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Author Topic: Rocky Pamplin's THE BEACH BOYS' ENDLESS WAVE completed and published  (Read 50185 times)
Jim V.
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« Reply #300 on: February 02, 2019, 09:29:14 AM »

As to the "cousin of the Wilson's," we didn't sacrifice anything or avoid antagonizing Mike Love. Whether you like it or not Mike Love is the most instrumental reason that the BB survived all these years. If you love the band then the fact that they are still around is because of HIM.

Um. I think I'd credit Brian's MUSIC as the reason that The Beach Boys still matter. I think having a "Beach Boys" on the road isn't necessarily a good thing. I bet they woulda been playing much bigger venues in 2012 if Mike hadn't been out there "keeping the band around" since 1998.
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« Reply #301 on: February 02, 2019, 10:07:56 AM »


As to accuracy, I have admitted that we did not come up to the standards of the aficionados on this Site.
As to the "cousin of the Wilson's," we didn't sacrifice anything or avoid antagonizing Mike Love. Whether you like it or not Mike Love is the most instrumental reason that the BB survived all these years. If you love the band then the fact that they are still around is because of HIM. You may not like him for whatever reason, but he is the glue that kept that show on the road, day in and day out, year after year,  period. Have some respect. He earned it. Because we did not choose to investigate certain areas was the publishers choice for the kind of book he would be willing to publish.
That's sho biz. Try getting a book published about rich, powerful and successful people and run into the exigencies of that world before you squawk.


"If you love the band then the fact that they are still around is because of HIM."

Ron, I've tried to respectfully engage in discussions about your book and avoid the pitfalls of name-calling and whatnot, and encourage a dialogue. However, a comment like this comes off sounding ridiculous. If you're stating it as fact, then it's all but "game on" and I'll openly say this is a load of crap and couldn't be further from the truth. If it's opinion, I'll challenge it and my view leans more toward what Jim V just posted above: The magic of this band is, has been, and will always be those glorious records Brian made over 50 years ago that continue to touch and inspire generations of fans. The fact Mike Love is "still tourin'" having paid for the license and rights to bill his band as "The Beach Boys" wouldn't amount to a hill of beans if not for those records Brian was creating back in the 60's which people enjoy. Those records from the 60's are the true Rosetta Stone of this band's history...everything else is icing on the cake. If someone can prove me wrong, please go ahead and engage.

But to make such a statement, Ron, doesn't do you or the book any good because it comes off as ass-kissing to Mike Love, and beyond that it's undeserved. That's my opinion. The fact is as clear as actually digging into the history of the band and seeing why the Beach Boys are legends - And it's not Mike's touring band responsible for that, nor was it Mike's actions over the past 40 years.
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« Reply #302 on: February 02, 2019, 10:40:56 AM »

On a similar note, in light of the comments above, I'd like to ask Ron - if he chooses - to offer his opinions on a few of Rocky's comments from previous years:

Doo Dah, you have found the answer why Mike is so angry recently about the songwriting lawsuit from 1994.

He wants the catalog or money from BW when it comes up for ownership changes in under the 1976 copyright act. Actual songwriting credits on those songs be damned. Evil

I'm just saying, it occurred to me last night. What would appear to be ancient history (circa 1992) is not quite so ancient.
Smiley Smiley BINGO...and Mike will do "ANYTHING" to get the ownership of Brian's Music Publishing Catalogue... "Actual songwriting credits BE DAMNED!  Well said Doo Dah... I take my hat off to you!  This is exactly what Stephen and I were hoping would happen..."TALK ABOUT and EXPOSING Mike!" Melinda Wilson is the "ONE" who really needs to be INFORMED... and made AWARE! She is very bright and definitely has Brian's best interest at heart! Smiley Smiley



Mike is loveless when it comes to Brian... Money is Mike's God!  He can't write songs so he sues Brian!  Ask Jerome Billet!


Smiley :)I REPEAT... MIKE IS CONDESCENDING TOWARDS BRIAN...  THINKS HE'S BETTER THAN BRIAN...  LOL LOL  IF YOU ONLY KNEW THE HALF OF IT! Smiley Smiley DON'T LET MIKE'S FAKE MEDITATION FOOL YA!
iT'S MORE LIKE "SCHEMATATION!" LOL LOL  There's a lyric for ya mike-y... ask Brian if he wants to "USE" that one... KIND OF LIKE "THE SURF WORD MAN" eh! (CURRENT AFFAIR 1994)


Smiley Smiley Page 2... SNEAKY STAN TAPED IT... and that's not all STAN TAPED... Wait till Mike-y gets an earful of the "SMOKING GUN TAPE"... where Stan tapes he and I talking about...          WHO LIED BEST IN COURT FOR... MIKE Evil Evil



Brian seems to have been surrounded by clowns on that occasion.
Smiley The BIGGEST CLOWN is YOUR BOY...mike-y... and then YOU!  He's not paying you enough, chump LOL  Course you're not doing enough!   You both suck LOL   LOL  The GREATEST MELTDOWN ever to be filmed... is THE CLOWN mike-y... at THE ROCK & ROLL HALL OF FAME induction ceremony in 1988.   THE BIGGEST FOOL to EVER STEP FOOT ON A STAGE... He will NEVER be able to ESCAPE THIS SELF-INFLICTED SOCIAL SUICIDE...  And he wonders why the whole world thinks he's a CLOWN!  Angry   Thud Wall  Thud


That's just a sampling. Again, we've discussed it before, but generally the same source who spoke that way roughly 3 years ago in public is not going to suddenly decide Mike Love is the exalted Savior of The Beach Boys unless something really drastic happened in the interim...Call it a "Come To Mike" or "Come To Maharishi" moment?  LOL

Anyway, it's f*cked up.
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The LEGENDARY OSD
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« Reply #303 on: February 02, 2019, 11:12:34 AM »

 w00t! w00t! w00t! w00t! w00t! w00t! w00t! w00t!
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« Reply #304 on: February 02, 2019, 03:22:32 PM »

Thanks, GF--bringing Rocky's prior less-than-salutary remarks about Mike back into easy access makes the point that several of us were referencing more indirectly during the course of this thread. That's why it's so important to leave everything up and available here--that way the public record of what was said remains continuously accessible to forestall any instances of "faulty memory."

I'm glad Mike kept touring, as I think the net effect of that effort was positive, but to suggest that it was the primary reason anyone remembered the band is silly at best. Just as it's silly--dangerously misguided, in fact--to think that Mike's creative contribution to the band is within several standard deviations of Brian's (though Mike has managed to convince himself of that, and has spent years slagging his cousins in a shameless attempt to elevate his position by besmirching their reputations).

It's pretty revealing to see how Rocky and his book, which for all of its faults/foibles had an opportunity to dig into some areas that would have produced some "inconvenient narratives," was mysteriously "de-fanged." Either Rocky was talking out of his hat, or a number of things have been swept under the rug.
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« Reply #305 on: February 02, 2019, 07:29:26 PM »



Try getting a book published about rich, powerful and successful people and run into the exigencies of that world before you squawk.



Much more eloquent but the sentiment is all Rocky.  Wink

Good luck anyway Ron, but probably not the market here TBH.

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Jim V.
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« Reply #306 on: February 03, 2019, 12:19:21 PM »

So, uh, well I've got an idea. I'm not sure if our beloved mods will go for it, but here goes...

I know he's currently persona non grata on this board, but wouldn't it be interesting to invite ol' Rushton Pamplin back here. I have an odd feeling that if we told him that we and the public felt that Ronnie Reynaldo screwed up what coulda been an awesome "tell all" that he wouldn't be very happy about this and might be willing to explain how he got "bullied" himself into putting out this book that in no way represents him.
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« Reply #307 on: February 03, 2019, 05:26:03 PM »

CONTROVERSIAL POST WARNING:

I will give Mike significantly more credit than most on this board for his *creative contribution* to the early '60s hits ... even go out on a limb and say his contributions to some of these hits were near-equal to Brian's from a *commercial* standpoint. I don't think Bruce was wrong in that doc when he said Mike "translated" Brian's tunes into something for the masses.

BUT -- Mike taking "The Beach Boys" on the road year after year, without the actual Beach Boys, does nothing to keep the "group" alive. I can't imagine it being anything but *bad* for their reputation, as noted above. I understand all involved parties benefit financially as a result ... and I'm fairly certain that is the main factor in why the enterprise continues.
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« Reply #308 on: February 03, 2019, 07:29:16 PM »

CONTROVERSIAL POST WARNING:

I will give Mike significantly more credit than most on this board for his *creative contribution* to the early '60s hits ... even go out on a limb and say his contributions to some of these hits were near-equal to Brian's from a *commercial* standpoint. I don't think Bruce was wrong in that doc when he said Mike "translated" Brian's tunes into something for the masses.

BUT -- Mike taking "The Beach Boys" on the road year after year, without the actual Beach Boys, does nothing to keep the "group" alive. I can't imagine it being anything but *bad* for their reputation, as noted above. I understand all involved parties benefit financially as a result ... and I'm fairly certain that is the main factor in why the enterprise continues.

+1

Nothing controversial IMO.
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« Reply #309 on: February 03, 2019, 07:49:26 PM »

CONTROVERSIAL POST WARNING:

I will give Mike significantly more credit than most on this board for his *creative contribution* to the early '60s hits ... even go out on a limb and say his contributions to some of these hits were near-equal to Brian's from a *commercial* standpoint. I don't think Bruce was wrong in that doc when he said Mike "translated" Brian's tunes into something for the masses.

BUT -- Mike taking "The Beach Boys" on the road year after year, without the actual Beach Boys, does nothing to keep the "group" alive. I can't imagine it being anything but *bad* for their reputation, as noted above. I understand all involved parties benefit financially as a result ... and I'm fairly certain that is the main factor in why the enterprise continues.

-100 on the first paragraph. If that is what you believe then you are falling victim to what Mike has been trying in vain to do by rewriting history and convincing people that Brian relied on him to write the hits. It's hard to believe that anyone could ever fall for Love's ultimate goal in that he's as talented as Brian Wilson. But I do concur with your second paragraph wholeheartedly.
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« Reply #310 on: February 03, 2019, 10:12:30 PM »

CONTROVERSIAL POST WARNING:

I will give Mike significantly more credit than most on this board for his *creative contribution* to the early '60s hits ... even go out on a limb and say his contributions to some of these hits were near-equal to Brian's from a *commercial* standpoint. I don't think Bruce was wrong in that doc when he said Mike "translated" Brian's tunes into something for the masses.

BUT -- Mike taking "The Beach Boys" on the road year after year, without the actual Beach Boys, does nothing to keep the "group" alive. I can't imagine it being anything but *bad* for their reputation, as noted above. I understand all involved parties benefit financially as a result ... and I'm fairly certain that is the main factor in why the enterprise continues.

-100 on the first paragraph. If that is what you believe then you are falling victim to what Mike has been trying in vain to do by rewriting history and convincing people that Brian relied on him to write the hits. It's hard to believe that anyone could ever fall for Love's ultimate goal in that he's as talented as Brian Wilson. But I do concur with your second paragraph wholeheartedly.

Hence the controversy -- that we can not play politics for once on this board, and give credit where credit is due ... while also calling out the parts that are shitty.

I'm not "falling victim" to anything except my own ears and understanding of the group, their music, and their history. Brian wrote plenty of hits without Mike ... and clearly, some may argue that Brian's artistry would have been better off without him. BUT let's not minimize the commercial value of a round-round-get-around-bom-bom-dip-di-dip ... those are the HOOKS ... let's not overstate the commercial value of the weirder aspects of the best creations from Brian. My opinion is Brian knew quite well his strengths and limitations, which is why he worked with Mike in the way he did. And the commercial success of the early records gave Brian an outlet for Pet Sounds to happen.

Additionally -- with all due respect, this is where you're a toxic poster man, and quite frankly why this place is the pits to visit these days. "If you believe this, you're brainwashed ..." HA gimme a break

You're baiting people into arguing by making it personal *RIGHT OFF THE BAT*
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« Reply #311 on: February 03, 2019, 10:26:20 PM »

Donny, all personal squabbles and shots taken at this board aside, do you not agree that Mike Love has a history of trying to take more credit for the band's success and legacy than is due in reality, and doing so in large part by bringing up the problems with the Wilson brothers? It feels like he has too often tried to elevate himself by denigrating the Wilsons, and back to the topic of Ron's book with Rocky, that same emphasis on the negative regarding the Wilsons while overreaching on the credit  given Mike seems to be the main issue people seem to have as a negative opinion on the book.
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« Reply #312 on: February 03, 2019, 10:29:16 PM »

CONTROVERSIAL POST WARNING:

I will give Mike significantly more credit than most on this board for his *creative contribution* to the early '60s hits ... even go out on a limb and say his contributions to some of these hits were near-equal to Brian's from a *commercial* standpoint. I don't think Bruce was wrong in that doc when he said Mike "translated" Brian's tunes into something for the masses.

BUT -- Mike taking "The Beach Boys" on the road year after year, without the actual Beach Boys, does nothing to keep the "group" alive. I can't imagine it being anything but *bad* for their reputation, as noted above. I understand all involved parties benefit financially as a result ... and I'm fairly certain that is the main factor in why the enterprise continues.

-100 on the first paragraph. If that is what you believe then you are falling victim to what Mike has been trying in vain to do by rewriting history and convincing people that Brian relied on him to write the hits. It's hard to believe that anyone could ever fall for Love's ultimate goal in that he's as talented as Brian Wilson. But I do concur with your second paragraph wholeheartedly.

Hence the controversy -- that we can not play politics for once on this board, and give credit where credit is due ... while also calling out the parts that are shitty.

I'm not "falling victim" to anything except my own ears and understanding of the group, their music, and their history. Brian wrote plenty of hits without Mike ... and clearly, some may argue that Brian's artistry would have been better off without him. BUT let's not minimize the commercial value of a round-round-get-around-bom-bom-dip-di-dip ... those are the HOOKS ... let's not overstate the commercial value of the weirder aspects of the best creations from Brian. My opinion is Brian knew quite well his strengths and limitations, which is why he worked with Mike in the way he did. And the commercial success of the early records gave Brian an outlet for Pet Sounds to happen.

Additionally -- with all due respect, this is where you're a toxic poster man, and quite frankly why this place is the pits to visit these days. "If you believe this, you're brainwashed ..." HA gimme a break

You're baiting people into arguing by making it personal *RIGHT OFF THE BAT*

I concur that regardless of what one may think of Mike's actions, especially over the last several decades, those early contributions of his were ace.  There's absolutely nothing "wrong" with Warmth of the Sun or Please Let Me Wonder, for example.

Even if somebody believes that Brian could've come up with songs of that caliber without Mike, and he very possibly could have, those 2 songs for starters probably wouldn't exist in their exact incarnations that they do today, so there's no denying that Mike made many positive contributions to the band, and these are just two of them. 

There's also *plenty* to talk about on the other side of that equation too (anybody who tries to pretend that's not the case is delusional), but the man does deserve his due for the good stuff.  The small handful of people who refuse to say objectively true negative things about him are probably coming from an overcompensating place to counteract the people who won't say anything good about the *actually* objectively good things Mike did. The man may act poorly, and he may overreach for credits, but his talent on songs like those, and those unfortunate traits are not mutually exclusive.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2019, 10:35:35 PM by CenturyDeprived » Logged
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« Reply #313 on: February 03, 2019, 10:42:12 PM »

CD - I think the instances of people trying to strip Mike of the credit he deserves are and have been overstated by those same groups who are overcompensating on the whole deal, as you just put it so well. But it hasn't helped that Mike himself has said so much of what he said and overreached for credit or even accolades beyond the norm.

I'm the first to say songs like California Girls, Warmth Of The Sun, and Kiss Me Baby among others are brilliant songs from the Wilson/Love collaboration.

But I'm also curious what you think Mike contributed to Please Let Me Wonder since you mention that specifically.
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« Reply #314 on: February 03, 2019, 10:51:49 PM »

Donny, all personal squabbles and shots taken at this board aside, do you not agree that Mike Love has a history of trying to take more credit for the band's success and legacy than is due in reality, and doing so in large part by bringing up the problems with the Wilson brothers? It feels like he has too often tried to elevate himself by denigrating the Wilsons, and back to the topic of Ron's book with Rocky, that same emphasis on the negative regarding the Wilsons while overreaching on the credit  given Mike seems to be the main issue people seem to have as a negative opinion on the book.


*shots at the board = posters like OSD create an unsavory environment, in which folks are not able to state a simple opinion without him "reframing" it to suggest some kind of brainwashing by Mike Love. I would ask you if you think that kind of post contributes to be type of board you want to see.

And I agree 100% with what you wrote above. But doesn't mean there's not some truth in Mike's position ... he clearly has a chip on his shoulder about it all.
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« Reply #315 on: February 03, 2019, 10:55:57 PM »

And it's true ... if I'm being honest, the board has always been troubled, but the types of conversations that used to be so interesting are now filled with some kind of undercurrent of politics.
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« Reply #316 on: February 03, 2019, 11:06:37 PM »

CD - I think the instances of people trying to strip Mike of the credit he deserves are and have been overstated by those same groups who are overcompensating on the whole deal, as you just put it so well. But it hasn't helped that Mike himself has said so much of what he said and overreached for credit or even accolades beyond the norm.

I'm the first to say songs like California Girls, Warmth Of The Sun, and Kiss Me Baby among others are brilliant songs from the Wilson/Love collaboration.

But I'm also curious what you think Mike contributed to Please Let Me Wonder since you mention that specifically.

It's a good question about PLMW… It's possible that the extent of his contributions are what's heard on the early version with Mike on lead vocals, singing lyrics which were eventually changed to the final lyric set.  I find it very, very odd that that version has not been officially released… Baffling really.  To me that song is the beginning of Pet Sounds.  In fact I think I like the song better than any song on Pet Sounds, to be honest.  For that reason alone I am incredibly curious to know what Mike actually contributed to the song, and why the early version has never been officially released (the SOT boot could work as a source if tapes are missing, right?)

In any case, it's absolutely true that any book that is so drastically different from those original posts by Rocky cannot be taken seriously. There's no way anybody can minimize or explain away the dramatic 180 spin and maintain credibility.  Because it wasn't just that negative Mike things were simply cut out, but the additional action of apparently making the book a giant praise Mike fest is just beyond laughable when one compares it to the original Rocky posts on this board.  It's like going from uncensored 1987 gory arms-being-blown-off mutilation chic Robocop to Saturday morning G-rated cartoon Robocop for the kiddies.

I can empathize with anybody involved with a project encountering red lights and being forced to do things because of the threat of legal action. It's essentially like watching Wonder Years episodes with music replacement. No way around it. But something like this  getting heaps of criticism is to be expected, and I can't believe that anybody associated with the book wouldn't completely, 100% understand why the criticism is justified for that very reason.

I get that the author wants to defend the book so that the project can still have a degree of success, but it's essentially like saying "well great care was taken in choosing the songs that we replaced the unobtainable music with, we got the very best soundalikes available!")

That said, I haven't read the book, and maybe there are still some decent parts to it, despite the fact that large swaths of it are apparently to be taken with a grain of salt.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2019, 11:15:44 PM by CenturyDeprived » Logged
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« Reply #317 on: February 03, 2019, 11:09:57 PM »

Donny, all personal squabbles and shots taken at this board aside, do you not agree that Mike Love has a history of trying to take more credit for the band's success and legacy than is due in reality, and doing so in large part by bringing up the problems with the Wilson brothers? It feels like he has too often tried to elevate himself by denigrating the Wilsons, and back to the topic of Ron's book with Rocky, that same emphasis on the negative regarding the Wilsons while overreaching on the credit  given Mike seems to be the main issue people seem to have as a negative opinion on the book.


*shots at the board = posters like OSD create an unsavory environment, in which folks are not able to state a simple opinion without him "reframing" it to suggest some kind of brainwashing by Mike Love. I would ask you if you think that kind of post contributes to be type of board you want to see.

And I agree 100% with what you wrote above. But doesn't mean there's not some truth in Mike's position ... he clearly has a chip on his shoulder about it all.

I'll say honestly there are a lot of posts that I think could or should have been worded differently or opinions expressed differently, my own included. But it's not enough of a grounds to charge the entire community with being this or that based on those things you or I may not agree with. It's one of the things that comes with having an open forum, and the option is there to ignore anything anyone wants to ignore, or challenge as you did and have a dialogue about it.


I think the chips on Mike's shoulders are more about issues Mike himself needs to deal with personally than they are about the reality of how many times he got screwed by his cousins the Wilsons,  and Al Jardine, and his brother Stephen, and whoever else he points a finger at on any number of issues on any given day. I do feel, as an opinion, that Mike likes to portray himself as a victim and give himself the accolades he wished he got from the public and the fanbase overall. And in doing so he too often overcompensates and reaches too far beyond reality. Ego. And he also wishes he got the accolades Brian gets (and deserves) especially for the truly classic 60's Capitol years. But the reality doesnt always support what Mike wishes it did.
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« Reply #318 on: February 03, 2019, 11:22:17 PM »

And it's true ... if I'm being honest, the board has always been troubled, but the types of conversations that used to be so interesting are now filled with some kind of undercurrent of politics.


Which types of conversations are you referring to?

It's also important to remember how many boards there were, say, 15 years ago and how all of them had various troubles. And note that out of all of them, this one is still active and survived all of that, and whatever reasons caused the others to either fail or wither away. The politics you may be speaking of were always there on ALL of these BB related forums, but starting in fall 2012 it started getting a lot more intense and defined. It's pretty easy to see why given that timeline.
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« Reply #319 on: February 03, 2019, 11:31:15 PM »

CD - I think the instances of people trying to strip Mike of the credit he deserves are and have been overstated by those same groups who are overcompensating on the whole deal, as you just put it so well. But it hasn't helped that Mike himself has said so much of what he said and overreached for credit or even accolades beyond the norm.

I'm the first to say songs like California Girls, Warmth Of The Sun, and Kiss Me Baby among others are brilliant songs from the Wilson/Love collaboration.

But I'm also curious what you think Mike contributed to Please Let Me Wonder since you mention that specifically.

It's a good question about PLMW… It's possible that the extent of his contributions are what's heard on the early version with Mike on lead vocals, singing lyrics which were eventually changed to the final lyric set.  I find it very, very odd that that version has not been officially released… Baffling really.  To me that song is the beginning of Pet Sounds.  In fact I think I like the song better than any song on Pet Sounds, to be honest.  For that reason alone I am incredibly curious to know what Mike actually contributed to the song, and why the early version has never been officially released (the SOT boot could work as a source if tapes are missing, right?)

In any case, it's absolutely true that any book that is so drastically different from those original posts by Rocky cannot be taken seriously. There's no way anybody can minimize or explain away the dramatic 180 spin and maintain credibility.  Because it wasn't just that negative Mike things were simply cut out, but the additional action of apparently making the book a giant praise Mike fest is just beyond laughable when one compares it to the original Rocky posts on this board.  It's like going from uncensored 1987 gory arms-being-blown-off mutilation chic Robocop to Saturday morning G-rated cartoon Robocop for the kiddies.

I can empathize with anybody involved with a project encountering red lights and being forced to do things because of the threat of legal action. It's essentially like watching Wonder Years episodes with music replacement. No way around it. But something like this  getting heaps of criticism is to be expected, and I can't believe that anybody associated with the book wouldn't completely, 100% understand why the criticism is justified for that very reason.

I get that the author wants to defend the book so that the project can still have a degree of success, but it's essentially like saying "well great care was taken in choosing the songs that we replaced the unobtainable music with, we got the very best soundalikes available!")

That said, I haven't read the book, and maybe there are still some decent parts to it, despite the fact that large swaths of it are apparently to be taken with a grain of salt.

Agreed about the issues with the book. What you said about music replacement reminded me exactly of WKRP in Cincinnati, and how I remember Al kooper saying what a travesty it was to watch the episodes in syndication with the original music replaced.

PLMW is an interesting case, because not only is there the early version that you mentioned, But be sure to check out the later cover tribute version where Mike and Bruce wrote new lyrics to replace Brian's original instrumental Bridge. And if you hear the lyrics, they sound like they are coming from a totally different voice than that which wrote the original. Which would be odd if Mike did have as much of a hand in writing the original as he was awarded credit.

So it is just one of the more prominent cases of asking, well what if someone were to suggest that Brian wrote most or all of those lyrics and Mike did less than he was credited for. A pure hypothetical exercise to consider. And if you hear Brian in those words as well as the music which he obviously did, versus the voices of those who went back decades later and wrote a new section for the song that sounds like it's from Mars versus the original. In my opinion.
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« Reply #320 on: February 03, 2019, 11:41:32 PM »

CD - I think the instances of people trying to strip Mike of the credit he deserves are and have been overstated by those same groups who are overcompensating on the whole deal, as you just put it so well. But it hasn't helped that Mike himself has said so much of what he said and overreached for credit or even accolades beyond the norm.

I'm the first to say songs like California Girls, Warmth Of The Sun, and Kiss Me Baby among others are brilliant songs from the Wilson/Love collaboration.

But I'm also curious what you think Mike contributed to Please Let Me Wonder since you mention that specifically.

It's a good question about PLMW… It's possible that the extent of his contributions are what's heard on the early version with Mike on lead vocals, singing lyrics which were eventually changed to the final lyric set.  I find it very, very odd that that version has not been officially released… Baffling really.  To me that song is the beginning of Pet Sounds.  In fact I think I like the song better than any song on Pet Sounds, to be honest.  For that reason alone I am incredibly curious to know what Mike actually contributed to the song, and why the early version has never been officially released (the SOT boot could work as a source if tapes are missing, right?)

In any case, it's absolutely true that any book that is so drastically different from those original posts by Rocky cannot be taken seriously. There's no way anybody can minimize or explain away the dramatic 180 spin and maintain credibility.  Because it wasn't just that negative Mike things were simply cut out, but the additional action of apparently making the book a giant praise Mike fest is just beyond laughable when one compares it to the original Rocky posts on this board.  It's like going from uncensored 1987 gory arms-being-blown-off mutilation chic Robocop to Saturday morning G-rated cartoon Robocop for the kiddies.

I can empathize with anybody involved with a project encountering red lights and being forced to do things because of the threat of legal action. It's essentially like watching Wonder Years episodes with music replacement. No way around it. But something like this  getting heaps of criticism is to be expected, and I can't believe that anybody associated with the book wouldn't completely, 100% understand why the criticism is justified for that very reason.

I get that the author wants to defend the book so that the project can still have a degree of success, but it's essentially like saying "well great care was taken in choosing the songs that we replaced the unobtainable music with, we got the very best soundalikes available!")

That said, I haven't read the book, and maybe there are still some decent parts to it, despite the fact that large swaths of it are apparently to be taken with a grain of salt.

Agreed about the issues with the book. What you said about music replacement reminded me exactly of WKRP in Cincinnati, and how I remember Al kooper saying what a travesty it was to watch the episodes in syndication with the original music replaced.

PLMW is an interesting case, because not only is there the early version that you mentioned, But be sure to check out the later cover tribute version where Mike and Bruce wrote new lyrics to replace Brian's original instrumental Bridge. And if you hear the lyrics, they sound like they are coming from a totally different voice than that which wrote the original. Which would be odd if Mike did have as much of a hand in writing the original as he was awarded credit.

So it is just one of the more prominent cases of asking, well what if someone were to suggest that Brian wrote most or all of those lyrics and Mike did less than he was credited for. A pure hypothetical exercise to consider. And if you hear Brian in those words as well as the music which he obviously did, versus the voices of those who went back decades later and wrote a new section for the song that sounds like it's from Mars versus the original. In my opinion.

I could easily believe that Brian had almost everything to do with the lyrics on the final PLMW version, just as easily as I could believe that Mike contributed a good portion of it. There's nothing about the lyrics that scream "Mike absolutely clearly wrote this" to my ears, but he has also proven himself capable of writing plenty of great lyrics, so who knows.   The lyrics are also very heartfelt and feel very Brian-like to me also.

Two things are certain… Mike can write great lyrics when he wants to, and he also has a history of overreaching for credits, probably in part due to the fact that he was legitimately screwed over for years and it messed with his head. And he was/is seemingly also quite greedy. Chicken or egg argument. Lots of inconvenient and contradictory things seem to have some truth in the equation, making for a very murky way for ascertaining what the real truth is here.

One thing that I will say is that I think Brian was very capable at writing solid lyrics. Just look at ITBOMM from the same era.  Makes me wonder if Brian lacked self-confidence on the lyrics front due to not getting much praise or positive feedback in that area, especially from those who stood to benefit from helping Brian feel the need to reach out for help.  That said, I'm sure he was overwhelmed and it was probably a load off his back to delegate lyric writing to others. Again, the truth probably falls somewhere in the middle here.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2019, 11:44:06 PM by CenturyDeprived » Logged
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« Reply #321 on: February 04, 2019, 12:34:25 AM »

Donny, all personal squabbles and shots taken at this board aside, do you not agree that Mike Love has a history of trying to take more credit for the band's success and legacy than is due in reality, and doing so in large part by bringing up the problems with the Wilson brothers? It feels like he has too often tried to elevate himself by denigrating the Wilsons, and back to the topic of Ron's book with Rocky, that same emphasis on the negative regarding the Wilsons while overreaching on the credit  given Mike seems to be the main issue people seem to have as a negative opinion on the book.


To be fair, prior to say 1966 (the period Donny refers to) I would say no.

For many decades since? Obviously.
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« Reply #322 on: February 04, 2019, 07:37:06 AM »

CONTROVERSIAL POST WARNING:

I will give Mike significantly more credit than most on this board for his *creative contribution* to the early '60s hits ... even go out on a limb and say his contributions to some of these hits were near-equal to Brian's from a *commercial* standpoint. I don't think Bruce was wrong in that doc when he said Mike "translated" Brian's tunes into something for the masses.

BUT -- Mike taking "The Beach Boys" on the road year after year, without the actual Beach Boys, does nothing to keep the "group" alive. I can't imagine it being anything but *bad* for their reputation, as noted above. I understand all involved parties benefit financially as a result ... and I'm fairly certain that is the main factor in why the enterprise continues.

-100 on the first paragraph. If that is what you believe then you are falling victim to what Mike has been trying in vain to do by rewriting history and convincing people that Brian relied on him to write the hits. It's hard to believe that anyone could ever fall for Love's ultimate goal in that he's as talented as Brian Wilson. But I do concur with your second paragraph wholeheartedly.

Hence the controversy -- that we can not play politics for once on this board, and give credit where credit is due ... while also calling out the parts that are shitty.

I'm not "falling victim" to anything except my own ears and understanding of the group, their music, and their history. Brian wrote plenty of hits without Mike ... and clearly, some may argue that Brian's artistry would have been better off without him. BUT let's not minimize the commercial value of a round-round-get-around-bom-bom-dip-di-dip ... those are the HOOKS ... let's not overstate the commercial value of the weirder aspects of the best creations from Brian. My opinion is Brian knew quite well his strengths and limitations, which is why he worked with Mike in the way he did. And the commercial success of the early records gave Brian an outlet for Pet Sounds to happen.

Additionally -- with all due respect, this is where you're a toxic poster man, and quite frankly why this place is the pits to visit these days. "If you believe this, you're brainwashed ..." HA gimme a break

You're baiting people into arguing by making it personal *RIGHT OFF THE BAT*

Sadly, Donny has yet to learn that message boards are dominated by opinions. No, I'm not looking for an argument or trying to make it personal even though you seem bruised by what I posted which was merely a disagreement with part of your post. If you were totally offended or thought I would bother to take the time to insult you or the board in any way, then I will apologize, however I stand by my comments concerning the Lovester which is in no way, shape or form toxic. I don't like the man and I have no regrets about posting that fact.
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« Reply #323 on: February 04, 2019, 09:53:05 AM »

What Rocky hinted about the 1994 songwriting lawsuit  could be far worse than anything Murry Wilson ever did if true....
« Last Edit: February 04, 2019, 11:08:41 AM by SMiLE Brian » Logged

And production aside, I’d so much rather hear a 14 year old David Marks shred some guitar on Chug-a-lug than hear a 51 year old Mike Love sing about bangin some chick in a swimming pool.-rab2591
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« Reply #324 on: February 04, 2019, 12:36:09 PM »

CONTROVERSIAL POST WARNING:

I will give Mike significantly more credit than most on this board for his *creative contribution* to the early '60s hits ... even go out on a limb and say his contributions to some of these hits were near-equal to Brian's from a *commercial* standpoint. I don't think Bruce was wrong in that doc when he said Mike "translated" Brian's tunes into something for the masses.

BUT -- Mike taking "The Beach Boys" on the road year after year, without the actual Beach Boys, does nothing to keep the "group" alive. I can't imagine it being anything but *bad* for their reputation, as noted above. I understand all involved parties benefit financially as a result ... and I'm fairly certain that is the main factor in why the enterprise continues.

-100 on the first paragraph. If that is what you believe then you are falling victim to what Mike has been trying in vain to do by rewriting history and convincing people that Brian relied on him to write the hits. It's hard to believe that anyone could ever fall for Love's ultimate goal in that he's as talented as Brian Wilson. But I do concur with your second paragraph wholeheartedly.

Hence the controversy -- that we can not play politics for once on this board, and give credit where credit is due ... while also calling out the parts that are shitty.

I'm not "falling victim" to anything except my own ears and understanding of the group, their music, and their history. Brian wrote plenty of hits without Mike ... and clearly, some may argue that Brian's artistry would have been better off without him. BUT let's not minimize the commercial value of a round-round-get-around-bom-bom-dip-di-dip ... those are the HOOKS ... let's not overstate the commercial value of the weirder aspects of the best creations from Brian. My opinion is Brian knew quite well his strengths and limitations, which is why he worked with Mike in the way he did. And the commercial success of the early records gave Brian an outlet for Pet Sounds to happen.

Additionally -- with all due respect, this is where you're a toxic poster man, and quite frankly why this place is the pits to visit these days. "If you believe this, you're brainwashed ..." HA gimme a break

You're baiting people into arguing by making it personal *RIGHT OFF THE BAT*

Sadly, Donny has yet to learn that message boards are dominated by opinions. No, I'm not looking for an argument or trying to make it personal even though you seem bruised by what I posted which was merely a disagreement with part of your post. If you were totally offended or thought I would bother to take the time to insult you or the board in any way, then I will apologize, however I stand by my comments concerning the Lovester which is in no way, shape or form toxic. I don't like the man and I have no regrets about posting that fact.

Just for fun, let's break down your "mere disagreement".  

1- -100 on the first paragraph.
Meaning: you turn a "+1" reference in a prior post into "-100".  So, not just "in my opinion you're wrong", but finding a way to immediately put him on his heels.
2- If that is what you believe then you are falling victim to what Mike has been trying in vain to do
Meaning: you are small-minded enough that you are unable to avoid being mentally manipulated by Mike Love's scheming.
3- by rewriting history and convincing people that Brian relied on him to write the hits.
Aside: Even the 2nd most virulent ML hater on this board wouldn't agree with you, that this what the Lovester was ever trying to accomplish.  That's really saying something.
4- It's hard to believe that anyone could ever fall for
Meaning: Only stupid people could fall for this.  ...Oh look, last sentence, I stated that you fell for this.  But hey, I'm just stating an opinion, and not calling you stupid!!   Cool Guy Cool Guy Cool Guy Cool Guy Cool Guy
5- Love's ultimate goal in that he's as talented as Brian Wilson.
Aside: Again, this is so wildly absurd.  But you're not joking?
6- But I do concur with your second paragraph wholeheartedly.
Meaning: Only friendly when you agree with him.

Overall: You weren't outwardly "making it personal" or an argument, but your post was steeped in bullying, as also shown in your reply when you passively say things like "you seem bruised" (Meaning: You are weak) and "or thought I would bother to take the time to insult you" (Meaning: You are worthless).  What you absolutely were doing, is stating the same broken record, obvious opinion that you have tens of thousands of times on various internet sites, semantically phrased like a total jerk and/or liar and/or actual crazy person.  With the background premise that you then retreat behind the internet's general inability to convey the semantics that you often show on here to many people, and hide behind "this is a place for opinions" and the cloud covering that it offers.  The problem is, it's not a place for everything else that you accidentally allow to slip out on a semi-regular basis, yet nobody here has ever really made efforts to stop you.  When people complain, that's what they are really complaining about.  police police police police police
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