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Author Topic: Dean Torrence influence on Brian Wilson  (Read 45767 times)
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« Reply #125 on: March 03, 2018, 10:37:51 AM »

Not really interested in reading ALL 5 pages...yet.  Gotta go out and do a little grocery shopping for the 'little lady' shortly.  [no ... not the one from Pasadena]  I was always under the impression that Brian influenced Dean...and especially Jan.  Sure J&D had been around awhile before Brian found the 'sound' but Jan and Dean never sounded like they were into the Beach Boys  'style' ... until they actually heard it and Brian supplied some songs for them...plus a secret voice or 2.

I mean I liked Surf City...LOVED Drag City...dug Sidewalk Surfin' and the Little Old Lady from P-Town and enjoyed most of the Ride the Wild Surf and J&D Meet Batman albums [have a cookie] but Dean Torrence influencing Brian Douglas Wilson?  That they were buddies back in the day is evident.  But when it comes to influence...Hawthorne flowed toward Jan and Dean's neck of the woods...not the other way.

[unless it was "Hey!!!  If those guys can do it...we sure as shootin' can..."Surfin is the only life...the only life for me now [pinch yer nose and SING!!!]...bom bom/dip dip di dip...."]

AND THAT was before Brian had "found the sound."  [thankfully...or I wouldn't he here...and Jan and Dean wouldn't be in this thread.]]
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« Reply #126 on: March 03, 2018, 10:46:06 AM »

Well, on topic, I do want to say that Jan & Dean have never much caught my attention but I do think it's not a great idea to evaluate music in terms of its "coolness" and how much "cool people" like it. I think that's a particularly dangerous evaluation criteria when one is a Beach Boys fan.

This 100%.

As to Dean Torrence's influence on BW, is it true that Dean suggested they record Barbara Ann?  That's something I guess.  I mean, I personally can't stand the song but it was a big hit for them so...  And it's fair to say Brian liked Dean as a graphic designer.

Good points

The story is that Jan And Dean were asked by Brian to be part of the "Party" he would be recording for the "Party!" album, but their record company refused to allow it unless contracts were signed and a bunch of other stuff happened. So J&D declined the offer. But the day Brian was in the studio cutting tracks for Party, Jan and Dean were recording in the same complex, in a different studio room. There was something that needed to be fixed at that J&D session, a break was called, and Dean said he was going over to visit the Beach Boys session across the way. According to Dean, Jan told him not to sing.

Dean shows up at the BB's session. They want to do a tune. They start discussing which tunes they could do, which songs they knew. Dean said Barbara Ann because everyone knew it, he had cut it with Jan earlier, and they started running it down, checking the key, getting a structure, etc.

Dean was singing with the "group", part of the background vocals, lower harmonies, as Brian did falsetto lead. Brian told him to come over to his mic and sing the falsetto lead with him. So he did. And that's the sound of the record. A dual, double-falsetto lead vocal. One element that helped make it a hit on the radio - that strong falsetto cutting through.

The reason why they did that song is also because Dean told them he only had a small amount of time to sing with them, because he had to go back to the session Jan was doing across the way. Like, 15 minutes and he had to leave. So they picked an easy and familiar song they all knew.

It wasn't a case of Dean calling Brian or anyone else and saying "Guys, if you cut this Regents song that Jan and I covered back in '62, you'll have a smash hit record!". It was a spur of the moment choice that everyone there already knew, it was a basic song, and it was done because Dean only had a brief break from his session to sing with the Beach Boys before he had to split. And he was originally not going to double the falsetto until Brian asked him to join him at the lead mic.

There is *a lot* of misinformation about that song going around. One is that Capitol "forced" Brian to release it as a single. No - Capitol wanted product from Brian and the BB's, so the Party album was what they got. And a Capitol exec who was assigned to Brian and the band tried to talk Brian out of releasing Barbara Ann as a single. Talked the song down, talked down the recording, said it wouldn't look good next to The Beatles, etc after Brian played them the acetate. Brian took the record, got up to walk out of the man's office, held up the acetate of Barbara Ann, and told him "this is our next single" as he walked out. That exec never worked directly with Brian again on BB's releases.




Never knew that info in the last paragraph!

It is amazing how many sources reported or still report that Capitol forced Barbara Ann as a single against Brian's wishes. If anything they tried to talk him out of it, and the exec who did the talking basically got shut out of the process after this incident and said he never worked with Brian directly again on Capitol BB releases, which says a lot about how confident Brian was in that song being a single despite it not sounding like what he had been producing and charting at the time. And he was right, it became a smash hit!
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« Reply #127 on: March 03, 2018, 10:54:40 AM »

I feel like some portion of BB fans are so apt to hate on J&D because people (outside of devoted fans of the genre) associate J&D songs in general with being kind of hokey, tongue-in-cheek teenybopper/childish stuff, and Their Favorite Band that they've devoted so much time to is NOT LIKE THAT, OKAY?!  NOW CHANGE THE SUBJECT.

If you catch the vocal inflection that I tried to convey through my keyboard....
Dude, chill. I don’t care for them because I just don’t care for the music. Hell, it took me a long time to even get the early BB music. Just my opinion.

Yeah, that's totally fine! 

I didn't think I was being un-chill with what I said, sorry if I came off that way.
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« Reply #128 on: March 03, 2018, 10:58:59 AM »

I bought into that as well. I think every book out there has pretty much said that. It stands to reason that it’s false though. Back then, Brian had the clut to have the final say.
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« Reply #129 on: March 03, 2018, 11:01:35 AM »

I feel like some portion of BB fans are so apt to hate on J&D because people (outside of devoted fans of the genre) associate J&D songs in general with being kind of hokey, tongue-in-cheek teenybopper/childish stuff, and Their Favorite Band that they've devoted so much time to is NOT LIKE THAT, OKAY?!  NOW CHANGE THE SUBJECT.

If you catch the vocal inflection that I tried to convey through my keyboard....
Dude, chill. I don’t care for them because I just don’t care for the music. Hell, it took me a long time to even get the early BB music. Just my opinion.

Yeah, that's totally fine! 

I didn't think I was being un-chill with what I said, sorry if I came off that way.

No worries. I can understand the frustration. If anything, I kind of feel bad because I want to like their stuff. I just...don’t. Surf City is an exception, though, and Little old lady from Pasadena is as well, but other than that? Pass.
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« Reply #130 on: March 03, 2018, 11:20:55 AM »

I feel like some portion of BB fans are so apt to hate on J&D because people (outside of devoted fans of the genre) associate J&D songs in general with being kind of hokey, tongue-in-cheek teenybopper/childish stuff, and Their Favorite Band that they've devoted so much time to is NOT LIKE THAT, OKAY?!  NOW CHANGE THE SUBJECT.

If you catch the vocal inflection that I tried to convey through my keyboard....
Dude, chill. I don’t care for them because I just don’t care for the music. Hell, it took me a long time to even get the early BB music. Just my opinion.

Yeah, that's totally fine! 

I didn't think I was being un-chill with what I said, sorry if I came off that way.

No worries. I can understand the frustration. If anything, I kind of feel bad because I want to like their stuff. I just...don’t. Surf City is an exception, though, and Little old lady from Pasadena is as well, but other than that? Pass.

I hear you.  I think I might like them as a historical curiosity more than I do their music.  A good chunk of it can be good or even really good, but a lot of it I am not that into.  And I can't ever get behind the kinda Eisenhower conservatism vibe that came out in some of their songs, especially the ones waaaay after Eisenhower.
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« Reply #131 on: March 03, 2018, 11:27:39 AM »

To Mark A. Moore:

Replying to your post, I'm interested to hear your thoughts on the opinions and facts I'm going to post. I'm going from memory on some of this, so if anything needs to be corrected in terms of timeline and specifics, please do.

From what I remember, Jan and Dean first played with the Beach Boys at a live gig near Hawthorne. They saw how the crowd was getting into the surfing songs and the overall kind of music the BB's were playing, and at that gig they had the Beach Boys back them in their own set, or after the set...whatever the case, the Beach Boys backed J&D at that gig and this inspired Jan especially in terms of the whole surfing theme because of the audience's reaction.

Fast forward to a new J&D album. Lou Adler I believe pushed the surfing themes even more, and the subsequent album was "Jan And Dean Take Linda Surfin".




I think one of the *key* points in what we're discussing in terms of influence if not the "chicken or the egg" scenario can be heard in the grooves of that album.

If we listen to that album as a whole, it's essentially Jan and Dean covering popular hits of the day, along with the "title" track Linda which was written in the 1940's. "Linda" if anything sounds like Jan and Lou going for the same sound Crewe and Gaudio were doing on 4 Seasons records. Not surprisingly they also cover a 4 Seasons track on the album, again alongside other hits like Mr. Bass Man, Rhythm Of The Rain, etc.

Jan was basically doing what they call "soundalikes" in the business. There wasn't much of a personal sonic imprint on any of those cuts, in fact at least half sound like...soundalike cover versions that aren't different from the original hits they were covering. The production overall is pretty much a meat-and-potatoes affair, and on some tracks it's almost too thin and the vocals are even a little pitchy. Definitely no Spector-like Wall Of Sound, or dense backing tracks. Again, it's a pretty basic, workingman-like production.

But - and here's where I think we need to look in terms of the influence angle - Jan covers both Surfin and Surfin Safari, which of course were Beach Boys songs that had been released the previous year.

Is Jan doing something other than copying the sounds Brian was producing for Beach Boys records? I say no, in fact he's copying the BB's originals almost verbatim.

So wouldn't that suggest Jan was actually being influenced in a production sense by Brian if he was cutting records that were carbon copies more or less of what Brian was doing for the Beach Boys' originals? If it were the other way around, the Beach Boys on those first two albums and related singles would have had something that had for lack of a better term the "Jan Berry Sound", and it simply isn't there. It's the other way around, where Jan was copying producers like Brian, Crewe/Gaudio, etc on what was the current album and project that was on the front burner when Brian and Jan started work on Surf City.

So Lou Adler gets Brian and Jan together in a writing capacity, and among other tunes Brian plays Surfin USA (which he did not give to J&D because it was already slated for a BB release) and Surf City, which of course became the first and most fruitful of their collaboration.

It was on Surf City that I think we hear *that sound*, and I wonder how much of it was Jan and how much of it was Jan going for a Spector/Levine "Wall Of Sound". Of course Spector and his Wall were on fire at that time, after He's A Rebel hit #1 in 1962, he was on an amazing roll on the singles charts.

So couldn't it be also a case where Jan, like he did with copying the production sounds on hits cut by Brian, Crewe/Gaudio, etc for the Linda album went for the Spector sound at that time just as Brian would do on his own records?

It would suggest Spector was perhaps the keystone influence on both Jan and Brian, which acknowledges both Brian being influenced by Jan after Jan copied Brian's production style on those covers from the Linda album. I think it was more of a mutual influence kind of deal rather than an overt case of Brian "stealing" ideas or sounds from Jan as sadly still gets reported and written in some circles.

I'd say Jan copying Brian on those covers before he tried to go for that Spector-like Wall Of Sound might show that the influence came out in the grooves of the records as evidence Jan was taking cues from Brian. Because unless I'm missing something in the timeline of the discography, nothing Jan did had *that sound* which Brian supposedly copied from Jan until after Surf City when they first worked together. And they were both taking cues from Spector, who was among the hottest producers in the business at this time with his Wall Of Sound.

« Last Edit: March 03, 2018, 11:28:52 AM by guitarfool2002 » Logged

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« Reply #132 on: March 03, 2018, 12:52:26 PM »

To Mark A. Moore:

Replying to your post, I'm interested to hear your thoughts on the opinions and facts I'm going to post. I'm going from memory on some of this, so if anything needs to be corrected in terms of timeline and specifics, please do.

From what I remember, Jan and Dean first played with the Beach Boys at a live gig near Hawthorne. They saw how the crowd was getting into the surfing songs and the overall kind of music the BB's were playing, and at that gig they had the Beach Boys back them in their own set, or after the set...whatever the case, the Beach Boys backed J&D at that gig and this inspired Jan especially in terms of the whole surfing theme because of the audience's reaction.

Fast forward to a new J&D album. Lou Adler I believe pushed the surfing themes even more, and the subsequent album was "Jan And Dean Take Linda Surfin".




I think one of the *key* points in what we're discussing in terms of influence if not the "chicken or the egg" scenario can be heard in the grooves of that album.

If we listen to that album as a whole, it's essentially Jan and Dean covering popular hits of the day, along with the "title" track Linda which was written in the 1940's. "Linda" if anything sounds like Jan and Lou going for the same sound Crewe and Gaudio were doing on 4 Seasons records. Not surprisingly they also cover a 4 Seasons track on the album, again alongside other hits like Mr. Bass Man, Rhythm Of The Rain, etc.

Jan was basically doing what they call "soundalikes" in the business. There wasn't much of a personal sonic imprint on any of those cuts, in fact at least half sound like...soundalike cover versions that aren't different from the original hits they were covering. The production overall is pretty much a meat-and-potatoes affair, and on some tracks it's almost too thin and the vocals are even a little pitchy. Definitely no Spector-like Wall Of Sound, or dense backing tracks. Again, it's a pretty basic, workingman-like production.

But - and here's where I think we need to look in terms of the influence angle - Jan covers both Surfin and Surfin Safari, which of course were Beach Boys songs that had been released the previous year.

Is Jan doing something other than copying the sounds Brian was producing for Beach Boys records? I say no, in fact he's copying the BB's originals almost verbatim.

So wouldn't that suggest Jan was actually being influenced in a production sense by Brian if he was cutting records that were carbon copies more or less of what Brian was doing for the Beach Boys' originals? If it were the other way around, the Beach Boys on those first two albums and related singles would have had something that had for lack of a better term the "Jan Berry Sound", and it simply isn't there. It's the other way around, where Jan was copying producers like Brian, Crewe/Gaudio, etc on what was the current album and project that was on the front burner when Brian and Jan started work on Surf City.

So Lou Adler gets Brian and Jan together in a writing capacity, and among other tunes Brian plays Surfin USA (which he did not give to J&D because it was already slated for a BB release) and Surf City, which of course became the first and most fruitful of their collaboration.

It was on Surf City that I think we hear *that sound*, and I wonder how much of it was Jan and how much of it was Jan going for a Spector/Levine "Wall Of Sound". Of course Spector and his Wall were on fire at that time, after He's A Rebel hit #1 in 1962, he was on an amazing roll on the singles charts.

So couldn't it be also a case where Jan, like he did with copying the production sounds on hits cut by Brian, Crewe/Gaudio, etc for the Linda album went for the Spector sound at that time just as Brian would do on his own records?

It would suggest Spector was perhaps the keystone influence on both Jan and Brian, which acknowledges both Brian being influenced by Jan after Jan copied Brian's production style on those covers from the Linda album. I think it was more of a mutual influence kind of deal rather than an overt case of Brian "stealing" ideas or sounds from Jan as sadly still gets reported and written in some circles.

I'd say Jan copying Brian on those covers before he tried to go for that Spector-like Wall Of Sound might show that the influence came out in the grooves of the records as evidence Jan was taking cues from Brian. Because unless I'm missing something in the timeline of the discography, nothing Jan did had *that sound* which Brian supposedly copied from Jan until after Surf City when they first worked together. And they were both taking cues from Spector, who was among the hottest producers in the business at this time with his Wall Of Sound.



I don’t think Brian “stole” or “copied” anything from Jan. And I don’t think Brian would have tried to sound like Jan’s productions. Jan helped show Brian how to get around the business, and equipment techniques, ping-ponging, the Wrecking Crew, etc. Engineer Bones Howe talks about that.

Jan was certainly influenced by Spector and Crewe/Gaudio.

I don’t think Jan copied Brian’s production sound for “Surfin’” and “Surfin’ Safari.” For one thing, Brian didn’t really produce those records. But to my ear, those two Beach Boys tracks have more of a garage surf vibe to them—“Surfin’ Safari” in particular—some raw power there. (I wish they had recorded “Surfin’” in its original key). I love the originals, but Jan’s productions of those two songs are more polished than the Beach Boys versions. But at the same time, they’re faithful covers of the originals.

Most of the basic tracks for Take Linda Surfin’ were recorded over two days in February of ’63—nothing special there. The “Surfin’” and “Surfin’s Safari” session was held in early March with Brian, Carl, Dennis, and David Marks. The album was released in mid-April. That was Jan’s first album production (still with Nevins-Kirshner at that time), and it was a journeyman compilation. It sounds rushed to me.

The single “Linda” (plus the album’s other covers) was Jan’s first official production for Jan & Dean, and even though he added brass and woodwinds, it’s pretty thin. I’ve always been bugged by it, because it wasn’t on par with Jan’s production of the unreleased “I’m Dying To Give You My Love” (1961)—different genre though, “Girl Group” vs. duo I guess.

In March 1963 the sessions for “Surf City” and “Gonna Hustle You” marked the beginning of what would become Jan’s signature production sound which, for the rhythm tracks, typically included two drummers, three guitars (including Danelectro six-string bass guitar), two basses (sometimes one), and piano. Brass, woodwinds, strings, and auxiliary percussion were of course overdubbed. This dense approach to tracking was similar to Spector, but with Jan creating his own sound.

"Surf City" has a vastly different sound, track-wise, than "Surfin' USA."

You don’t hear anything like that in Brian’s Beach Boys productions in ’63 or ’64. Brian’s backing tracks remained basic by comparison, with his main focus being on their amazing vocals, but still with nice instrumentation, etc.

Jan took it a step further with “Honolulu Lulu” and the Surf City album in ’63—some nice horn and string arrangements on that LP. Listen to this backing track for “Honolulu Lulu,” without the vocals or “Hawaiian guitar” overdubs.

“Honolulu Lulu” (mp3)— Western, June 13, 1963. Musicians: Jan Berry (leader), Hal Blaine (drums), Earl Palmer (drums), Glen Campbell (guitar); Billy Strange (guitar); Bill Pitman (Danelectro six-string bass guitar); Ray Pohlman (bass)

You just don’t hear this kind of tracking on Beach Boys records in ’63 or ’64. Jan and Brian just had different approaches to what they were trying to accomplish, in terms of production.

Jan didn’t really hit his production stride until the Drag City LP in November 1963. That was the first one that featured a majority of Jan’s original compositions and strong non-single album cuts. Drag City, Dead Man’s Curve / The New Girl In School, Ride the Wild Surf, and The Little Old Lady from Pasadena are the big four albums for J&D, in terms of overall quality.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2018, 12:59:03 PM by Mark A. Moore » Logged

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« Reply #133 on: March 03, 2018, 01:38:14 PM »

Jan had a distinct approach to his arrangements and productions. He was precise; you hear it in the Honolulu Lulu track that Mark A. Moore provided. He did not mimic or cop from Spector.  There are no slushy, imprecise things going on; the track is tight as can be, whereas Spector tracks (w/Jack Nitzsche arrangements) are not; they were executed a loose, but grooving way, then washed out with reverb. Both approaches had their merit.

Where Jan used Brian's influence is in songwriting: structure, lyric topics, melodic/harmonic devices. For instance, riding underneath Honolulu Lulu is Catch A Wave (chord progression in the verse, structure, and cymbals used with mallets).

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« Reply #134 on: March 03, 2018, 02:26:03 PM »

Mark, thank you sharing that backing track!! What a great production. Jan was the best!!
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« Reply #135 on: March 03, 2018, 02:55:39 PM »

Maybe this has already been mentioned in this thread, but another part of the "Barbara Ann" story is that Jan was recording "You Really Know How to Hurt a Guy"  and Dean couldn't stand the song, so he went down the hall and joined the Beach Boys session for a few minutes.  Mark can correct me if I'm mis-remembering this.
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« Reply #136 on: March 03, 2018, 03:30:54 PM »

Maybe this has already been mentioned in this thread, but another part of the "Barbara Ann" story is that Jan was recording "You Really Know How to Hurt a Guy"  and Dean couldn't stand the song, so he went down the hall and joined the Beach Boys session for a few minutes.  Mark can correct me if I'm mis-remembering this.

That's the way Dean told it, six years after the event in 1971, but he was mistaken.

"You Really Know How To Hurt A Guy" was recorded in April 1965 and exited the charts on July 17.

Jan's September 23, 1965, session at Western 3 (8:00 p.m.-Midnight) was for the songs "Everyone's Gone to the Moon," "Let Me Be," and "Where Were You When I Needed You." And it was a tracking session, not vocals, so I'm not sure why Dean was there.

The Beach Boys session that night was from 9:00 p.m.-Midnight, and  12:30-3:30 a.m. in Western 2.
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« Reply #137 on: March 03, 2018, 04:31:45 PM »

Thanks, Mark, I think I got my information from the Legendary Masters liner notes, if I'm remembering correctly.  I've had a lot of brain cells die in the last 20 years!  LOL
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« Reply #138 on: March 03, 2018, 06:20:15 PM »

Thanks for that info, Mark. (I recall reading that it was "A Beginning from an End", fwiw). Thanks for the mp3, too!

I think it's important to distinguish between influence by way of personal interaction and influence by way of, let's call it creative inspiration. Both groups influenced each other in both ways (and even covered each other), I'd say, but it was the personal side that is less obvious to outsiders.

The most crucial thing to me is that, as  I understand it, Jan verbally encouraged Brian to use session musicians to augment/supplant the Boys, saying something like "As long as the Beach Boys are singing, no one cares who played the backing tracks." Now, I may be wrong about this or maybe it's been disproven with new information, but that example is that personal influence that really has nothing to do with one band being better than the other.
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« Reply #139 on: March 03, 2018, 07:07:15 PM »

Thanks for that info, Mark. (I recall reading that it was "A Beginning from an End", fwiw).

"A Beginning from an End," tracked as "Miss You," was in the works at the time, but not on the "Barbara Ann" date.
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« Reply #140 on: March 03, 2018, 07:28:07 PM »

To Mark A. Moore:

Replying to your post, I'm interested to hear your thoughts on the opinions and facts I'm going to post. I'm going from memory on some of this, so if anything needs to be corrected in terms of timeline and specifics, please do.

From what I remember, Jan and Dean first played with the Beach Boys at a live gig near Hawthorne. They saw how the crowd was getting into the surfing songs and the overall kind of music the BB's were playing, and at that gig they had the Beach Boys back them in their own set, or after the set...whatever the case, the Beach Boys backed J&D at that gig and this inspired Jan especially in terms of the whole surfing theme because of the audience's reaction.

Fast forward to a new J&D album. Lou Adler I believe pushed the surfing themes even more, and the subsequent album was "Jan And Dean Take Linda Surfin".




I think one of the *key* points in what we're discussing in terms of influence if not the "chicken or the egg" scenario can be heard in the grooves of that album.

If we listen to that album as a whole, it's essentially Jan and Dean covering popular hits of the day, along with the "title" track Linda which was written in the 1940's. "Linda" if anything sounds like Jan and Lou going for the same sound Crewe and Gaudio were doing on 4 Seasons records. Not surprisingly they also cover a 4 Seasons track on the album, again alongside other hits like Mr. Bass Man, Rhythm Of The Rain, etc.

Jan was basically doing what they call "soundalikes" in the business. There wasn't much of a personal sonic imprint on any of those cuts, in fact at least half sound like...soundalike cover versions that aren't different from the original hits they were covering. The production overall is pretty much a meat-and-potatoes affair, and on some tracks it's almost too thin and the vocals are even a little pitchy. Definitely no Spector-like Wall Of Sound, or dense backing tracks. Again, it's a pretty basic, workingman-like production.

But - and here's where I think we need to look in terms of the influence angle - Jan covers both Surfin and Surfin Safari, which of course were Beach Boys songs that had been released the previous year.

Is Jan doing something other than copying the sounds Brian was producing for Beach Boys records? I say no, in fact he's copying the BB's originals almost verbatim.

So wouldn't that suggest Jan was actually being influenced in a production sense by Brian if he was cutting records that were carbon copies more or less of what Brian was doing for the Beach Boys' originals? If it were the other way around, the Beach Boys on those first two albums and related singles would have had something that had for lack of a better term the "Jan Berry Sound", and it simply isn't there. It's the other way around, where Jan was copying producers like Brian, Crewe/Gaudio, etc on what was the current album and project that was on the front burner when Brian and Jan started work on Surf City.

So Lou Adler gets Brian and Jan together in a writing capacity, and among other tunes Brian plays Surfin USA (which he did not give to J&D because it was already slated for a BB release) and Surf City, which of course became the first and most fruitful of their collaboration.

It was on Surf City that I think we hear *that sound*, and I wonder how much of it was Jan and how much of it was Jan going for a Spector/Levine "Wall Of Sound". Of course Spector and his Wall were on fire at that time, after He's A Rebel hit #1 in 1962, he was on an amazing roll on the singles charts.

So couldn't it be also a case where Jan, like he did with copying the production sounds on hits cut by Brian, Crewe/Gaudio, etc for the Linda album went for the Spector sound at that time just as Brian would do on his own records?

It would suggest Spector was perhaps the keystone influence on both Jan and Brian, which acknowledges both Brian being influenced by Jan after Jan copied Brian's production style on those covers from the Linda album. I think it was more of a mutual influence kind of deal rather than an overt case of Brian "stealing" ideas or sounds from Jan as sadly still gets reported and written in some circles.

I'd say Jan copying Brian on those covers before he tried to go for that Spector-like Wall Of Sound might show that the influence came out in the grooves of the records as evidence Jan was taking cues from Brian. Because unless I'm missing something in the timeline of the discography, nothing Jan did had *that sound* which Brian supposedly copied from Jan until after Surf City when they first worked together. And they were both taking cues from Spector, who was among the hottest producers in the business at this time with his Wall Of Sound.



I don’t think Brian “stole” or “copied” anything from Jan. And I don’t think Brian would have tried to sound like Jan’s productions. Jan helped show Brian how to get around the business, and equipment techniques, ping-ponging, the Wrecking Crew, etc. Engineer Bones Howe talks about that.

Jan was certainly influenced by Spector and Crewe/Gaudio.

I don’t think Jan copied Brian’s production sound for “Surfin’” and “Surfin’ Safari.” For one thing, Brian didn’t really produce those records. But to my ear, those two Beach Boys tracks have more of a garage surf vibe to them—“Surfin’ Safari” in particular—some raw power there. (I wish they had recorded “Surfin’” in its original key). I love the originals, but Jan’s productions of those two songs are more polished than the Beach Boys versions. But at the same time, they’re faithful covers of the originals.

Most of the basic tracks for Take Linda Surfin’ were recorded over two days in February of ’63—nothing special there. The “Surfin’” and “Surfin’s Safari” session was held in early March with Brian, Carl, Dennis, and David Marks. The album was released in mid-April. That was Jan’s first album production (still with Nevins-Kirshner at that time), and it was a journeyman compilation. It sounds rushed to me.

The single “Linda” (plus the album’s other covers) was Jan’s first official production for Jan & Dean, and even though he added brass and woodwinds, it’s pretty thin. I’ve always been bugged by it, because it wasn’t on par with Jan’s production of the unreleased “I’m Dying To Give You My Love” (1961)—different genre though, “Girl Group” vs. duo I guess.

In March 1963 the sessions for “Surf City” and “Gonna Hustle You” marked the beginning of what would become Jan’s signature production sound which, for the rhythm tracks, typically included two drummers, three guitars (including Danelectro six-string bass guitar), two basses (sometimes one), and piano. Brass, woodwinds, strings, and auxiliary percussion were of course overdubbed. This dense approach to tracking was similar to Spector, but with Jan creating his own sound.

"Surf City" has a vastly different sound, track-wise, than "Surfin' USA."


You don’t hear anything like that in Brian’s Beach Boys productions in ’63 or ’64. Brian’s backing tracks remained basic by comparison, with his main focus being on their amazing vocals, but still with nice instrumentation, etc.

Jan took it a step further with “Honolulu Lulu” and the Surf City album in ’63—some nice horn and string arrangements on that LP. Listen to this backing track for “Honolulu Lulu,” without the vocals or “Hawaiian guitar” overdubs.

“Honolulu Lulu” (mp3)— Western, June 13, 1963. Musicians: Jan Berry (leader), Hal Blaine (drums), Earl Palmer (drums), Glen Campbell (guitar); Billy Strange (guitar); Bill Pitman (Danelectro six-string bass guitar); Ray Pohlman (bass)

You just don’t hear this kind of tracking on Beach Boys records in ’63 or ’64. Jan and Brian just had different approaches to what they were trying to accomplish, in terms of production.

Jan didn’t really hit his production stride until the Drag City LP in November 1963. That was the first one that featured a majority of Jan’s original compositions and strong non-single album cuts. Drag City, Dead Man’s Curve / The New Girl In School, Ride the Wild Surf, and The Little Old Lady from Pasadena are the big four albums for J&D, in terms of overall quality.


Just pulling out for now two quotes in bold:

>>>I don’t think Jan copied Brian’s production sound for “Surfin’” and “Surfin’ Safari.” For one thing, Brian didn’t really produce those records. But to my ear, those two Beach Boys tracks have more of a garage surf vibe to them—“Surfin’ Safari” in particular—some raw power there. (I wish they had recorded “Surfin’” in its original key). I love the originals, but Jan’s productions of those two songs are more polished than the Beach Boys versions. But at the same time, they’re faithful covers of the originals.<<<

Chuck Britz disagrees with the notion that Brian didn't really produce the songs Brian cut at Western, including Surfin Safari in April '62. I disagree too. If we're talking about that first Capitol single cut at Western and not the later re-records for the album cut at the Capitol tower, that is. Chuck said even at that first Western session he engineered, Brian was the one calling the shots, i.e. producing. We can debate all day whether Brian or Murry or later Nik Venet did more than another in terms of producing, but to me there is no doubt who was calling the shots and doing the hands on producing rather than barking orders, or in Venet's case, overseeing the process similar to a Tom Wilson with Dylan or Chet Atkins with Elvis in '56 as his A&R title would have him doing more than the hands-on running of those sessions. Surfin - Are we talking about or comparing the Morgan version or the Capitol re-record?

No doubt it was garage-surf, both Surfin Safari and Surfin. That's what the Beach Boys were in the Spring of '62. When you suggest Jan's are more polished productions, yet faithful to the originals (faithful to the point of being carbon copy soundalikes to my ears with the only difference being the vocal timbres), and factor in that some Beach Boys themselves are on those sessions, it seems like a contradiction. Jan is copying what Brian already did going back to that Capitol demo that Venet bought and which became the Surfin Safari/409 single, and before that the Hite Morgan recording of Surfin. Maybe I just can't hear enough of whatever element Jan supposedly added to his covers to make them more polished, because they are faithful covers of the originals. but I think in Jan's case, they sound even thinner and lack the energy and charm that I think the BB's brought in terms of that garage style.




>>>In March 1963 the sessions for “Surf City” and “Gonna Hustle You” marked the beginning of what would become Jan’s signature production sound which, for the rhythm tracks, typically included two drummers, three guitars (including Danelectro six-string bass guitar), two basses (sometimes one), and piano. Brass, woodwinds, strings, and auxiliary percussion were of course overdubbed. This dense approach to tracking was similar to Spector, but with Jan creating his own sound.

"Surf City" has a vastly different sound, track-wise, than "Surfin' USA."<<<


Naturally it would. The Beach Boys were a self-contained band. Jan And Dean had no structured backing band to speak of, which is why I mentioned the Beach Boys backing them up. If Jan wanted to cut records in 62-63, he would need to either stack it all himself, or hire the musicians to be the backing band. The Beach Boys at that time were still a fully 100% self-contained unit to where the same band you heard live was the band on the records. Jan & Dean were obviously not a band but a duo. That's obvious but I say it to make a point. I don't see Jan's vision coming out of this as much as necessity.

And as Spector was cutting smash hit records in 62 and into 63 which had a room crammed full of musicians doubling and tripling instruments and getting a signature sound that was making millions, I see Jan doing the same thing as basically following the influence of Spector and trying to get sounds that were making Spector a millionaire and scoring top-5 hits. He also used the same loose-knit group of session players as Phil, which of course Brian would later do.

And in Brian's case, the sound started to change when Brian more or less made a decision to focus on producing records rather than touring, as we all know, but which also changed the Beach Boys from that self-contained band into almost separate entities. I wouldn't be surprised if there were suggestions written or posted online that Jan influenced *that* too, but above all I can't stop going right back to Phil Spector as the source of influence and inspiration for both Jan and Brian to where their productions started using Phil's musicians and became an individualized version of the sounds Phil was having great success with starting roughly in '62 when He's A Rebel hit #1 and all the hits followed.

The "Take Linda Surfin" album, I have to judge it in terms of the sounds, the scope, the flaws and drawbacks, and all else if the discussion is about who influenced whom first, or wherever the discussion went. That is what Jan was doing, those were the sounds he was putting on record, rushed or not. It wasn't until Adler got Brian and Jan together, and Christian and a few others followed to where the songs being written got much better, that we can hear bigger productions that I think owe more to Spector's direct influence than anyone.

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« Reply #141 on: March 03, 2018, 11:16:45 PM »

I hear a big difference in production on those two songs, regardless of Morgan or Capitol, and regardless of who produced them—a different sound using the same players (Beach Boys). But I still love the originals.

Spector was an influence, for sure, as I said. He had his own sound and style. But I would argue they weren't "Phil's musicians." I think that's one of the fallacies of modern music journalism. They were not unique to his productions. The union players pre-dated that era, as did the union itself. Jan, as an example, began working with those musicians in 1958 (Joe Lubin's productions) and was leading recording sessions with those musicians by late 1961 and early '62.

The union players in Hollywood were everyone's musicians.

Jan had a different sound than Spector, and the signature sound Jan began developing in March 1963 was dense and sophisticated, but still not the Wall of Sound.
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« Reply #142 on: March 04, 2018, 12:11:16 AM »

I hear a big difference in production on those two songs, regardless of Morgan or Capitol, and regardless of who produced them—a different sound using the same players (Beach Boys). But I still love the originals.

Spector was an influence, for sure, as I said. He had his own sound and style. But I would argue they weren't "Phil's musicians." I think that's one of the fallacies of modern music journalism. They were not unique to his productions. The union players pre-dated that era, as did the union itself. Jan, as an example, began working with those musicians in 1958 (Joe Lubin's productions) and was leading recording sessions with those musicians by late 1961 and early '62.

The union players in Hollywood were everyone's musicians.

Jan had a different sound than Spector, and the signature sound Jan began developing in March 1963 was dense and sophisticated, but still not the Wall of Sound.

Yes, Jan's sound was very clean. Great insrument seperation. He is a sorely underrated producer, and as people have pointed out, I think this was to do with song choice, and overall positioning of the Jan and Dean brand.

I'm going to reclarify my position.

There is no doubt in my mind that Brian first observed techniques that he went on to master and innovate in, from watching Jan Berry. This includes overdubbing. Obviously he was aware of the process due to the sound on sound capabilties of his Wollensak, but he first saw it's use in a studio setting watching Jan cut tracks. I have already reccomended listening to the Fun Fun Fun sessions as an example of Brian utilizing a Jan Berry type approach to overdubbing. After the basic track is cut, the drums and bass and lead guitar get overdubbed again. I believe the guitar intro gets a third overdub. Very much what Jan had been doing. I agree with others that the recordings need to be our prime texts.

It may well be this approach did not originate from Berry, I am not claiming it did. I am claiming that Brian observed it being used by Jan Berry first, and became aware of the endless possibilities.

I'm not a huge Jan and Dean fan musically. Like many others here I find their songs derivative. Any balance of influences between Brian and Jan tips way more in Jan's favour.  I have no doubt they are only remembered today because of the Beach Boys connection.

However,  Jan did have a very good ear in the studio. An excellent ear which led to many excellent sounding records which stand out from that era. I've mentioned the word clean. They are big sounding records, and not in the Spectarian sense.

I have no problem at in saying that Jan was one of Brian's key early influences as a producer, and his influence went on to provide that clean-ness and seperation that marks Brian out from Spector. This influence also includes people management skills,  organisation as well as recording strategies. Jan was a few years older than Brian and had had a few years in the business. He was confident. Through him, Brian saw a model of how to "be" a record producer, a role that was at this time in great transition. He was a mentor. Brian did not develop in a vacuum. For those first few years he watched and learnt from what others were doing. Then he innovated.  He went on to eclipse everyone, from Jan Berry, to Spector, to the Beatles.

I have no problem giving credit were credit is due, and allowing Brian to be a human being who learns from the people around him.
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« Reply #143 on: March 04, 2018, 02:17:40 AM »

I wonder what would have happened in an alternate world where The Beach Boys released Surf City rather than Jan & Dean. Would it have charted the same way?
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« Reply #144 on: March 04, 2018, 07:54:07 AM »

Where I lived...Surf City was rather like an addendum to Surfin' USA/Shutdown.  It was June 17, 1963. The Beach Boys were kickin' off their 10th straight week on the chart...most of those weeks in the top 10...  By July 1st...Jan and Dean made the top 10.  The Beach Boys were STILL there.  The Beach Boys would hang around for the rest of July but by August 5th they were gone...to be replaced that week by Surfer Girl/Little Deuce Coupe.  That was the same week that Jan and Dean slipped out of the top 10.  In total...Surfin' USA lasted 6 weeks longer on the singles chart and the album in Toronto's Top 5 [source:  The CHUM Album Index] from May 27, 1963 every week until it fell off the mini chart December 2nd.  Be True to Your School was about to crack the top 10.  Surfer Girl/Little Deuce Coup waved goodbye on November 11th as Be True to Your School was beginning it's 2nd week on the chart.

Numbers and dates/numbers and dates...the point being...Where could they have squeezed Surf City into that constant and rolling string of successes?  By the end of '63 Surfin' was close to being toast.  T'was all about CARS.  [and Jan and dean would strike next with Drag City December 16th.]  In order for Surf City to make its mark...and scale the charts in a timely summer-time fashion...it would have had to have played out the way that it did.

There were 4 Beach Boys [out of 5] who were better singers than Berry and Torrence.  BUT Jan and Dean made the right move by recording timely songs in the midst of the hot, hip themes of the moment.  And out of all of that...skateboarding is still a 'thing' as well.  They recorded at least 12 songs which Brian had a hand in...and Roger Christian wrote with Jan too.  For awhile [maybe 18 months in total] they picked the right songs to record and they did it while the subject matter was 'happening'.  Then they stopped...the Beatles appeared on North American shores [and airwaves] and they slowly but surely went out with the tide.

But for a year and a half they mattered...and MC'ing the TAMI show suggests that THAT isn't just an opinion.  They were well enough thought of that they rode that specific wave.  'Here they come'.../then off they went.
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« Reply #145 on: March 04, 2018, 09:01:38 AM »

That reminds me of being at a party years ago, and somebody asked a friend of mine -- "Hey do you listen to Jan & Dean?" and my buddy said, "Nah, but believe me, I listen to plenty of OTHER shitty music."

This, of course, includes the songs at least co-written if not just plain written by Brian plus the ones Roger contributed to?  And the few Brian vocally participated in at the studio?  So even though, in some cases they were using Brian's blueprint, they were "shitty"?  Man!!!  You're a little too rough for me.  Jan and Dean were fun.  No fun allowed here?  Wasn't Brian into humour? [and 'fun'?...hence Party...along with Cassius vs. Sonny and all of 'that' album filler/time wasting tripe.]  And wasn't that nasal 'thing' part of the 'sound' for a couple of years?  Sure it wore thin but it was part of the fun as well.  I'll rescind what I said previously...The Beach Boys had 5 better singers.  Mike's voice was more musical that that of either Jan's OR [especially] Dean's.   

Back in 1964 I never thought to go somewhere and try surfing.  That said ... I did affix some roller skate wheels to the bottom of a rectangular wooden board and go racing down a freekin' asphalt hill wearing only pants, a tee-shirt and a pair of sneakers.  Pads?  Helmet?  Gloves?  No way.  Jan and Dean didn't wear that 'poop'.  We went on a high school exchange excursion down to Rochester when I was in grade 11.  Somehow I got linked up with some kids from the school there who thought they'd take me to 'their' hill just to give it a whirl. [and, they thought, to scare the living bejesus out of me.]  I never mentioned that I'd done this 'stuff' back in Toronto.  Down I went as jaws dropped simultaneously.  T'was all a part of the soundtrack so I'm not gonna dump on Jan and Dean just because Brian wasn't a full time member of their duo.  "Shitty"?  Trying to discredit Brian here are we?  Not I.  He nailed it.  And as a result so did Jan and Dean...at least for awhile.

So they weren't the Beach Boys.  Big deal.  No one else was either...try as they might.  [Back in the USSR?  Really?  Not even close.]  That doesn't mean that the Beatles were "shitty" too does it?  W/O Brian there are  P L E N T Y  of Beach Boys recordings which don't hit the bottom rung of his lowest water marks either.  Doesn't necessarily make them all "shitty".  They're just not as good.

----------------------------------------------------

Oh and as for Barbara Ann...I really dislike the Dean sound in there.  I think it detracts from the over-all qualitative potential of the recording.  Not in a million years would I have kept that in the mix...but old "dog ears" heard it working...and presto!!!...he was right.  [as per usual Mike...and Howie]
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« Reply #146 on: March 04, 2018, 09:28:19 AM »

No officers of the Jan and Dean fan club in this thread. Ha ha ha ha BB just in another league overall than Jan and Dean but personally I like  Deadmans Curve, Little Old Lady, Ride the Wild Surf and Surf City more than anything on Surfin Safari and most of Surfin USA . Just my preference.

That's not necessarily fair as all of those songs came AFTER Brian and the Boys had recorded both the Surfin' Safari and the Surfin' USA lp's.  The studio expertise Brian brought to the table grew in leaps and bounds with each passing release.  Same too of most others in the 'biz'.  So ...  technically speaking ... the songs you're comparing to the Beach Boys first 2 albums have advanced techniques working in their favour.  [and they also have progressing assistance from Brian to help spur them to higher heights.]
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« Reply #147 on: March 04, 2018, 11:03:16 AM »

I bought into that as well. I think every book out there has pretty much said that. It stands to reason that it’s false though. Back then, Brian had the clut to have the final say.
But not enough clout to stop Capitol from releasing his mono stuff in Duophonic..
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« Reply #148 on: March 04, 2018, 11:24:28 AM »

I bought into that as well. I think every book out there has pretty much said that. It stands to reason that it’s false though. Back then, Brian had the clut to have the final say.
But not enough clout to stop Capitol from releasing his mono stuff in Duophonic..

Neither did The Beatles up until Sgt Pepper, in terms of how the music was mastered or mixed for stereo and mono. It was Capitol's way of being able to sell mono and stereo copies of the same albums, and at this time (mid 60's) a stereo album cost a dollar or so more than the same mono copy. For Sgt Pepper, Emerick and Martin attached a memo when they sent the finished mix to EMI's mastering department demanding it be mastered exactly the same as they turned it in. Mono and stereo, with no excessive EQ or rejiggering. I believe that was the first time they had to clout to do so.

Capitol's mastering dept. was a little different to say the least.
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« Reply #149 on: March 04, 2018, 11:57:00 AM »

I hear a big difference in production on those two songs, regardless of Morgan or Capitol, and regardless of who produced them—a different sound using the same players (Beach Boys). But I still love the originals.

Spector was an influence, for sure, as I said. He had his own sound and style. But I would argue they weren't "Phil's musicians." I think that's one of the fallacies of modern music journalism. They were not unique to his productions. The union players pre-dated that era, as did the union itself. Jan, as an example, began working with those musicians in 1958 (Joe Lubin's productions) and was leading recording sessions with those musicians by late 1961 and early '62.

The union players in Hollywood were everyone's musicians.

Jan had a different sound than Spector, and the signature sound Jan began developing in March 1963 was dense and sophisticated, but still not the Wall of Sound.


A few comments and some questions for discussion:

The players Phil used were among hundreds in the union book. All you had to do if you wanted a drummer was check who was available and either through a contractor you'd hire or on your own, you could put in a call and hire them. Drummers alone, there were dozens if not a few hundred names for hire. Same with guitarists and whoever else. But the point with Spector is that the same basic core group of musicians he was using regularly became the same core group Brian and Jan would start using when their productions warranted those larger groups. It's no accident Hal and Earl were often the drummers, Billy, Carole, Tommy, Ray, Glen were on guitars, and the list goes on.

They were not random choices, and they were far from the only competent players available to hire. Yet both Brian and Jan seemed to be hiring the same core players as Spector was using. I don't see that as coincidence as much as a clue that they were trying to do things in their productions similar if not the same as what Phil was doing.

I still come back to the fact that for those first few years, The Beach Boys were a self-contained band who played on the records and also were the same core players you'd see at a live show. Like The Beatles, for those first few years with few exceptions the BB's and Beatles played the majority of instruments you heard because they were a band. Jan and Dean obviously were not a band, nor did they have a core backing band. So the necessity existed for Jan to hire players to play on the sessions, more than it being an aesthetic or forward-thinking choice. And when both Jan and Brian started advancing and needing more textures and instruments for what they wanted to do, they hired nearly the same players Phil had been using, where once again the union book had many others to choose from.

Mark, you also made a comment earlier about Jan copying his own parts from the score for the players, and using the "best" copyists in Hollywood when more parts needed to be extracted.

In that case, Jan wasn't doing anything that wasn't standard practice. Nearly every session where a large number of parts needed to be copied would be sent to a copy house. In the case of the artists, area, and time period we're talking about, the go-to place was run by Bob Ross (not the painter, lol). In those days the copying was done using onion skin, that's how primitive it still was. And there were writers who did that kind of grunt work for Bob Ross' copy house when they were working their way up. Among them, a young Jimmy Webb if I recall. So it wasn't as much Jan using the best because of anything other than that's how it was done. And in terms of the meticulous scores Jan would write, that was how he worked. Other producers and arrangers worked differently. It reminded me of the "Philly Soul" sound in the 70's, coming out of Philadelphia International studios. Gamble and Huff would come in with sketches and head arrangements, where they'd do what Brian would do and get the players grooving on different things and develop it that way, often no more than a chord chart with some specific hits notated. Thom Bell used to come in with a briefcase full of copied parts and a full score with every note indicated to be played. Point is, both ways worked and Philly had an amazing string of hits from Gamble/Huff and Bell in the 70's. There was no better way nor more merit or kudos to either one based on how they ran their sessions because both were charting hit after hit coming out of Philly. Some wanted each note written, others wanted to see where the group of players would take the sketch.

One more point: Earlier you mentioned Brian's productions outside the Beach Boys as not having chart success. Also, how Jan had a producer's contract under his agreement with Adler, or Liberty, or whoever it was. My question is this: If Jan had a contract as producer, did he try to produce any artists outside J&D, or was he ever contracted to do so? If he did, what was the success of Jan's productions? If it's relevant to mention how Brian's outside productions stiffed on the charts, it's relevant to ask what if anything did Jan produce outside J&D that had success in the 60's when he had such a producer contract?

That's another very specific point where I think Brian was trying to emulate Spector whose whole gig was producing a stable of artists rather than one group or entity. At the end of '63 I believe he even had a separate publishing company set up with Mike for this purpose of doing what Spector was doing with Philles records and all his productions that included publishing and songwriting. I'd suggest Brian was actually going for it and taking in outside artists and projects where he could do what Spector did and produce (and write) for a number of artists outside the Beach Boys. he put it aside but never gave it up, and that was the impetus for forming Brother at the end of '66 into '67.

Question: What and when was the first session where Jan used the Bill Putnam studios, United or Western, for his productions?

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