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Author Topic: Recent thoughts on Jack Rieley by the Beach Boys?  (Read 6123 times)
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« Reply #100 on: September 15, 2018, 02:42:27 PM »

Amen to that!
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« Reply #101 on: September 15, 2018, 11:28:16 PM »

I would also like to add that Guitarfool and I first exchanged a series (over 20) of PMs about six years ago and I found him then to be an incredibly nice guy who was an absolute pleasure "converse" with via email. He's obviously a very bright person who is meticulous in his research. The other points I made earlier were an attempt at constructive criticism concerning over-arguing one's point of view, etc. (Not that I'm not doing that now, right? Smiley)

Recently I was quite surprised when I heard from an individual who told me he had met Mr. OSD at a concert and said he came across as a very nice guy, stating that the real life OSD seemed to be nothing like the toxic poster OSD, and that people would have a higher opinion of the guy if he behaved online as he does in person. And yeah, I know OSD has his admirers here, and is given slack by some because he's in the anti-Mike camp, to put it mildly. Personally I don't wish to be in the anti-camp of any of the band members. I've certainly got my faults and various members of the band have theirs, some more than others, but for me the bottom line is that while the BBs were often a dysfunctional group I'm thankful for the wonderful music they have given us, especially Summer of Love and Smart Girls ... oops, sorry, lost my head!

And speaking of going on and on ... enough of anyone suffering thru reading yet another post of mine on this subject, let's get back to discussing Jack Rieley and the Rieley era ...

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« Reply #102 on: September 16, 2018, 01:00:40 AM »

Ok here’s a question... how different do you think things would’ve gone down had Brian been more active during the Reiley era?
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« Reply #103 on: September 16, 2018, 01:23:52 AM »

Ok here’s a question... how different do you think things would’ve gone down had Brian been more active during the Reiley era?
I think Reiley would have stayed longer. But then again, would Brian have embraced a new style of music?
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« Reply #104 on: September 16, 2018, 01:42:37 AM »

That’s what I mean. What would Brian sings have sounded like? I mean despite previously held beliefs, he was more involved with So Tough than previously believed. What would’ve happened had he been around during Sunflower? Personally I prefer what we got but it could’ve been interesting
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« Reply #105 on: September 16, 2018, 01:58:41 AM »

That’s what I mean. What would Brian sings have sounded like? I mean despite previously held beliefs, he was more involved with So Tough than previously believed. What would’ve happened had he been around during Sunflower? Personally I prefer what we got but it could’ve been interesting
According to Stephen Desper's notes on his videos Brian is all over Sunflower. Probably more than So Tough. I think perhaps if all three Wilson brothers would have stayed active, it just might have eventually pushed Mike out of the group. Perhaps Brian would have held enough power to keep the "TM axis" from taking over the touring backing group. But what about Blondie and Ricki? Did Blondie have issued with Jack?
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« Reply #106 on: September 16, 2018, 02:01:02 AM »

I meant if Jack had been around during Sunflower
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« Reply #107 on: September 16, 2018, 02:05:13 AM »

I meant if Jack had been around during Sunflower
Yeah, I misread.  LOL I've always thought of Sunflower as kind of Dennis's album.
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« Reply #108 on: September 16, 2018, 02:12:02 AM »

I can see that. I think if Reiley had been around I think Dennis may have been promoted as the main focal point
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« Reply #109 on: September 16, 2018, 06:36:07 AM »

I can see that. I think if Reiley had been around I think Dennis may have been promoted as the main focal point
If only be could have overcome his drinking problem, I can see him becoming perhaps a "duel leader" of the group onstage. I'm thinking of the 1970-ish to 1974 period specifically.
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« Reply #110 on: September 18, 2018, 10:15:51 PM »

Revisiting the earlier comments about the Wilsons being pushed more to the fore during the Rieley era, and questions if that were the case, just look at the writing credits on Surf's Up-Carl And The Passions-Holland. Mike is listed as co-writer on 7 tracks across those three albums. One of those was a lyrical rewrite of Leiber and Stoller. They were spreading out the writing duties and it shows just by reading the credits and noting who was writing the tunes during this time.

Just to be clear, I was only refuting one statement you made. You said that Rieley "getting the Wilsons in the forefront of the band's original music was *huge* and needed". I've already commented on that. Bringing up the credits only bolsters my position. The Wilsons credits Friends-Sunflower total 38 [17, 9, 12]. The Wilsons credits Surf's Up-Holland total 18 [6, 6, 6]. Mike having 7 credits Surf's Up-Holland isn't proof of the Wilsons being pushed more into the fore nor does it indicate a change in his role (he had 8 credits Friends-Sunflower). Al had the same amount of credits as Mike in each period. So, what gives? We're hearing approximately the same amount of Mike and Al (and Bruce, where applicable). The person thrusted to the forefront was Jack Rieley and his 9 credits. Blondie and Ricky also contributed 3 credits each. There's also the double LP In Concert which couldn't find room for a single Dennis song (written or sung). Now, obviously, songwriting credits don't tell the whole story and not all songwriting credits are created equal Grin. I get that. With that said, I thought fans praised the late 60s-early 70s Beach Boys because it was a true group effort. Jack's recollections and some of your posts in this thread seem to be trying pretty hard to diminish that.

On a separate note, I've been listening to a lot of Live In London lately. Incredible! I think I've been overlooking that one a bit. Of course, I also tack on the live version of "All I Want To Do" from MiC to the end. I can't do without it. It's probably the hardest rockin' Beach Boys performance ever! Anyway, listening to that great live album with Jack's comments fresh in my mind really put me off. He absolutely trashed their live group. The striped shirts were long gone. They had added a horn section and additional musicians, such as, Ed Carter, Billy Hinsche, and Mike Kowalski. The setlist really strikes me, though. None of the classic surf or car song. Not a single one. They're taking chances with new sounds and styles and managed to represent every album from Summer Days (And Summer Nights!!) - 20/20. You wouldn't get that from Jack's comments at all. Generally, the tone of his recollections don't inspire much confidence. Which is too bad.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2018, 10:27:04 PM by B.E. » Logged
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« Reply #111 on: September 19, 2018, 01:00:06 PM »

The point is simple, really. The BB's all tried to pick up the slack in mid-68 when Brian had his actual breakdown. 20/20 sets the tone and pace for that, as the LPs take on a group aspect. SUNFLOWER continues that, though Brian and Dennis are more prominent there. SURF'S UP was some kind of battleground that is hard to completely tease out due to the range of stories told by the participants. Carl is the one who comes to the fore as a songwriter and as producer, bringing the sound into something more compatible with what was going on elsewhere at the time. CARL AND THE PASSIONS continued that, with Carl more as producer than as songwriter. B.E. overlooks "Mess of Help" and "Marcella," two standout tracks that show a completely different direction for Brian than what had been seen for more than half a decade (with oversight from Carl). It's an LP born out of the aftermath of strife and a set of personnel changes that followed in its wake--as a result, it's all over the map. Reiley and Carl pieced together a more cohesive version of SO TOUGH with HOLLAND, thanks equally to that odd piano they found in Holland, better songs from Dennis, Carl's best track ("The Trader"), and WB's intervention to get "Sail On Sailor" on the LP in place of "We Got Love." Al and Mike peaked here as they passed through their "hippie" phases in that mythically strange year of 1972.

I would expect that Jack was exhausted by the relentless politics that were part of the BBs operation, and he had his own personal reasons for wanting out--which has to color at least a portion of what he wrote in retrospect and explains some of the tone. He created various forms of upheaval in the band, some of it very positive in the short term, and some of which came back to bite him and Carl (who was his most prominent ally). When he left, Carl probably felt abandoned, and his attempts to shore up the band, be Brian's surrogate and deal with the impossible, strangling myth that encompassed the BBs were too complex to keep doing without some kind of collapse of his own. A year later ENDLESS SUMMER was a game-changer, and the BBs were huge again, but for reasons that in no way could support the approach they'd taken in 1968-73. And so it goes...
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« Reply #112 on: September 21, 2018, 10:28:13 AM »

Don: I agree with a lot of that. However, I'd suggest reading that 1976 Dennis interview which I posted above, where Dennis suggests it was the band's dedicated touring which built up (or rebuilt?) the band's stature rather than "Endless Summer" being the cure-all that healed the band's ills.

If Dennis' comments sound accurate, then that was Jack's influence and plans coming to fruition in terms of getting the band shaped up into a touring outfit which would play shows along the lines of rock fans' tastes in 1972 and tour in order to build up a new audience more in tune with FM radio than matching suits.

I think Jack may have seen that the appeal of both Dennis and Carl in terms of music and outlook was more in tune with the FM radio/rock concert audience.

One thing that cannot be debated, whether it's due to Dennis' reasons or not, is that Jack's plans seemed to be working as they unfolded even after he left and Guercio got involved.

The band was selling albums in the US in numbers (top 30, top 40, top 50) with Surf's Up and subsequent releases which they had not sold since 1967.
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« Reply #113 on: September 22, 2018, 08:55:28 AM »

I pride myself in being a truth seeker. Something that I realize is that the truth is not always what I want it to be. If you can't tell by my profile name, I love the Jack Rieley era! I think that that along with 65-67, were the artistic heights of the bands career, and 68-70 as well as Love You were not far behind. However, I recall a quote by Carl criticizing Jack Rieley or someone for not listening to all sides. While Carl leaned toward the artistic side, he also respected all voices in the group when he was a leader. He may have faught for Mike and Al's songs to be included on Surfs Up-Holland. Perhaps that had something to do with his fight with Dennis.  

As for the audience shouting for the hits during the newer songs, I will say that I wasn't born until 1977. I have just read things. But my guess is that increased in 1974 after Jack Rieley left and Endless Summer came out. When it went platinum,  it is obvious to me that the majority of fans wanted the hits. Personally,  I believe it was the worst thing to happen to them artistically. They were building something great. Holland showed hints of where they might go next. I feel that Pacific Ocean Blue was the next step.

Also, as a truth seeker,  I try to understand all people's perspective. Personally,  I hate the 80s and 90s Beach Boys for the most part. But let's try and look at this objectively here. In the late 70s, all 3 Wilson brothers were in a bad place. None of them were capable of leading the band at that point. I'm sure Mike worried about the future of the band. I didn't see him fighting for power in 1973 for example. He actually says good things about that era to this very day! He says he liked Blondie, Ricky and Jack Rieley.  He always has good things to say about Carl. He seemed to support Brian's leadership for a time in the mid 70s, but probably realized that Brian was slipping away again. Al voted with Mike because he saw the same thing
 Brian became less interested and sold his vote to Mike. Perhaps I wish he sold it to Carl, but he was also in a bad place at the time. Carl cleaned up and decided to do his own thing. When he returned, he was more interested in being a moderator than a leader. Think about it this way, there were wives and children depending on them. Carl was probably more concerned with the business side than artistic side at this point.

To me, it seems the Beach Boys have been cursed to being a fun in the sun oldies act. I hate this fact, but think about it. Brian was working on Smile and had a nervous breakdown. The following albums were great, but not commercially accessible. In 74 after Holland, Endless Summer came out and went Platinum. They were fighting their own fans at that point! As Carl said in the 1980 tv interview, they fought their old image for years, but realized that's what the fans wanted.

I don't agree with Mike on several things,  but I also don't think he is pure evil, or as egotistical as some might state. He has a sense of humor that some take too seriously I think. I get the sense that his 'scars' was a metaphor. I am sure that he believed that if he didn't take over the Beach Boys in 78-79, they would have collapsed.  And he is probably right! While people blame Mike for the cheesiness of that period,  I must point out that many 60s bands were cheesy in the 80s. As were many 80s bands! Lol! I think Al was embarrassed about the direction they were going and hoped Carl would come back and save it. But I think Carl was more interested in holding things together at that point. He may have
 backed up Mike as the leader, but also faught to keep Al around. Bruce probably just made a business decision to be Mike's biggest supporter in 1998 to keep his job.

« Last Edit: September 22, 2018, 09:04:37 AM by Magic Transistor Radio » Logged

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Mike Love autobiography (pg 242-243)
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« Reply #114 on: September 25, 2018, 09:59:10 AM »

I pride myself in being a truth seeker. Something that I realize is that the truth is not always what I want it to be. If you can't tell by my profile name, I love the Jack Rieley era! I think that that along with 65-67, were the artistic heights of the bands career, and 68-70 as well as Love You were not far behind. However, I recall a quote by Carl criticizing Jack Rieley or someone for not listening to all sides. While Carl leaned toward the artistic side, he also respected all voices in the group when he was a leader. He may have faught for Mike and Al's songs to be included on Surfs Up-Holland. Perhaps that had something to do with his fight with Dennis.  

As for the audience shouting for the hits during the newer songs, I will say that I wasn't born until 1977. I have just read things. But my guess is that increased in 1974 after Jack Rieley left and Endless Summer came out. When it went platinum,  it is obvious to me that the majority of fans wanted the hits. Personally,  I believe it was the worst thing to happen to them artistically. They were building something great. Holland showed hints of where they might go next. I feel that Pacific Ocean Blue was the next step.

Also, as a truth seeker,  I try to understand all people's perspective. Personally,  I hate the 80s and 90s Beach Boys for the most part. But let's try and look at this objectively here. In the late 70s, all 3 Wilson brothers were in a bad place. None of them were capable of leading the band at that point. I'm sure Mike worried about the future of the band. I didn't see him fighting for power in 1973 for example. He actually says good things about that era to this very day! He says he liked Blondie, Ricky and Jack Rieley.  He always has good things to say about Carl. He seemed to support Brian's leadership for a time in the mid 70s, but probably realized that Brian was slipping away again. Al voted with Mike because he saw the same thing
 Brian became less interested and sold his vote to Mike. Perhaps I wish he sold it to Carl, but he was also in a bad place at the time. Carl cleaned up and decided to do his own thing. When he returned, he was more interested in being a moderator than a leader. Think about it this way, there were wives and children depending on them. Carl was probably more concerned with the business side than artistic side at this point.

To me, it seems the Beach Boys have been cursed to being a fun in the sun oldies act. I hate this fact, but think about it. Brian was working on Smile and had a nervous breakdown. The following albums were great, but not commercially accessible. In 74 after Holland, Endless Summer came out and went Platinum. They were fighting their own fans at that point! As Carl said in the 1980 tv interview, they fought their old image for years, but realized that's what the fans wanted.

I don't agree with Mike on several things,  but I also don't think he is pure evil, or as egotistical as some might state. He has a sense of humor that some take too seriously I think. I get the sense that his 'scars' was a metaphor. I am sure that he believed that if he didn't take over the Beach Boys in 78-79, they would have collapsed.  And he is probably right! While people blame Mike for the cheesiness of that period,  I must point out that many 60s bands were cheesy in the 80s. As were many 80s bands! Lol! I think Al was embarrassed about the direction they were going and hoped Carl would come back and save it. But I think Carl was more interested in holding things together at that point. He may have
 backed up Mike as the leader, but also faught to keep Al around. Bruce probably just made a business decision to be Mike's biggest supporter in 1998 to keep his job.



What stands out is how both Endless Summer and Kokomo, the two items which brought the band their most commercial success in the 70's and the 80's respectively, were more or less flukes that connected at that specific time to wider audiences due as much to what was surrounding their releases in pop culture and good old fashioned timing. ES was Capitol deciding to mine the back catalog for "Greatest Hits vol. 3" and releasing it when the country was hungry for nostalgia, and Kokomo was placed on a soundtrack of a blockbuster Tom Cruise fluff film. Neither could have been planned out any more than the Beatles hitting American audiences not much more than a month after the JFK assassination and subsequent national shock and mourning period which left a void in the teen generation which the Beatles happened to be there to fill.

Again, consider what Dennis said in '76 about the band's touring and live shows being as much of a catalyst for their revival as the Endless Summer fluke.

What also stands out is the band's history in the 70's and beyond. I know some will refute anything that Jack Rieley said, but consider if his account of Mike declaring "I am the Beach Boys!" during an angry exchange was exactly what happened. There is the dynamic of a band member who wanted desperately to be thought of as the leader of this band entering the mix. What you'll see is several people brought in to manage or work behind the scenes in management or financial roles eventually being accused of some manner of wrongdoing or malfeasance, and being unceremoniously dumped or simply choosing to leave. When this included Mike's own brother, you see how bizarre it all must have been.

Then fast forward to when Al Jardine got fired from the band - led by Mike - it's even more surreal yet it falls into line with what appeared to be a decades-old power grab. I think Carl simply checked out after a certain point. Dennis definitely did. Brian did years earlier. The notions of a normal working band just came and went in cycles, as did the notion of keeping a manager of any kind without eventually accusing them of wrongdoing.

Look for the common threads in all of the history and they will become visible.
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"Every single person who criticized Brian for having She & Him, Kacey Musgraves, Sebu and Nate Ruess guesting on his solo album can now officially go heartily f*** themselves." - Wirestone
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« Reply #115 on: September 25, 2018, 07:31:12 PM »

I pride myself in being a truth seeker. Something that I realize is that the truth is not always what I want it to be. If you can't tell by my profile name, I love the Jack Rieley era! I think that that along with 65-67, were the artistic heights of the bands career, and 68-70 as well as Love You were not far behind. However, I recall a quote by Carl criticizing Jack Rieley or someone for not listening to all sides. While Carl leaned toward the artistic side, he also respected all voices in the group when he was a leader. He may have faught for Mike and Al's songs to be included on Surfs Up-Holland. Perhaps that had something to do with his fight with Dennis. 

As for the audience shouting for the hits during the newer songs, I will say that I wasn't born until 1977. I have just read things. But my guess is that increased in 1974 after Jack Rieley left and Endless Summer came out. When it went platinum,  it is obvious to me that the majority of fans wanted the hits. Personally,  I believe it was the worst thing to happen to them artistically. They were building something great. Holland showed hints of where they might go next. I feel that Pacific Ocean Blue was the next step.

Also, as a truth seeker,  I try to understand all people's perspective. Personally,  I hate the 80s and 90s Beach Boys for the most part. But let's try and look at this objectively here. In the late 70s, all 3 Wilson brothers were in a bad place. None of them were capable of leading the band at that point. I'm sure Mike worried about the future of the band. I didn't see him fighting for power in 1973 for example. He actually says good things about that era to this very day! He says he liked Blondie, Ricky and Jack Rieley.  He always has good things to say about Carl. He seemed to support Brian's leadership for a time in the mid 70s, but probably realized that Brian was slipping away again. Al voted with Mike because he saw the same thing
 Brian became less interested and sold his vote to Mike. Perhaps I wish he sold it to Carl, but he was also in a bad place at the time. Carl cleaned up and decided to do his own thing. When he returned, he was more interested in being a moderator than a leader. Think about it this way, there were wives and children depending on them. Carl was probably more concerned with the business side than artistic side at this point.

To me, it seems the Beach Boys have been cursed to being a fun in the sun oldies act. I hate this fact, but think about it. Brian was working on Smile and had a nervous breakdown. The following albums were great, but not commercially accessible. In 74 after Holland, Endless Summer came out and went Platinum. They were fighting their own fans at that point! As Carl said in the 1980 tv interview, they fought their old image for years, but realized that's what the fans wanted.

I don't agree with Mike on several things,  but I also don't think he is pure evil, or as egotistical as some might state. He has a sense of humor that some take too seriously I think. I get the sense that his 'scars' was a metaphor. I am sure that he believed that if he didn't take over the Beach Boys in 78-79, they would have collapsed.  And he is probably right! While people blame Mike for the cheesiness of that period,  I must point out that many 60s bands were cheesy in the 80s. As were many 80s bands! Lol! I think Al was embarrassed about the direction they were going and hoped Carl would come back and save it. But I think Carl was more interested in holding things together at that point. He may have
 backed up Mike as the leader, but also faught to keep Al around. Bruce probably just made a business decision to be Mike's biggest supporter in 1998 to keep his job.



What stands out is how both Endless Summer and Kokomo, the two items which brought the band their most commercial success in the 70's and the 80's respectively, were more or less flukes that connected at that specific time to wider audiences due as much to what was surrounding their releases in pop culture and good old fashioned timing. ES was Capitol deciding to mine the back catalog for "Greatest Hits vol. 3" and releasing it when the country was hungry for nostalgia, and Kokomo was placed on a soundtrack of a blockbuster Tom Cruise fluff film. Neither could have been planned out any more than the Beatles hitting American audiences not much more than a month after the JFK assassination and subsequent national shock and mourning period which left a void in the teen generation which the Beatles happened to be there to fill.

Again, consider what Dennis said in '76 about the band's touring and live shows being as much of a catalyst for their revival as the Endless Summer fluke.

What also stands out is the band's history in the 70's and beyond. I know some will refute anything that Jack Rieley said, but consider if his account of Mike declaring "I am the Beach Boys!" during an angry exchange was exactly what happened. There is the dynamic of a band member who wanted desperately to be thought of as the leader of this band entering the mix. What you'll see is several people brought in to manage or work behind the scenes in management or financial roles eventually being accused of some manner of wrongdoing or malfeasance, and being unceremoniously dumped or simply choosing to leave. When this included Mike's own brother, you see how bizarre it all must have been.

Then fast forward to when Al Jardine got fired from the band - led by Mike - it's even more surreal yet it falls into line with what appeared to be a decades-old power grab. I think Carl simply checked out after a certain point. Dennis definitely did. Brian did years earlier. The notions of a normal working band just came and went in cycles, as did the notion of keeping a manager of any kind without eventually accusing them of wrongdoing.

Look for the common threads in all of the history and they will become visible.

Mike has been accused of saying things he has denied saying,  such as "don't f$%k with the formula'. So I am not convinced that he said that he is the Beach Boys. Maybe he did. I know he said in the Endless Harmony documentary that his positivity is why the band meant so much to so many people vs Brian's melancholy.  So it isn't far fetched. I agree that the Beach Boys had been building something great from 69-73 that was over shadowed by their past. I am curious if there was no Endless Summer if they would have continued to progress or if things were falling apart politically in the band as Rieley hints at. Ricky and Blondie have stated that they didn't see any of that while they were there. As for Mike taking control,  I really don't think that happened until Brian sold his vote to Mike in 78 or 79?? That was a period when all 3 Wilson brothers were in a bad place. And by 1981 or 82, there were many concerts without any of the Wilsons. When Carl came back from his solo career. Dennis was at the end, Brian was under Landy and Carl seemed uninterested in fighting and just went along with it. I really think that Mike felt it was necessary at that point. I agree he was the least talented,  but had the strongest head on his shoulders at the time. I wish Carl had more pride, but he had given up control in 74. When Brian was ready to return in the 90s, even Carl voted against Brian's songs. Perhaps they were worried that he couldn't handle it. I am curious as to what Carl would think today about Brian's solo career and if he would have wanted the reunion to be permanent.  Wouldn't that be cool if That Lucky Old Sun was the same, but with Beach Boys singing on it? Or Reimagines Gershwin? Who knows? Or would they have never happened? Or if Dennis survived in the 80s and recovered, how would that effect things? It is difficult to know, and a sad story. But I thing the albums in the 70s and 80s would have been much better,  if it weren't for the Wilson's drug addictions.  I will agree with Mike on that. I bet that he would rather have all 3 guys healthy and not have the power. I have seen him cry in interviews because of how it has effected Brian and that Dennis is no longer with us.
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"Over the years, I've been accused of not supporting our new music from this era (67-73) and just wanting to play our hits. That's complete b.s......I was also, as the front man, the one promoting these songs onstage and have the scars to show for it."
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« Reply #116 on: September 25, 2018, 09:01:27 PM »



Don't let those fake Mike Love tears pull you in. He's laughing all the way to the bank thanks to his talented cousins.

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« Reply #117 on: September 26, 2018, 12:08:42 AM »

Oh I think they are real. It’s just he has more issues going on and is handling none of them well. Just my unqualified opinion.
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« Reply #118 on: September 26, 2018, 12:37:20 AM »

Oh I think they are real. It’s just he has more issues going on and is handling none of them well. Just my unqualified opinion.
I agree. In a weird way, Mike might be more mentally unhealthy than Brian.
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« Reply #119 on: September 26, 2018, 06:41:11 AM »



Don't let those fake Mike Love tears pull you in. He's laughing all the way to the bank thanks to his talented cousins.



 I suppose anyone that thinks Mike is pure evil won't believe there is a genuine bone in his body. How can either of us know what's in his heart? You might say his actions,  but I understand why he did it. If he didn't,  I bet the Beach Boys would have broken up in 78. Which might not have been a bad thing.
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"Over the years, I've been accused of not supporting our new music from this era (67-73) and just wanting to play our hits. That's complete b.s......I was also, as the front man, the one promoting these songs onstage and have the scars to show for it."
Mike Love autobiography (pg 242-243)
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« Reply #120 on: September 26, 2018, 08:06:13 AM »



Don't let those fake Mike Love tears pull you in. He's laughing all the way to the bank thanks to his talented cousins.



 I suppose anyone that thinks Mike is pure evil won't believe there is a genuine bone in his body. How can either of us know what's in his heart? You might say his actions,  but I understand why he did it. If he didn't,  I bet the Beach Boys would have broken up in 78. Which might not have been a bad thing.

You're doggone correct, MTR. They should have disbanded before Larry(Stamos), Curly(Mike), and Moe(Bruce) got ahold of the license and shredded the BB legacy with their shenanigans. "Do It Again" anyone? Oh most definitely, FP, Mike's mind is as fubar as it gets. As far as his heart goes, if you open him up, you won't find one but instead find a safe deposit box. It's difficult to think of a more mercenary individual than Mike Love.
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« Reply #121 on: September 26, 2018, 11:37:37 AM »

I pride myself in being a truth seeker. Something that I realize is that the truth is not always what I want it to be. If you can't tell by my profile name, I love the Jack Rieley era! I think that that along with 65-67, were the artistic heights of the bands career, and 68-70 as well as Love You were not far behind. However, I recall a quote by Carl criticizing Jack Rieley or someone for not listening to all sides. While Carl leaned toward the artistic side, he also respected all voices in the group when he was a leader. He may have faught for Mike and Al's songs to be included on Surfs Up-Holland. Perhaps that had something to do with his fight with Dennis. 

As for the audience shouting for the hits during the newer songs, I will say that I wasn't born until 1977. I have just read things. But my guess is that increased in 1974 after Jack Rieley left and Endless Summer came out. When it went platinum,  it is obvious to me that the majority of fans wanted the hits. Personally,  I believe it was the worst thing to happen to them artistically. They were building something great. Holland showed hints of where they might go next. I feel that Pacific Ocean Blue was the next step.

Also, as a truth seeker,  I try to understand all people's perspective. Personally,  I hate the 80s and 90s Beach Boys for the most part. But let's try and look at this objectively here. In the late 70s, all 3 Wilson brothers were in a bad place. None of them were capable of leading the band at that point. I'm sure Mike worried about the future of the band. I didn't see him fighting for power in 1973 for example. He actually says good things about that era to this very day! He says he liked Blondie, Ricky and Jack Rieley.  He always has good things to say about Carl. He seemed to support Brian's leadership for a time in the mid 70s, but probably realized that Brian was slipping away again. Al voted with Mike because he saw the same thing
 Brian became less interested and sold his vote to Mike. Perhaps I wish he sold it to Carl, but he was also in a bad place at the time. Carl cleaned up and decided to do his own thing. When he returned, he was more interested in being a moderator than a leader. Think about it this way, there were wives and children depending on them. Carl was probably more concerned with the business side than artistic side at this point.

To me, it seems the Beach Boys have been cursed to being a fun in the sun oldies act. I hate this fact, but think about it. Brian was working on Smile and had a nervous breakdown. The following albums were great, but not commercially accessible. In 74 after Holland, Endless Summer came out and went Platinum. They were fighting their own fans at that point! As Carl said in the 1980 tv interview, they fought their old image for years, but realized that's what the fans wanted.

I don't agree with Mike on several things,  but I also don't think he is pure evil, or as egotistical as some might state. He has a sense of humor that some take too seriously I think. I get the sense that his 'scars' was a metaphor. I am sure that he believed that if he didn't take over the Beach Boys in 78-79, they would have collapsed.  And he is probably right! While people blame Mike for the cheesiness of that period,  I must point out that many 60s bands were cheesy in the 80s. As were many 80s bands! Lol! I think Al was embarrassed about the direction they were going and hoped Carl would come back and save it. But I think Carl was more interested in holding things together at that point. He may have
 backed up Mike as the leader, but also faught to keep Al around. Bruce probably just made a business decision to be Mike's biggest supporter in 1998 to keep his job.



What stands out is how both Endless Summer and Kokomo, the two items which brought the band their most commercial success in the 70's and the 80's respectively, were more or less flukes that connected at that specific time to wider audiences due as much to what was surrounding their releases in pop culture and good old fashioned timing. ES was Capitol deciding to mine the back catalog for "Greatest Hits vol. 3" and releasing it when the country was hungry for nostalgia, and Kokomo was placed on a soundtrack of a blockbuster Tom Cruise fluff film. Neither could have been planned out any more than the Beatles hitting American audiences not much more than a month after the JFK assassination and subsequent national shock and mourning period which left a void in the teen generation which the Beatles happened to be there to fill.

Again, consider what Dennis said in '76 about the band's touring and live shows being as much of a catalyst for their revival as the Endless Summer fluke.

What also stands out is the band's history in the 70's and beyond. I know some will refute anything that Jack Rieley said, but consider if his account of Mike declaring "I am the Beach Boys!" during an angry exchange was exactly what happened. There is the dynamic of a band member who wanted desperately to be thought of as the leader of this band entering the mix. What you'll see is several people brought in to manage or work behind the scenes in management or financial roles eventually being accused of some manner of wrongdoing or malfeasance, and being unceremoniously dumped or simply choosing to leave. When this included Mike's own brother, you see how bizarre it all must have been.

Then fast forward to when Al Jardine got fired from the band - led by Mike - it's even more surreal yet it falls into line with what appeared to be a decades-old power grab. I think Carl simply checked out after a certain point. Dennis definitely did. Brian did years earlier. The notions of a normal working band just came and went in cycles, as did the notion of keeping a manager of any kind without eventually accusing them of wrongdoing.

Look for the common threads in all of the history and they will become visible.

Mike has been accused of saying things he has denied saying,  such as "don't f$%k with the formula'. So I am not convinced that he said that he is the Beach Boys. Maybe he did. I know he said in the Endless Harmony documentary that his positivity is why the band meant so much to so many people vs Brian's melancholy.  So it isn't far fetched. I agree that the Beach Boys had been building something great from 69-73 that was over shadowed by their past. I am curious if there was no Endless Summer if they would have continued to progress or if things were falling apart politically in the band as Rieley hints at. Ricky and Blondie have stated that they didn't see any of that while they were there. As for Mike taking control,  I really don't think that happened until Brian sold his vote to Mike in 78 or 79?? That was a period when all 3 Wilson brothers were in a bad place. And by 1981 or 82, there were many concerts without any of the Wilsons. When Carl came back from his solo career. Dennis was at the end, Brian was under Landy and Carl seemed uninterested in fighting and just went along with it. I really think that Mike felt it was necessary at that point. I agree he was the least talented,  but had the strongest head on his shoulders at the time. I wish Carl had more pride, but he had given up control in 74. When Brian was ready to return in the 90s, even Carl voted against Brian's songs. Perhaps they were worried that he couldn't handle it. I am curious as to what Carl would think today about Brian's solo career and if he would have wanted the reunion to be permanent.  Wouldn't that be cool if That Lucky Old Sun was the same, but with Beach Boys singing on it? Or Reimagines Gershwin? Who knows? Or would they have never happened? Or if Dennis survived in the 80s and recovered, how would that effect things? It is difficult to know, and a sad story. But I thing the albums in the 70s and 80s would have been much better,  if it weren't for the Wilson's drug addictions.  I will agree with Mike on that. I bet that he would rather have all 3 guys healthy and not have the power. I have seen him cry in interviews because of how it has effected Brian and that Dennis is no longer with us.

I'd just like to point out that some who may be described by certain others as an "impeccable source" have said matter-of-factly that Mike thinks he is the Beach Boys. The notion did not come out of thin air, and it has been talked about previously. With that in mind, such a scene as Rieley described Mike himself saying essentially the same thing back in '72 or so becomes more plausible, and the possibility that what Jack reported is essentially what happened becomes more believable when put into context.

I'm curious to ask, and granted I may just be overlooking something I've read as well, what is the source of info that said Brian "sold" his vote to Mike? To the best of my memory, the only BRI member whose vote was sold was Dennis, done after the fact to pay off debts (IIRC). If Brian did in fact sell his BRI member vote to Mike at some point, he obviously bought it back because the current BRI votes are Brian, Al, Mike, and Carl's sons...and that has been the setup for several decades.
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« Reply #122 on: September 26, 2018, 11:59:15 AM »

Most insiders seem to agree that, despite some clear "shadiness" on a personal level, Rieley's work with the Boys bore very positive results, results that might not have been achieved otherwise. Reading through pages 142-152 of the David Leaf book, we see comments like "Supposedly, Rieley would create dissension within the ranks by talking behind peoples' backs, and then establish himself as the one central figure they could all 'trust'", "...Rieley had never worked for NBC, won the Pulitzer Prize, or done anything else he'd claimed. His actual background allegedly showed a lack of stability", and "One humorous note...is that Brian and Jack's friendship only lasted a few weeks before  Brian got bored with Jack", quoting Ben Edmonds as saying, "Even when the rest of them were apparently fooled...Brian really knew what was going on. Brian made up a little song called 'Is Jack Rieley Really Superman?'".  But Leaf then goes on to write that Jack "was still making the right career moves even if his intentions weren't pure."  Later, Leaf writes, "Despite all the claims that Rieley took advantage of the group, his contribution should never be underestimated", and quotes Ben Edmonds again as saying, "As much of a liar and a possible crook, or whatever Jack Rieley might have been, he was also responsible for bringing the Beach Boys back out of obscurity, something that they could never have done themselves...There are probably a lot of negative things that people have to say about Jack Rieley, my own included, but you also have to give him credit where credit is due...He made a place for the Beach Boys again, and you can't take that away from him."  

Recognition of Jack's contributions among the band members certainly extended to the creative side, as well. Bruce Johnston - probably Jack's most vocal and consistent critic on a personal trustworthiness level - admitted in an interview with Brad Elliott a decade later that he never had a problem with Jack's lyrics, and actually thought they were "really great". And Mike, who according to his autobiography liked Reiley, would regularly praise the Carl-Rieley composition "The Trader" as one of his favorites.
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« Reply #123 on: September 28, 2018, 05:50:45 AM »

I pride myself in being a truth seeker. Something that I realize is that the truth is not always what I want it to be. If you can't tell by my profile name, I love the Jack Rieley era! I think that that along with 65-67, were the artistic heights of the bands career, and 68-70 as well as Love You were not far behind. However, I recall a quote by Carl criticizing Jack Rieley or someone for not listening to all sides. While Carl leaned toward the artistic side, he also respected all voices in the group when he was a leader. He may have faught for Mike and Al's songs to be included on Surfs Up-Holland. Perhaps that had something to do with his fight with Dennis. 

As for the audience shouting for the hits during the newer songs, I will say that I wasn't born until 1977. I have just read things. But my guess is that increased in 1974 after Jack Rieley left and Endless Summer came out. When it went platinum,  it is obvious to me that the majority of fans wanted the hits. Personally,  I believe it was the worst thing to happen to them artistically. They were building something great. Holland showed hints of where they might go next. I feel that Pacific Ocean Blue was the next step.

Also, as a truth seeker,  I try to understand all people's perspective. Personally,  I hate the 80s and 90s Beach Boys for the most part. But let's try and look at this objectively here. In the late 70s, all 3 Wilson brothers were in a bad place. None of them were capable of leading the band at that point. I'm sure Mike worried about the future of the band. I didn't see him fighting for power in 1973 for example. He actually says good things about that era to this very day! He says he liked Blondie, Ricky and Jack Rieley.  He always has good things to say about Carl. He seemed to support Brian's leadership for a time in the mid 70s, but probably realized that Brian was slipping away again. Al voted with Mike because he saw the same thing
 Brian became less interested and sold his vote to Mike. Perhaps I wish he sold it to Carl, but he was also in a bad place at the time. Carl cleaned up and decided to do his own thing. When he returned, he was more interested in being a moderator than a leader. Think about it this way, there were wives and children depending on them. Carl was probably more concerned with the business side than artistic side at this point.

To me, it seems the Beach Boys have been cursed to being a fun in the sun oldies act. I hate this fact, but think about it. Brian was working on Smile and had a nervous breakdown. The following albums were great, but not commercially accessible. In 74 after Holland, Endless Summer came out and went Platinum. They were fighting their own fans at that point! As Carl said in the 1980 tv interview, they fought their old image for years, but realized that's what the fans wanted.

I don't agree with Mike on several things,  but I also don't think he is pure evil, or as egotistical as some might state. He has a sense of humor that some take too seriously I think. I get the sense that his 'scars' was a metaphor. I am sure that he believed that if he didn't take over the Beach Boys in 78-79, they would have collapsed.  And he is probably right! While people blame Mike for the cheesiness of that period,  I must point out that many 60s bands were cheesy in the 80s. As were many 80s bands! Lol! I think Al was embarrassed about the direction they were going and hoped Carl would come back and save it. But I think Carl was more interested in holding things together at that point. He may have
 backed up Mike as the leader, but also faught to keep Al around. Bruce probably just made a business decision to be Mike's biggest supporter in 1998 to keep his job.



What stands out is how both Endless Summer and Kokomo, the two items which brought the band their most commercial success in the 70's and the 80's respectively, were more or less flukes that connected at that specific time to wider audiences due as much to what was surrounding their releases in pop culture and good old fashioned timing. ES was Capitol deciding to mine the back catalog for "Greatest Hits vol. 3" and releasing it when the country was hungry for nostalgia, and Kokomo was placed on a soundtrack of a blockbuster Tom Cruise fluff film. Neither could have been planned out any more than the Beatles hitting American audiences not much more than a month after the JFK assassination and subsequent national shock and mourning period which left a void in the teen generation which the Beatles happened to be there to fill.

Again, consider what Dennis said in '76 about the band's touring and live shows being as much of a catalyst for their revival as the Endless Summer fluke.

What also stands out is the band's history in the 70's and beyond. I know some will refute anything that Jack Rieley said, but consider if his account of Mike declaring "I am the Beach Boys!" during an angry exchange was exactly what happened. There is the dynamic of a band member who wanted desperately to be thought of as the leader of this band entering the mix. What you'll see is several people brought in to manage or work behind the scenes in management or financial roles eventually being accused of some manner of wrongdoing or malfeasance, and being unceremoniously dumped or simply choosing to leave. When this included Mike's own brother, you see how bizarre it all must have been.

Then fast forward to when Al Jardine got fired from the band - led by Mike - it's even more surreal yet it falls into line with what appeared to be a decades-old power grab. I think Carl simply checked out after a certain point. Dennis definitely did. Brian did years earlier. The notions of a normal working band just came and went in cycles, as did the notion of keeping a manager of any kind without eventually accusing them of wrongdoing.

Look for the common threads in all of the history and they will become visible.

Mike has been accused of saying things he has denied saying,  such as "don't f$%k with the formula'. So I am not convinced that he said that he is the Beach Boys. Maybe he did. I know he said in the Endless Harmony documentary that his positivity is why the band meant so much to so many people vs Brian's melancholy.  So it isn't far fetched. I agree that the Beach Boys had been building something great from 69-73 that was over shadowed by their past. I am curious if there was no Endless Summer if they would have continued to progress or if things were falling apart politically in the band as Rieley hints at. Ricky and Blondie have stated that they didn't see any of that while they were there. As for Mike taking control,  I really don't think that happened until Brian sold his vote to Mike in 78 or 79?? That was a period when all 3 Wilson brothers were in a bad place. And by 1981 or 82, there were many concerts without any of the Wilsons. When Carl came back from his solo career. Dennis was at the end, Brian was under Landy and Carl seemed uninterested in fighting and just went along with it. I really think that Mike felt it was necessary at that point. I agree he was the least talented,  but had the strongest head on his shoulders at the time. I wish Carl had more pride, but he had given up control in 74. When Brian was ready to return in the 90s, even Carl voted against Brian's songs. Perhaps they were worried that he couldn't handle it. I am curious as to what Carl would think today about Brian's solo career and if he would have wanted the reunion to be permanent.  Wouldn't that be cool if That Lucky Old Sun was the same, but with Beach Boys singing on it? Or Reimagines Gershwin? Who knows? Or would they have never happened? Or if Dennis survived in the 80s and recovered, how would that effect things? It is difficult to know, and a sad story. But I thing the albums in the 70s and 80s would have been much better,  if it weren't for the Wilson's drug addictions.  I will agree with Mike on that. I bet that he would rather have all 3 guys healthy and not have the power. I have seen him cry in interviews because of how it has effected Brian and that Dennis is no longer with us.

I'd just like to point out that some who may be described by certain others as an "impeccable source" have said matter-of-factly that Mike thinks he is the Beach Boys. The notion did not come out of thin air, and it has been talked about previously. With that in mind, such a scene as Rieley described Mike himself saying essentially the same thing back in '72 or so becomes more plausible, and the possibility that what Jack reported is essentially what happened becomes more believable when put into context.

I'm curious to ask, and granted I may just be overlooking something I've read as well, what is the source of info that said Brian "sold" his vote to Mike? To the best of my memory, the only BRI member whose vote was sold was Dennis, done after the fact to pay off debts (IIRC). If Brian did in fact sell his BRI member vote to Mike at some point, he obviously bought it back because the current BRI votes are Brian, Al, Mike, and Carl's sons...and that has been the setup for several decades.

I can't recall exactly where I read that Brian sold or gave his vote to Mike. I think it was in John Stebbins book, The Real Beach Boy.  But I will have to find it. My memory was that it was around 78.
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"Over the years, I've been accused of not supporting our new music from this era (67-73) and just wanting to play our hits. That's complete b.s......I was also, as the front man, the one promoting these songs onstage and have the scars to show for it."
Mike Love autobiography (pg 242-243)
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