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637861 Posts in 25496 Topics by 3625 Members - Latest Member: spgass September 22, 2018, 06:29:30 PM
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Author Topic: Why did BB sidemen after Blondie + Ricki not attain Official Member Status too?  (Read 1121 times)
CenturyDeprived
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« on: July 09, 2018, 06:01:45 PM »

I recently got to wondering: why was it that Blondie and Ricki became official members of the band, but subsequent (and prior) sidemen did not attain that status?

I guess some of the reasons include:

- a very conscious attempt by Carl to make the band sound different, specifically by bringing in those 2 guys who bought a specific sound - in a manner that no other sidemen could/would do
- the Endless Summer bandwagon causing the band to revert to piggybacking off its earlier image, thus not wanting to "confuse" the brand image anymore
- greed, in not wanting any other sidemen to get paid as much, or to eclipse other members in terms of popularity.

Still, it seems a bit surprising to me that sidemen such as Foskett and Stamos, for that matter, never were classified as "official" Beach Boys, in a Blondie and Ricki type manner.
I feel pretty certain that both of those guys would have said yes if they'd been asked, does anyone agree? (Or maybe they were privately asked and declined, for all we know)...
« Last Edit: July 09, 2018, 06:03:12 PM by CenturyDeprived » Logged
John Brode
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« Reply #1 on: July 09, 2018, 06:27:00 PM »

I've always thought it was because Blondie and Rikki regularly contributed in the studio with lead vocals, guitar/moog solos, and wrote a couple songs that the beach boys recorded (along with the list that you mentioned).
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CenturyDeprived
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« Reply #2 on: July 09, 2018, 06:39:39 PM »

I've always thought it was because Blondie and Rikki regularly contributed in the studio with lead vocals, guitar/moog solos, and wrote a couple songs that the beach boys recorded (along with the list that you mentioned).

That's all true, but I feel like they were granted that official status before they had even written any songs with/for the band.   I guess it was very much a conscious effort from the get go, which the band never again considered doing, for (presumably) a number of reasons.
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c-man
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« Reply #3 on: July 09, 2018, 07:07:04 PM »

Blondie and Ricky were made "official" Beach Boys as a very conscious decision to make the band "hipper", both in sound, but especially in image. There's never been any reason for them to make anyone else an "offical" Beach Boy since Bruce joined, even guys like Billy and Jeff, who were pretty much "front line" during their tenures.
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Emdeeh
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« Reply #4 on: July 09, 2018, 07:54:22 PM »

IIRC, Billy was offered membership, but declined.
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Pretty Funky
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« Reply #5 on: July 09, 2018, 09:16:51 PM »

Years ago Bruce said Ed Carter was one of those who turned down the gig when Brian quit, which begs the question, what was the deal offered to him and others subsequently? I do think for most bands it should it relate to them being contributors to the song writing process or sidemen.

Hereís one for thought. Had Keith Moon joined the Beach Boys, would the group have wanted to raise their profile and made him an official member or would he have been a sideman like all the others? I guess if it was to replace Ricky he may have been made official. As an oldies act after that, unlikely, however Moon would have loved it.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2018, 09:32:47 PM by Pretty Funky » Logged
barsone
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« Reply #6 on: July 09, 2018, 09:24:31 PM »

Curious, what year did Al officially become a member of BRI ?
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Pretty Funky
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« Reply #7 on: July 09, 2018, 09:38:30 PM »

1967 when it was formed I guess.

https://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-9th-circuit/1213400.html

In 1961, Al Jardine, Mike Love, Brian Wilson, Carl Wilson, and Dennis Wilson formed The Beach Boys. The band shortly thereafter achieved huge commercial success, producing numerous hit songs and touring to huge audiences throughout the country.   In 1967, the members of the Beach Boys incorporated BRI to hold and administer the intellectual property rights for The Beach Boys. Currently, BRI is equally owned by four shareholders, who are also its directors:  Al Jardine, Mike Love, Brian Wilson, and the estate of Carl Wilson.   BRI is the registered owner of ďThe Beach BoysĒ trademark.


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c-man
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« Reply #8 on: July 10, 2018, 04:31:15 AM »

Curious, what year did Al officially become a member of BRI ?

I've heard 1971 and 1973 (the latter from the Leaf book, IIRC).
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c-man
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« Reply #9 on: July 10, 2018, 04:32:09 AM »

IIRC, Billy was offered membership, but declined.

He'd said that in 1969, the group approached him with the possibility of replacing Bruce.
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HeyJude
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« Reply #10 on: July 10, 2018, 07:16:03 AM »

It's also worth remembering that after 1980 or so, they kind of ceased being a "studio band" that also toured, and became a touring act that occasionally released singles and albums.

Once a band ceases doing a lot of creating of new music, there's little incentive to make someone an "official" member, and indeed "official" status (meaning still non-corporate, like Bruce for instances) wouldn't really mean much of anything once the band isn't recording.

What's the main purpose of adding a new "official" member? I would say, sometimes, that would entail a role in the studio writing and/or singing leads, etc. That's what Blondie and Ricky did during their tenure.

And certainly, by 1997/98 when Carl and Al were gone and the touring band literally shifted to being Mike's solo tour with a paid license to use the "Beach Boys" name solely for touring (*not* for studio recording), there is literally no longer the ability to make anyone an "official" member, as apart from 2012, the band has essentially ceased to exist on that plane.

Thus, we have about three or so candidates for what I'd all "de facto" Beach Boys during some eras of their tenures, namely Billy Hinsche, who was supposedly offered "official" status at some point, and was tapped at least once to sing a lead on a Beach Boys album even if he was later replaced ("Honkin' Down the Highway"), Jeff Foskett, who was one of the few "touring band" backing guys to somewhat regularly accompany the band in the studio during his tenure in the 80s (and even sang some lead vocal bits in 2012), and Matt Jardine who not only had a prominent role in the touring band in the 90s, but was the only "non-official" member to participate in some studio sessions such as the Paley tracks, Stars and Stripes, etc.

There are a few others who had pretty strong ties outside of simply the touring band, including Daryl Dragon, Ed Carter, Bobby Figueroa and others who played on studio sessions (both solo and BB). Even Adrian Baker during his first two stints in 1981-82 and 1990-91/92 ended up doing some studio work.

Perhaps the strangest thing I've seen are some articles in recent years that literally refer to Foskett as an official member of the same status as Bruce, etc.
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feelintheflows
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« Reply #11 on: July 10, 2018, 12:16:37 PM »

Wasnít Scott Mathews offered Dennisís spot and declined?

and honestly I canít see anybody else being The Beach Boys but Brian Wilson, Dennis Wilson, Carl Wilson, Mike Love, Alan Jardine, Bruce Johnston, David Marks, Blondie Chaplin and Ricky Fataar.

Although great musicians and nice guys the rest are supporting musicians. Simple as that.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2018, 12:20:54 PM by feelintheflows » Logged
HeyJude
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« Reply #12 on: July 10, 2018, 01:02:17 PM »

Scott Matthews did some session drumming in the KTSA era in particular. But I'm pretty incredulous about the idea that he was offered Dennis's full spot in the band. He didn't even drum on all of KTSA as I recall. I find it odd they were going to fully fire Dennis Wilson *and* Bobby Figueroa and bring in Matthews as a full creative force in the band. Sounds fishy to me.

I've seen some cases where Matthews's Beach Boys-related resume has been kind of overblown. I can't remember if it's his wiki page or somewhere else where he's given credit for the nearly 20-years-later idea to do a "Pet Sounds" tour because he mentioned it to someone in the band in like 1983 one time or something.
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All Summer Long
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« Reply #13 on: July 10, 2018, 01:47:16 PM »

Scott Matthews did some session drumming in the KTSA era in particular. But I'm pretty incredulous about the idea that he was offered Dennis's full spot in the band. He didn't even drum on all of KTSA as I recall. I find it odd they were going to fully fire Dennis Wilson *and* Bobby Figueroa and bring in Matthews as a full creative force in the band. Sounds fishy to me.

I've seen some cases where Matthews's Beach Boys-related resume has been kind of overblown. I can't remember if it's his wiki page or somewhere else where he's given credit for the nearly 20-years-later idea to do a "Pet Sounds" tour because he mentioned it to someone in the band in like 1983 one time or something.
Wasnít Scott Mathews offered Dennisís spot and declined?

and honestly I canít see anybody else being The Beach Boys but Brian Wilson, Dennis Wilson, Carl Wilson, Mike Love, Alan Jardine, Bruce Johnston, David Marks, Blondie Chaplin and Ricky Fataar.

Although great musicians and nice guys the rest are supporting musicians. Simple as that.

Could it be possible that Mathews was offered the job when Dennis died and his denial was why they turned to Kowalski (with some help from Figueroa)?
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HeyJude
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« Reply #14 on: July 10, 2018, 02:19:27 PM »

Scott Matthews did some session drumming in the KTSA era in particular. But I'm pretty incredulous about the idea that he was offered Dennis's full spot in the band. He didn't even drum on all of KTSA as I recall. I find it odd they were going to fully fire Dennis Wilson *and* Bobby Figueroa and bring in Matthews as a full creative force in the band. Sounds fishy to me.

I've seen some cases where Matthews's Beach Boys-related resume has been kind of overblown. I can't remember if it's his wiki page or somewhere else where he's given credit for the nearly 20-years-later idea to do a "Pet Sounds" tour because he mentioned it to someone in the band in like 1983 one time or something.
Wasnít Scott Mathews offered Dennisís spot and declined?

and honestly I canít see anybody else being The Beach Boys but Brian Wilson, Dennis Wilson, Carl Wilson, Mike Love, Alan Jardine, Bruce Johnston, David Marks, Blondie Chaplin and Ricky Fataar.

Although great musicians and nice guys the rest are supporting musicians. Simple as that.

Could it be possible that Mathews was offered the job when Dennis died and his denial was why they turned to Kowalski (with some help from Figueroa)?

None of that seems to line up with what we know. Kowalski was back in the touring band in 1982, as basically the back-up/understudy for Dennis. They toured with two full drum kits on stage, and Kowalski would back up Dennis on drums when Dennis was present, and then of course drummed on his own when Dennis wasn't present.

Kowalski came back as the backup drummer when Bobby Figueroa had to leave for a time.

Scott Matthews never toured with the Beach Boys; he was a studio guy. By 1983, the band was essentially mostly just a touring act. It makes even less sense that Matthews got an offer in 1983/84 after Dennis's death. All they needed was a drummer for live shows, and Kowalski had already been doing it on his own in the months leading up to Dennis's death. By 1984 Bobby Figueroa was back and he and Kowalski switched off on drums/percussion for another 3-4 years or so before Kowalski took over full time.

It's not even out of reverence for Dennis or an assumption for reverence for Dennis on the part of the other band members that leads me to believe that an actual offer for "full" band membership to Matthews in 1980 or 84 was totally antithetical to how the band operated at the time.

You can see as time went on in the 80s and 90s that they moved away from making other members "official" full-fledged members, and were happy to just have any guys on stage as hired guns (including Bruce himself). If they weren't offering "full" membership to Hinsche in the 70s or Foskett in the 80s, I don't buy that they'd offer full membership to one of *many* session drummers used in that mid-late 70s time frame, one that was *less* involved in the studio than even other "sidemen" had been over the years. They weren't even co-writing stuff with Matthews as they did with Altbach. I'd argue guys like Hinsche, Foskett, and even Adrian Baker were as prominent if not more so in the studio than Matthews ever was.

I can't say anything for certain obviously, and the BBs were and are weird enough that I wouldn't find it too far fetched that some random member off-handedly suggested to Matthews that he join full-time. I mean, read in the Stebbins/Marks book how weird many of the guys in the band got about considering adding David Marks back to the band in 1971. Marks describes Bruce being weird, Carl also being kind of weird, and the whole thing seemed kind of passive-aggressive and ramshackle. And even in *that* case, I'm not sure they were even offering Marks a truly *full-fledged* membership in the band. It sounds like they wanted to just have him play bass in the touring band and possibly slowly ease him into more or a role in the band.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2018, 02:21:02 PM by HeyJude » Logged

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« Reply #15 on: July 10, 2018, 03:43:14 PM »

What was the deal with Daryl Dragon? He was in a couple of videos and footage around 1972/73 the Carl/passions era
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All Summer Long
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« Reply #16 on: July 10, 2018, 04:12:23 PM »

Scott Matthews did some session drumming in the KTSA era in particular. But I'm pretty incredulous about the idea that he was offered Dennis's full spot in the band. He didn't even drum on all of KTSA as I recall. I find it odd they were going to fully fire Dennis Wilson *and* Bobby Figueroa and bring in Matthews as a full creative force in the band. Sounds fishy to me.

I've seen some cases where Matthews's Beach Boys-related resume has been kind of overblown. I can't remember if it's his wiki page or somewhere else where he's given credit for the nearly 20-years-later idea to do a "Pet Sounds" tour because he mentioned it to someone in the band in like 1983 one time or something.
Wasnít Scott Mathews offered Dennisís spot and declined?

and honestly I canít see anybody else being The Beach Boys but Brian Wilson, Dennis Wilson, Carl Wilson, Mike Love, Alan Jardine, Bruce Johnston, David Marks, Blondie Chaplin and Ricky Fataar.

Although great musicians and nice guys the rest are supporting musicians. Simple as that.

Could it be possible that Mathews was offered the job when Dennis died and his denial was why they turned to Kowalski (with some help from Figueroa)?

None of that seems to line up with what we know. Kowalski was back in the touring band in 1982, as basically the back-up/understudy for Dennis. They toured with two full drum kits on stage, and Kowalski would back up Dennis on drums when Dennis was present, and then of course drummed on his own when Dennis wasn't present.

Kowalski came back as the backup drummer when Bobby Figueroa had to leave for a time.

Scott Matthews never toured with the Beach Boys; he was a studio guy. By 1983, the band was essentially mostly just a touring act. It makes even less sense that Matthews got an offer in 1983/84 after Dennis's death. All they needed was a drummer for live shows, and Kowalski had already been doing it on his own in the months leading up to Dennis's death. By 1984 Bobby Figueroa was back and he and Kowalski switched off on drums/percussion for another 3-4 years or so before Kowalski took over full time.

It's not even out of reverence for Dennis or an assumption for reverence for Dennis on the part of the other band members that leads me to believe that an actual offer for "full" band membership to Matthews in 1980 or 84 was totally antithetical to how the band operated at the time.

You can see as time went on in the 80s and 90s that they moved away from making other members "official" full-fledged members, and were happy to just have any guys on stage as hired guns (including Bruce himself). If they weren't offering "full" membership to Hinsche in the 70s or Foskett in the 80s, I don't buy that they'd offer full membership to one of *many* session drummers used in that mid-late 70s time frame, one that was *less* involved in the studio than even other "sidemen" had been over the years. They weren't even co-writing stuff with Matthews as they did with Altbach. I'd argue guys like Hinsche, Foskett, and even Adrian Baker were as prominent if not more so in the studio than Matthews ever was.

I can't say anything for certain obviously, and the BBs were and are weird enough that I wouldn't find it too far fetched that some random member off-handedly suggested to Matthews that he join full-time. I mean, read in the Stebbins/Marks book how weird many of the guys in the band got about considering adding David Marks back to the band in 1971. Marks describes Bruce being weird, Carl also being kind of weird, and the whole thing seemed kind of passive-aggressive and ramshackle. And even in *that* case, I'm not sure they were even offering Marks a truly *full-fledged* membership in the band. It sounds like they wanted to just have him play bass in the touring band and possibly slowly ease him into more or a role in the band.

I knew Mathews was just a studio guy but was just trying to think of some possible way that his story was correct. Your last idea (one of the BBs saying it off-handedly) makes a lot of sense and probably could have been what happened. I knew about the other history but just thought of a possibility.
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« Reply #17 on: July 11, 2018, 05:48:33 PM »

What was the deal with Daryl Dragon? He was in a couple of videos and footage around 1972/73 the Carl/passions era

I think he said they told him they would've offered to make him an "official" Beach Boy, but he didn't sing.
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