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Author Topic: Recent thoughts on Jack Rieley by the Beach Boys?  (Read 3657 times)
Lee Marshall
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« Reply #50 on: September 13, 2018, 06:18:39 PM »

Touchy issue...
In defense of Mike-Bruce-Al, they shouldn't be forced to be something that they're not. 

Beach Boys in step with the future?
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"Add Some...Music...To Your Day.  I do.  It's the only way to fly.  Well...what was I gonna put here?  An apple a day keeps the doctor away?  Hum me a few bars."   Lee Marshall [2014]

Donald  TRUMP!  ...  Is TOAST.  "What a disaster."  "Overrated?"... ... ..."BIG LEAGUE."  "Lots of people are saying it"  "I will tell you that."   Collusion, Money Laundering, Treason.   B'Bye Dirty Donnie!!!  Adios!!!  Bon Voyage!!!  Toodles!!!  Move yourself...SPANKY!!!  Jail awaits.  It's NO "Witch Hunt". There IS Collusion...and worse.  The Russian Mafia!!  Conspiracies!!  Fraud!!  This racist is goin' down...and soon.  Good Riddance.  And take the kids.
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« Reply #51 on: September 13, 2018, 07:15:21 PM »

Another, point on how Al has changed for the better. Wasnít he the champion for deep cuts on the c50 and 1993 tour? Guy raves about 1970s BBS these days...

Yes, Al was the champion for deep cuts, even back in the '80s. I remember telling him after the 1993 Atlanta show about how much I enjoyed hearing them perform "Vegetables," and he just glowed.

I think Al's opinion of the music was constantly evolving, given what he's said about Dennis' stuff, for example.

In the '70s, he was riding on the "straight" plane with Mike to avoid the smoking and substance use on the "party" plane. (As someone who has an allergy to smoke, I understand not wanting to be exposed to secondhand smoke.) It doesn't mean he was opposed to the newer music.

Jack Reiley had his own prejudices and perceptions of what happened, but I think his accounting of events adds to our knowledge. BTW, all of the Reiley-era shows I saw did have people in the audience calling out for the oldies, even the legendary, incredible 1972 Georgia Tech show when they were touring behind Surf's Up.

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« Reply #52 on: September 13, 2018, 07:31:12 PM »

Craig! I said your comments were unfortunate because from an historical standpoint they totally minimized the difficulties the BBs in concert frequently experienced during the late sixties and early seventies. You have read David Leafís book and Ian and Johnís BBs in Concert Book, right? Fortunately c-man and Jon came on board and set the record straight. Jon even added, "I had to actually edit down that element of the book because Ian had gathered so many reviews stating this phenomena that it became redundant."

And rereading this thread I now realize what the issue seems to be for you and a few others - Mike said something in his book along the lines of having scars from promoting new music and/or fending off requests for oldies, and that statement just had to be refuted because Mike can do nothing worthwhile, right? All his lead vocals? They suck, right? The lyrics to The Warmth of the Sun, Please Let Me Wonder, Kiss Me Baby, Good Vibrations, etc, etc? Pure crap, right? OK, I know youíve never said anything of that nature, but it seems like Mr. Loveís "scarsĒ statement had to be refuted simply because it came from Mike Love.

And for once please donít take any of this personally, OK? Itís just part of the discussion weíre having here. No need to get bent out of shape when someone offers a different opinion than one you have put forth.

Over the years being a rabid Beach Boys fan has not been an easy task at times, and personally I wish the C50 lineup were still intact. But regardless, I see Brian (now with Al and Blondie) and Mike and Bruceís Beach Boys whenever I get the opportunity. I love the music and always feel uplifted when attending any BW or BB concert, and Iím sure that will be the case later this month when I see The M&B Beach Boys in concert.

And hey - one more thing! Apparently there are members of this forum who do not attend current Beach Boys concerts, and thus are unaware that for many years now Mike and the band have in fact been performing Mikeís rewritten 1971 lyrics for íTil I Die, entitled While the Girls Sigh. Here are the lyrics:

While the Girls Sigh

I'm a positive soul man
Floating over a calming sea
I sing about the ocean
Yeah, I sing about the ocean
'Cause I found my way
Hey hey hey

I'm a rock n roll singer
Meditating on the mountainside
Thinking about California girls
Thinking about California girls
It lifts my soul
Hey hey hey

I'm a dude on a happy day
When I sing people are blown away
How long will they listen?
They will listen forever
Ohhhh, Ohhhh, Ohhhh

Just watch me fly
Just watch me fly

These things I'll be while the girls sigh
These things I'll be while the girls sigh
These things I'll be while the girls sigh
While the girls sigh.


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« Reply #53 on: September 13, 2018, 07:53:46 PM »

Craig! I said your comments were unfortunate because from an historical standpoint they totally minimized the difficulties the BBs in concert frequently experienced during the late sixties and early seventies. You have read David Leafís book and Ian and Johnís BBs in Concert Book, right? Fortunately c-man and Jon came on board and set the record straight. Jon even added, "I had to actually edit down that element of the book because Ian had gathered so many reviews stating this phenomena that it became redundant."

And rereading this thread I now realize what the issue seems to be for you and a few others - Mike said something in his book along the lines of having scars from promoting new music and/or fending off requests for oldies, and that statement just had to be refuted because Mike can do nothing worthwhile, right? All his lead vocals? They suck, right? The lyrics to The Warmth of the Sun, Please Let Me Wonder, Kiss Me Baby, Good Vibrations, etc, etc? Pure crap, right? OK, I know youíve never said anything of that nature, but it seems like Mr. Loveís "scarsĒ statement had to be refuted simply because it came from Mike Love.

And for once please donít take any of this personally, OK? Itís just part of the discussion weíre having here. No need to get bent out of shape when someone offers a different opinion than one you have put forth.


No, the issue was discussing Jack Rieley. The issue of the concerts and fan reactions was raised by other posters, who were there too, and did NOT see the level of reactions that others did. I said it was good to get different perspectives on these issues from people who also were there and had different experiences.

I questioned Mike's "scar" thing from the book and asked specifically that someone post the relevant quotes from the book for discussion, so Mike's exact words were listed as we discussed that part of it. I'd like to know what exactly this "scarring" was that Mike reported.

And as I also listed and described other acts over the past 50+ years of rock history getting similar shouts of requests from fans, including the hit record Rick Nelson had which was a reaction to being booed at Madison Square Garden for much the same reasons, I suggested that it was far from exclusive to the Beach Boys...and if you actually read the posts, Jon agreed among others who saw it even further as a non issue but perhaps more relevant to the Beach Boys, again according to some of the replies above.

Dude, if I didn't see what you're doing or trying to do here so often in the past, I'd be bent out of shape. As of right now, I'll stick to what I said and what was said by others including Rieley, whether his criticisms of Mike sit well or not. And continue discussing Rieley, the concerts, and all of the stuff that's actually on topic.

As far as the rest of your comments about Mike's triumphs, I don't know how that has anything to do with what is on the table, but have at it. It's an open forum after all.

If you meet the band backstage, ask Mike if he still thinks he's the Beach Boys 47 years or so after telling that to Rieley.

« Last Edit: September 13, 2018, 07:54:32 PM by guitarfool2002 » Logged

ďSome people think you have to knock somebody down in order to build yourself up, I donít look at it that way. To the mentality that likes to disparage other people, I say perhaps you should get a life. Itís just wrong thinking in my opinion and I donít mind saying that.Ē - Mike Love

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« Reply #54 on: September 13, 2018, 08:02:47 PM »

I'd go a step further and ask what to make of Jack Rieley saying Mike was critical of a handful of songs that most fans consider among the best Beach Boys songs of all time, while I just read something earlier about how supportive Mike was of the new material from that time. Explain that one? It's a direct contradiction, unless Mike is parsing words and considering something like Student Demonstration Time as "new material" he supported. I guess Mike forgot those discussions with Rieley? Jack didn't forget.

Because I believe Rieley 100% when he described how Mike was critical of those tunes he listed, and the reasons why as well. It's much the same criticism as Mike had thrown at other songs through the years where he wasn't involved in the writing process and wouldn't get money from them. In other words, par for the course.
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ďSome people think you have to knock somebody down in order to build yourself up, I donít look at it that way. To the mentality that likes to disparage other people, I say perhaps you should get a life. Itís just wrong thinking in my opinion and I donít mind saying that.Ē - Mike Love

"Every single person who criticized Brian for having She & Him, Kacey Musgraves, Sebu and Nate Ruess guesting on his solo album can now officially go heartily f*** themselves." - Wirestone
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« Reply #55 on: September 13, 2018, 09:08:30 PM »


I'm sitting here in complete disbelief concerning those abysmal, dumb ass cornfed lyrics that Mike Love wrote for "Til I Die". They are an incredible disaster and an affront to Brian's absolute mood inducing moment he shared with the world and his fans. Trite and full of himself as usual, he spoon feeds and lies to the audience about the true meaning of one of Brian's most memorable pieces. Awful, just awful.
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« Reply #56 on: September 13, 2018, 09:25:03 PM »


I'm sitting here in complete disbelief concerning those abysmal, dumb ass cornfed lyrics that Mike Love wrote for "Til I Die". They are an incredible disaster and an affront to Brian's absolute mood inducing moment he shared with the world and his fans. Trite and full of himself as usual, he spoon feeds and lies to the audience about the true meaning of one of Brian's most memorable pieces. Awful, just awful.

Yet at the same time and as awful as those lyrics were AND ARE...that 'poetic' disaster is sadly representative of much of Mike's talents and abilities...post 1965.  It's why he was always insistent on returning to Do It Again...'cause he thinks that it's OK to plagiarize yourself in perpetuity.  I've often said that most composers and lyricists only have so many GREAT songs in 'em.  After that?  It becomes more of a coin toss.  The innate ability to venture forward artistically ceases to flow like it once did.  THAT'S what happened to Mike.  He got stuck in a time tunnel.  He has neither the ability nor the talent to dislodge himself.

To have the temerity to even presume to replace Brian's lyrics with that twaddle is the sign of an ego run totally and solidly amuck.  How awfully glad I am that I didn't step in it.  Shocked
« Last Edit: September 13, 2018, 09:29:49 PM by Lee Marshall » Logged

"Add Some...Music...To Your Day.  I do.  It's the only way to fly.  Well...what was I gonna put here?  An apple a day keeps the doctor away?  Hum me a few bars."   Lee Marshall [2014]

Donald  TRUMP!  ...  Is TOAST.  "What a disaster."  "Overrated?"... ... ..."BIG LEAGUE."  "Lots of people are saying it"  "I will tell you that."   Collusion, Money Laundering, Treason.   B'Bye Dirty Donnie!!!  Adios!!!  Bon Voyage!!!  Toodles!!!  Move yourself...SPANKY!!!  Jail awaits.  It's NO "Witch Hunt". There IS Collusion...and worse.  The Russian Mafia!!  Conspiracies!!  Fraud!!  This racist is goin' down...and soon.  Good Riddance.  And take the kids.
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« Reply #57 on: September 13, 2018, 09:39:35 PM »


If you meet the band backstage, ask Mike if he still thinks he's the Beach Boys 47 years or so after telling that to Rieley.


Only time I've ever spoken to Mike Love backstage was way back on Dec. 30, 1973, when, after the concert, I hopped the upper railing down to the stage and then to the back stage area, looking for Dennis.

Reason I was looking for Dennis -- After the Nov. 16, 1973 concert my friend Juile and I ran into Dennis in the parking lot while he was attempting to fix two flat tires on Audree Wilson's (or maybe it was Mae Rovell's) Lincoln Continental, (Marilyn, Diane, and a blonde who was probably Ginger were also in the car). Juile had a can of fix-a-flat which Dennis used to inflate the second tire. Anyway, when Dennis was thanking us I told him to tell Mike that he should stop singing Jumping Jack Flash during the encore, because it wasn't a Beach Boys song. I later felt like an idiot when I realized I had failed to thank Dennis for his great contributions to Sunflower and tell him that Forever was (and still is) my all time favorite song.

So back to Dec. 30th, I couldn't find Dennis but ran into Mike. I asked him if he knew where Dennis was and he said he didn't, so I asked Mike to tell Dennis that I would love to hear him sing Forever at their concerts.

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« Reply #58 on: September 13, 2018, 09:49:59 PM »


I'm sitting here in complete disbelief concerning those abysmal, dumb ass cornfed lyrics that Mike Love wrote for "Til I Die". They are an incredible disaster and an affront to Brian's absolute mood inducing moment he shared with the world and his fans. Trite and full of himself as usual, he spoon feeds and lies to the audience about the true meaning of one of Brian's most memorable pieces. Awful, just awful.


I'm sitting here in complete disbelief concerning those abysmal, dumb ass cornfed lyrics that Mike Love wrote for "Til I Die". They are an incredible disaster and an affront to Brian's absolute mood inducing moment he shared with the world and his fans. Trite and full of himself as usual, he spoon feeds and lies to the audience about the true meaning of one of Brian's most memorable pieces. Awful, just awful.

Yet at the same time and as awful as those lyrics were AND ARE...that 'poetic' disaster is sadly representative of much of Mike's talents and abilities...post 1965.  It's why he was always insistent on returning to Do It Again...'cause he thinks that it's OK to plagiarize yourself in perpetuity.  I've often said that most composers and lyricists only have so many GREAT songs in 'em.  After that?  It becomes more of a coin toss.  The innate ability to venture forward artistically ceases to flow like it once did.  THAT'S what happened to Mike.  He got stuck in a time tunnel.  He has neither the ability nor the talent to dislodge himself.

To have the temerity to even presume to replace Brian's lyrics with that twaddle is the sign of an ego run totally and solidly amuck.  How awfully glad I am that I didn't step in it.  Shocked



Gentlemen!! OK, I need to stop laughing so I can type this. -- I thought it would be obvious that those lyrics were a satire and that Mike Love was not responsible for writing them, nor have they ever been performed by anyone in concert.


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« Reply #59 on: September 13, 2018, 09:50:59 PM »

I would say that Rieley was onto something big. For one, getting the Wilsons in the forefront of the band's original music was *huge* and needed. There was so much they could offer, but as seen in Rieley's comments, there was also some resistance from within the band.

Brian seems anything but in the forefront of the band's music during the Rieley era. I don't blame Jack. I'm sure he would have liked Brian to contribute more, but all Brian really contributed to the cause was ADITLOAT, Funky Pretty, and Mt Vernon (which ironically would have included oldies if Brian had completed his vision). I just find it a little weird when I read about Jack and his support of the Wilsons (which I don't doubt) and then listen to the records and hear less Brian and Dennis.

If you read through Jack's posts at the link above, he addresses some of this specifically. See what he said about Student Demonstration Time making it onto the album and how Carl wanted to sequence it.

Okay, I reread Jack's posts. My position hasn't changed. Jack's recollection of SDT is that of Mike buying in. He also talks of Bruce asking him to write lyrics for 'Disney Girls'. We also know that Al and Mike contributed 'Don't Go Near The Water' (which I didn't notice Jack mention) and that Al's 'Lookin' At Tomorrow' (while pre-dating Jack) aligned with Jack's vision for the group. It sounds like everyone is putting in the effort to cooperate. The only outlier is 'Feet' which I wouldn't be surprised if Brian also wanted released. The fact that they apparently weren't all fans of each others songs is of little importance. What matters is what made it to record and what was performed live. So, I'm more interested in 'Burlesque'. According to Jack's posts that's the only song Mike killed. The only remarks on sequencing I noticed were that Jack and Carl were considering putting "all" of the Wilsons songs on one side but ultimately decided against it. This must have been after Dennis' songs were pulled though, because how could they all have fit? I doubt Brian, Carl, Dennis, and Jack were all in agreement when that went down, which is otherwise how Jack's recollections are framed. It wasn't weird to you how he talked about 'San Miguel'? How Brian, Carl, and Jack "supported" Dennis' decision to can it. Jack seems quite dismissive of the Sunflower-era tunes. Anyway, I still don't hear the Wilsons thrusted into the forefront during the Rieley years. I hear more Carl, less Brian and Dennis, and about the same amount of Mike, Al, and Bruce (until he leaves/is fired). The Wilsons weren't exactly no-shows on prior records. To me, Jack's major influences on the group were on subject matter and live performance.
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« Reply #60 on: September 13, 2018, 10:04:53 PM »

I have to say that this is one of the most interesting threads this board has had in years.
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« Reply #61 on: September 13, 2018, 10:11:21 PM »


I'm sitting here in complete disbelief concerning those abysmal, dumb ass cornfed lyrics that Mike Love wrote for "Til I Die". They are an incredible disaster and an affront to Brian's absolute mood inducing moment he shared with the world and his fans. Trite and full of himself as usual, he spoon feeds and lies to the audience about the true meaning of one of Brian's most memorable pieces. Awful, just awful.


I'm sitting here in complete disbelief concerning those abysmal, dumb ass cornfed lyrics that Mike Love wrote for "Til I Die". They are an incredible disaster and an affront to Brian's absolute mood inducing moment he shared with the world and his fans. Trite and full of himself as usual, he spoon feeds and lies to the audience about the true meaning of one of Brian's most memorable pieces. Awful, just awful.

Yet at the same time and as awful as those lyrics were AND ARE...that 'poetic' disaster is sadly representative of much of Mike's talents and abilities...post 1965.  It's why he was always insistent on returning to Do It Again...'cause he thinks that it's OK to plagiarize yourself in perpetuity.  I've often said that most composers and lyricists only have so many GREAT songs in 'em.  After that?  It becomes more of a coin toss.  The innate ability to venture forward artistically ceases to flow like it once did.  THAT'S what happened to Mike.  He got stuck in a time tunnel.  He has neither the ability nor the talent to dislodge himself.

To have the temerity to even presume to replace Brian's lyrics with that twaddle is the sign of an ego run totally and solidly amuck.  How awfully glad I am that I didn't step in it.  Shocked



Gentlemen!! OK, I need to stop laughing so I can type this. -- I thought it would be obvious that those lyrics were a satire and that Mike Love was not responsible for writing them, nor have they ever been performed by anyone in concert.




1. It was satire, and it was legit funny  LOL

2. It's also crazy how Mike has done so many bad, cringy lyrics like these that it wouldn't be *that* much of a stretch for these to have been real.

3. From what I've heard, the actual Mike "uplifting" lyrics for "'Til I Die" are quite lame in terms of sh*tting on Brian's vision, and the actual point of the song - which touches so many people - would've been ruined. Thank GAWD Mike's agenda didn't go through. I would love to know the details of how that went down.

4. If Mike offered in some interview at some point a story about how he tried to steer this song into a more "happy" place, but bravely admitted that he later realized how wrong he was after hearing the masterpiece it turned out to be (not to mention the way the song has touched so many people in its non-altered form), I think many fans would cut Mike some slack (this applies to a lot of other stuff too). This is just the tip of the iceberg of things Mike seemingly wants the public to not know and brush under the rug (so that he can keep up his narrative of denial that he didn't consistently sh*t on his cousin's artistic vision), and it seems to be *just* the type of thing that Jack was keenly aware of during Jack's brief tenure.

Jack. Knew. What. Was. Up. His famous quote has proven him to be the Nostrodamus of The Beach Boys world.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2018, 10:16:29 PM by CenturyDeprived » Logged
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« Reply #62 on: September 14, 2018, 01:28:40 AM »

Gentlemen!! OK, I need to stop laughing so I can type this. -- I thought it would be obvious that those lyrics were a satire and that Mike Love was not responsible for writing them, nor have they ever been performed by anyone in concert.

Oh 'gawd' NO!!!  There's an even worse version out there?  LOLShockedRoll Eyes  sh*t!!! Thud
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"Add Some...Music...To Your Day.  I do.  It's the only way to fly.  Well...what was I gonna put here?  An apple a day keeps the doctor away?  Hum me a few bars."   Lee Marshall [2014]

Donald  TRUMP!  ...  Is TOAST.  "What a disaster."  "Overrated?"... ... ..."BIG LEAGUE."  "Lots of people are saying it"  "I will tell you that."   Collusion, Money Laundering, Treason.   B'Bye Dirty Donnie!!!  Adios!!!  Bon Voyage!!!  Toodles!!!  Move yourself...SPANKY!!!  Jail awaits.  It's NO "Witch Hunt". There IS Collusion...and worse.  The Russian Mafia!!  Conspiracies!!  Fraud!!  This racist is goin' down...and soon.  Good Riddance.  And take the kids.
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« Reply #63 on: September 14, 2018, 07:50:32 AM »


I'm sitting here in complete disbelief concerning those abysmal, dumb ass cornfed lyrics that Mike Love wrote for "Til I Die". They are an incredible disaster and an affront to Brian's absolute mood inducing moment he shared with the world and his fans. Trite and full of himself as usual, he spoon feeds and lies to the audience about the true meaning of one of Brian's most memorable pieces. Awful, just awful.


I'm sitting here in complete disbelief concerning those abysmal, dumb ass cornfed lyrics that Mike Love wrote for "Til I Die". They are an incredible disaster and an affront to Brian's absolute mood inducing moment he shared with the world and his fans. Trite and full of himself as usual, he spoon feeds and lies to the audience about the true meaning of one of Brian's most memorable pieces. Awful, just awful.

Yet at the same time and as awful as those lyrics were AND ARE...that 'poetic' disaster is sadly representative of much of Mike's talents and abilities...post 1965.  It's why he was always insistent on returning to Do It Again...'cause he thinks that it's OK to plagiarize yourself in perpetuity.  I've often said that most composers and lyricists only have so many GREAT songs in 'em.  After that?  It becomes more of a coin toss.  The innate ability to venture forward artistically ceases to flow like it once did.  THAT'S what happened to Mike.  He got stuck in a time tunnel.  He has neither the ability nor the talent to dislodge himself.

To have the temerity to even presume to replace Brian's lyrics with that twaddle is the sign of an ego run totally and solidly amuck.  How awfully glad I am that I didn't step in it.  Shocked



Gentlemen!! OK, I need to stop laughing so I can type this. -- I thought it would be obvious that those lyrics were a satire and that Mike Love was not responsible for writing them, nor have they ever been performed by anyone in concert.




Is that a challenge? I think covering Til I Die with those lyrics would be a hoot, actually.
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« Reply #64 on: September 14, 2018, 08:52:40 AM »

New Surfsiders style? Wink
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And production aside, Iíd so much rather hear a 14 year old David Marks shred some guitar on Chug-a-lug than hear a 51 year old Mike Love sing about bangin some chick in a swimming pool.-rab2591
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« Reply #65 on: September 14, 2018, 09:07:22 AM »

Billy has to make it for the next Fear2Stop album.  Grin He has to listen to me, because I'm his manager.  Wink
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« Reply #66 on: September 14, 2018, 09:14:33 AM »

I would say that Rieley was onto something big. For one, getting the Wilsons in the forefront of the band's original music was *huge* and needed. There was so much they could offer, but as seen in Rieley's comments, there was also some resistance from within the band.

Brian seems anything but in the forefront of the band's music during the Rieley era. I don't blame Jack. I'm sure he would have liked Brian to contribute more, but all Brian really contributed to the cause was ADITLOAT, Funky Pretty, and Mt Vernon (which ironically would have included oldies if Brian had completed his vision). I just find it a little weird when I read about Jack and his support of the Wilsons (which I don't doubt) and then listen to the records and hear less Brian and Dennis.

If you read through Jack's posts at the link above, he addresses some of this specifically. See what he said about Student Demonstration Time making it onto the album and how Carl wanted to sequence it.

Okay, I reread Jack's posts. My position hasn't changed. Jack's recollection of SDT is that of Mike buying in. He also talks of Bruce asking him to write lyrics for 'Disney Girls'. We also know that Al and Mike contributed 'Don't Go Near The Water' (which I didn't notice Jack mention) and that Al's 'Lookin' At Tomorrow' (while pre-dating Jack) aligned with Jack's vision for the group. It sounds like everyone is putting in the effort to cooperate. The only outlier is 'Feet' which I wouldn't be surprised if Brian also wanted released. The fact that they apparently weren't all fans of each others songs is of little importance. What matters is what made it to record and what was performed live. So, I'm more interested in 'Burlesque'. According to Jack's posts that's the only song Mike killed. The only remarks on sequencing I noticed were that Jack and Carl were considering putting "all" of the Wilsons songs on one side but ultimately decided against it. This must have been after Dennis' songs were pulled though, because how could they all have fit? I doubt Brian, Carl, Dennis, and Jack were all in agreement when that went down, which is otherwise how Jack's recollections are framed. It wasn't weird to you how he talked about 'San Miguel'? How Brian, Carl, and Jack "supported" Dennis' decision to can it. Jack seems quite dismissive of the Sunflower-era tunes. Anyway, I still don't hear the Wilsons thrusted into the forefront during the Rieley years. I hear more Carl, less Brian and Dennis, and about the same amount of Mike, Al, and Bruce (until he leaves/is fired). The Wilsons weren't exactly no-shows on prior records. To me, Jack's major influences on the group were on subject matter and live performance.


Some key points in Jack's comments are how he wanted to get Carl writing more, and in general get more material flowing from Carl and Dennis. It basically reads between the lines that Brian was obviously not 100% into it and his contributions would be what they were, I don't think there was an expectation that Brian would be writing like it was 1965 again, or anything close. But that element of getting Carl and Dennis contributing more was the element which Jack wanted to push even more, getting original material flowing from the Wilson brothers. He saw there was something there with Carl that wasn't being tapped into, obviously people heard what Dennis could do but maybe the thought was let's get more from him, and if Brian got the inspiration or wanted to lay down some ideas to start something, let's tap into that.

It's also telling to hear what material and ideas the Mike-Al-Bruce side were offering, and how those tunes were not what Jack acting in his capacity thought would be moving the band forward into the kind of band he and obviously several Wilsons thought the band could be.

The politics and infighting are another aspect which did affect the process, how could it not? One of Jack's better moves was to get Carl some more "official" leadership status for the group, particularly the live band, even though he had been acting as leader on stage for years. That was big, as was trying to get Carl's writing to develop. But again based on comments, when you had Mike-Bruce-Al talking sh*t about their bandmates and having what I'm sure were some pretty heated meetings, some of this potential was being squashed instead of encouraged. I think that's why both Carl and Dennis were happy to have someone on their side like Jack.

And Carl, musically acting as "leader"? It's a no-brainer. He was already doing it - Because I'd say he was the most qualified and already had experience. But maybe he needed support from a manager type like Jack in light of Mike's comments to Jack that *he* was the Beach Boys.

All of that inner politics BS has implications on everything. When you have Mike declaring he is the Beach Boys, you can see where the bad vibes would come in. It was good Jack got Carl, Dennis, and Brian to have more of a voice in the process, specifically Carl and Dennis to get writing more for the group.

But it takes time to get the plan rolling, again as mentioned it didn't (and doesn't) happen overnight and some of us think the lost potential when the whole thing got cut short was one of the sad parts of the story.
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ďSome people think you have to knock somebody down in order to build yourself up, I donít look at it that way. To the mentality that likes to disparage other people, I say perhaps you should get a life. Itís just wrong thinking in my opinion and I donít mind saying that.Ē - Mike Love

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« Reply #67 on: September 14, 2018, 09:27:26 AM »


Some key points in Jack's comments are how he wanted to get Carl writing more, and in general get more material flowing from Carl and Dennis. It basically reads between the lines that Brian was obviously not 100% into it and his contributions would be what they were, I don't think there was an expectation that Brian would be writing like it was 1965 again, or anything close. But that element of getting Carl and Dennis contributing more was the element which Jack wanted to push even more, getting original material flowing from the Wilson brothers. He saw there was something there with Carl that wasn't being tapped into, obviously people heard what Dennis could do but maybe the thought was let's get more from him, and if Brian got the inspiration or wanted to lay down some ideas to start something, let's tap into that.


I hate to agree with gf2002 again--I've got a reputation to uphold (kidding!)--but this is spot on. I don't think you could fault Rieley for not upping Brian's participation because everyone, before and after him wanted to up Brian's participation. But Brian was going to offer what he could or would, and that's all.

As for the volume of Carl's and Dennis's input, it's not just the number of songs but maybe their prominence. Carl suddenly wasn't just one of four named co-writers, but the sole Beach Boy (with Rieley on lyrics) for prominent, different kinds of music, songs that I'd imagine were seen as centerpieces of sorts at the time, even if not singles. Dennis, well, yes, he wasn't represented on Surf's Up, but that's not on Rieley, it's on Dennis.

The "siding with Wilsons" strategy wasn't just about song counts, but about image, vibe, general direction. At least that's how I read it (and hear it).

It's a shame that Al was seen as so firmly in the Love camp in those days, because I think musically he fit right in with what the Wilsons were doing at times. His folk music especially fit in, and his quirky sense of humor I think also worked with Brian, which is why things like Feet and Loop de Loop might not have floated Rieley's boat, but Brian seems to have dug them. (Obviously musically he was also just essential, vocally speaking, I mean.) I understand that if he was sober, being around the Wilsons in the early 70s wouldn't have been an appealing situation. But if only he would have gotten through that (or maybe if they'd have held their sh*t together a bit more, which would have been a healthy thing regardless), the real core of the band could theoretically have withstood any kind of Love or Johnston (before he left) pressures.
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« Reply #68 on: September 14, 2018, 11:04:44 AM »


Some key points in Jack's comments are how he wanted to get Carl writing more, and in general get more material flowing from Carl and Dennis. It basically reads between the lines that Brian was obviously not 100% into it and his contributions would be what they were, I don't think there was an expectation that Brian would be writing like it was 1965 again, or anything close. But that element of getting Carl and Dennis contributing more was the element which Jack wanted to push even more, getting original material flowing from the Wilson brothers. He saw there was something there with Carl that wasn't being tapped into, obviously people heard what Dennis could do but maybe the thought was let's get more from him, and if Brian got the inspiration or wanted to lay down some ideas to start something, let's tap into that.


I hate to agree with gf2002 again--I've got a reputation to uphold (kidding!)--but this is spot on. I don't think you could fault Rieley for not upping Brian's participation because everyone, before and after him wanted to up Brian's participation. But Brian was going to offer what he could or would, and that's all.

As for the volume of Carl's and Dennis's input, it's not just the number of songs but maybe their prominence. Carl suddenly wasn't just one of four named co-writers, but the sole Beach Boy (with Rieley on lyrics) for prominent, different kinds of music, songs that I'd imagine were seen as centerpieces of sorts at the time, even if not singles. Dennis, well, yes, he wasn't represented on Surf's Up, but that's not on Rieley, it's on Dennis.

The "siding with Wilsons" strategy wasn't just about song counts, but about image, vibe, general direction. At least that's how I read it (and hear it).

It's a shame that Al was seen as so firmly in the Love camp in those days, because I think musically he fit right in with what the Wilsons were doing at times. His folk music especially fit in, and his quirky sense of humor I think also worked with Brian, which is why things like Feet and Loop de Loop might not have floated Rieley's boat, but Brian seems to have dug them. (Obviously musically he was also just essential, vocally speaking, I mean.) I understand that if he was sober, being around the Wilsons in the early 70s wouldn't have been an appealing situation. But if only he would have gotten through that (or maybe if they'd have held their sh*t together a bit more, which would have been a healthy thing regardless), the real core of the band could theoretically have withstood any kind of Love or Johnston (before he left) pressures.


Focusing on the drugs in terms of both "sides" may be a factor, but it's one and perhaps a smaller one out of several. Yes, it was a factor with Al. But at the same time, there was a big power grab underlying everything with this band from the music, to finance, to management. That power struggle played out perhaps most obviously in the 1970's, but I'd go as far as to suggest it was the main issue hung like an albatross around the collective band's neck for the next decades to come, up to the present.

I'm just speculating that Al could have felt caught in the middle. If his objections to the Wilson brothers' lifestyles were strong enough, that could be a factor. But Al had to make a choice on where to place his vote or loyalty, so to speak, and he put it with Mike. Was he 100% behind what Mike was doing in terms of the organization in the Rieley era? Who knows. But he chose sides.

What is staring all of us in the face is how the rest of the 70's played out after Rieley's departure. Look who ended up taking over control of the band, in terms of business, management, etc. Mike Love's brothers. Look who was assigned to get Brian healthy before Landy part 1 - Mike's brothers and Rocky. Look who was making the decisions, especially with marketing the band - Mike's brothers. "Brian's Back" - Mike's brother's plan.

There is a pattern here if you look through the facts. You have Mike telling Rieley "I am the Beach Boys". Take that as a main idea of this. Then look at the way managers and bandmates were handled throughout the 70's. Nick Grillo was fired and accused of wrongdoing. Rieley was shown the door and accused of wrongdoing. Mike's own brother was fired and brought up on charges of wrongdoing. To the best of my knowledge, none of these charges which were fuel to get rid of these people were ever proven. In the case of Mike's brother, the charges were dismissed by a court and he was exonerated of the charges. Rieley said he brought legal action against NME for a report they published about him, and according to Jack, that was retracted with a penalty.

Then there is Al - Look what happened to him in the late 80's, early 90's. Al was vocally opposing Mike's direction for the stage act among other things, and Mike essentially shitcanned him. Dennis at one point in the 70's was shown the door. At one of the band's lowest points, Carl went off to do his own solo project and play shows.

Look for the common thread in so much of this, and yes up to even C50, and you'll see there has been a power play if not outright power grab going on for decades in terms of who is in control of the band. It felt in the 70's that when Mike felt his status diminishing a bit in terms of power, in the corporate sense, he got his brothers installed as the leadership of the band. That's pure corporate power-grab, right there.

The reason why Rieley irks people who are more in Mike's camp to this day is that Rieley got the Wilsons together and got them, specifically Carl, the clout within the organization to say "no" to Mike. And they did. Which according to Jack is how Bruce exited. The vote was then 3 (Wilsons) versus 2 (Love-Jardine). The Wilsons had more say in the direction of the band, ostensibly.

But as soon as Mike's brothers were put in place, there was the power pendulum swinging again in Mike's direction. Let no one be misled that there was a reason for bringing in Landy that wasn't involving getting Brian "healthy" enough to contribute songs to the band. And to be in place for label and financial reasons, no matter his interest or actual involvement. It turned into a truly bizarre situation where there was a hired goon standing behind Brian at his piano holding a baseball bat to "inspire" Brian to churn out new songs. Where did this come from? Just look at what was on the table.

So Al chose sides, and the side he chose ended up getting him fired from his own band 20 years or so later.

We can talk about the music, but consider the corporate power struggle and power grabs that were happening behind the scenes as everything else was happening publicly, and it helps give a perspective on what was really going on. For any of Jack Rieley's flaws and foibles, the guy didn't stand a chance as soon as he tried to move the Wilsons into a position of greater power and control within the organization. What happened in subsequent years bears that out.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2018, 11:21:04 AM by guitarfool2002 » Logged

ďSome people think you have to knock somebody down in order to build yourself up, I donít look at it that way. To the mentality that likes to disparage other people, I say perhaps you should get a life. Itís just wrong thinking in my opinion and I donít mind saying that.Ē - Mike Love

"Every single person who criticized Brian for having She & Him, Kacey Musgraves, Sebu and Nate Ruess guesting on his solo album can now officially go heartily f*** themselves." - Wirestone
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« Reply #69 on: September 14, 2018, 11:12:51 AM »

Oh great, you quoted me to immortalize my typo. Thanks a lot.  Grin
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« Reply #70 on: September 14, 2018, 11:27:34 AM »

Oh great, you quoted me to immortalize my typo. Thanks a lot.  Grin

 LOL

I fixed it.  Wink

I want to add to that last post how I didn't deliberately leave out James Guercio, in terms of the 70's history of the BB's. It was more to cover than I had time at the moment.

But I will say there is a revealing interview with Dennis from 1976 available here: http://justbackdated.blogspot.com/2014/12/the-beach-boys-dennis-wilson-interview.html

...where Dennis talks about the band's heavy touring *before* Endless Summer contributing to what would be a resurgence of sorts. It was, I'd suggest, Jack's plan playing out where the band would play really solid shows and build (or rebuild) an audience as a result. And at least according to Dennis in '76, that's what played out. The live shows were drawing more and more people, they were playing damn fine live shows, and the buzz kept building.

I just wanted to mention Guercio because he did for a time take over in whatever capacity we want to call it, and it did help the band's status and success. I did not mean to leave that out purposely. However, the power struggles were still going on and the Love family had quite a large stake in the game.
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ďSome people think you have to knock somebody down in order to build yourself up, I donít look at it that way. To the mentality that likes to disparage other people, I say perhaps you should get a life. Itís just wrong thinking in my opinion and I donít mind saying that.Ē - Mike Love

"Every single person who criticized Brian for having She & Him, Kacey Musgraves, Sebu and Nate Ruess guesting on his solo album can now officially go heartily f*** themselves." - Wirestone
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« Reply #71 on: September 14, 2018, 12:37:02 PM »

Billy has to make it for the next Fear2Stop album.  Grin He has to listen to me, because I'm his manager.  Wink

LOL
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« Reply #72 on: September 14, 2018, 01:03:50 PM »

As far as Leeís and OSDís recollections of the shows from the period vs. the recollections of Custom Machine and others, isnít it possible that the Boysí then-current music went over better in markets where there was exposure for their recent music? If 8 remember an older OSD post, I seem to recall him telling a great story about being at the comeback show at Carnegie Hall. Remember that Pete Fornatale was a champion of The Beach Boys who continued to play their music on FM radio. Maybe the NYC audience had a better idea of what to expect from the 1971 Beach Boys than audiences in other towns where they didnít get FM airplay.
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« Reply #73 on: September 14, 2018, 01:12:24 PM »

Not only does that seem possible, but very plausible.
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« Reply #74 on: September 14, 2018, 01:33:52 PM »

Billy has to make it for the next Fear2Stop album.  Grin He has to listen to me, because I'm his manager.  Wink

LOL
B-side will be "long tall texan" with Billy yodeling! Wink
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