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627241 Posts in 25170 Topics by 3581 Members - Latest Member: drummer_from_mars February 19, 2018, 11:26:41 AM
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Poll
Question: Which band's output do you prefer in 1970?
The Beach Boys - 35 (92.1%)
The Beatles - 3 (7.9%)
Total Voters: 38

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Author Topic: 1970: The Beach Boys vs. The Beatles  (Read 2080 times)
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« Reply #25 on: February 08, 2018, 10:51:46 AM »

Fair enough.   Like I said, to each their own.   But, his production style was very innovative for the time, and very influential to Brian Wilson. 
As they say. Is it "innovative" to YOU? If yes, tell exactly what makes you think it.
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« Reply #26 on: February 08, 2018, 11:09:53 AM »

Fair enough.   Like I said, to each their own.   But, his production style was very innovative for the time, and very influential to Brian Wilson. 
As they say. Is it "innovative" to YOU? If yes, tell exactly what makes you think it.

I think so because no other producer in rock/pop was doing what Spector was doing at the time.  And it had a huge influence on the works of The Beach Boys, Billy Joel, Meat Loaf, and Bruce Springsteen just to name a few. 

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« Reply #27 on: February 08, 2018, 11:23:22 AM »

See, I mean specific elements in it being "innovative". Let's forget about influences just this time. It's not the main question.
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« Reply #28 on: February 08, 2018, 11:32:20 AM »

See, I mean specific elements in it being "innovative". Let's forget about influences just this time. It's not the main question.

Specifically staking instruments to make that big sound.  It can turn a decent song into something epic.   Without Spector, for example, Be My Baby is a standard girl group pop tune.   With the "Wall of Sound," it's an opus. 

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« Reply #29 on: February 08, 2018, 11:43:17 AM »

How can a fan of the Beach Boys/Phil Spector not understand at least the fundamental aspects of what Spector brought to pop music? Brian Wilson's main deal in musical life was in many cases for periods of time about Phil Spector.

Can someone name a producer prior to Spector who regularly used the "wall of sound" (meaning a large in-studio sound with often multiple instruments doubled, etc.) effect and achieved success/hits with it?

There's room to argue whether maybe his work is overrated or overhyped I suppose. As Howie Edelson has said in the past, his work was/is more "timely" than "timeless." But to be incredulous as to the very general idea of Spector's most well known works being innovative if for no other reason than that "wall of sound" that influenced Brian, that makes absolutely no sense.

Spector's work on Harrison's "All Things Must Pass" is a further extension of that production ethos. Whether you love the sound of that album or find it annoying, it's definitely unique.

That being said, when it comes to 1970 and the Beatles and the LIB album, anyone who thinks Spector has any large hand in the *sound* of the "Let It Be" album beyond the orchestration on "The Long and Winding Road" would have to be pretty unfamiliar with the LIB album/sessions/project. Spector did little heavy lifting in working on the LIB album. His biggest stamp on the project beyond the infamous "Long and Winding Road" overdubs would have to be his laziness in *not* extensively going through the session tapes (the old narrative of Spector "wading though hours and hours" of LIB session tapes is not accurate) and picking inferior takes of several of the songs, and then using already-selected/earmarked takes and simply mixing them and mastering them for the LIB album.
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« Reply #30 on: February 08, 2018, 11:44:15 AM »

Specifically staking instruments to make that big sound.  It can turn a decent song into something epic.
You believe nobody else did it before? Regardless, the epicness falls flat. Besides, it's very samey.
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« Reply #31 on: February 08, 2018, 11:47:55 AM »

Innovative doesn't even equate directly to good. You can not care for something and still acknowledge that it's innovative. Spector innovated the "wall of sound" approach in the same way that the Beatles innovated use of a sitar on a pop record.

That is, someone may be able to find scattered examples of someone doing it prior (or contemporaneously), but part of the "innovation" is bringing it to the fore for people to hear.
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« Reply #32 on: February 08, 2018, 11:49:49 AM »

Specifically staking instruments to make that big sound.  It can turn a decent song into something epic.
You believe nobody else did it before? Regardless, the epicness falls flat. Besides, it's very samey.

Not to the same effect.  

Like I said, to each their own.   You can say that it's "samey."  Sure, it's a similar technique applied on a lot of the hits he produced, but the melodies of those songs are distinct.  

Different people hear different things.   I think his production style greatly enhanced many songs, and he also did some great work with John Lennon and George Harrison (as HJ noted, All Things Must Pass).   If you can't hear the greatness of Be My Baby, A Christmas Gift for You, or What Is Life, then that's your opinion.  
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« Reply #33 on: February 08, 2018, 11:55:35 AM »

Spector's 60s work, his work on solo Beatles product, and his work on LIB are three pretty different animals.

I'd liken his work on LIB to be almost more of a Boyd/Linett role, taking something that was already recorded and molding it into a product, sometimes remixing and maybe even occasionally overseeing an overdub here and there, but more of an "archival" role (the difference being Spector was doing "archival" work on something was 1 or 1 1/2 years old, and was attempting to present it as a "new" product rather than an archival release of course).

His 60s body of work is its own thing, and has been dissected by others in plenty of detail.

His work on the solo Beatles stuff varies wildly. Harrison's "All Things Must Pass" has that cavernous, reverb-laden sound, a kind of 1970 slightly modernized version of his 60s deal. His work with Lennon teetered between a slightly "wall of sound-ish" deal ("Instant Karma"), to something more like the LIB sound ("Imagine"), and then very sparse, dry stuff ("Plastic Ono Band").
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« Reply #34 on: February 08, 2018, 11:57:18 AM »

Brian Wilson's main deal in musical life was in many cases for periods of time about Phil Spector.
Read reply to KDS - I told him influence isn't main question. I asked what HE thinks about it, I didn't ask to list people influenced by Spector. It's just boring factoid, everybody read it.
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« Reply #35 on: February 08, 2018, 12:00:27 PM »

If you can't hear the greatness of Be My Baby, A Christmas Gift for You, or What Is Life, then that's your opinion.  
Yep. When people say they looove "Be My Baby" et al, it's opinion too. If majority likes some song (anything), doesn't mean it's factually great. Agree?
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« Reply #36 on: February 08, 2018, 12:01:38 PM »

Brian Wilson's main deal in musical life was in many cases for periods of time about Phil Spector.
Read reply to KDS - I told him influence isn't main question. I asked what HE thinks about it, I didn't ask to list people influenced by Spector. It's just boring factoid, everybody read it.

You asked for examples of Spector's innovation. You've been given some simple examples of such (and you can take ten seconds to go on Wikipedia to find many more examples).

Spector's "innovation" is a totally separate deal from whether *you* just don't like his stuff, and/or have some hangup for some reason about multiple influences that Brian Wilson has cited (Spector, Beatles).
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« Reply #37 on: February 08, 2018, 12:06:27 PM »

25 years into the internet and we're still stuck on explaining that someone's opinion is their opinion?

There's a very simple concept called objective analysis.

I like this, I don't like that. That's subjective. And if that's *all* you're interested in posting about, then have at it.

But when you pose an open question about Spector's "innovation" and ask for examples, that veers into more objective territory.

There are MANY articles out there (and some posts here) about Spector's innovations. There's always still going to be a subjective aspect to interpreting those historical facts about Spector. But if you're unwilling to acknowledge any innovation on the part of Spector, then we're pretty much into "it's your opinion that that's a fact!" territory, which is of course not conducive to any sort of discussion.

There are MANY musical artists/producers that I'd cite as innovative that *I* don't care for. But I can OBJECTIVELY ACKNOWLEDGE their innovations.
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« Reply #38 on: February 08, 2018, 12:12:29 PM »

Innovative doesn't even equate directly to good.
Yes, that's why at 1st I didn't understand why KDS brought "innovative" to the table.

Quote
That is, someone may be able to find scattered examples of someone doing it prior (or contemporaneously), but part of the "innovation" is bringing it to the fore for people to hear.
Interesting, didn't look at it like that.

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Spector's 60s work, his work on solo Beatles product, and his work on LIB are three pretty different animals.
"very samey" is directed to 60s artists' work. THAT'S samey.
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« Reply #39 on: February 08, 2018, 12:20:01 PM »

You asked for examples of Spector's innovation. You've been given some simple examples of such
Yes, KDS answered why he thinks it's innovative - staking instruments to make big sound. But 1st he talked about influences which I don't think is related to the question about what makes HIM think it's innovative. Is it not clear?

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Spector's "innovation" is a totally separate deal from whether *you* just don't like his stuff, and/or have some hangup for some reason about multiple influences that Brian Wilson has cited (Spector, Beatles).
Hangup, my foot. Again, it's just not the main question. I wanted to know the specific elements in it being innovative which is NOT THE SAME as influence. KDS then got it & replied with "big sound" post.
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« Reply #40 on: February 08, 2018, 12:29:41 PM »

If you can't hear the greatness of Be My Baby, A Christmas Gift for You, or What Is Life, then that's your opinion.  
Yep. When people say they looove "Be My Baby" et al, it's opinion too. If majority likes some song (anything), doesn't mean it's factually great. Agree?

I never said it was factually great.   In music, you can't quantify what is and what isn't great, which is the main flaw of the so called Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. 

I said "to each their own."
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« Reply #41 on: February 08, 2018, 12:33:03 PM »

25 years into the internet and we're still stuck on explaining that someone's opinion is their opinion?
I know right? But I'd seen elsewhere, including this board, if you dare say you dislike "Be My Baby", it's nothing special, boring, people would look down at this view adding "It's great!". As if it's huge fact that "Be My Baby" is great song when it's just their opinion. Let's face it, it is. I've big problem with people falsely thinking that if lots of people say this song is great, critics praise it etc, then it's factually indeed great. But guess what? Reviews critics give is opinions too.

Quote
I like this, I don't like that. That's subjective. And if that's *all* you're interested in posting about, then have at it.

But when you pose an open question about Spector's "innovation" and ask for examples, that veers into more objective territory.
What for do you explain this? It's discussion - me & KDS discussed Spector.
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« Reply #42 on: February 08, 2018, 12:37:39 PM »

I never said it was factually great.
I didn't say you did, you know. Read previous reply to HeyJude. There's many people who think their opinion is superior, present it as fact. Hence I said "Yep. When people say they looove "Be My Baby" et al, it's opinion too. If majority likes some song (anything), doesn't mean it's factually great. Agree?".

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In music, you can't quantify what is and what isn't great
This bit means you do agree.
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« Reply #43 on: February 08, 2018, 12:47:40 PM »

I never said it was factually great.
I didn't say you did, you know. Read previous reply to HeyJude. There's many people who think their opinion is superior, present it as fact. Hence I said "Yep. When people say they looove "Be My Baby" et al, it's opinion too. If majority likes some song (anything), doesn't mean it's factually great. Agree?".

Quote
In music, you can't quantify what is and what isn't great
This bit means you do agree.

Yes, basically, I agree to disagree about our opinions of the merits of Phil Spector. 

And that not all people who like Tears in the Morning are copycats. 

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« Reply #44 on: February 08, 2018, 01:59:57 PM »

Spector.

Auteur who redefined role of produder.

One of the first successful producers to use the studio as a creative instrument in it's own right.

Created works of phonography, i.e, recordings that were not merely concerned with capturing a live performance but were defined by the fact they were recorded 'experiences', autographical rather than allographical. This was alluded to in this quote from BW.

"I was unable to really think as a producer up until the time where I really got familiar with Phil Spector's work. That was when I started to design the experience to be a record rather than just a song."


This seismic change in how we thought about and approached recording was hugely influential, not just BW, but on everyone who followed.

Whether you like his recordings or not, you cannot deny his important place in recording history.
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« Reply #45 on: February 08, 2018, 09:28:03 PM »

To repeat, I didn't ask who Spector influenced. It's well-known/ well-written. I'm curious about single specific interest - what's inventive about Spector-producer? I discussed it with KDS initially, he made the mistake to bring up influences too but soon got what the actual question was. Influence & inventiveness is 2 different subjects.
It isn't denial but interest in knowing "his important place in recording history". Asking questions creates discussion. Which I did to get the clear fleshed out answer about Spector's inventiveness. The points in the last post add to the picture as well but, as I said, not Brian's/ everybody's influence by Spector.
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« Reply #46 on: February 08, 2018, 10:50:29 PM »

What is inventive is the sound of the record has now become the important thing, rather than the song or the performer. Up until now recordings had presented the illusion of reality, and though it was often heavily stylised, what was presented to the listener was something that could exist in the real world. With Spector this changes. When listening to the Wall of Sound it is often very difficult to seperate all the seperate instruments out from the overall sound. The implications for this on our relationship with recorded sound was HUGE. It is the noise coming out of the speaker that is important.

So whilst you can point to figures like Les Paul and Joe Meek before him, it is really in Phil Spector's hands that the studio completes its transition from technological tool to creative instrument.

What is inventive about Spector is how he approached the studio.

This resonates down to today.



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« Reply #47 on: February 09, 2018, 06:10:16 AM »

To repeat, I didn't ask who Spector influenced. It's well-known/ well-written. I'm curious about single specific interest - what's inventive about Spector-producer? I discussed it with KDS initially, he made the mistake to bring up influences too but soon got what the actual question was. Influence & inventiveness is 2 different subjects.
It isn't denial but interest in knowing "his important place in recording history". Asking questions creates discussion. Which I did to get the clear fleshed out answer about Spector's inventiveness. The points in the last post add to the picture as well but, as I said, not Brian's/ everybody's influence by Spector.

RR1, the question you ask is strange. The whole conversation reads like this (to me):

Poster 1: The atom bomb was terrible.
Poster 2: What was so terrible about it? Lots of things kill people.
Poster 1: It killed Thousands of people.
Poster 2: So what?  Candy kills thousands of people too. What's so important about the atom bomb?
Poster 1: Well it's terrible. That is a fact.
Poster 2: What is fact there? That is your opinion. I think candy has killed far more people. What is so special about atom bomb? Tell me specifically.
Poster 1: It has potential to destroy the whole planet.
Poster 2: I have never seen it destroy a whole planet. Again, why single you the atom bomb.
Poster 1: I didn't single it out. I was just making a statement.
Poster 2: Your statement singled out the atom bomb. Everyone always talks about the atom bomb like it has killed the most people in earth's history. Whenever I ask for specifics why or to defend their statement I get the same boring reasons.
Poster 1: Agree to disagree. The atom bomb WAS terrible.

Apply, rinse, and repeat.
 3D
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« Reply #48 on: February 09, 2018, 08:34:18 AM »

To repeat, I didn't ask who Spector influenced. It's well-known/ well-written. I'm curious about single specific interest - what's inventive about Spector-producer? I discussed it with KDS initially, he made the mistake to bring up influences too but soon got what the actual question was. Influence & inventiveness is 2 different subjects.
It isn't denial but interest in knowing "his important place in recording history". Asking questions creates discussion. Which I did to get the clear fleshed out answer about Spector's inventiveness. The points in the last post add to the picture as well but, as I said, not Brian's/ everybody's influence by Spector.

RR1, the question you ask is strange. The whole conversation reads like this (to me):

Poster 1: The atom bomb was terrible.
Poster 2: What was so terrible about it? Lots of things kill people.
Poster 1: It killed Thousands of people.
Poster 2: So what?  Candy kills thousands of people too. What's so important about the atom bomb?
Poster 1: Well it's terrible. That is a fact.
Poster 2: What is fact there? That is your opinion. I think candy has killed far more people. What is so special about atom bomb? Tell me specifically.
Poster 1: It has potential to destroy the whole planet.
Poster 2: I have never seen it destroy a whole planet. Again, why single you the atom bomb.
Poster 1: I didn't single it out. I was just making a statement.
Poster 2: Your statement singled out the atom bomb. Everyone always talks about the atom bomb like it has killed the most people in earth's history. Whenever I ask for specifics why or to defend their statement I get the same boring reasons.
Poster 1: Agree to disagree. The atom bomb WAS terrible.

Apply, rinse, and repeat.
 3D

Amen.
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« Reply #49 on: February 09, 2018, 11:55:37 AM »

Reply #46 - detailed info added.
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