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Author Topic: Dean Torrence influence on Brian Wilson  (Read 45763 times)
the captain
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« Reply #25 on: February 27, 2018, 01:35:39 PM »

Great post. I agree entirely. Several years back I wrote a “defense of mediocrity “ or something, probably on The Record Room, dealing with some of those ideas. It actually might be somewhere here, too.
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« Reply #26 on: February 27, 2018, 01:48:11 PM »

That reminds me of being at a party years ago, and somebody asked a friend of mine -- "Hey do you listen to Jan & Dean?" and my buddy said, "Nah, but believe me, I listen to plenty of OTHER shitty music."
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« Reply #27 on: February 27, 2018, 01:51:02 PM »

LOL
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« Reply #28 on: February 27, 2018, 07:50:00 PM »

I'm trying to remember how or when it started happening, but there seemed to be a lot of over-inflating of Jan & Dean and specifically how it related to Brian and the Beach Boys to the point where it didn't serve Jan or Dean anything to keep reading absurdities about Brian stealing his production ideas from Jan or whatever else was being said. And I also remember reading a discussion or argument that "Jan And Dean Meet Batman" was on par with if not a direct influence on what Brian was doing with Smile. That one always makes be laugh because it's absurd, but I digress.

Ultimately, and not to take away from J&D, take a look at their bigger hits or the ones most people today would name if asked, and on several of the most familiar Brian was directly involved. Brian was a better songwriter.

Production wise, I thought Brian's records had more punch and were very "full sounding", yet didn't mask or bury certain key elements in the mix, especially mixing in mono for AM radio. Some of Jan's techniques to my ears at least were trying to load too much sound onto the tape and losing some of the punch in the process. Spector and Levine's "Wall" obviously had that punch too but was done in different elements and textures. That's just me.

But if anything was an influence, especially vocals and falsetto, it was The Four Freshmen with Bob Flanigan singing falsetto, not Dean. You hear some of those classic Freshmen records from the 50's, it's too obvious to even argue where Brian got his influence in terms of group vocals and arrangements. Obvious enough with just a single listen, even the falsetto has the same character in the voice as Brian would later apply on BB's records.
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Kid Presentable
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« Reply #29 on: February 28, 2018, 01:03:18 AM »

I love how lots of BB fans love getting the opportunity to throw shade at J&D.  To make a pro wrestling analogy it reminds me of how Andre the Giant used to bully Big John Studd and other big men backstage in the WWF.  
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« Reply #30 on: February 28, 2018, 03:51:28 AM »

I've always enjoyed Jan & Dean as being into satire way before it was a thing.  The DGAF-ness of a lot of their output charms the hell out of me, though in these more PC times it hasn't worn well, understandably.  They have moments ("Submarine Races" and a lot of BATMAN) that are flat-out hysterical, and it helps that they are firmly in on the joke.

Also full props to Jan for being a wunderkind in the studio.  A lot of those productions are quite impressive particularly considering Jan was a medical student at the time.  That said I'm gonna pile on a bit because I've often found his compositions sound very forced and unorganic.  Some of the chord changes he favors - those jarring modulations that come out of nowhere, chord changes that just leap from one place to another without any logical link to one another - are certainly interesting but they never strike me as being very musical.  They often seem haphazard, as opposed to when Brian would go into a different key on a bridge and the hairs would stand up on the back of your neck, and you knew darn well that was by design (not all of them, mind you - "Little Old Lady From Pasadena"'s key shifts are sublime).  I don't know if that makes any sense - it just feels sort of like music made by a brilliant student in a composition class, as opposed to an actual musician, in terms of how the music is put together.  Some of the orchestrations feel that way as well.  I'm probably not making any sense.

I probably rate Jan & Dean slightly higher than most of the folks on this thread but I also firmly agree that their influence has been overstated.
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« Reply #31 on: February 28, 2018, 06:11:00 AM »

I love how lots of BB fans love getting the opportunity to throw shade at J&D.  To make a pro wrestling analogy it reminds me of how Andre the Giant used to bully Big John Studd and other big men backstage in the WWF.  

It all goes back to what I mentioned in my previous post, which is that it's doing J&D a disservice to try to overinflate their output or influence.

I think we're seeing a bit of shade because it's being posited that J&D were a major, noteworthy influence on Brian, and/or that J&D are being referenced in any way as a peer on the same level as Brian or the BBs.

I don't think we'd see any shade if someone just mentioned that J&D had some good songs.

I file the "Jan and Dean and the Beach Boys were peers" argument in the same general category as the "Derek Taylor secretly slipped the Beatles 'Smile' tapes in 1967" argument.

I don't see J&D as some helpless dog being kicked by BB fans. If anything, they've been prominently regarded to the point of eating up pages in ESQ over the years, etc.
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« Reply #32 on: February 28, 2018, 06:18:27 AM »

I've always enjoyed Jan & Dean as being into satire way before it was a thing.  The DGAF-ness of a lot of their output charms the hell out of me, though in these more PC times it hasn't worn well, understandably.  They have moments ("Submarine Races" and a lot of BATMAN) that are flat-out hysterical, and it helps that they are firmly in on the joke.

I would imagine that J&D satire/humor works for some folks. It has never worked for me. It has always come across to me more as a "don't give a s**t" attitude rather than clever satire or humor.
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« Reply #33 on: February 28, 2018, 06:20:01 AM »

Nailed it, Jude.

The Beach Boys had only ONE peer -- The Beatles.
To rate the idiocy of Carnival Of Sound to, say, REVOLVER is absurd.

I'm not saying DON'T listen to Jan & Dean's dork rock comedy LP's, but seriously -- go get high, have sex, CREATE something.
Or just listen to BRIAN WILSON and leave the novelty stuff to the out-of-touch 8-year-olds in 1964.
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« Reply #34 on: February 28, 2018, 06:38:10 AM »

I love J and D's singles and some of the deep cuts from that era (my favorite J and D song is "Anaheim, Asuza, & Cucumonga Sewing Circle, Book Review..."). Yet, as much as I tried, I don't really get the rock satirist vibe that their partisans push. Frank Zappa did rock satire much better than Jan Berry did.

I think Jan gets singled out as a Brian influence because he, unlike Spector, didn't completely blow Brian off.
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« Reply #35 on: February 28, 2018, 07:03:47 AM »

I'd think it's safe to say that I like Jan and Dean more than does Howie! 
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« Reply #36 on: February 28, 2018, 08:19:19 AM »

Whatever one thinks of the direct influence, Brian and and J&D worked together. Brian didn't collaborate with many other songwriters or producers, so the fact he did so with those guys should mean something to the larger history of both groups' careers. Clearly J&D were part of the scene, and they were friendly and attractive folks to know.
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« Reply #37 on: February 28, 2018, 08:48:30 AM »

because he, unlike Spector, didn't completely blow Brian off.

I must have missed that in all the books. Now have mental image though which will haunt me forever.
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« Reply #38 on: February 28, 2018, 10:07:35 AM »

I don't totally get the territorial parts of this thread.  I think there is room for most perspectives to be accommodated. 

I think that you can probably nail down a half dozen or so "direct influences" on Brian as he was mastering his craft and fully realizing what he would become.  Spector, Freshmen, etc.  I think Jan Berry was probably at the bottom of that list- like 5% compared to FF's and Beatles' 30%.  Or whatever, just making a gross estimate.  Nonetheless to even be on that list is super impressive.

When I compare the two now it is like comparing Gilligan's Island to Mr. Ed.  But maybe to experience both in the present rather than past sense, the gulf wouldn't have seemed as big as it does now and Mr. Ed wouldn't look so primitive.  Just a thought.
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« Reply #39 on: February 28, 2018, 10:23:51 AM »

I love how lots of BB fans love getting the opportunity to throw shade at J&D.  

It's sort of the BB version of how metal / hard rock elitists throw shade at the cynically so-called hair metal bands. 
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« Reply #40 on: February 28, 2018, 10:47:30 AM »

There was a relatively specific theory/thesis proposed in the original post; not just a "is J&D as good as the BBs?" sort of thing.

You have now numerous experts/biographers/writers who have studied this stuff and interviewed Brian and the actual BBs, including specifically asking about Jan Berry, telling you that any significant influence on Brian from Jan, and any significant implication that the two men or two bands were true peers, is vastly overstated.

Not that it's non-existent, but just that it's a minor blip in the overall story. Brian was friends with Jan to some degree, and they co-wrote a few tunes together. I'm sure Brian listened to J&D records back then. I'm sure he pulled, in some sense, all sorts of things from the whole spectrum of what he listened to. And, knowing Jan and co-writing stuff with him, what he drew from J&D was of course more significant than some random record he may have listened to back then.

But in the pantheon of huge, noteworthy influences during the 60s pop/rock music scene, there has occasionally been a bit of an overblown supposition put forth by some that, at least in those formative years, Jan and Brian were equals/peers and/or that Brian drew heavily from Jan's work. I don't believe this is the case.

These alleged/supposed influences should be assessed and reassessed from time to time to make sure an inaccurate narrative isn't taking hold. For instance, take the Beatles and their digesting the work of Brian. Sometimes it's implied that all of the Beatles were influenced and heavily listened to a lot of Brian's work. But no, it's pretty much mostly McCartney, and it's mostly in relation to "Pet Sounds." It's not that simple, but a narrative that suggests that like George Harrison was listening endlessly to the "All Summer Long" album is most likely pretty inaccurate (to use a hyperbolic example of course).

The most interesting tidbit in the story of the crossing paths of the two bands is probably Murry (supposedly) being pissed off that "Surf City" got to #1.

I'm not down for just kicking an artist unprompted, for no reason whatsoever. But has everyone here actually listened, say, to Jan and Dean's vocals? Jan was serviceable but kind of monotone, and Dean's "falsetto" was often Adrian Baker-status. As I've said before, they're *very lucky* they get as much attention being lumped in with the Beach Boys as they do.
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« Reply #41 on: February 28, 2018, 10:53:39 AM »

Read through the J&D bio on AllMusic, and see if some of the claims or statements seem a little off.

https://www.allmusic.com/artist/jan-dean-mn0000213165/biography
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« Reply #42 on: February 28, 2018, 11:03:35 AM »

There was a relatively specific theory/thesis proposed in the original post; not just a "is J&D as good as the BBs?" sort of thing.

You have now numerous experts/biographers/writers who have studied this stuff and interviewed Brian and the actual BBs, including specifically asking about Jan Berry, telling you that any significant influence on Brian from Jan, and any significant implication that the two men or two bands were true peers, is vastly overstated.

Not that it's non-existent, but just that it's a minor blip in the overall story. Brian was friends with Jan to some degree, and they co-wrote a few tunes together. I'm sure Brian listened to J&D records back then. I'm sure he pulled, in some sense, all sorts of things from the whole spectrum of what he listened to. And, knowing Jan and co-writing stuff with him, what he drew from J&D was of course more significant than some random record he may have listened to back then.

But in the pantheon of huge, noteworthy influences during the 60s pop/rock music scene, there has occasionally been a bit of an overblown supposition put forth by some that, at least in those formative years, Jan and Brian were equals/peers and/or that Brian drew heavily from Jan's work. I don't believe this is the case.

These alleged/supposed influences should be assessed and reassessed from time to time to make sure an inaccurate narrative isn't taking hold. For instance, take the Beatles and their digesting the work of Brian. Sometimes it's implied that all of the Beatles were influenced and heavily listened to a lot of Brian's work. But no, it's pretty much mostly McCartney, and it's mostly in relation to "Pet Sounds." It's not that simple, but a narrative that suggests that like George Harrison was listening endlessly to the "All Summer Long" album is most likely pretty inaccurate (to use a hyperbolic example of course).

The most interesting tidbit in the story of the crossing paths of the two bands is probably Murry (supposedly) being pissed off that "Surf City" got to #1.

I'm not down for just kicking an artist unprompted, for no reason whatsoever. But has everyone here actually listened, say, to Jan and Dean's vocals? Jan was serviceable but kind of monotone, and Dean's "falsetto" was often Adrian Baker-status. As I've said before, they're *very lucky* they get as much attention being lumped in with the Beach Boys as they do.

Just correcting and adding to Surf City - It was the song Surfin USA which Brian played for Jan and Dean, who said they wanted to record it. Brian said no because it was already slated for the Beach Boys to release. So he played them Surf City, which he had not finished but most of which was apparently there. Jan finished it up, and recorded it in March 1963. But by that time, Surfin USA had already come out that same month.

So in terms of a "chicken or the egg" scenario, Brian had already been contributing to J&D and had actually been paving the way for the type of music that would put J&D higher up on the charts.

It was after Jan met Brian and Brian started co-writing and contributing to the duo's songs (which included Brian's collaborators like Roger Christian) that they really found success beyond where they had been. So if there were an influence, Brian came into the mix and J&D started to have bigger hit records than they had before.
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« Reply #43 on: February 28, 2018, 11:17:17 AM »

Man, I just don't get this thread at all. I've always been a fan of J&D. I consider "Dead Man's Curve" to be one of the greatest records ever made.
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« Reply #44 on: February 28, 2018, 11:24:38 AM »

Man, I just don't get this thread at all. I've always been a fan of J&D. I consider "Dead Man's Curve" to be one of the greatest records ever made.

"Dead Man's Curve" being a good record (I dig it too) is a separate issue from framing whether Jan was a big influence on Brian.

The thread began with a theory/supposition/open question, and many are saying they disagree. It doesn't mean J&D fans should stop digging them.

Yes, in the process of discussing the relationship (or lack thereof) between Jan and Brian and between the two bands, some of us have also taken the opportunity to make more general comments about J&D's output. But I think it's still about providing more context. Having some good records isn't the same as being a true peer of the BBs and Brian, and there *has* been a general tone/tenor in some cases over the years in magazines, articles, and fan discussions that overemphasizes J&D in relation to Brian and the BBs and the influences involved.
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« Reply #45 on: February 28, 2018, 11:35:07 AM »

It's good to use discussions like this to help correct some of the claims that have been made regarding Jan & Dean in terms of influence on Brian Wilson and/or The Beach Boys. Some of it has been overstated, and some of it just isn't 100% correct. Look at the most basic chart listings of Jan & Dean's releases on something even as simple as Wikipedia, and you'll see they did not start having big hit records until Brian Wilson got involved. Surf City was the breakthrough. The numbers do not lie. They literally 'rode the wild surf' onto the top 40 after the Beach Boys started charting hits about surf and hot rods and kicked that door open. The influence in terms of Brian liking how Jan cut records and watching some of the sessions is one thing, but the way in which some accounts have described it isn't as accurate as it could be.
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« Reply #46 on: February 28, 2018, 11:38:54 AM »

Hasn't Brian himself gone on record saying that Jan Berry taught him how to cut clean sounding records? I think I've seen that claimed before, but I don't remember the actual quote and/or source.
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« Reply #47 on: February 28, 2018, 01:14:10 PM »

guitarfool2002, I would disagree with your statement about Jan & Dean not having hits. "Jennie Lee", "Baby Talk", and "Linda" all were moderate hits. Jan had a knack for making great records, and I think he would have grown as a producer without Brian. Just my opinion though.

On the topic of Jan & Dean, I finally found this clip today, of the infamous gig with Mike, Bruce, Dean, David, and Glen and the football game. Pretty awesome footage, too bad they are miming. It seems to me like Glen was taking the lead on Surf City which is pretty cool . It's also pretty cool to see Glen Campbell playing Surf City, since he was one of the guitarists on the originial recording. Full circle moment. I think a Mike, Bruce, Dean, David, Glen combo would have made a great Post-Carl group. Al should have been there too! However, I think Mike & Bruce have done a fine job sporting The Beach Boys name since the late 90's. Especially now, with Mike's current group, they really do the name justice.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-fhEwJ1q84&index=5&list=FLjLWTx2xziJVn8NZOaLBz5Q&t=0s
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« Reply #48 on: February 28, 2018, 01:31:45 PM »

I found that '98 Super Bowl gig lame at the time, not even knowing the context, and in retrospect it's even harder to celebrate it considering it was literally the signpost to Al being sh**canned from the band.
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« Reply #49 on: February 28, 2018, 01:48:56 PM »

With Dean performing with Mike throughout the 80's and 90's, I wonder if he was invited to be part of Mike's Beach Boys, and perhaps turned it down because he was still touring with Jan until 2004.
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