but just a healthy debate with reasoning offered behind the opinions and statements. It's not pulling stuff out of thin air.

And it could all be wrong.  Grin
« Last Edit: December 12, 2018, 07:17:36 PM by guitarfool2002 » Logged

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« Reply #17 on: December 12, 2018, 07:27:39 PM »

Tempura? What kind of instrument is that of? I'm familiar with the fried breading only...
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Joshilyn Hoisington
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« Reply #18 on: December 12, 2018, 07:32:31 PM »

Tempura? What kind of instrument is that of? I'm familiar with the fried breading only...

It's a fairly standard Indian classical music accompanying instrument, providing a constant series of drone notes.  It's more or less a fretless sitar, usually tuned to what we would call the tonic and the dominant tones of the raga.





It makes a lot of sense on this track because it doesn't seem like the "sitar" player is playing anything other than open strings.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2018, 07:34:51 PM by aeijtzsche » Logged
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« Reply #19 on: December 12, 2018, 07:33:26 PM »

Tempura? What kind of instrument is that of? I'm familiar with the fried breading only...

It's an instrument from the Indian subcontinent, similar in sound to a sitar, but not fretted, as mentioned above - and therefore used only for drone sounds in the background. Harrison played one on "It's Getting Better" (listen to the middle of that tune, and you'll hear it). I think it's also on "Lucy In The Sky".
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« Reply #20 on: December 12, 2018, 07:34:17 PM »

Tempura? What kind of instrument is that of? I'm familiar with the fried breading only...

 LOL I think the same thing, and it makes me hungry...

Here's how The Beatles used one in '67, isolated track: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJGBxtezwzo

As you'll hear with the BB's fellow travelers across the Atlantic...it's a totally different sound than what's on this BB's track/session.
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« Reply #21 on: December 12, 2018, 07:39:36 PM »

Wow that is really cool! I actually have seen that instrument before but I never knew what it was called. is it bad I think I want one now?
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« Reply #22 on: December 12, 2018, 07:46:44 PM »

Wow that is really cool! I actually have seen that instrument before but I never knew what it was called. is it bad I think I want one now?

Not at all, in fact I almost bought one myself many years ago when I was studying Indian music, but in those days it was hard to find a reputable place to order one from in India without the internet.

I did once see a sitar in an american music store, and got to play it, which was neat.
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« Reply #23 on: December 12, 2018, 08:50:33 PM »

Tempura? What kind of instrument is that of? I'm familiar with the fried breading only...

Tampura. LOL

Quote
I did once see a sitar in an american music store, and got to play it, which was neat.

I haven't played one but my daughter has!
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« Reply #24 on: December 13, 2018, 02:13:33 PM »

Tempura? What kind of instrument is that of? I'm familiar with the fried breading only...

Tampura. LOL

Quote
I did once see a sitar in an american music store, and got to play it, which was neat.

I haven't played one but my daughter has!

I've always known the tanpura by the name tamboura. Maybe it's like Bombay now being Mumbai or something. It's my favourite Indian instrument, me being a fan of drones. Roll Eyes

My former landlord had a sitar but could only manage a few notes. I had a brief bash on it once--he got jealous and asked for it back. Grin
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