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Author Topic: Dean Torrence influence on Brian Wilson  (Read 45779 times)
♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇
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« Reply #175 on: March 05, 2018, 05:08:57 PM »

Jesus. I’m at work, think I’m going to enjoy a well earned lunch and I see this crap.

Both are getting at least a 7 day time out. Nothing personal, I like both of you, but a line’s been crossed. Final length of time away from board will be determined once I have had some time to really sort this out. All I know is this has gone too far.

I think I’m friends with both of you on Facebook... message me later and we can talk about this further.

Or email me at fear2stop@yahoo.com
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« Reply #176 on: March 05, 2018, 05:24:03 PM »

The best commentary from Brian Wilson comes from the actual era in question:

Jan Berry: “The chord changes . . .”

Brian Wilson: “It sounds great.”

Jan: “The chord changes are sophisticated.”

Brian: “Ya know, the bitchenest part of the whole song is that last note . . . ”

Jan: “Huh?”

Brian:Whaaaaahh!! It’s so bright! Everything comes out . . . ”

Jan: “See, I told ya.”

Brian: “I got tears in my eyes the first time I heard it.”

Jan: “I told ya you’d like it.”

Brian: “If you could get a song to sound like that all the way through . . . That would be killer.”

Brian: “It’s a fat son of a bitch.”

Jan: “[To engineer Bones Howe] An exact dual there?”

Bones Howe: “Uh-huh. As even as I can . . .”

Brian: “[To Jan] That ‘Dead Man’s Curve.’ You changed it . . . It sounds good on the radio.”

Brian: [refering to "Ride the Wild Surf"] “But fuckin’ . . . God, the lyrics! The idea behind the whole thing is so good, ya know?”


Jan Berry and Brian Wilson
Discussing the arrangement while doubling the lead vocal for "Ride the Wild Surf"
United Recording, Studio B
February 16, 1964

Dialog excerpt
« Last Edit: March 06, 2018, 03:32:46 AM by Mark A. Moore » Logged

♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇
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« Reply #177 on: March 05, 2018, 07:01:03 PM »

My apologies  by the way I came off in my post. I'm checking the board at work in between calls and responded in a way that, although wasn't my intention, came off in a a manner completely different from how I intended it to be. I should've waited until I got home (probably duplicating my mistake with this post) but I'm trying to handle business here too and didn't want anyone to think I was ignoring their concerns

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« Reply #178 on: March 05, 2018, 07:06:32 PM »

I love that exchange between Brian and Jan, Mark. The first time I read it in your book, I could practically hear their voices! What's the status of the Jan Berry bio?
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« Reply #179 on: March 05, 2018, 07:17:55 PM »

Agreed Nate, kinda bittersweet for both of them....
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« Reply #180 on: March 06, 2018, 09:16:21 AM »

I'm not sure what's going down, and it's certainly not up to me as I'm not a mod, but I don't think Howie Edelson should be getting a time out from the board for vociferously defending himself against a particularly personal attack.

As Jon mentioned, Howie posted some brutally honest assessments of Jan & Dean. If someone wants to take anyone to task and debate on that topic, I don't think anybody has a problem with that. I'm sure Howie or Jon (or myself, or anyone else) can more than handle themselves in defending their positions.

What an honest and even scathingly honest assessment of Jan and Dean doesn't warrant is someone then attacking him personally (and by personally I don't mean "your opinion sucks", but rather an attack of a personal nature having nothing to do with the topic of the thread or the board for that matter). Howie responded to that guy with an appropriate level of zeal and pushback.

As anyone will note if they look back at my posts, I rarely jump into this sort of stuff. And I'm certainly *not* a fan of the "don't run off insiders and honored guests!" argument. I've indeed seen "insiders" and "honored guests" post some unfortunate things (some perhaps deserving a ban, some not). But I'm looking at Howie's posts as I would anyone else's, and I don't think he should be given a time out for forcefully defending himself. This just wasn't one of those "both sides are out of line" situations. That Howie had to respond in the manner he did was unfortunate, I don't think anybody wants to see any of this. But his response was justifiable.
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« Reply #181 on: March 06, 2018, 09:39:51 AM »

yeah, Howie gave strong opinions. And I personally think more of Jan  and Dean. But he does not merit a ban for 'self defence'.
The whole debate has apples being compared to oranges .....decades after the fact. At the time, J and D had maybe run their course. They sure faced as challenge of how to proceed.
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« Reply #182 on: March 06, 2018, 09:49:36 AM »

There are definitely interesting things to discuss about J&D. I think their story and the topic is best discussed *not* through the prism of the Beach Boys' story, and certainly not through a discussion of how their music stacks up against each other.

Similarly, the worst books and articles on the topic of, say, Pete Best, are the ones that try to contend he was actually an amazing drummer and as good or better than Ringo. Pete Best has a truly interesting story, but I would never start it by trying to give him too much credit for the Beatles success, etc.

Far from a perfect analogy, I admit.
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« Reply #183 on: March 06, 2018, 10:55:50 AM »

I would like to take this time to apologize to Howie now that I have read the full thread. I wish I had been able to step in sooner before it escalated; as some of you may know, I work long shifts and right now I can monitor the board when it is slow in between customers or on my break/lunches. We were busy yesterday and I had an impulse reaction based on the last several posts. My post was more directed to Tommy Wiseau's last couple of posts, although it may have come across otherwise. That was not my intention. Howie's time out has been lifted.

Now, let's please get back on topic .
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« Reply #184 on: March 06, 2018, 12:47:30 PM »

O.K.  On topic.  How much money...does anyone with true research material available know?...do you think Brian made off of his association with Jan and Dean?  Approximately?  A fair chunk no?  Would he have made anywhere near that amount working in tandem, in any way, with anyone else in the biz?  Jan and Dean must have been fairly good to the bottom line not just for Brian...but also for Roger and Michael.  AND...if you count Barbara Ann...for all of the 'Boys'.  A #2 hit single and a number 6 L.P. [3 in the U.K.] must generate some kind of pocket money.  I wonder how much Dean, even with his lesser degree of talent, made for his entirely nasal falsetto contribution?  There must have been some tit...for tat?

As for the set-to contained here-in?  It wasn't necessary.  Insiders should not be chased away...BUT...  Come on.  There were 2 people dancin'.  1 of them credited for sh*t he didn't do...or say.  Silly.  And bullshit!!!

Now...back to the topic.
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"Add Some...Music...To Your Day.  I do.  It's the only way to fly.  Well...what was I gonna put here?  An apple a day keeps the doctor away?  Hum me a few bars."   Lee Marshall [2014]

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« Reply #185 on: March 06, 2018, 01:08:40 PM »

The evidence strongly indicates, certainly among the collaborations between Brian and Jan, that it was J&D that was benefitting far more than Brian. Both contemporaneously and into the future, Brian had far more success with other collaborators (or no collaborator), while Jan & Dean saw some (most?) of their biggest hits (certainly the most well-known/remembered) come from the BW collaborations.

Sure, if we want to view Jan and Dean's position vis-à-vis Brian to be along the lines of  "Peter and Gordon" to Lennon/McCartney, then I guess Brian could have viewed several J&D tracks as a nice little sideline of a little extra money from songs given away.

I've never viewed Dean's appearance on "Barbara Ann" as something that pushed it near the top of the charts. It was always a little trivia bit DJs could offer on the radio. But if anything, his voice mars the recording.

But in every tangible way (and in my opinion every qualitative aspect), J&D were the beneficiaries of the association on every level with Brian and the BBs.
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« Reply #186 on: March 06, 2018, 01:16:51 PM »

The evidence strongly indicates, certainly among the collaborations between Brian and Jan, that it was J&D that was benefitting far more than Brian. Both contemporaneously and into the future, Brian had far more success with other collaborators (or no collaborator), while Jan & Dean saw some (most?) of their biggest hits (certainly the most well-known/remembered) come from the BW collaborations.

I agree with this H.J...BUT...Brian would have still made some dough...and over many songs and 'secret' appearances...the total would have grown.  There were a number of pretty good success stories achieved here.

Sure, if we want to view Jan and Dean's position vis-à-vis Brian to be along the lines of  "Peter and Gordon" to Lennon/McCartney, then I guess Brian could have viewed several J&D tracks as a nice little sideline of a little extra money from songs given away.

T'was more than the Prter and Gordon 'thing.  What was that 2?  3 songs?  And I don't recall Paul performing on them.

I've never viewed Dean's appearance on "Barbara Ann" as something that pushed it near the top of the charts. It was always a little trivia bit DJs could offer on the radio. But if anything, his voice mars the recording.

Me neither.  But apparently Brian did.  So while I value my opinion greatly...and your's with a degree of frequency...I'm gonna let Brian's decision to go this route and fight for it's release as is to be the actual final say.

But in every tangible way (and in my opinion every qualitative aspect), J&D were the beneficiaries of the association on every level with Brian and the BBs.   

Yup.  True.  All I'm saying is that BRIAN didn't do all that for free and the monies must have amounted to something of worth.  He did keep coming back with/for more.
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"Add Some...Music...To Your Day.  I do.  It's the only way to fly.  Well...what was I gonna put here?  An apple a day keeps the doctor away?  Hum me a few bars."   Lee Marshall [2014]

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« Reply #187 on: March 06, 2018, 02:40:17 PM »

O.K.  On topic.  How much money...does anyone with true research material available know?...do you think Brian made off of his association with Jan and Dean?  Approximately?  A fair chunk no?  Would he have made anywhere near that amount working in tandem, in any way, with anyone else in the biz?  Jan and Dean must have been fairly good to the bottom line not just for Brian...but also for Roger and Michael.  AND...if you count Barbara Ann...for all of the 'Boys'.  A #2 hit single and a number 6 L.P. [3 in the U.K.] must generate some kind of pocket money.  I wonder how much Dean, even with his lesser degree of talent, made for his entirely nasal falsetto contribution?  There must have been some tit...for tat?


I don’t know any numbers for Brian, but here’s some insight:

By the time “Surf City” was released, Jan’s career was governed completely by Screen Gems-Columbia Music, Inc. Jan was a staff employee who ultimately answered to Don Kirshner in New York.

Consequently, every song Jan wrote or co-wrote was automatically published by Screen Gems, who also owned the master recordings. So in choosing to write songs with Jan, Brian forfeited any publishing for his efforts. But he did get a songwriting royalty.

With Brian’s original compositions for Sea of Tunes, he owned both the writer’s share and the publisher’s share. But for his compositions with Jan, Brian only got a writer’s share.

The only exception with regard to J&D was “Sidewalk Surfin’.” Because it used the previously published melody from “Catch a Wave,” Jan was legally forbidden from sharing a writing credit for the lyrics. In other words, his Screen Gems contracts stipulated that he could not have any business connection to outside companies or competitors. Thus the publishing for “Sidewalk Surfin’” went to Sea of Tunes, the original publisher of the melody. And Roger Christian got a writer’s royalty for the lyrics.

Brian’s vocal participation on J&D records was illicit and therefore unpaid—at least officially. Same for Dean’s participation on “Barbara Ann.”

With regard to Dean, he shared half of the Nevins-Kirshner/Screen Gems artist royalty with Jan (50-50). The Screen Gems songwriting contract was 100 percent Jan’s; and the Screen Gems production contract was 100 percent Jan’s.

For shows and appearances, Jan often paid Dean out of his own pocket. Jan also paid commissions to manager Lou Adler out of pocket.

Jan made a lot of personal payments. His canceled checks reveal a “who’s who” of the industry—musicians, singers, engineers, etc. He was notorious for scheduling odd hours in the studio. Consequently, his royalties were docked regularly, but he never cared. It was all about what was best for him, or convenient for his personal timetable. When the engineers worked overtime, he often paid them under the table beyond what they were due through the Union.
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« Reply #188 on: March 06, 2018, 06:30:08 PM »

Thanks, Mark, that's great stuff.

Let's summarize...

Dean really had very little, and perhaps no, influence on Brian's falsetto.

Jan and Dean are not on an equal level with the Beach Boys.  But they certainly had some killer singles, largely thanks to Brian. 

Brian was probably a lot more influenced by Spector and the Four Freshmen (and Gershwin) than he was by Jan.

But Jan does rank just below the aforementioned trio of influences, in terms of Brian's developing his musical chops.

Jan and Dean are not everyone's cup of tea.  But, outside of sites like this one, neither are the Beach Boys.  To each his own.

Not a bad thing...
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« Reply #189 on: March 06, 2018, 06:31:23 PM »

Read my post... then we'll have world peace!
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« Reply #190 on: March 06, 2018, 07:22:01 PM »

I sure as hell did not expect this thread to turn out to be all this...

Glad we have our own opinions. I really respect most of you all on here, and we feel like a little family.  Smiley


However, next time I wanna praise J&D, maybe I'll head over to their message board  LOL LOL LOL
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« Reply #191 on: March 06, 2018, 07:47:22 PM »

Thanks Mark.  From Surf City 'til Batman...I was a fan.  Before and after...not so much.
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"Add Some...Music...To Your Day.  I do.  It's the only way to fly.  Well...what was I gonna put here?  An apple a day keeps the doctor away?  Hum me a few bars."   Lee Marshall [2014]

Donald  TRUMP!  ...  Is TOAST.  "What a disaster."  "Overrated?"... ... ..."BIG LEAGUE."  "Lots of people are saying it"  "I will tell you that."   Collusion, Money Laundering, Treason.   B'Bye Dirty Donnie!!!  Adios!!!  Bon Voyage!!!  Toodles!!!  Move yourself...SPANKY!!!  Jail awaits.  It's NO "Witch Hunt". There IS Collusion...and worse.  The Russian Mafia!!  Conspiracies!!  Fraud!!  This racist is goin' down...and soon.  Good Riddance.  And take the kids.
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« Reply #192 on: March 06, 2018, 08:27:24 PM »

Who is Lee Marshall? Wink
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« Reply #193 on: March 06, 2018, 08:28:32 PM »

Mark, one thing I'm curious about is why Brian wasn't credited on Folk City, given that the melody is largely a rehash of Surf City. Have you addressed that anywhere?
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« Reply #194 on: March 06, 2018, 11:52:16 PM »

Who is Lee Marshall? Wink

Tony the Tiger.
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« Reply #195 on: March 07, 2018, 03:28:06 AM »

Mark, one thing I'm curious about is why Brian wasn't credited on Folk City, given that the melody is largely a rehash of Surf City. Have you addressed that anywhere?

It's an interesting question. "Folk City" was originally a different song called "Fred Fern," but they remade it into "Folk City." The "Two Girls For Every Boy" melody and verse melody are completely different, but the chorus melody is the same as "Surf City," though the backing harmonies in the chorus are vastly different. Jan may have discussed it with Brian. I don't know.

By October 1965 when "Folk City" was recorded, Jan and Brian had not worked together in more than a year. Their last collaboration had been "Sidewalk Surfin'," which was recorded in July and August 1964. Brian never worked long with any single outside songwriting collaborator, and his tenure with Jan fit that mold.
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« Reply #196 on: March 07, 2018, 04:55:17 AM »

Who is Lee Marshall? Wink

Tony the Tiger.

Sorry...No.  I can't honestly let that thought go without an explanation.  THAT Lee Marshall worked mostly in the U S of A.  Real name Marshall Aaron Mayer.  Marshall passed away 4 years ago this April at the age of 64.  His first name was actually Marshall.  My last name really is Marshall.  And I'm older than 64.   He did radio and AWA Wrestling on TV and he was also the voice of Tony.  I do radio, did TV and National voice overs for dozens of different clients.  I don't think my namesake ever MC'd Beach Boys shows either.  I have.

I just wanted to clear that up because I don't want folks thinking I'm someone else whose body of work  was as distinct as Lee's/Marshall's.  He was an American.  I am a Canadian.  I used Add Some when I joined up here because at that time there were 2 other Lee's actively posting.  Nowadays?  Not so much.  Besides...I didn't want to be accused of hiding behind some 'board' name.

Anyway...Carry on

mtaber posted "Let's summarize...

Dean really had very little, and perhaps no, influence on Brian's falsetto.

Jan and Dean are not on an equal level with the Beach Boys.  But they certainly had some killer singles, largely thanks to Brian.

Brian was probably a lot more influenced by Spector and the Four Freshmen (and Gershwin) than he was by Jan.

But Jan does rank just below the aforementioned trio of influences, in terms of Brian's developing his musical chops."

That seems pretty accurate...although there may well have been others, simultaneously engineering with Brian at the helm, who may have contributed some good ideas.
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"Add Some...Music...To Your Day.  I do.  It's the only way to fly.  Well...what was I gonna put here?  An apple a day keeps the doctor away?  Hum me a few bars."   Lee Marshall [2014]

Donald  TRUMP!  ...  Is TOAST.  "What a disaster."  "Overrated?"... ... ..."BIG LEAGUE."  "Lots of people are saying it"  "I will tell you that."   Collusion, Money Laundering, Treason.   B'Bye Dirty Donnie!!!  Adios!!!  Bon Voyage!!!  Toodles!!!  Move yourself...SPANKY!!!  Jail awaits.  It's NO "Witch Hunt". There IS Collusion...and worse.  The Russian Mafia!!  Conspiracies!!  Fraud!!  This racist is goin' down...and soon.  Good Riddance.  And take the kids.
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« Reply #197 on: March 07, 2018, 05:46:09 AM »

Who is Lee Marshall? Wink

Tony the Tiger.

Sorry...No.  I can't honestly let that thought go without an explanation.  THAT Lee Marshall worked mostly in the U S of A.  Real name Marshall Aaron Mayer.  Marshall passed away 4 years ago this April at the age of 64.  His first name was actually Marshall.  My last name really is Marshall.  And I'm older than 64.   He did radio and AWA Wrestling on TV and he was also the voice of Tony.  I do radio, did TV and National voice overs for dozens of different clients.  I don't think my namesake ever MC'd Beach Boys shows either.  I have.

I just wanted to clear that up because I don't want folks thinking I'm someone else whose body of work  was as distinct as Lee's/Marshall's.  He was an American.  I am a Canadian.  I used Add Some when I joined up here because at that time there were 2 other Lee's actively posting.  Nowadays?  Not so much.  Besides...I didn't want to be accused of hiding behind some 'board' name.

Anyway...Carry on


Hang on a tic. Are you the voice of CTV?
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« Reply #198 on: March 07, 2018, 06:01:22 AM »

Up til 3 years and a few months ago yes.  Like for 15 or 16 years.  It was great fun.  Doing the Olympics in Vancouver [Winter] and also for the summer games in London...those were career highlights.  I'm a lucky SOB.  Period.  'Nuff said.
-----

Anyway...please...back to Brian...Dean and Jan.
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"Add Some...Music...To Your Day.  I do.  It's the only way to fly.  Well...what was I gonna put here?  An apple a day keeps the doctor away?  Hum me a few bars."   Lee Marshall [2014]

Donald  TRUMP!  ...  Is TOAST.  "What a disaster."  "Overrated?"... ... ..."BIG LEAGUE."  "Lots of people are saying it"  "I will tell you that."   Collusion, Money Laundering, Treason.   B'Bye Dirty Donnie!!!  Adios!!!  Bon Voyage!!!  Toodles!!!  Move yourself...SPANKY!!!  Jail awaits.  It's NO "Witch Hunt". There IS Collusion...and worse.  The Russian Mafia!!  Conspiracies!!  Fraud!!  This racist is goin' down...and soon.  Good Riddance.  And take the kids.
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« Reply #199 on: March 07, 2018, 10:11:01 AM »

Who is Lee Marshall? Wink

Tony the Tiger.

Sorry...No.  I can't honestly let that thought go without an explanation.  THAT Lee Marshall worked mostly in the U S of A.  Real name Marshall Aaron Mayer.  Marshall passed away 4 years ago this April at the age of 64.  His first name was actually Marshall.  My last name really is Marshall.  And I'm older than 64.   He did radio and AWA Wrestling on TV and he was also the voice of Tony.  I do radio, did TV and National voice overs for dozens of different clients.  I don't think my namesake ever MC'd Beach Boys shows either.  I have.

I just wanted to clear that up because I don't want folks thinking I'm someone else whose body of work  was as distinct as Lee's/Marshall's.  He was an American.  I am a Canadian.  I used Add Some when I joined up here because at that time there were 2 other Lee's actively posting.  Nowadays?  Not so much.  Besides...I didn't want to be accused of hiding behind some 'board' name.

Anyway...Carry on

mtaber posted "Let's summarize...

Dean really had very little, and perhaps no, influence on Brian's falsetto.

Jan and Dean are not on an equal level with the Beach Boys.  But they certainly had some killer singles, largely thanks to Brian.

Brian was probably a lot more influenced by Spector and the Four Freshmen (and Gershwin) than he was by Jan.

But Jan does rank just below the aforementioned trio of influences, in terms of Brian's developing his musical chops."

That seems pretty accurate...although there may well have been others, simultaneously engineering with Brian at the helm, who may have contributed some good ideas.

Lol, wow what a coincidence, I was mostly just joking, I had no idea that the two of you had so much in common when I made my original post.

To blur the lines even further, as I look at wikipedia it says that Other Lee had a stint in Windsor, Ontario, and while there he had a segment called "20/20 News".   LOL
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