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636494 Posts in 25450 Topics by 3621 Members - Latest Member: rickyroma August 18, 2018, 06:50:57 PM
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Poll
Question: Which do you think did better in 1966?
The Beach Boys
The Beatles

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Author Topic: 1966: The Beach Boys vs. The Beatles  (Read 2138 times)
B.E.
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« Reply #25 on: January 22, 2018, 12:45:22 PM »

But hey, have at it folks.

Thank you. Your objections are noted.
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« Reply #26 on: January 22, 2018, 01:36:17 PM »

I'm saying, have whatever discussion you want to, but maybe listen to Howie Edelson when he says this stuff is the "worst of fandom." He's a fan, and knows as much if not more about BOTH bands than anybody on this board, writes liner notes for the band's releases, *AND* has interviewed all of the actual guys. He's an expert and a good relative objective observer. Even if you don't agree that this is the worst of fandom, at least take a moment and try to understand what's being said here. Take *something* from it to understand why maybe this discussion is so uncool.

I did take exception to the comment about this being "the worst of fandom", especially in light of what transpired here sometimes public and sometimes in whatever methods of communication were used. Being involved firsthand in that kind of mess repeatedly, I was surprised to read this kind of discussion tagged as the worst, and not calling out Howie or anyone specifically but more as a general commentary: Where were such comments to push back when the "worst" was truly on display and playing out? I mean, people using a status as an expert or historian or whatever the label who were out to ruin people personally, groups of posters repeating things that were either outright lies or attempts to shade or even rewrite the actual, factual history of events surrounding the history of this band, and worse...It perhaps could have used some voices of knowledge and/or reason to nip all that garbage in the bud right at the source, and it's still upsetting to recall how many chose to remain silent and let a lot of destructive things happen, in some cases where good people had their names dragged through the mud and were slandered and blatant attempts to either rewrite or whitewash the history of this band were on public display. This included slandering band members and families, based on falsehoods and dirty rumors that were nothing close to the truth. So that's where I stand on the issue of calling out threads, and my reasons why I'm a little surprised to see it applied here rather than when the worst of the fandom was actively attempting to change history and fact and destroy other posters in the process.

HeyJude, itís funny that you think that there arenít many people on this forum trying to make it better. Well up until half a year ago, maybe less, this place was stagnant with monotonous posts about Mike Love being a dick. Then Watamushi starts his threads and polls that bring out a better aspect of the fandom: discuss the music! Thatís what weíre doing here. Again, youíre looking solely at the poll and thinking weíre all just going bananas because we think The Beach Boys Pet Sounds is better than Revovler. You feel pitting one album against another in a poll is embarrasing and pointless.

Ya know what, probably 100% of the people participating in this thread would agree that solely a POLL pitting Beatles albums against Beach Boys albums is pointless. But again, itís about the discussion that goes hand-in-hand with the poll. Is it a perfect system? Probably not! But Watamushi comes here, creates some great polls/threads, makes this place more positive in the process, and you have done nothing but complain about it - and yet you also vote and discuss in the threads that you think are making this place worse off.

You realize how much more positive this place has been lately because of threads like these?

All due respect to Howie Edelson, but I think heís very wrong saying this is the ďworst of the fandomĒ. Iíd say weíve all seen the worst of the fandom a couple years ago here, and it had nothing to do with some harmless banter about the Beatles.

Correct, the worst was indeed on display and had been especially since late 2012 when it ramped up considerably.

But I would disagree with the notion that the discussions here were stagnant with posts about Mike Love being a dick. I think that is a mischaracterization or an overstatement of what was going on. A lot of it was posters pushing back and responding when comments were made trying to either boost Mike Love's legacy or credit him far beyond where credit would be deserved, and often using some pretty warped logic and reasoning to do so...if not outright lies and mistruths. And if such comments are made, and called out by some who just might know the facts or be able to put together a rational, fact-based list of reasons *why* said comments may be off-base or simply wrong versus disagreeing on opinions, it's hardly a case of posting that Mike is a dick solely for the sake of doing so. I don't recall too many unprompted posts trying to bash Mike or his legacy that did not come in response to someone trying to rewrite the history or state facts that are simply not true and can be proven so. And there is room to poke fun as well, if it becomes a sterile environment where parody and cracking some jokes while not crossing the lines becomes considered bashing or something similar, that's not where things should be either. And knowing this firsthand, some interested parties were actively trying to sterilize this forum in that way, where anything negative about band members but specific to one in particular should be a reason to ban a member who posted it.

I'm generally not a person into taking polls or even the notion of being able to "like" posts on message boards to where someone gets elevated because they have 325 likes and that makes them...better? More important? Nope. That's fine on Facebook, but not message boards or forums. But if discussing certain releases back-to-back leads to some good discussion, that is I'd think the goal...discussing, debating, conversing. It all works out, although maybe a different structure as has been suggested could accomplish similar goals.
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ďSome people think you have to knock somebody down in order to build yourself up, I donít look at it that way. To the mentality that likes to disparage other people, I say perhaps you should get a life. Itís just wrong thinking in my opinion and I donít mind saying that.Ē - Mike Love

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« Reply #27 on: January 22, 2018, 02:34:22 PM »

Quote
But I would disagree with the notion that the discussions here were stagnant with posts about Mike Love being a dick. I think that is a mischaracterization or an overstatement of what was going on.

Definitely an overstatement on my part. And I also felt like during that time there were trolls just trying to stoke flames. When people defend Mike to the most irrational levels I will call it out. But I feel like lately it hasnít even been an issue, a lot due to these types of threads.
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« Reply #28 on: January 22, 2018, 05:45:44 PM »

Well THIS HERE THREAD certainly has been hijacked.  As one of the folks here who KNOWS that Mike is a "dick"...cause he just keeps on keepin' on when it comes to proving it...and to have sit here for the years that foolishness [the same type employed by white-house spokespersons] championed him as some kind of big talent and key component to the history of all things musically great in the world in the 60s and 70s and when was that piece of sh*t Summer in Paradise recorded?...There came a time when the record needed to be set straight...and set in stone so that wee fairies couldn't fly in when no one was looking and re-write the truth.

Now this thread is one about what?  Pet Sounds and Revolver?  No it isn't.  What an ever-expanding pile of fly attractant THAT is.  But I guess when you're losing...by a country friggin' mile...as you  should...it's time to call upon the oh-so-tiresome white house spokesperson ploy of pivoting.

The world has voted on this...and the world has done so with a degree of regularity.  Seems to me that Pet Sounds is always WAY up there when folks and experts alike pick the all time best albums.  Revolver is great...think I called it my favourite Beatles album of them all...but it sure as shyte ain't Pet Sounds.  And just when has there ever been valid discussions which would seriously suggest that Day Tripper is a better hit single, song or creative production than Good Vibrations?  It hasn't happened because it is none of those things.  The poll currently sits at something in the vicinity of 1966 Beach Boys 25 - 1966 Beatles 2.  THAT seems about right smack dab TOES ON THE NOSE to me and the Beach Boys so obviously deserve to take the 1966 'battle' for creative supremacy that any other argument is laughable.

Next year [meaning 1967] that will NOT be the case.  AND...Next year [meaning 2019] Mike Love will still be a dick.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Note...It has been pointed out that I put down Day Tripper here.  Should have been Paperback Writer.  My bad. Embarrassed
« Last Edit: January 23, 2018, 04:55:11 AM by Add Some » Logged

"Add Some...Music...To Your Day.  I do.  It's the only way to fly.  Well...what was I gonna put here?  An apple a day keeps the doctor away?  Hum me a few bars."   Lee Marshall [2014]

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« Reply #29 on: January 22, 2018, 07:28:45 PM »

I think there is a tendency among some posters to take threads like this one with some degree of hypersensitivity. It's not a c*ck fight. We're tossing starving pitbulls into a pit to fight to the death. It's just a fun speculation thread. Like two friends speculating who would win in a fight between Superman and The HULK. It's just a good angle to discuss what we love.
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« Reply #30 on: January 22, 2018, 10:05:21 PM »

Well THIS HERE THREAD certainly has been hijacked.  As one of the folks here who KNOWS that Mike is a "dick"...cause he just keeps on keepin' on when it comes to proving it...and to have sit here for the years that foolishness [the same type employed by white-house spokespersons] championed him as some kind of big talent and key component to the history of all things musically great in the world in the 60s and 70s and when was that piece of sh*t Summer in Paradise recorded?...There came a time when the record needed to be set straight...and set in stone so that wee fairies couldn't fly in when no one was looking and re-write the truth.

Now this thread is one about what?  Pet Sounds and Revolver?  No it isn't.  What an ever-expanding pile of fly attractant THAT is.  But I guess when you're losing...by a country friggin' mile...as you  should...it's time to call upon the oh-so-tiresome white house spokesperson ploy of pivoting.

The world has voted on this...and the world has done so with a degree of regularity.  Seems to me that Pet Sounds is always WAY up there when folks and experts alike pick the all time best albums.  Revolver is great...think I called it my favourite Beatles album of them all...but it sure as shyte ain't Pet Sounds.  And just when has there ever been valid discussions which would seriously suggest that Day Tripper is a better hit single, song or creative production than Good Vibrations?  It hasn't happened because it is none of those things.  The poll currently sits at something in the vicinity of 1966 Beach Boys 25 - 1966 Beatles 2.  THAT seems about right smack dab TOES ON THE NOSE to me and the Beach Boys so obviously deserve to take the 1966 'battle' for creative supremacy that any other argument is laughable.

Next year [meaning 1967] that will NOT be the case.  AND...Next year [meaning 2019] Mike Love will still be a dick.

Go on any message board NOT dedicated to the Beach Boys and I guarantee you the BBs would not win a "1966 poll" 25 to 2. THAT'S embarrassing. Calling it "laughable" to even consider the Beatles on par with the BBs in 1966 is embarrassing. I'd say the same thing if the reverse were taking place on a Beatles board.

Also, "Day Tripper" is 1965, not 1966.

I'm embarrassed for this board reading stuff like this. This is all fanboy stuff. DC fans saying Justice League is better than the X-Men.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2018, 10:12:49 PM by HeyJude » Logged

THE BEACH BOYS OPINION PAGE IS ON FACEBOOK!!! http://www.facebook.com/beachboysopinion - Check out the original "BEACH BOYS OPINION PAGE" Blog - http://beachboysopinion.blogspot.com/
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« Reply #31 on: January 22, 2018, 10:10:35 PM »

I think there is a tendency among some posters to take threads like this one with some degree of hypersensitivity. It's not a c*ck fight. We're tossing starving pitbulls into a pit to fight to the death. It's just a fun speculation thread. Like two friends speculating who would win in a fight between Superman and The HULK. It's just a good angle to discuss what we love.

I'd like to think this board, which has cracked some great BB mysteries and uncovered all kinds of amazing facts and has some great, knowledgeable fans, can aspire to more than "which superhero would win in a fight?" or "My Dad can beat up your Dad" territory.

I was going to say this is farcical "Kirk vs. Picard" stuff, but it's actually more analogous to a Star Trek board doing a "Star Trek vs. Star Wars" thread. "Hey look, Star Trek won the poll 37-to-1. There's your proof!"
« Last Edit: January 22, 2018, 10:15:45 PM by HeyJude » Logged

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« Reply #32 on: January 23, 2018, 02:04:29 AM »

HeyJude, Iím beginning to think that youíre just pissed off that there are some people in this world who prefer The Beach Boys music over the Beatles music. I mean, youíre claiming these threads where we pit one artist against another are embarrassing for the forum, yet you yourself in this thread claim ď"Revolver" still wins.Ē. Up until Howie Edelson made his statement that this is the ďworst of the fandomĒ you were heavily involved in the debate/conversation that you are now fighting against. And now you are both fighting against and participating in the very conversation you want to see scrubbed from this forum. You were so involved at one point you started suggesting different rules for the poll/thread:

ďI think you have to pull back and add a little objectivity to the mix, something a bit beyond what *you* personally like. Otherwise, what's the point of asking a *BEACH BOYS* message board which band they like more? There's a point at which saying every year that "the Beach Boys spoke to my soul and the Beatles didn't" is going to get a bit redundant. Ē

I mean, youíre telling Beach Boys fans to partially set aside the personal reasons why they like an album in a poll/thread about personal preference just so the Beatles have a better chance in that poll/thread. And then when Howie says this is the worst of the fandom you switch gears and just want the poll threads gone because they are embarrassing (while still writing that the Beatles are winners). Now you seem to be hellbent that these threads just consist of fist pumping ďthereís your proof!Ē ďMy Beach Boys are better than your BeatlesĒ when there is solid and easily attainable proof that this most certainly isnít the case (I think one person made one comment like this and its being taken way out of proportion). Mostly everyone has had nothing but great things to say about both bands, even if they prefer one over the other.

I guess my point is that it appears youíre just pissed off that there are people here who prefer some Beach Boys music over some Beatles music, and youíre willing to say and do whatever to keep those opinions to a minimum. Is that the case? I really donít know exactly what your intentions are with the continuous negative posts regarding these poll threads, but given what I wrote above (regarding you fighting against and yet still participating in these polls/threads) it seems pretty clear that its the case.

We canít all be cracking mysteries. I wish to hell that I were the great Stephen Desper but Iím not, so Iím not able to uncover too many facts about my favorite band. But I am able to share my opinions in some threads. Again, Iím willing to concede that these poll threads may not be perfect, but the idea behind them is sound: Watamushi is helping get a lot of fans listening to BOTH bands, talking about both bands, telling anecdotes about when they first heard Revovler, Please Please Me, etc. I really donít see how thatís the worst of the fandom. Nor do I see why itís worth all the negativity youíre bringing to the table. We can still crack mysteries, Desper recently posted a link to his Friends album that Iíve been excited to watch and comment on. This poll/thread is one tiny aspect of a big forum.
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« Reply #33 on: January 23, 2018, 04:24:55 AM »

Jude...You just go ahead and be embarrassed.  I'm not.  Hence the vote.  My collection of Beach Boys music...group and Wilson/Jardine solo material is WAY larger than that of the fabbies.  2 - 3 times larger.  NOT embarrassed about that either.  A Beatles web site might vote differently.  Back in '67...in regard to '66 the folks in Merry Olde went with the Beach Boys too.  Why?  'Cause THAT'S the way it was...in real time.

Have a cookie.
------------------

Oh and as for the comment 'credited' to Howie.  THAT'S a pile of  bull-moose excrement.  I'm sure Howie isn't saying that people who prefer Beach Boys music should vote for the Beatles just 'cause they think that the Fabulous 4 enjoyed more chart success.  THAT would be the worst of 'fandumb.'

Have another cookie. Roll Eyes
---------------------------

Also... I meant Paperback Writer...not Day Tripper.  It wouldn't have mattered which song though as Good Vibrations would POUND it.

Any cookies left?  Have another one. Evil
« Last Edit: January 23, 2018, 04:40:03 AM by Add Some » Logged

"Add Some...Music...To Your Day.  I do.  It's the only way to fly.  Well...what was I gonna put here?  An apple a day keeps the doctor away?  Hum me a few bars."   Lee Marshall [2014]

Donald  TRUMP!  ...  Is TOAST.  "What a disaster."  "Overrated?"... ... ..."BIG LEAGUE."  "Lots of people are saying it"  "I will tell you that."   Collusion, Money Laundering, Treason.   B'Bye Dirty Donnie!!!  Adios!!!  Bon Voyage!!!  Toodles!!!  Move yourself...SPANKY!!!  Jail awaits.  It's NO "Witch Hunt". There IS Collusion...and worse.  The Russian Mafia!!  Conspiracies!!  Fraud!!  This racist is goin' down...and soon.  Good Riddance.  And take the kids.
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« Reply #34 on: January 23, 2018, 05:33:04 AM »

I think there is a tendency among some posters to take threads like this one with some degree of hypersensitivity. It's not a c*ck fight. We're tossing starving pitbulls into a pit to fight to the death. It's just a fun speculation thread. Like two friends speculating who would win in a fight between Superman and The HULK. It's just a good angle to discuss what we love.

I'd like to think this board, which has cracked some great BB mysteries and uncovered all kinds of amazing facts and has some great, knowledgeable fans, can aspire to more than "which superhero would win in a fight?" or "My Dad can beat up your Dad" territory.

I was going to say this is farcical "Kirk vs. Picard" stuff, but it's actually more analogous to a Star Trek board doing a "Star Trek vs. Star Wars" thread. "Hey look, Star Trek won the poll 37-to-1. There's your proof!"

 Dead Horse

If you'd like to continue, by all means, continue.   If talking down to every poster on these Beach Boys v Beatles threads and going on long diatribes to "prove" that your opinion should be taken as fact in some sort of weird effort to educate us "dullards" who like to participate in fun comparison discussion makes you feel better about yourself, go ahead.   By all means, beat that dead horse and educate us on the "right" way to be music fans. 
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« Reply #35 on: January 23, 2018, 06:24:55 AM »


I was going to say this is farcical "Kirk vs. Picard" stuff, but it's actually more analogous to a Star Trek board doing a "Star Trek vs. Star Wars" thread. "Hey look, Star Trek won the poll 37-to-1. There's your proof!"

Who is going to use this thread to validate their opinion?  LOL

Even if someone does, it reflects more on them than it does on fun threads like this.
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