-->
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
April 26, 2018, 12:15:25 AM

Login with username, password and session length
Search:     Advanced search
News: Beach Boys Britain
Home Help Search Calendar Login Register
+  The Smiley Smile Message Board
|-+  Non Smiley Smile Stuff
| |-+  The Sandbox
| | |-+  MLB: Cleveland Name and Logo
Pages: [1]   Go Down
Print
Author Topic: MLB: Cleveland Name and Logo  (Read 189 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Chocolate Shake Man
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 2771


View Profile
« on: April 08, 2018, 08:49:40 AM »

Just saw this video. It's pretty disgraceful how ugly people can get when protecting the colonialist status quo:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GayKDkIcL9A
Logged
wilsonart1
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 184



View Profile
« Reply #1 on: April 08, 2018, 10:18:08 AM »

Ugly, than some! 
Logged
the captain
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 7198


View Profile
« Reply #2 on: April 08, 2018, 11:18:31 AM »

I think it's obvious why the logo can be offensive to people. I would prefer it not be used.

I think the only way for it to stop being used is for the majority of relevant people (Cleveland fans and advertisers, I suppose) to agree that it ought not be used. Otherwise its elimination would just cause a backlash of the big bad minority imposing its will upon the majority.

I think protests in general are confrontational and do at least as much harm as good, if not more. And so they widen the divide between the perspectives, rather than minimize them. The Cleveland fans swearing at the protesters are sad little people, but I can also see how sad little people feel egged on by protesters. It's just not a great tactic, in my opinion.
Logged

Demon-Fighting Genius; Patronizing Twaddler; Argumentative, Sanctimonious Prick; Sensationalist Dullard; and Douche who (occasionally to rarely) puts songs here.

No interest in your assorted grudges and nonsense.
Chocolate Shake Man
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 2771


View Profile
« Reply #3 on: April 08, 2018, 01:35:45 PM »

I think it's obvious why the logo can be offensive to people. I would prefer it not be used.

I think the only way for it to stop being used is for the majority of relevant people (Cleveland fans and advertisers, I suppose) to agree that it ought not be used. Otherwise its elimination would just cause a backlash of the big bad minority imposing its will upon the majority.

I think protests in general are confrontational and do at least as much harm as good, if not more. And so they widen the divide between the perspectives, rather than minimize them. The Cleveland fans swearing at the protesters are sad little people, but I can also see how sad little people feel egged on by protesters. It's just not a great tactic, in my opinion.

I think that some protests can be strategically and tactically bad - I take issue with the strategies of antifa, for example. I do think that protests though can be very effective if they are non-violent. They can communicate information, let others know that there is a community of like-minded individuals and, yes, like in this case, they can point out the absurdity and the inhumanity of the other side. I do think it's a mistake though to only be on the defense. Unfortunately, there is very little you can do to change the status quo that isn't going to bother a lot of people.
Logged
Gettin Hungry
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 82



View Profile
« Reply #4 on: April 09, 2018, 08:31:57 AM »

Just a little perspective from a lifelong (and white) Cleveland MLB fan. I've seen these Native American protesters, and they are generally peaceful. As you can see from the video, they marched and then were contained in traffic barriers. That's been the case for a few years now. The pro-Chief Wahoo fans shown are despicable. I understand the nostalgic connection to the name and logo, but these people are so disgustingly racist.

I was very attached to Chief Wahoo because it reminded me of going to the home opener with my dad every year. However, I did some research a few years ago into the common arguments I always heard in support of the logo and name, and now I no longer wear Chief Wahoo and have more recently come to object to the name of the team. I prefer the Block C and support retiring the logo and changing the name. Here's why:

The biggest thing I always heard was that the team was named in honor of Louis Sockalexis, the first Native American to play in Major League Baseball. But history will tell you that this "honor" was retroactively applied. The team name was changed from "Naps," ironically actually honoring a player by using his name for the team, to "Indians" in 1915. First of all, this was the height of Jim Crow America. Honoring minorities wasn't really a thing back then. This was also only 25 years after Wounded Knee. Native Americans were mostly associated with scalping and general savagery.

The truth is that the sportswriters of the era named the team Indians as a tribute to the Boston Braves, who in 1914 had completed a miraculous worst-to-first run to win that year's World Series. The only reference to "honoring" Sockalexis was the good fun they had making racist comments when he was on the Cleveland Spiders from 1897 to 1899. That's right, Sockalexis played only three seasons with Cleveland and had fewer than 100 at-bats. Granted, he was great in 1897, for about three months. Is that really worthy of honor? This would be like naming the team after "Super" Joe Charboneau today because of his Rookie-of-the-Year season in 1980.

And if Sockalexis' short career was worthy of honor, why not name the team more specifically after him, as they did with Napoleon LaJoie when they were the "Naps" from 1903 to 1914? One of Sockalexis' nicknames was "The Deerfoot of the Diamond." Wouldn't something like "Cleveland Deerfoots" be a more honorable way to pay tribute to Sockalexis than the generic term "Indians"?

This article does a good job going through the history of the team name: http://joeposnanski.com/cleveland-indians-the-name/

As for Chief Wahoo, I always hear people say, "It's not offensive. It's just a cartoon." But the people who say that are always white, or they claim some ancestral tie to being Native American. Or they throw out the classic "My best friend is Native American, and he has no problem with it"-type argument. We don't have a large Native American population in Ohio, and there are no reservation lands here, so obviously these protest groups are always small. So, yes, there appears to be only a small minority of people who are offended by the logo. But, isn't that the definition of oppression? Oh, it's just the minorities complaining, so who cares?

This article does a good job explaining how Chief Wahoo is a akin to the racist Sambo caricatures: https://www.clevescene.com/cleveland/the-curse-of-chief-wahoo/Content?oid=2954423

The Cleveland Indians agreed to remove Chief Wahoo from uniforms starting in 2019. This was his last home opener, so it seemed the pro-logo fans were already riled up, but that doesn't excuse their terrible behavior. I love baseball, and I love my home team, but I also try to respect other people's heritage. The logo is a racist caricature. The name is an outdated term for a race of people. I don't think either are an appropriate way to honor anyone.
Logged
Chocolate Shake Man
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 2771


View Profile
« Reply #5 on: April 09, 2018, 08:50:19 AM »

What a great response! Thank you for that and for the information.
Logged
the captain
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 7198


View Profile
« Reply #6 on: April 09, 2018, 04:13:32 PM »

Seconded. Great post. I--neither a Clevelander nor a baseball fan--learned a lot.
Logged

Demon-Fighting Genius; Patronizing Twaddler; Argumentative, Sanctimonious Prick; Sensationalist Dullard; and Douche who (occasionally to rarely) puts songs here.

No interest in your assorted grudges and nonsense.
Pages: [1]   Go Up
Print
Jump to:  

Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines
Page created in 0.893 seconds with 21 queries.