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Author Topic: Dean Torrence influence on Brian Wilson  (Read 45785 times)
Joel Goldenberg
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« Reply #100 on: March 02, 2018, 11:00:57 AM »

First of all, according to Mark Moore's book, Jan shouldn't have been eligible for the draft at that point as he was still recovering from his movie set train accident, his leg wasn't 100 percent healed, and the draft board finally realized that, perhaps on the day of Jan's car accident. (One thing that amazes me is that Jan had several car accidents post-1966 and emerged without a scratch).
Regarding J and D's music, there's a lot of it that I would put on a "Joel's favorite music" mix tape, such as hits (Surf City, Sidewalk Surfin'-the opening of which I play over and over again, Dead Man's Curve, Ride the Wild Surf), album cuts or lesser hits (I Found A Girl, and especially It's As Easy as 1, 2,3) and at least one album (Batman, for the skits, not the music).
And yes, Jan was getting a little twisted by 1965-66, but I love one product of that: A Beginning From An End: Great musically, and a very twisted take on Dead Man's Curve.
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Howie Edelson
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« Reply #101 on: March 02, 2018, 11:04:41 AM »

I'm saying "who are YOU???" -- because you're admonishing me as if you KNOW me.

You should've read that as:

1. Don't put words in my mouth.
2. Don't compare me with Donald Trump.
3. Don't comment on my appearance to make a point (are you checking out pics of my kids TOO???)

2800 posts and you don't know how to discuss this like an adult and keep it on the up and up???


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« Reply #102 on: March 02, 2018, 11:25:09 AM »

Guys, please don’t do this. I genuinely like both of you but I really don’t care to see this.
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« Reply #103 on: March 02, 2018, 11:25:55 AM »

I'm saying "who are YOU???" -- because you're admonishing me as if you KNOW me.

You should've read that as:

1. Don't put words in my mouth.
2. Don't compare me with Donald Trump.
3. Don't comment on my appearance to make a point (are you checking out pics of my kids TOO???)

2800 posts and you don't know how to discuss this like an adult and keep it on the up and up???




I gave a mea culpa and you refused. This is noted. I don't KNOW anyone on this board.

Secondly, don't talk about anybody's kids. Don't make it about that. I have a daughter and I don't think that kinda stuff is useful in making a point. I don't find it amusing to be compared to a predator. If you have got a problem, private message me. Otherwise drop it. I'm willing to have a dialogue with you, but sense you'll be too cool for that.
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joe_blow
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« Reply #104 on: March 02, 2018, 01:16:54 PM »

Why bring politicians into this? Maybe you are too lazy to look deeper. The truth is, Trump has often used those same convulsive gestures to mimic the mannerisms of people, including himself, who are rattled and exasperated.

Why couldn't the mainstream media look this up?  I guess it doesn't fit your narrative.
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Chocolate Shake Man
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« Reply #105 on: March 02, 2018, 01:24:37 PM »

Why bring politicians into this? Maybe you are too lazy to look deeper. The truth is, Trump has often used those same convulsive gestures to mimic the mannerisms of people, including himself, who are rattled and exasperated.

Why couldn't the mainstream media look this up?  I guess it doesn't fit your narrative.

Quite right. The narrative should be that Trump's terrorism campaign is killing civilians in record numbers and consequently, he should be brought before an international tribunal and condemned for international war crimes. I agree that his little "impressions" are debatable but his status as a war criminal isn't.
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« Reply #106 on: March 02, 2018, 03:00:40 PM »

Ok this has gotten out of hand. Let’s bring this back on topic. It’s close to running its course anyway but let’s st least try to bring it back and be more civil as well
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Chocolate Shake Man
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« Reply #107 on: March 02, 2018, 03:19:42 PM »

Well, on topic, I do want to say that Jan & Dean have never much caught my attention but I do think it's not a great idea to evaluate music in terms of its "coolness" and how much "cool people" like it. I think that's a particularly dangerous evaluation criteria when one is a Beach Boys fan.
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« Reply #108 on: March 02, 2018, 04:20:11 PM »

As Jan Berry was in Medical School had he hinted at what he was planning to do after graduation? Was he planning to continue concentrating on music or would it be more of a hobby
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"(Brian) got into this really touching music with songs like 'In My Room', and 'Good Vibrations' was amazing. The melodies are so beautiful, almost perfect. I began to realize he was one of the most gifted writers of our generation." - Paul Simon

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« Reply #109 on: March 02, 2018, 06:15:16 PM »

All this thread needs is Rocky Pamplin...
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« Reply #110 on: March 02, 2018, 08:43:51 PM »

Well, on topic, I do want to say that Jan & Dean have never much caught my attention but I do think it's not a great idea to evaluate music in terms of its "coolness" and how much "cool people" like it. I think that's a particularly dangerous evaluation criteria when one is a Beach Boys fan.

This 100%.

As to Dean Torrence's influence on BW, is it true that Dean suggested they record Barbara Ann?  That's something I guess.  I mean, I personally can't stand the song but it was a big hit for them so...  And it's fair to say Brian liked Dean as a graphic designer.
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« Reply #111 on: March 02, 2018, 09:55:15 PM »

Well, on topic, I do want to say that Jan & Dean have never much caught my attention but I do think it's not a great idea to evaluate music in terms of its "coolness" and how much "cool people" like it. I think that's a particularly dangerous evaluation criteria when one is a Beach Boys fan.

This 100%.

As to Dean Torrence's influence on BW, is it true that Dean suggested they record Barbara Ann?  That's something I guess.  I mean, I personally can't stand the song but it was a big hit for them so...  And it's fair to say Brian liked Dean as a graphic designer.

Good points
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« Reply #112 on: March 02, 2018, 10:22:00 PM »

Why bring politicians into this? Maybe you are too lazy to look deeper. The truth is, Trump has often used those same convulsive gestures to mimic the mannerisms of people, including himself, who are rattled and exasperated.

Why couldn't the mainstream media look this up?  I guess it doesn't fit your narrative.

Quite right. The narrative should be that Trump's terrorism campaign is killing civilians in record numbers and consequently, he should be brought before an international tribunal and condemned for international war crimes. I agree that his little "impressions" are debatable but his status as a war criminal isn't.
What civilians has he killed?War crimes? Do you know how many were bomber under Obama? Sad man. Way to deflect the proven false reporting and create new rubbish.
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« Reply #113 on: March 03, 2018, 12:02:32 AM »

No more politics in this thread, please
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NateRuvin
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« Reply #114 on: March 03, 2018, 01:03:38 AM »

Currently trying to read this and figure out how we went from Dean Torrence to Donald Trump?  Huh

Let's just enjoy the music everyone  Cool Guy
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guitarfool2002
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« Reply #115 on: March 03, 2018, 01:25:39 AM »

Well, on topic, I do want to say that Jan & Dean have never much caught my attention but I do think it's not a great idea to evaluate music in terms of its "coolness" and how much "cool people" like it. I think that's a particularly dangerous evaluation criteria when one is a Beach Boys fan.

This 100%.

As to Dean Torrence's influence on BW, is it true that Dean suggested they record Barbara Ann?  That's something I guess.  I mean, I personally can't stand the song but it was a big hit for them so...  And it's fair to say Brian liked Dean as a graphic designer.

Good points

The story is that Jan And Dean were asked by Brian to be part of the "Party" he would be recording for the "Party!" album, but their record company refused to allow it unless contracts were signed and a bunch of other stuff happened. So J&D declined the offer. But the day Brian was in the studio cutting tracks for Party, Jan and Dean were recording in the same complex, in a different studio room. There was something that needed to be fixed at that J&D session, a break was called, and Dean said he was going over to visit the Beach Boys session across the way. According to Dean, Jan told him not to sing.

Dean shows up at the BB's session. They want to do a tune. They start discussing which tunes they could do, which songs they knew. Dean said Barbara Ann because everyone knew it, he had cut it with Jan earlier, and they started running it down, checking the key, getting a structure, etc.

Dean was singing with the "group", part of the background vocals, lower harmonies, as Brian did falsetto lead. Brian told him to come over to his mic and sing the falsetto lead with him. So he did. And that's the sound of the record. A dual, double-falsetto lead vocal. One element that helped make it a hit on the radio - that strong falsetto cutting through.

The reason why they did that song is also because Dean told them he only had a small amount of time to sing with them, because he had to go back to the session Jan was doing across the way. Like, 15 minutes and he had to leave. So they picked an easy and familiar song they all knew.

It wasn't a case of Dean calling Brian or anyone else and saying "Guys, if you cut this Regents song that Jan and I covered back in '62, you'll have a smash hit record!". It was a spur of the moment choice that everyone there already knew, it was a basic song, and it was done because Dean only had a brief break from his session to sing with the Beach Boys before he had to split. And he was originally not going to double the falsetto until Brian asked him to join him at the lead mic.

There is *a lot* of misinformation about that song going around. One is that Capitol "forced" Brian to release it as a single. No - Capitol wanted product from Brian and the BB's, so the Party album was what they got. And a Capitol exec who was assigned to Brian and the band tried to talk Brian out of releasing Barbara Ann as a single. Talked the song down, talked down the recording, said it wouldn't look good next to The Beatles, etc after Brian played them the acetate. Brian took the record, got up to walk out of the man's office, held up the acetate of Barbara Ann, and told him "this is our next single" as he walked out. That exec never worked directly with Brian again on BB's releases.

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« Reply #116 on: March 03, 2018, 01:29:00 AM »

I feel like some portion of BB fans are so apt to hate on J&D because people (outside of devoted fans of the genre) associate J&D songs in general with being kind of hokey, tongue-in-cheek teenybopper/childish stuff, and Their Favorite Band that they've devoted so much time to is NOT LIKE THAT, OKAY?!  NOW CHANGE THE SUBJECT.

If you catch the vocal inflection that I tried to convey through my keyboard....
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« Reply #117 on: March 03, 2018, 01:36:11 AM »

I may be one of the few that actually loves Barbara Ann. It's the sound of a band and friends jamming in the studio and having a blast, informal yet with a catchy groove and that dual falsetto lead, and I think the reason why listeners connected with it was that spirit and vibe came through the speakers and people connected. I'll say that having Dean and Brian do that falsetto together was a terrific decision that helped make the record cut through, along with the stops and starts where Mike's bass cuts through. So, credit to Dean for suggesting it! And they finished in time for him to return to whatever Jan was cutting that day.
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"All of us have the privilege of making music that helps and heals - to make music that makes people happier, stronger, and kinder. Don't forget: Music is God's voice." - Brian Wilson
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« Reply #118 on: March 03, 2018, 02:44:37 AM »

I love Barbara Ann as well. Always did, but even moreso once I heard it in context on the Party! album. From 'baa baa black sheep, have you any wool?' to the warbling, nearly drunken outro to the "Thank you Dean". It sounds spontaneous, energetic, fun and impossibly full. Kudos to Dean as Barbara Ann was a great choice.
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« Reply #119 on: March 03, 2018, 04:45:15 AM »

Why bring politicians into this? Maybe you are too lazy to look deeper. The truth is, Trump has often used those same convulsive gestures to mimic the mannerisms of people, including himself, who are rattled and exasperated.

Why couldn't the mainstream media look this up?  I guess it doesn't fit your narrative.

Quite right. The narrative should be that Trump's terrorism campaign is killing civilians in record numbers and consequently, he should be brought before an international tribunal and condemned for international war crimes. I agree that his little "impressions" are debatable but his status as a war criminal isn't.
What civilians has he killed?War crimes? Do you know how many were bomber under Obama? Sad man. Way to deflect the proven false reporting and create new rubbish.

I'll send you a PM with the info.
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« Reply #120 on: March 03, 2018, 06:18:39 AM »

The amount of hatred spewed here truly amuses me.

No one has to like the music. There’s certainly nothing wrong with disliking the music. But the context for what was happening in that era with regard to Jan Berry is crucial—and that context is sorely lacking on this board and among Beach Boys fans in general.

Early on, Jan had two main mentors in Joe Lubin and Lou Adler (and Adler had only recently learned the ropes himself while working for Keen Records and Bumps Blackwell). And it was Lubin who set Jan on his path within the Hollywood studio system. From day one with Jan & Arnie in 1958 Jan worked with and observed the best R&B musicians in the business—Earl Palmer, Rene Hall, Plas Johnson, Ray Johnson, Ernie Freeman, and others. And they would all go on to record for Jan & Dean.

In September 1961, at the age of 20, Jan was signed as both a songwriter and record producer to a major New York City production company, Nevins-Kirshner Associates (Al Nevins and Don Kirshner). A month later, using the best musicians in Hollywood, Jan produced a stellar “Girl Group” track for Pixie called “I’m Dying To Give You My Love.” He co-wrote, arranged, and produced the song. Jan wrote the music while Don Altfeld contributed to the lyrics. And while the track remained unreleased, “I’m Dying To Give You My Love” featured many of the arrangement and production hallmarks that would become commonplace on Jan’s later productions for Jan & Dean. Ever wonder what inspired the Intro to “Dead Man’s Curve”? Wonder no more . . . it was one of Jan’s own compositions from 1961.

As a staff songwriter and producer for Nevins-Kirshner, Jan received generous advances against royalties, and he began getting official label credit as an arranger for Lou Adler’s productions, both for Jan & Dean and for outside artists. Nevins-Kirshner brokered Jan & Dean’s contract with Liberty Records.

By that time Jan’s home studio at Eleven-Eleven Linda Flora Drive in Bel Air was decked out with thousands of dollars’ worth of recording equipment, and he had become comfortable working in the Hollywood studio system. In December 1962, at the age of 21, Jan took over the production reins for Jan & Dean, and assumed complete creative control of the act.

In the spring of 1963 Nevins-Kirshner was acquired by Screen Gems-Columbia Music. Screen Gems absorbed and renewed all three of Jan’s contracts, and that’s when he really started making money. Jan’s production royalty alone was substantial. Screen Gems was obviously tied to the film industry, and they employed Jan to write music for the films Ride the Wild Surf and The New Interns (both by Columbia Pictures). The company also employed Jan to write, arrange and produce music for other artists in the Screen Gems family—outside of Jan & Dean.

It’s not a contest, folks. It’s not about being equal or unequal. These are cold, hard facts. Brian Wilson was indeed influenced by Jan as a record producer, and as an industry insider who could help Brian learn the ropes of the system—a fact which takes nothing away from Brian. Take Brian’s word for it.

Both Jan and Brian were influenced by Phil Spector. Jan and Spector began their careers in the same year, 1958, and Jan’s first hit preceded Spector’s by about four months. Brian observed Spector in the studio from a distance, for the most part. Brian was never a member of Spector’s inner circle. But Jan and Brian were friends, and they spent time with each other in the studio. Jan even included Brian as a paid musician on a few sessions for Jan & Dean tracks. It’s documented.


Unlike Jan, Brian was not signed to a major entertainment company as a producer. In fighting Capitol Records for production autonomy, Brian had to soak up all he could in his quest to officially take the production reins from the likes of Nick Venet.

Another thing . . . Roger Christian never left Jan Berry. They were close friends, and Roger worked far more with Jan than he ever did with Brian. Roger co-wrote “You Really Know How To Hurt A Guy” with Jan and Jill Gibson in 1965. And Jan and Roger wrote together throughout the 1970s and into the 1980s.

Roger was not a musician and contributed lyrics only. When Jan wrote songs with Roger Christian and Don Altfeld, Jan wrote the music while the others contributed words.

Lou Adler was the one who brought Jan and Brian together officially as songwriters—and by working with Jan Brian automatically forfeited any publishing, because Jan’s Screen Gems contracts forbade it. But Brian got a nice songwriting royalty.

Jan really admired Brian’s talents, and he learned a lot from Brian. They made a strong songwriting team, but Jan also co-wrote a string of Top-30 hits without Brian.

Most of Jan’s original music scores from the ‘60s still exist. They are remarkable documents that preserve his authentic arrangements. The bass lines in the scores are the bass lines you hear on the records. Obviously the same is true for brass, woodwinds, and strings. The drum parts are also written out note-for-note. Jan even served as his own copyist at times, generating the individual charts for the musicians from his master score. In other cases he hired the best copyists in Hollywood to generate the charts from the scores.

It’s a given that Jan didn’t have the natural gifts that Brian had. But Jan brought his own formidable strengths to their collaborative efforts. Brian’s collaborations with Jan were Brian’s only successful venture outside of the Beach Boys. Brian’s compositions and productions for Bob & Sheri, the Honeys, Sharon Marie, the Survivors, the Castells, Paul Petersen, and Glen Campbell did not chart—and they were all released on major labels (Capitol and Warner Bros.) between 1962 and 1965, when Brian was at the height of his powers. So Jan clearly brought something to the table . . . (and no, Murry Wilson didn’t have the industry power to single-handedly kill all of Brian’s outside releases).

Jan & Dean had a short career. And with the main guy, Jan Berry, doing it part-time, it’s a wonder they had as many hits as they did. The Beatles and the Beach Boys were much bigger during that time, and it goes without saying that they’re more important acts from today’s standpoint. But in their time and place, ’58 to ’66, Jan & Dean were a successful Rock ‘n Roll act—something Bruce Johnston never hesitates to point out.

“Dead Man’s Curve” is in the Grammy Hall of Fame. Jan & Dean have their place in the grand scheme of it all.
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« Reply #121 on: March 03, 2018, 06:21:17 AM »

Well said Mark and GF!
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« Reply #122 on: March 03, 2018, 06:51:08 AM »

Currently trying to read this and figure out how we went from Dean Torrence to Donald Trump?  Huh


Maybe some here have the DTs.
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« Reply #123 on: March 03, 2018, 10:28:15 AM »

Well, on topic, I do want to say that Jan & Dean have never much caught my attention but I do think it's not a great idea to evaluate music in terms of its "coolness" and how much "cool people" like it. I think that's a particularly dangerous evaluation criteria when one is a Beach Boys fan.

This 100%.

As to Dean Torrence's influence on BW, is it true that Dean suggested they record Barbara Ann?  That's something I guess.  I mean, I personally can't stand the song but it was a big hit for them so...  And it's fair to say Brian liked Dean as a graphic designer.

Good points

The story is that Jan And Dean were asked by Brian to be part of the "Party" he would be recording for the "Party!" album, but their record company refused to allow it unless contracts were signed and a bunch of other stuff happened. So J&D declined the offer. But the day Brian was in the studio cutting tracks for Party, Jan and Dean were recording in the same complex, in a different studio room. There was something that needed to be fixed at that J&D session, a break was called, and Dean said he was going over to visit the Beach Boys session across the way. According to Dean, Jan told him not to sing.

Dean shows up at the BB's session. They want to do a tune. They start discussing which tunes they could do, which songs they knew. Dean said Barbara Ann because everyone knew it, he had cut it with Jan earlier, and they started running it down, checking the key, getting a structure, etc.

Dean was singing with the "group", part of the background vocals, lower harmonies, as Brian did falsetto lead. Brian told him to come over to his mic and sing the falsetto lead with him. So he did. And that's the sound of the record. A dual, double-falsetto lead vocal. One element that helped make it a hit on the radio - that strong falsetto cutting through.

The reason why they did that song is also because Dean told them he only had a small amount of time to sing with them, because he had to go back to the session Jan was doing across the way. Like, 15 minutes and he had to leave. So they picked an easy and familiar song they all knew.

It wasn't a case of Dean calling Brian or anyone else and saying "Guys, if you cut this Regents song that Jan and I covered back in '62, you'll have a smash hit record!". It was a spur of the moment choice that everyone there already knew, it was a basic song, and it was done because Dean only had a brief break from his session to sing with the Beach Boys before he had to split. And he was originally not going to double the falsetto until Brian asked him to join him at the lead mic.

There is *a lot* of misinformation about that song going around. One is that Capitol "forced" Brian to release it as a single. No - Capitol wanted product from Brian and the BB's, so the Party album was what they got. And a Capitol exec who was assigned to Brian and the band tried to talk Brian out of releasing Barbara Ann as a single. Talked the song down, talked down the recording, said it wouldn't look good next to The Beatles, etc after Brian played them the acetate. Brian took the record, got up to walk out of the man's office, held up the acetate of Barbara Ann, and told him "this is our next single" as he walked out. That exec never worked directly with Brian again on BB's releases.




Never knew that info in the last paragraph!
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« Reply #124 on: March 03, 2018, 10:32:03 AM »

I feel like some portion of BB fans are so apt to hate on J&D because people (outside of devoted fans of the genre) associate J&D songs in general with being kind of hokey, tongue-in-cheek teenybopper/childish stuff, and Their Favorite Band that they've devoted so much time to is NOT LIKE THAT, OKAY?!  NOW CHANGE THE SUBJECT.

If you catch the vocal inflection that I tried to convey through my keyboard....
Dude, chill. I don’t care for them because I just don’t care for the music. Hell, it took me a long time to even get the early BB music. Just my opinion.
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