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Author Topic: Rocky Pamplin's THE BEACH BOYS' ENDLESS WAVE completed and published  (Read 53111 times)
Reynaldo
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« Reply #250 on: January 11, 2019, 08:59:16 AM »

It’s about the 1994 lawsuit....
Oh lordy, I hope there’s tapes.  Grin

If there are, there's probably as good a chance as hearing them as we'd have of ever hearing the Brian/Carl-produced Manson tapes.

The tape that is discussed in the Pamplin book is the audio recording of the Australian punch-out conference with David Frost. According to the book, Stan Love secretly taped that meeting. No mention of whether or not that recording has survived. 
FYI.

That is not the tape we're thinking of and also not the tape Rocky mentioned here which was potentially explosive.

Ok... I went back and hacked through the RockRush thread for context.  Having read this work, I'll confirm that there's no smoking gun on the songwrtiting credits front.  Based on the nature of the earlier Rush thread, it would have been silly for me, as a reader, to expect anything of that sort in the book.  In my case, that had no bearing on the decision to read the book.  The book is not a pro-Mike book; it is, among other things, a "let's steer clear of Mike" book. What it is, in the end, is an anti-Dennis Wilson book, and perhaps also an anti-Wilson brothers book.  This is because what comes across in the book – per Rocky’s opinions, perhaps influenced by Reynaldo/Ron – is that as of the late 1970s, the Wilson Bros. were, each in his own way, obstructing the continued success of the Beach Boys and therefore had to be dealt with in different ways. 

This probably accounts for why fans object to the book and to Rocky and all that, but it should be obvious (even before this book came out) that Rocky had the implicit backing of the Beach Boys organization to do whatever it was he was doing. 

And - apologies for getting didactic -  but it's worth keeping in mind that the BB story is about a number of different things. Overall, there's (I) Music (art, creativity, expression); (II) Business (how to make money in the rock 'n' roll business; and (III) Family.  So any potential reader ought to know that the RockRush book has nothing whatsoever to do with music.  By the time Rocky enters the picture in the 1970s, there is no more music in the Beach Boys. It is a business, and a family business at that.  Therefore, you get a viewpoint which portrays certain people as "good guys" and certain people as "bad guys". It is basically the flip-reversal of how story of the Beach Boys in the mid-60s  is commonly told. Dyuring the Pet Sounds/Smile era, the artist is the good guy, the hero, while the money guy is the bad guy.  As of the mid and late 1970s, the organization has turned 180 degrees and the roles are reversed. It is now a 100% commerce organization, and the messed-up, chaotic artsy types are getting in the way of what "Beach Boys" had come to represent.  This in my opinion is why some fans object to Reynaldo and Rocky and that whole mentality - because we fans like the Beach Boys because of their music - the art - and have no interest in their later efforts to stay in business.  So the book is yet another reminder - "this is a business"

I will also say that this book is a bit strange in that it appears to be a case in which the co-writer came in not just to shape the grammar and syntax, etc., but actually to impact the substance of what the primary author wanted to say.  Also, based on the previous RockRush thread, it appears that the draft excerpts Rocky posted remain more or less unchanged in the final version.  That is, in the end, it may be that Rocky did more of the writing than might otherwise be assumed, and that Ron/Reynaldo did more of the interpretation of the material than might otherwise be assumed.


There's a lot of water under those bridges.

...and as Bob Dylan sang, "a lot of other stuff too..."

Thoughtful take.

Hi Smile Board,
Sorry I haven't been around to absorb some of the recent insults hurled at me. I'm a dunce, huh? I don't navigate the site well enough to respond to those insulting individuals one by one. Perhaps someone could instruct me as to how to do that. I'm always willing to "grow" from their learned opinions.
Are we having fun yet? Apparantly, that's how people get their kicks on this site. I had expected more but, that's the way of the world these days. I can understand that Rocky, in the past, got in unpleasant exchanges with some members, but where do they get the right to insult me? They don't know me and it's hurtful in one sense and really sad in another. Got nothing better to do, people? I came on this site to talk about the book, answer questions, etc, because it may be of interest to the site. I've been insulted and accused in ridiculous ways myriad times. Is that what this site is about?
The publisher and I found a manuscript about the BB. There was something really interesting in it. It was too harsh and "tabloidish" and mean spirited in the original form, so we turned it into something else, an insightful and interesting book about a band and the music we loved, same as you all, supposedly.
One of your members, Mtabor, (something like that) actually went out of his way to post a harsh and insulting review on Amazon and hasn't even read the Book. Really guys. Wow, hey tabor, get a life.
To the others on the site, thank you for your thoughtful and insightful comments. I learned a lot from many of you - get some better fact checkers for one thing. Ha. I maintain that Rocky got to see this great band from the inside, behind the curtain, if you will,  during a really interesting time in the bands history. 
Read it, don't read it. The world at large will make its judgement about the book, but keep this in mind. My and the publishers intentions come from a good place. Keep that in mind, please.
HNY 2019 to all of youse!


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mtaber
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« Reply #251 on: January 11, 2019, 09:16:49 AM »

Yes, I went on Amazon and posted a comment on the book.  I did not claim to have read the entire book.  I stated that I read one chapter and I added that one chapter was more than enough.  I stated my opinion of that one chapter.  I felt that potential buyers of the book should know my opinion, based on the one chapter that you chose to post on this site.  There were three or four other reviews of your book already on the Amazon site, and those reviews were glowing.  Those reviewers have a right to their opinion, as do I. 
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lance
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« Reply #252 on: January 11, 2019, 09:53:17 AM »

It’s about the 1994 lawsuit....
Oh lordy, I hope there’s tapes.  Grin
Sold. I'll buy your book and read it. But are ther eany plans to make a Kindle edition? I live abroad and would prefer version I could read on my Ebook, but if not I'll order the paperback

If there are, there's probably as good a chance as hearing them as we'd have of ever hearing the Brian/Carl-produced Manson tapes.

The tape that is discussed in the Pamplin book is the audio recording of the Australian punch-out conference with David Frost. According to the book, Stan Love secretly taped that meeting. No mention of whether or not that recording has survived.  
FYI.

That is not the tape we're thinking of and also not the tape Rocky mentioned here which was potentially explosive.

Ok... I went back and hacked through the RockRush thread for context.  Having read this work, I'll confirm that there's no smoking gun on the songwrtiting credits front.  Based on the nature of the earlier Rush thread, it would have been silly for me, as a reader, to expect anything of that sort in the book.  In my case, that had no bearing on the decision to read the book.  The book is not a pro-Mike book; it is, among other things, a "let's steer clear of Mike" book. What it is, in the end, is an anti-Dennis Wilson book, and perhaps also an anti-Wilson brothers book.  This is because what comes across in the book – per Rocky’s opinions, perhaps influenced by Reynaldo/Ron – is that as of the late 1970s, the Wilson Bros. were, each in his own way, obstructing the continued success of the Beach Boys and therefore had to be dealt with in different ways.  

This probably accounts for why fans object to the book and to Rocky and all that, but it should be obvious (even before this book came out) that Rocky had the implicit backing of the Beach Boys organization to do whatever it was he was doing.  

And - apologies for getting didactic -  but it's worth keeping in mind that the BB story is about a number of different things. Overall, there's (I) Music (art, creativity, expression); (II) Business (how to make money in the rock 'n' roll business; and (III) Family.  So any potential reader ought to know that the RockRush book has nothing whatsoever to do with music.  By the time Rocky enters the picture in the 1970s, there is no more music in the Beach Boys. It is a business, and a family business at that.  Therefore, you get a viewpoint which portrays certain people as "good guys" and certain people as "bad guys". It is basically the flip-reversal of how story of the Beach Boys in the mid-60s  is commonly told. Dyuring the Pet Sounds/Smile era, the artist is the good guy, the hero, while the money guy is the bad guy.  As of the mid and late 1970s, the organization has turned 180 degrees and the roles are reversed. It is now a 100% commerce organization, and the messed-up, chaotic artsy types are getting in the way of what "Beach Boys" had come to represent.  This in my opinion is why some fans object to Reynaldo and Rocky and that whole mentality - because we fans like the Beach Boys because of their music - the art - and have no interest in their later efforts to stay in business.  So the book is yet another reminder - "this is a business"

I will also say that this book is a bit strange in that it appears to be a case in which the co-writer came in not just to shape the grammar and syntax, etc., but actually to impact the substance of what the primary author wanted to say.  Also, based on the previous RockRush thread, it appears that the draft excerpts Rocky posted remain more or less unchanged in the final version.  That is, in the end, it may be that Rocky did more of the writing than might otherwise be assumed, and that Ron/Reynaldo did more of the interpretation of the material than might otherwise be assumed.


There's a lot of water under those bridges.

...and as Bob Dylan sang, "a lot of other stuff too..."

Thoughtful take.

Hi Smile Board,
Sorry I haven't been around to absorb some of the recent insults hurled at me. I'm a dunce, huh? I don't navigate the site well enough to respond to those insulting individuals one by one. Perhaps someone could instruct me as to how to do that. I'm always willing to "grow" from their learned opinions.
Are we having fun yet? Apparantly, that's how people get their kicks on this site. I had expected more but, that's the way of the world these days. I can understand that Rocky, in the past, got in unpleasant exchanges with some members, but where do they get the right to insult me? They don't know me and it's hurtful in one sense and really sad in another. Got nothing better to do, people? I came on this site to talk about the book, answer questions, etc, because it may be of interest to the site. I've been insulted and accused in ridiculous ways myriad times. Is that what this site is about?
The publisher and I found a manuscript about the BB. There was something really interesting in it. It was too harsh and "tabloidish" and mean spirited in the original form, so we turned it into something else, an insightful and interesting book about a band and the music we loved, same as you all, supposedly.
One of your members, Mtabor, (something like that) actually went out of his way to post a harsh and insulting review on Amazon and hasn't even read the Book. Really guys. Wow, hey tabor, get a life.
To the others on the site, thank you for your thoughtful and insightful comments. I learned a lot from many of you - get some better fact checkers for one thing. Ha. I maintain that Rocky got to see this great band from the inside, behind the curtain, if you will,  during a really interesting time in the bands history.  
Read it, don't read it. The world at large will make its judgement about the book, but keep this in mind. My and the publishers intentions come from a good place. Keep that in mind, please.
HNY 2019 to all of youse!



Sold. I'll buy your book and read it. But are ther any plans to make a Kindle edition? I live abroad and would prefer a version I could read on my Ebook, but if not I'll order the paperback.

« Last Edit: January 11, 2019, 11:26:43 PM by lance » Logged
rab2591
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« Reply #253 on: January 11, 2019, 12:11:35 PM »

Ron, I really respect that you've come on here consistently to plug/defend this book. And looking over this thread I think you've come out the bigger person on a multitude of occasions when responding to people who have hurled insults at you. I also think it's commendable that you admit:

Quote
To the others on the site, thank you for your thoughtful and insightful comments. I learned a lot from many of you - get some better fact checkers for one thing. Ha. I maintain that Rocky got to see this great band from the inside, behind the curtain, if you will,  during a really interesting time in the bands history. 

It takes a lot of work to write a book, and I can't imagine the time and dedication it takes. Especially 28 chapters of dedication. With that said, I hope I can help you understand why there is so much angst towards you in this thread. Here is a quote from the excerpt you posted earlier in the thread:

Quote
In 1967, Mike’s discomfort with Brian’s new musical direction caused things to get more than a little heated. As portrayed in the film Love and Mercy, they had an ugly scene, and it brought things to a head. Brian had reached his breaking point; his mental and physical reserves were stretched so thin, he was done.

At that point, Brian effectively quit the band and withdrew into a cocoon of drugs and disenchantment. He vowed he would never write songs again for the Beach Boys, and he opted to slip into oblivion. He just couldn’t take it anymore. He checked out. Why, he asked himself, should he continue shouldering the awesome responsibility that comes with writing the songs, doing the arrangements, teaching the others their parts, both vocally and instrumentally, slaving away in the studio, all the while dealing with a changing audience that was seemingly turning on him and his music?

You are asking people to dedicate their money, and more importantly their time, to reading this book. And excerpts you provide go against much of the truth that many posters here have spent a lot of time fighting for in recent years. There are many in the Beach Boys world that have dedicated a lot of time perpetuating rumors that put Brian in a bad light....whether it is pushback from the amount of Mike Love hatred, I don't know. It doesn't help that Mike Love himself used this same type of misinformation in a lawsuit just over a decade ago for an attempt at a quick buck. So, especially in recent years, many posters here have pushed back against this false idea that Brian is a vegetable, Brian is controlled, Brian effectively quit the band after Smile, Brian did nothing but take drugs and lay in bed after 1967, Carl produced Wild Honey, Mike pulled the band together. The amount of rumors goes on and on, and though I don't at all think people need to berate you, I also think that their anger stems from years of seeing these rumors go unchecked. So when you show up and the chapter you provide has at least one of these rumors, it isn't outside the realm of possibility that people here would get irritated about it.

I also invite you to read Rocky's post history on this forum:
http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php?action=profile;u=9448;sa=showPosts

Between those posts and what we have seen of the book in its current form regarding Stan, Rocky, Mike, etc, it also leaves a lot of questions relating to why there was an almost 180º turnaround in several opinions about certain people - and yeah, you can say that the publisher, you, and Rocky agreed that the book should be more about the love of the Beach Boys (leaving the tabloid stuff out), yet according to those who have read the book there is still some unflattering perspectives regarding some members (Carl and Dennis) while Mike seems to go unscathed. And in your defense you say that this is due to the time period the book is about. Yet the above quote from the book shows an unflattering and untrue look at Brian Wilson mid-60s and beyond which follows the same tabloid style you claim you were trying to avoid. And I will admit, those rumors were so pervasive that many people believed them without question, so I'm not saying it was intentional on your part. But even unintentional it doesn't make the false perspective correct. You and Rocky may not have even seen this sentence "In 1967...Brian effectively quit the band and withdrew into a cocoon of drugs and disenchantment" as unflattering and untrue, but it is untrue and thus unflattering to Brian. And I think you're asking a lot of people here to buy/support this book when it carries on this myth...again, a myth that Mike Love tried to use as leverage in a lawsuit against Brian not that long ago.

So from many angles (be it Rocky's posts from years back, the 180º turnaround the book takes from some of those posts - and the possible confusion that that makes for us potential readers, the misrepresented look at Brian's late-60s life) this book and anyone defending it was bound (no pun intended) to get some flak.

And while you may not appreciate mtaber's amazon review, he's been one of the few people trying to keep insults being hurled at you in this thread:

I don't see any point in being nasty to Ron.  He wrote a book with Rocky, they got it published, and we (as a group) generally are in agreement that we don't think it's a very good book, from what we've read. I respect Ron's right to write a book, he should respect our right to have a negative view of the book.  

I hope most of the above post helps you understand the backlash you have been enduring. Again, respect to you for coming here and dealing with the backlash in the manner you have. Thanks for being open to at least some of the responses that have civilly pointed out some mistakes in the book.

Happy 2019 to you too!
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The Beach Boys legacy is still being mortared to this day...it has a solid and unbreakable foundation of incredible songs that tower above most bands, yet some bricks are more brittle and ugly than others (even some bricks put down more recently)...thus is the nature of any entity that continues to exist. You are not defined solely by your good achievements in life, you're also defined by those unpleasant moments too. This law of life, thankfully, helps keep us all in check.
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« Reply #254 on: January 11, 2019, 06:37:18 PM »

Thanks, RAB.  I appreciate your remarks. 
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« Reply #255 on: January 12, 2019, 09:14:51 AM »

Excellent post, rab. Many of us pushing back at Ron were doing so precisely because the "tabloid-y" stuff that was apparently in Rocky's original draft was represented by Rocky (and, indirectly, by Steve Love) as providing additional details into the "darker side" of Mike's litigation history. Its absence is not only disappointing, but somewhat suspicious. Clarification from Mike's brothers would go a long way toward explaining the motivation for its apparent removal (which Ron tacitly/indirectly admits in his explanation of how he came to be involved in the book project).

Now it could be that some are frustrated by the type of stonewalling (no pun intended) that the country is currently experiencing with certain folk that Mike seems to be a bit too cozy with, and when they see something else that has the appearance of a whitewash they see red--that could explain the tone of those remarks. But it's also true that the issue raised about the "missing" material has been sidestepped in Ron's responses, in favor of pushing back at those who would probe into those sensitive areas as being unnecessarily mean-spirited.

Brother Ron, you need to take a look at the history of this board and the posts still fully documented and available here to see that what you think is unduly negative and malicious is probably registering at about the fortieth percentile of what this board has been capable of in its "prime."  3D

I enjoyed and encouraged Rocky upon occasion during his time here, in part because there was the hope that playing to his sense of theatre might cause him to exercise less caution and reveal more about the areas related to Mike that he'd been teasing us with. But I would have to agree with what I think is a sizable majority of posters here that it's inconceivable to me that Rocky wasn't fired and sent home immediately after clocking Carl Wilson. Let's put it this way: I'd buy Rocky a beer ahd have a chat, but I'd keep a seat (or two) between us at the bar...
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« Reply #256 on: January 12, 2019, 01:27:40 PM »

2rab2591 & co: Why exactly you reply with defense towards the OP? There's CLEARLY zero "recent insults" (keyword "recent") since the OP's last visit here. As you see, the last 20-25 posts here is the OP engaging in dialog with various posters. What the OP even talks about? You know full well there isn't any "recent insult". The OP baited you. Nobody had new questions posed to the OP since his last visit, the thread been quiet, thus to bring attention to it, he went to talk about "recently" being insulted, when actually he brought up ancient past year stuff he replied to *already*, *done & finished*. It's like this - must do sth. to bring thread back in action. How? By playing victim, so you, people, will defend him. It's amazing that, despite knowing there weren't any insults *recently*, you still replied, when instead you could point out precisely that.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2019, 02:22:48 PM by RangeRoverA1 » Logged

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« Reply #257 on: January 12, 2019, 03:58:18 PM »

2rab2591 & co: Why exactly you reply with defense towards the OP? There's CLEARLY zero "recent insults" (keyword "recent") since the OP's last visit here. As you see, the last 20-25 posts here is the OP engaging in dialog with various posters. What the OP even talks about? You know full well there isn't any "recent insult". The OP baited you. Nobody had new questions posed to the OP since his last visit, the thread been quiet, thus to bring attention to it, he went to talk about "recently" being insulted, when actually he brought up ancient past year stuff he replied to *already*, *done & finished*. It's like this - must do sth. to bring thread back in action. How? By playing victim, so you, people, will defend him. It's amazing that, despite knowing there weren't any insults *recently*, you still replied, when instead you could point out precisely that.

I'm pretty certain I had read an insult directed at him from another thread elsewhere days ago...which is what he could have been referring to. Anyways, this is a message board and I just wanted to give my two cents. If it was Ron's intent to bring attention to this thread, then perhaps I did play into his hand, but then by responding to my post publicly (instead of PMing me about the issue) you have played into his hand too by giving this thread even more public attention and clicks down the line. But again, this is a message board and we're free to give our opinions and insights into anything that is posted. You are completely free to critique my posts, and I am completely free to respond to Ron. It's just the way it goes on message boards.

Happy 2019, RangeRover Smiley
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The Beach Boys legacy is still being mortared to this day...it has a solid and unbreakable foundation of incredible songs that tower above most bands, yet some bricks are more brittle and ugly than others (even some bricks put down more recently)...thus is the nature of any entity that continues to exist. You are not defined solely by your good achievements in life, you're also defined by those unpleasant moments too. This law of life, thankfully, helps keep us all in check.
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« Reply #258 on: January 13, 2019, 10:49:03 AM »

Ron, I really respect that you've come on here consistently to plug/defend this book. And looking over this thread I think you've come out the bigger person on a multitude of occasions when responding to people who have hurled insults at you. I also think it's commendable that you admit:

Quote
To the others on the site, thank you for your thoughtful and insightful comments. I learned a lot from many of you - get some better fact checkers for one thing. Ha. I maintain that Rocky got to see this great band from the inside, behind the curtain, if you will,  during a really interesting time in the bands history. 

It takes a lot of work to write a book, and I can't imagine the time and dedication it takes. Especially 28 chapters of dedication. With that said, I hope I can help you understand why there is so much angst towards you in this thread. Here is a quote from the excerpt you posted earlier in the thread:

Quote
In 1967, Mike’s discomfort with Brian’s new musical direction caused things to get more than a little heated. As portrayed in the film Love and Mercy, they had an ugly scene, and it brought things to a head. Brian had reached his breaking point; his mental and physical reserves were stretched so thin, he was done.

At that point, Brian effectively quit the band and withdrew into a cocoon of drugs and disenchantment. He vowed he would never write songs again for the Beach Boys, and he opted to slip into oblivion. He just couldn’t take it anymore. He checked out. Why, he asked himself, should he continue shouldering the awesome responsibility that comes with writing the songs, doing the arrangements, teaching the others their parts, both vocally and instrumentally, slaving away in the studio, all the while dealing with a changing audience that was seemingly turning on him and his music?

You are asking people to dedicate their money, and more importantly their time, to reading this book. And excerpts you provide go against much of the truth that many posters here have spent a lot of time fighting for in recent years. There are many in the Beach Boys world that have dedicated a lot of time perpetuating rumors that put Brian in a bad light....whether it is pushback from the amount of Mike Love hatred, I don't know. It doesn't help that Mike Love himself used this same type of misinformation in a lawsuit just over a decade ago for an attempt at a quick buck. So, especially in recent years, many posters here have pushed back against this false idea that Brian is a vegetable, Brian is controlled, Brian effectively quit the band after Smile, Brian did nothing but take drugs and lay in bed after 1967, Carl produced Wild Honey, Mike pulled the band together. The amount of rumors goes on and on, and though I don't at all think people need to berate you, I also think that their anger stems from years of seeing these rumors go unchecked. So when you show up and the chapter you provide has at least one of these rumors, it isn't outside the realm of possibility that people here would get irritated about it.

I also invite you to read Rocky's post history on this forum:
http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php?action=profile;u=9448;sa=showPosts

Between those posts and what we have seen of the book in its current form regarding Stan, Rocky, Mike, etc, it also leaves a lot of questions relating to why there was an almost 180º turnaround in several opinions about certain people - and yeah, you can say that the publisher, you, and Rocky agreed that the book should be more about the love of the Beach Boys (leaving the tabloid stuff out), yet according to those who have read the book there is still some unflattering perspectives regarding some members (Carl and Dennis) while Mike seems to go unscathed. And in your defense you say that this is due to the time period the book is about. Yet the above quote from the book shows an unflattering and untrue look at Brian Wilson mid-60s and beyond which follows the same tabloid style you claim you were trying to avoid. And I will admit, those rumors were so pervasive that many people believed them without question, so I'm not saying it was intentional on your part. But even unintentional it doesn't make the false perspective correct. You and Rocky may not have even seen this sentence "In 1967...Brian effectively quit the band and withdrew into a cocoon of drugs and disenchantment" as unflattering and untrue, but it is untrue and thus unflattering to Brian. And I think you're asking a lot of people here to buy/support this book when it carries on this myth...again, a myth that Mike Love tried to use as leverage in a lawsuit against Brian not that long ago.

So from many angles (be it Rocky's posts from years back, the 180º turnaround the book takes from some of those posts - and the possible confusion that that makes for us potential readers, the misrepresented look at Brian's late-60s life) this book and anyone defending it was bound (no pun intended) to get some flak.

And while you may not appreciate mtaber's amazon review, he's been one of the few people trying to keep insults being hurled at you in this thread:

I don't see any point in being nasty to Ron.  He wrote a book with Rocky, they got it published, and we (as a group) generally are in agreement that we don't think it's a very good book, from what we've read. I respect Ron's right to write a book, he should respect our right to have a negative view of the book.  

I hope most of the above post helps you understand the backlash you have been enduring. Again, respect to you for coming here and dealing with the backlash in the manner you have. Thanks for being open to at least some of the responses that have civilly pointed out some mistakes in the book.

Happy 2019 to you too!


A lot of this post sums up my feelings as well. Anything further I'd just be repeating myself, even though a few key points got lost when another forum folded.

I just want to say, speaking for myself, I hope Ron continues to post here and dialogue with those who want to talk. I'm not a fan of the personal insults, but I like to hear what someone has to say up to or until it crosses any lines. That brings me to my next point:

Ron, when you were writing the book with Rocky, did you read through Rocky's posts and comments made on this board in 2015-16?

I have the feeling that perhaps Ron did not know the minefield he would be walking through when he signed on, and not even with Rocky's previous experiences interacting with people here or the perception of him, but with the Beach Boys universe in general. And, specifically, how an atmosphere exists and was substantially ramped up after Fall 2012 to where certain inconvenient facts and details are either whitewashed, reshaped, or dismissed entirely, and some people who have more details to make these points even more inconvenient are targeted and attacked in the hopes they are discredited or their words dismissed outright, no matter if they're factual or not.

Witness everything that went down when Rocky first appeared, things that happened with Steve Love's comments too, and what has happened with these recent discussions that involve Rocky.

In Ron's defense, I wonder if he had any idea of the tangled web of whitewashing, distorting, and dishonest historians that bubbles under the BB's fan universe.
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« Reply #259 on: January 13, 2019, 10:52:58 AM »

Quote
Sold. I'll buy your book and read it. But are ther any plans to make a Kindle edition? I live abroad and would prefer a version I could read on my Ebook, but if not I'll order the paperback.
This. I'm really intrigued by this book, warts and all, and I'd buy it on Kindle in a heartbeat. Living as I do in Australia though, I can't justify to myself the expense imposed by international shipping and our weak dollar.
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« Reply #260 on: January 13, 2019, 11:52:07 AM »

In Ron's defense, I wonder if he had any idea of the tangled web of whitewashing, distorting, and dishonest historians that bubbles under the BB's fan universe.

I would love to know that too. This is why I'm trying to be more sympathetic to Ron here, because this Beach Boys world is a minefield of idiot politics, petty disagreements that have led to some incidents (and I'm not just talking about forum nonsense), and mis/disinformation. Writing a book about any aspect of this band is bound to be impacted by some of this stuff.

Quote
Sold. I'll buy your book and read it. But are ther any plans to make a Kindle edition? I live abroad and would prefer a version I could read on my Ebook, but if not I'll order the paperback.
This. I'm really intrigued by this book, warts and all, and I'd buy it on Kindle in a heartbeat. Living as I do in Australia though, I can't justify to myself the expense imposed by international shipping and our weak dollar.

Ron, with all this in mind, if you end up selling the e-book for Kindle, will there be some revisions made regarding even a few of the mistakes people have brought up in this thread?
« Last Edit: January 13, 2019, 11:54:34 AM by rab2591 » Logged

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The Beach Boys legacy is still being mortared to this day...it has a solid and unbreakable foundation of incredible songs that tower above most bands, yet some bricks are more brittle and ugly than others (even some bricks put down more recently)...thus is the nature of any entity that continues to exist. You are not defined solely by your good achievements in life, you're also defined by those unpleasant moments too. This law of life, thankfully, helps keep us all in check.
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« Reply #261 on: January 13, 2019, 12:25:07 PM »

In Ron's defense, I wonder if he had any idea of the tangled web of whitewashing, distorting, and dishonest historians that bubbles under the BB's fan universe.

I would love to know that too. This is why I'm trying to be more sympathetic to Ron here, because this Beach Boys world is a minefield of idiot politics, petty disagreements that have led to some incidents (and I'm not just talking about forum nonsense), and mis/disinformation. Writing a book about any aspect of this band is bound to be impacted by some of this stuff.


Me too. And I'm curious to hear if Ron chooses to reply just how much of this he was aware of going into this project. When you have people (call them historians, experts, fact-checkers, gadflies, whatever...)  sitting in a self-made ivory tower declaring who or what is "toxic" and determining what information is worthy of consumption by the masses of fans, it's more than a minefield, it's a clusterf*ck. When you have the politics of all this leading to distorting and lying about *message board discussions* about a book, never mind the book itself, you know it's a situation that can best be described as F.U.B.A.R. Or, maybe there is some legit concern and worry about what kind of information still exists that didn't make it to this book.

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« Reply #262 on: January 14, 2019, 01:30:43 PM »

In Ron's defense, I wonder if he had any idea of the tangled web of whitewashing, distorting, and dishonest historians that bubbles under the BB's fan universe.

I would love to know that too. This is why I'm trying to be more sympathetic to Ron here, because this Beach Boys world is a minefield of idiot politics, petty disagreements that have led to some incidents (and I'm not just talking about forum nonsense), and mis/disinformation. Writing a book about any aspect of this band is bound to be impacted by some of this stuff.


Me too. And I'm curious to hear if Ron chooses to reply just how much of this he was aware of going into this project. When you have people (call them historians, experts, fact-checkers, gadflies, whatever...)  sitting in a self-made ivory tower declaring who or what is "toxic" and determining what information is worthy of consumption by the masses of fans, it's more than a minefield, it's a clusterf*ck. When you have the politics of all this leading to distorting and lying about *message board discussions* about a book, never mind the book itself, you know it's a situation that can best be described as F.U.B.A.R. Or, maybe there is some legit concern and worry about what kind of information still exists that didn't make it to this book.



Waal, truth be told - I was a bit naive when I got involved and did my best to skirt the minefields and intrigue that surrounds this fabulous band. We, meaning the publisher and I, and eventually Rocky, wanted to create a fun and entertaining product. Rocky's original manuscript was that and a whole lot more. What we focused on and what interested me was the interplay between band and management, mixed in with family, sibling rivalry, stardom and backstage personalities. Did I know all the things listed in this very insightful quote above? The simple answer is nope. Many of the details, were, in my mind, not nearly as entertaining as the behind the scenes peek a the interplay between the Loves and the Wilsons, band and management, the exigencies of the music industry, with sex, drugs, and rock and roll thrown in. The aficionados of the Beach Boys will always know more than me. But Rocky was there, behind the curtain and trust me, nobody was in in anybody's pocket during his wild ride inside the BB's world. Were we sensitive to the enormously powerful personalities involved that we were writing about? You betcha. It's one thing to blog. It's quite another to distribute a commercial product like a book on the world stage.
I've said it before, I came away with enormous respect for everyone involved.
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« Reply #263 on: January 14, 2019, 01:43:14 PM »

Yes, I went on Amazon and posted a comment on the book.  I did not claim to have read the entire book.  I stated that I read one chapter and I added that one chapter was more than enough.  I stated my opinion of that one chapter.  I felt that potential buyers of the book should know my opinion, based on the one chapter that you chose to post on this site.  There were three or four other reviews of your book already on the Amazon site, and those reviews were glowing.  Those reviewers have a right to their opinion, as do I. 

You did not read the book. Your review on the site where the book is for sale is a cheap and petty shot at something you have no knowledge of. Why you would go out of your way to bash the book and RATE THE BOOK without reading?  You owe me and everyone that absorbs your ignorant "star" rating of the book an apology.
YOU RATED THE WHOLE BOOK WITHOUT READING IT. IT AFFECTED THE RATING OF THE BOOK. Even if only momentarily it is a disgusting petty act on your part.
YOU HAVEN'T READ IT AND YET YOU RATED THE WHOLE BOOK. GAVE IT A 1 STAR RATING. TAKE IT DOWN.

IT'S A LIE.





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« Reply #264 on: January 14, 2019, 01:51:49 PM »

Ron, I really respect that you've come on here consistently to plug/defend this book. And looking over this thread I think you've come out the bigger person on a multitude of occasions when responding to people who have hurled insults at you. I also think it's commendable that you admit:

Quote
To the others on the site, thank you for your thoughtful and insightful comments. I learned a lot from many of you - get some better fact checkers for one thing. Ha. I maintain that Rocky got to see this great band from the inside, behind the curtain, if you will,  during a really interesting time in the bands history. 

It takes a lot of work to write a book, and I can't imagine the time and dedication it takes. Especially 28 chapters of dedication. With that said, I hope I can help you understand why there is so much angst towards you in this thread. Here is a quote from the excerpt you posted earlier in the thread:

Quote
In 1967, Mike’s discomfort with Brian’s new musical direction caused things to get more than a little heated. As portrayed in the film Love and Mercy, they had an ugly scene, and it brought things to a head. Brian had reached his breaking point; his mental and physical reserves were stretched so thin, he was done.

At that point, Brian effectively quit the band and withdrew into a cocoon of drugs and disenchantment. He vowed he would never write songs again for the Beach Boys, and he opted to slip into oblivion. He just couldn’t take it anymore. He checked out. Why, he asked himself, should he continue shouldering the awesome responsibility that comes with writing the songs, doing the arrangements, teaching the others their parts, both vocally and instrumentally, slaving away in the studio, all the while dealing with a changing audience that was seemingly turning on him and his music?

You are asking people to dedicate their money, and more importantly their time, to reading this book. And excerpts you provide go against much of the truth that many posters here have spent a lot of time fighting for in recent years. There are many in the Beach Boys world that have dedicated a lot of time perpetuating rumors that put Brian in a bad light....whether it is pushback from the amount of Mike Love hatred, I don't know. It doesn't help that Mike Love himself used this same type of misinformation in a lawsuit just over a decade ago for an attempt at a quick buck. So, especially in recent years, many posters here have pushed back against this false idea that Brian is a vegetable, Brian is controlled, Brian effectively quit the band after Smile, Brian did nothing but take drugs and lay in bed after 1967, Carl produced Wild Honey, Mike pulled the band together. The amount of rumors goes on and on, and though I don't at all think people need to berate you, I also think that their anger stems from years of seeing these rumors go unchecked. So when you show up and the chapter you provide has at least one of these rumors, it isn't outside the realm of possibility that people here would get irritated about it.

I also invite you to read Rocky's post history on this forum:
http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php?action=profile;u=9448;sa=showPosts

Between those posts and what we have seen of the book in its current form regarding Stan, Rocky, Mike, etc, it also leaves a lot of questions relating to why there was an almost 180º turnaround in several opinions about certain people - and yeah, you can say that the publisher, you, and Rocky agreed that the book should be more about the love of the Beach Boys (leaving the tabloid stuff out), yet according to those who have read the book there is still some unflattering perspectives regarding some members (Carl and Dennis) while Mike seems to go unscathed. And in your defense you say that this is due to the time period the book is about. Yet the above quote from the book shows an unflattering and untrue look at Brian Wilson mid-60s and beyond which follows the same tabloid style you claim you were trying to avoid. And I will admit, those rumors were so pervasive that many people believed them without question, so I'm not saying it was intentional on your part. But even unintentional it doesn't make the false perspective correct. You and Rocky may not have even seen this sentence "In 1967...Brian effectively quit the band and withdrew into a cocoon of drugs and disenchantment" as unflattering and untrue, but it is untrue and thus unflattering to Brian. And I think you're asking a lot of people here to buy/support this book when it carries on this myth...again, a myth that Mike Love tried to use as leverage in a lawsuit against Brian not that long ago.

So from many angles (be it Rocky's posts from years back, the 180º turnaround the book takes from some of those posts - and the possible confusion that that makes for us potential readers, the misrepresented look at Brian's late-60s life) this book and anyone defending it was bound (no pun intended) to get some flak.

And while you may not appreciate mtaber's amazon review, he's been one of the few people trying to keep insults being hurled at you in this thread:

I don't see any point in being nasty to Ron.  He wrote a book with Rocky, they got it published, and we (as a group) generally are in agreement that we don't think it's a very good book, from what we've read. I respect Ron's right to write a book, he should respect our right to have a negative view of the book.  

I hope most of the above post helps you understand the backlash you have been enduring. Again, respect to you for coming here and dealing with the backlash in the manner you have. Thanks for being open to at least some of the responses that have civilly pointed out some mistakes in the book.

Happy 2019 to you too!

I respectfully agree with you except for tabor. I posted a reply to him. I don't need his protection on this site. I am repulsed at his behavior on the Amazon. He rated the book. HE HAS NOT READ THE BOOK. It hurt and he had no right to put that on Amazon. It was petty. Period.
Have you read the book? I'm not quite sure if you have or are simply reacting to others who have so I don't quite know how to address your other comments correctly.
Please let me know. Thanks.
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« Reply #265 on: January 14, 2019, 01:59:41 PM »

Excellent post, rab. Many of us pushing back at Ron were doing so precisely because the "tabloid-y" stuff that was apparently in Rocky's original draft was represented by Rocky (and, indirectly, by Steve Love) as providing additional details into the "darker side" of Mike's litigation history. Its absence is not only disappointing, but somewhat suspicious. Clarification from Mike's brothers would go a long way toward explaining the motivation for its apparent removal (which Ron tacitly/indirectly admits in his explanation of how he came to be involved in the book project).

Now it could be that some are frustrated by the type of stonewalling (no pun intended) that the country is currently experiencing with certain folk that Mike seems to be a bit too cozy with, and when they see something else that has the appearance of a whitewash they see red--that could explain the tone of those remarks. But it's also true that the issue raised about the "missing" material has been sidestepped in Ron's responses, in favor of pushing back at those who would probe into those sensitive areas as being unnecessarily mean-spirited.

Brother Ron, you need to take a look at the history of this board and the posts still fully documented and available here to see that what you think is unduly negative and malicious is probably registering at about the fortieth percentile of what this board has been capable of in its "prime."  3D



I enjoyed and encouraged Rocky upon occasion during his time here, in part because there was the hope that playing to his sense of theatre might cause him to exercise less caution and reveal more about the areas related to Mike that he'd been teasing us with. But I would have to agree with what I think is a sizable majority of posters here that it's inconceivable to me that Rocky wasn't fired and sent home immediately after clocking Carl Wilson. Let's put it this way: I'd buy Rocky a beer ahd have a chat, but I'd keep a seat (or two) between us at the bar...

I did a lot of work explain exactly why Rocky was not fired after belting Carl. It's in the book. It's the most insightful and revealing information in there in my opinion. It affected Steve Love's relationship with the band from that resounding crack on Carl's jaw to the end of Steve's career with the Band.

Rocky and Stan were dedicated to keeping drugs away from Brian. They were not guys to be trifled with. Steve Love was loyal to a fault to those guys and that dedication
READ THE BOOK. What happened after that incident and why is fascinating.
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« Reply #266 on: January 14, 2019, 02:04:16 PM »

Regarding reviews, while professional reviews publishers by reviewers/journalists should absolutely be held to a certain standard, I don't think customer reviews on websites like Amazon should have such requirements (and whether they do or not, people reading them should and hopefully usually do understand the reliability of such reviews; e.g. you can only give so much weight to random customer reviews).

But a review of a book that is basically the equivalent of a movie review that states "I watched it for 25 minutes and couldn't take it anymore and walked out", while weighed accordingly (I certainly don't make my buying decisions based on Amazon reviews, or even Yelp reviews particularly, or YouTube comments, etc.), shouldn't be disallowed on these sites. The Pamplin review in question even, arguably, admits only one chapter was read. How would we ever know who has seen or heard any product, or actually even owned the product in question? That's why Amazon has "Verified Purchase" designations, to at least prove a user owns or owned the product in question (and even then we don't know they watched/listened/tried it).

All attacking a review is going to accomplish is to make sure the next bad review goes out of its way to claim (whether true or not) that the reviewer has read the entire book.

To be clear, *I'm* not into reviewing stuff I can't appropriately judge. But I've seen even professional reviews where the reviewer admits they coudln't take anymore and gave up. As long as they disclose that, I'm fine with it and weight it as such (meaning usually not too much).

I'm guessing a fair amount of movie reviewers may not have reached the end of viewing "The Human Centipede."
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« Reply #267 on: January 14, 2019, 04:31:03 PM »

Ron, I certainly am not about to apologize for my review on Amazon.  There is nothing deceitful or dishonest about what I wrote.  I did not claim to have read the entire book.  I did not claim to have purchased the book.  I said "one chapter" was all it took, and that's the truth.  How you see this as a LIE is beyond me.  I'm guessing that, if I had posted a review stating "I've only read one chapter, but this is a great book from what I've read thus far and I hope everyone buys it!", you'd have no complaints.  Perhaps you should have posted a better (at least somewhat accurate) chapter on this site.
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« Reply #268 on: January 14, 2019, 04:43:41 PM »

I did just go on Amazon and edited my review to make it more clear that I have only read one chapter. 
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« Reply #269 on: January 14, 2019, 05:18:01 PM »

See? At this point, why even care if you don't get equally polite replies as yours? *facepalm*
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« Reply #270 on: January 15, 2019, 05:05:51 AM »

Ron, I really respect that you've come on here consistently to plug/defend this book. And looking over this thread I think you've come out the bigger person on a multitude of occasions when responding to people who have hurled insults at you. I also think it's commendable that you admit:

Quote
To the others on the site, thank you for your thoughtful and insightful comments. I learned a lot from many of you - get some better fact checkers for one thing. Ha. I maintain that Rocky got to see this great band from the inside, behind the curtain, if you will,  during a really interesting time in the bands history. 

It takes a lot of work to write a book, and I can't imagine the time and dedication it takes. Especially 28 chapters of dedication. With that said, I hope I can help you understand why there is so much angst towards you in this thread. Here is a quote from the excerpt you posted earlier in the thread:

Quote
In 1967, Mike’s discomfort with Brian’s new musical direction caused things to get more than a little heated. As portrayed in the film Love and Mercy, they had an ugly scene, and it brought things to a head. Brian had reached his breaking point; his mental and physical reserves were stretched so thin, he was done.

At that point, Brian effectively quit the band and withdrew into a cocoon of drugs and disenchantment. He vowed he would never write songs again for the Beach Boys, and he opted to slip into oblivion. He just couldn’t take it anymore. He checked out. Why, he asked himself, should he continue shouldering the awesome responsibility that comes with writing the songs, doing the arrangements, teaching the others their parts, both vocally and instrumentally, slaving away in the studio, all the while dealing with a changing audience that was seemingly turning on him and his music?

You are asking people to dedicate their money, and more importantly their time, to reading this book. And excerpts you provide go against much of the truth that many posters here have spent a lot of time fighting for in recent years. There are many in the Beach Boys world that have dedicated a lot of time perpetuating rumors that put Brian in a bad light....whether it is pushback from the amount of Mike Love hatred, I don't know. It doesn't help that Mike Love himself used this same type of misinformation in a lawsuit just over a decade ago for an attempt at a quick buck. So, especially in recent years, many posters here have pushed back against this false idea that Brian is a vegetable, Brian is controlled, Brian effectively quit the band after Smile, Brian did nothing but take drugs and lay in bed after 1967, Carl produced Wild Honey, Mike pulled the band together. The amount of rumors goes on and on, and though I don't at all think people need to berate you, I also think that their anger stems from years of seeing these rumors go unchecked. So when you show up and the chapter you provide has at least one of these rumors, it isn't outside the realm of possibility that people here would get irritated about it.

I also invite you to read Rocky's post history on this forum:
http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php?action=profile;u=9448;sa=showPosts

Between those posts and what we have seen of the book in its current form regarding Stan, Rocky, Mike, etc, it also leaves a lot of questions relating to why there was an almost 180º turnaround in several opinions about certain people - and yeah, you can say that the publisher, you, and Rocky agreed that the book should be more about the love of the Beach Boys (leaving the tabloid stuff out), yet according to those who have read the book there is still some unflattering perspectives regarding some members (Carl and Dennis) while Mike seems to go unscathed. And in your defense you say that this is due to the time period the book is about. Yet the above quote from the book shows an unflattering and untrue look at Brian Wilson mid-60s and beyond which follows the same tabloid style you claim you were trying to avoid. And I will admit, those rumors were so pervasive that many people believed them without question, so I'm not saying it was intentional on your part. But even unintentional it doesn't make the false perspective correct. You and Rocky may not have even seen this sentence "In 1967...Brian effectively quit the band and withdrew into a cocoon of drugs and disenchantment" as unflattering and untrue, but it is untrue and thus unflattering to Brian. And I think you're asking a lot of people here to buy/support this book when it carries on this myth...again, a myth that Mike Love tried to use as leverage in a lawsuit against Brian not that long ago.

So from many angles (be it Rocky's posts from years back, the 180º turnaround the book takes from some of those posts - and the possible confusion that that makes for us potential readers, the misrepresented look at Brian's late-60s life) this book and anyone defending it was bound (no pun intended) to get some flak.

And while you may not appreciate mtaber's amazon review, he's been one of the few people trying to keep insults being hurled at you in this thread:

I don't see any point in being nasty to Ron.  He wrote a book with Rocky, they got it published, and we (as a group) generally are in agreement that we don't think it's a very good book, from what we've read. I respect Ron's right to write a book, he should respect our right to have a negative view of the book.  

I hope most of the above post helps you understand the backlash you have been enduring. Again, respect to you for coming here and dealing with the backlash in the manner you have. Thanks for being open to at least some of the responses that have civilly pointed out some mistakes in the book.

Happy 2019 to you too!

I respectfully agree with you except for tabor. I posted a reply to him. I don't need his protection on this site. I am repulsed at his behavior on the Amazon. He rated the book. HE HAS NOT READ THE BOOK. It hurt and he had no right to put that on Amazon. It was petty. Period.
Have you read the book? I'm not quite sure if you have or are simply reacting to others who have so I don't quite know how to address your other comments correctly.
Please let me know. Thanks.

I have not read the book. Tbh I’m hesitant dropping $21 plus shipping on a book that I have seen a couple inaccuracies in by reading only the introduction and the chapter you uploaded. I can look past some inaccuracies (there are some in probably every Beach Boys book published), but I can’t justify spending $25+ on it.

Perhaps you could respond to the questions made regarding a possible e-book release of this book? I think an e-book release would make this book a bit more affordable to potential readers
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The Beach Boys legacy is still being mortared to this day...it has a solid and unbreakable foundation of incredible songs that tower above most bands, yet some bricks are more brittle and ugly than others (even some bricks put down more recently)...thus is the nature of any entity that continues to exist. You are not defined solely by your good achievements in life, you're also defined by those unpleasant moments too. This law of life, thankfully, helps keep us all in check.
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« Reply #271 on: January 15, 2019, 07:30:04 AM »

Well said rab, mtaber, and RR!
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« Reply #272 on: January 15, 2019, 08:37:27 AM »

It's bad craic reviewing a book 1 star when you haven't even read the thing... regardless if you read 1 chapter or not
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« Reply #273 on: January 15, 2019, 09:43:43 AM »

I did just go on Amazon and edited my review to make it more clear that I have only read one chapter. 

You don't get it. Your review and negative response and star rating affects the WHOLE BOOK'S rating even though you have not read it. You rated the entire book with your ignorant response. You didn't rate 1 chapter ONLY. It doesn't work that way. You damaged the whole book and you've never bought it, seen it or read it.
You have no business saying anything on there. Take it down or you will remain a punk in my eyes and taint the reputation of this site.
If I had known someone like you was on here I'd have never asked the publisher for permission to post a chapter on here. It was a curtesy. You hurt my reputation with the publisher. And I'm being polite here.

Please note "ignorant" is curable. Stupid is forever.
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« Reply #274 on: January 15, 2019, 09:46:19 AM »

Yes, I went on Amazon and posted a comment on the book.  I did not claim to have read the entire book.  I stated that I read one chapter and I added that one chapter was more than enough.  I stated my opinion of that one chapter.  I felt that potential buyers of the book should know my opinion, based on the one chapter that you chose to post on this site.  There were three or four other reviews of your book already on the Amazon site, and those reviews were glowing.  Those reviewers have a right to their opinion, as do I. 
This is posted twice:

You don't get it. Your review and negative response and star rating affects the WHOLE BOOK'S rating even though you have not read it. You rated the entire book with your ignorant response. You didn't rate 1 chapter ONLY. It doesn't work that way. You damaged the whole book and you've never bought it, seen it or read it.
You have no business saying anything on there. Take it down or you will remain a punk in my eyes and taint the reputation of this site.
If I had known someone like you was on here I'd have never asked the publisher for permission to post a chapter on here. It was a curtesy. You hurt my reputation with the publisher. And I'm being polite here.

Please note "ignorant" is curable. Stupid is forever.
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