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Author Topic: Dean Torrence influence on Brian Wilson  (Read 45761 times)
NateRuvin
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« on: February 26, 2018, 06:30:36 AM »

I'd say that Jan & Dean and The Beach Boys had an equal role in terms of developing what we know as the California Sound. As Mark A. Moore points out in the introduction to his book, Jan Berry had been producing West Coast pop hits since 1958, whereas The Beach Boys didn't start until the end of 1961. But aside from Jan Berry's production chops, I've always wondered if Brian Wilson had heard some of Jan & Dean's songs, specifically those that utilized Torrence's falsetto, and took inspiration from them. Dean Torrence had began to sing with his signature falsetto with songs like "Baby Talk", "Barbara Ann", and most notably, "Linda". The last song, in my opinion, is one the earliest examples of what we know call the California Sound. Lead falsetto vocal, harmony stack, and the Wrecking Crew in full effect. We know that Brian's biggest influence to use falsetto was The Four Freshman, but I can't help but think that Jan & Dean, and specifically Dean Torrence's falsetto voice, influenced his arrangements.
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Jim V.
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« Reply #1 on: February 26, 2018, 08:48:39 AM »

Nah. I think it was the Four Freshman and the Four Seasons that did more for Brian's falsetto.
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Jon Stebbins
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« Reply #2 on: February 26, 2018, 04:45:13 PM »

I'd say that Jan & Dean and The Beach Boys had an equal role in terms of developing what we know as the California Sound. As Mark A. Moore points out in the introduction to his book, Jan Berry had been producing West Coast pop hits since 1958, whereas The Beach Boys didn't start until the end of 1961. But aside from Jan Berry's production chops, I've always wondered if Brian Wilson had heard some of Jan & Dean's songs, specifically those that utilized Torrence's falsetto, and took inspiration from them. Dean Torrence had began to sing with his signature falsetto with songs like "Baby Talk", "Barbara Ann", and most notably, "Linda". The last song, in my opinion, is one the earliest examples of what we know call the California Sound. Lead falsetto vocal, harmony stack, and the Wrecking Crew in full effect. We know that Brian's biggest influence to use falsetto was The Four Freshman, but I can't help but think that Jan & Dean, and specifically Dean Torrence's falsetto voice, influenced his arrangements.
In my opinion...It is really a stretch to think that Jan & Dean were equal to the Beach Boys in any way, shape or form. J&D were a very minor blip on the cultural and artistic history of popular music, while the Beach Boys are GIANTS and in many ways in a class of their own. One eye-popping bit of evidence is that Jan & Dean had four LP's by the end of 1965 that had made the top 40, those four totaled 10 weeks (not each) but ten total weeks in the top 40. That's their career. By comparison...The Beach Boys had ten LP's by the end of '65 that had made the top 40, not THAT many more than J&D's four, BUT their ten totaled 196 weeks in the top 40, and they kept going with hundreds more weekly top 40 appearances in their future. Beach Boys 300+ appearances in the weekly top 40 of album sales, Jan and Dean 10. It's a gargantuan difference in sales and popularity. You might say, oh well, Jan & Dean were a singles band, you can check those numbers too and they are not close to being in the same league as the Beach Boys singles success. The truth is the people who bought records and went to concerts didn't really care very much for Jan & Dean when compared to the Beach Boys. It was a very unequal perception and reaction from consumers of music. So to say they were equal in developing a much loved sound that captured the world's attention and is still loved nearly everywhere just can't be true IMO. Jan & Dean had some success, they had some influence, they left a minor mark. The Beach Boys are among the greatest popular phenomenas and creative well springs the world has ever seen.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2018, 07:31:03 AM by Jon Stebbins » Logged
Howie Edelson
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« Reply #3 on: February 26, 2018, 04:56:52 PM »

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♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇
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« Reply #4 on: February 26, 2018, 05:09:24 PM »

I wasn’t too impressed with my (limited) exposure to Jan and Dean. A few of the songs I thought were ok but nothing really moved me
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SMiLE Brian
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« Reply #5 on: February 26, 2018, 06:15:38 PM »

Nice BW side project! Wink
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« Reply #6 on: February 26, 2018, 06:19:23 PM »

The only "Jan & Dean" I can even bear to listen to is post-accident Jan.
Fascinating stuff. "Natural High" -- I'm THERE.
That said -- I love READING about Jan Berry -- Mark's book was brilliant on every level. I devoured it. Incredible.
If only I could stomach their music.

I've really never understood ANY part of the allure of Jan & Dean's music. In my opinion during the most brilliant, groundbreaking decade in rock they were instantly out of date, shockingly unoriginal, tone-deaf, and supremely uncool. Silly gooses in the shadow of BRINGING IT ALL BACK HOME.

The only thing I can compare it to is in Beatles circles, how there are always a few dudes in the shadows who are REALLY, REALLY into Gerry Marsden or Billy J.
This is that.

Buffoon jock rock.
What a weird fetish.
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NateRuvin
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« Reply #7 on: February 26, 2018, 08:20:49 PM »

One thing you can't deny is Jan Berry's impact on Brian's productions. There's a huge difference in production quality from before and after Jan and Brian got in the studio together. Brian has even said that he learned a lot from watching Jan produce.

I didn't like Jan & Dean's music too much, until I began to dig a little bit deeper. For those who think they just made silly rock music, listen to songs like "When It's Over", "A Surfer's Dream", and "You Really Know How To Hurt A Guy".
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Howie Edelson
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« Reply #8 on: February 26, 2018, 08:46:50 PM »

Y'know what -- I do deny it.
It was Spector.
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Jon Stebbins
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« Reply #9 on: February 26, 2018, 10:09:14 PM »

Y'know what -- I do deny it.
It was Spector.
Spector is right.
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« Reply #10 on: February 27, 2018, 12:20:56 AM »

All this time I thought I was alone in feeling this way!
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Hickory Violet Part IV
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« Reply #11 on: February 27, 2018, 03:19:20 AM »

Y'know what -- I do deny it.
It was Spector.

Jan was one of  the first producers Brian observed working. Brian learnt about overdubbing from observing Jan Berry. More importantly, he observed Jan working with session musicians. Being a producer is not just about creativity and music, it's about people management and organisatinal skills. Seeing as Jan had a reputation for being nice to work for and Spector did not, I would say that Brian learnt this side of things from Berry.

Brian did not develop in a vacuum, by all accounts in the early days he was a sponge, soaking everything in. To say that Berry didn't have an influence on Brian as a mentor and early teacher is disingenious. 

And putting aside their music and cultural positioning, J&Ds music has an extremely polished sound. You don't hear that sort of clarity in instruments and particlarly drums in many recordings of that era. He played the studio well, particularly with overdubbing. Very similar to how Brian was putting stuff together in 63 - 64. Listen to the Fun Fun Fun sessions.

Far more Berry than Spector.

Spector didn't overdub all the instruments. 

Double tracking vocals as well. I'm not saying Berry invented the technique, but it was from Berry Brian first observed the practice that went on to define the Beach Boys sound as much, if not more than what he learnt from Spector.

Jan Berry was a huge influence on Brian Wilson as a producer.
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« Reply #12 on: February 27, 2018, 05:24:23 AM »

So much to learn.  From Berry, Spector, many others. But then there is the measuring and accounting in the mind in a way that is unique…and perhaps genius. That goes for arranging and producing and especially to the creation of melody. It may be that the most important influence on Brian…to this day…is the melody of “When You Wish Upon a Star.” The fleeting shapes and impulses therein. Then the unique geometry of his brain matter going further. Never to be explained fully. I often think of how Brian’s vocalizing in “Don’t Worry Baby” will always be the best version—the correct version. As when Sinatra would make a Rodgers and Hart song his own. As in “that’s how it must be done.”  For the artist, being “influenced” involves recognizing what one desires/accepts as well as what one does not desire/accept. Sumpin like dat.
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« Reply #13 on: February 27, 2018, 06:14:46 AM »

I think part of the thing with trying to wring some huge influence on the BBs out of J&D is that it speaks to the penchant many have for trying to frame something in a larger sense than is needed.

Not everything has to influential, game-changing, first-of-its-kind, etc.

There are some of those Beatles knock-off bands from the 60s that I occasionally enjoy listening to (although not coincidentally it's usually cases where they're recording some Lennon-McCartney castaway deemed not-good-enough for the Beatles).

I dig some J&D records as well. But it stops there. I was kind of excited a decade or so back when they put out that 2-disc set of Liberty singles, because I frankly didn't have much J&D beyond the old Capitol single-disc hits set. I couldn't get through it. I kept going back to the same core hits we all know, and the rest of the stuff was goofy and/or uninteresting.

Probably more grating for me is watching old J&D performance footage. They *always* have a look on their face like they started a music career for s**ts and giggles. Jan often has a smirk on his face like the whole thing is a joke.
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« Reply #14 on: February 27, 2018, 07:07:25 AM »

Jan and Dean never took themselves too seriously, but I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing.

And certainly Brian was influenced to some degree by Jan in particular.  Jan was making hits before Brian, and they hung out in the early days - I don't see how Brian could help but be influenced.  The Dean falsetto, not so much...
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NateRuvin
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« Reply #15 on: February 27, 2018, 07:07:37 AM »

Billy, I'm thrilled to hear you agree with me! I've been thinking this for years.
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« Reply #16 on: February 27, 2018, 10:46:37 AM »

Billy, I'm thrilled to hear you agree with me! I've been thinking this for years.
I seriously felt alone in this for a long time. I actually thought the issue was with me for not getting it. Hey Jude summed up my feelings rather well.
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« Reply #17 on: February 27, 2018, 10:53:00 AM »

One correction: Brian Wilson did not learn about overdubbing from Jan Berry. He was stacking his own vocals, often in Freshmen-style harmony, back in the Hawthorne music room and bedroom after Murry got him a reel-to-reel. Some of those tapes even survived, like the "Happy Birthday Freshmen" or whatever that was called. That's an example of Brian overdubbing on tape before he set foot in a pro studio or watched Jan Berry in a studio.
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« Reply #18 on: February 27, 2018, 11:08:52 AM »

Billy, I'm thrilled to hear you agree with me! I've been thinking this for years.

I'm confused as to what you guys agree on...
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« Reply #19 on: February 27, 2018, 11:19:56 AM »

Now I'm confused LOL
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« Reply #20 on: February 27, 2018, 11:50:32 AM »

Now I'm confused LOL

I took it that you were agreeing with Jon and Howie. I think Nate thought you were agreeing with his original post. Which, yeah, I guess is a little awkward.  LOL
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« Reply #21 on: February 27, 2018, 11:55:55 AM »

One correction: Brian Wilson did not learn about overdubbing from Jan Berry. He was stacking his own vocals, often in Freshmen-style harmony, back in the Hawthorne music room and bedroom after Murry got him a reel-to-reel. Some of those tapes even survived, like the "Happy Birthday Freshmen" or whatever that was called. That's an example of Brian overdubbing on tape before he set foot in a pro studio or watched Jan Berry in a studio.

Yeah, I'm not sure why one would think Brian would need to learn the basic concept of "overdubbing" from Jan Berry or anyone else. The moment he owned a sound-on-sound style tape recorder, he would have understood (and indeed executed) the basic concept of overdubbing.
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« Reply #22 on: February 27, 2018, 12:15:20 PM »

Now I'm confused LOL

I took it that you were agreeing with Jon and Howie. I think Nate thought you were agreeing with his original post. Which, yeah, I guess is a little awkward.  LOL

Yeah I was indeed agreeing with them LOL
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« Reply #23 on: February 27, 2018, 12:23:03 PM »

I was talking with Brian one time and we were discussing the winding down of Pet Sounds and the post-production of the album prior to release. I asked him what he remembered about Jan's accident, which was concurrent with Brian wrapping the project, and he couldn't remember ANY particulars: who told him, where he was, etc. Now, yes, it was then-40 years prior -- but Brian said, "Yeah, I remember hearing about it, but I don't actually remember it happening." I say this because there's this kind of decades-long BB fan revisionist theory that Brian and Jan were in some type of race, or that Brian deemed this guy a professional peer -- and it's just not true. I'm not saying that Brian didn't consider Jan a friend, but Jan Berry was VERY far off Brian Wilson's creative radar -- just another in a VERY long line of marginally talented dudes putting out crappy product via the outmoded label and studio system. To believe any different is to suspend reality. Read the stats that Stebbins posted.
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« Reply #24 on: February 27, 2018, 01:10:14 PM »

And I think sometimes by trying to hold an artist (or a particular work) up to some epic hugely-influential status does a disservice to that artist/material as well.

There are plenty of people from that era who made a cool record, or wrote a good song (or several), who absolutely deserve recognition. But it's more like "They wrote and recorded that single, that was a good single. I like that one", as opposed to making it like Brian was vacillating between Jan&Dean and the Beatles when looking at true peers.

It's like calling a good movie "the most amazing movie ever!", where then the reaction is going to be "well c'mon, it's not the most amazing ever, it's just pretty good", when if you come away saying "I liked that movie, that was a good one", then people can commiserate on how it's a good one.

It reminds me of people who say Emitt Rhodes was more talented than Paul McCartney. No. He made one *really great* album, and two okay albums, none of which measured up to McCartney's greatest work. But man, that first Emitt Rhodes album is REALLY good. Dude knocked out a little pop mini-masterpiece. Let's talk about it like that instead of saying his stuff was better than the White Album and Abbey Road.
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