Mike & Bruce's setlists appeal to broad range of fans...casual to hardcore

[Cam Mott]

Cam, don't let the number of bookings or album sales be your guide. Most of the Beach Boys CDs that sell well are old material that's been repackaged. And according to my quick count the Grass Roots will have played more 2006 dates by year end. And I'd bet almost as many people go to see Papa Doo Run Run as the M&B show. I'm not knocking either band by any means, but I believe the Beach Boys (meaning the M&B show)  "respect" is a reflection of their past, not a recognition of their present.

Jim, perpetual popularity of their albums and the continual popularity for bookings across decades into the now do indicate the strength of their legacy to me, I don't see any other way to see it. Their legacy is respected, maybe not with a handful of the thimbleful of fans who frequent these boards,  but in the world imo.  Respect in the present for what has been given, what else is legacy?

[Jim McShane]

Cam, don't let the number of bookings or album sales be your guide. Most of the Beach Boys CDs that sell well are old material that's been repackaged. And according to my quick count the Grass Roots will have played more 2006 dates by year end. And I'd bet almost as many people go to see Papa Doo Run Run as the M&B show. I'm not knocking either band by any means, but I believe the Beach Boys (meaning the M&B show)  "respect" is a reflection of their past, not a recognition of their present.

Jim, perpetual popularity of their albums and the continual popularity for bookings across decades into the now do indicate the strength of their legacy to me, I don't see any other way to see it. Their legacy is respected, maybe not with a handful of the thimbleful of fans who frequent these boards,  but in the world imo.  Respect in the present for what has been given, what else is legacy?

Cam, I'm sorry but that has to be the most tortured, twisted logic I've ever seen.

A reminder - here is what you said:

The Beach Boys are still one of the most respected bands in the world as evidenced by their bookings and TV shows and tributes and album sales.

So are The Beatles - that doesn't mean they are doing anything good now. You didn't say people respect the BBs legacy, you said they "are still one of the most respected bands in the world". Not were - are. Quite a difference...

According to Merriam-Webster, the definition of legacy is "something transmitted by or received from an ancestor or predecessor or from the past".

So if you want to say the BBs have a wonderful legacy, that's true and I think there would be near universal agreement both on and off this board. But having a legacy, a past, isn't the same as earning respect and adding to that legacy today.

Brian and his band are adding to Brian's legacy quite regularly, and they've earned a ton of respect based on what they've done in the last few years. The same can't be said about the M&B show - except to say the name "Beach Boys" has survived in some form or fashion for a real long time. Of course, so have Peter, Paul & Mary. 

[Cam Mott]

Jim, were and is.

I'm not torturing logic, I guess you and I just disagree or we aren't talking about the same thing.

[Dancing Bear]

Brian and his band are adding to Brian's legacy quite regularly, and they've earned a ton of respect based on what they've done in the last few years. The same can't be said about the M&B show - except to say the name "Beach Boys" has survived in some form or fashion for a real long time. Of course, so have Peter, Paul & Mary. 

Gimme a break, Brian's band audience is there to listen to songs written between 45 and 30 years ago. Exactly like M&B's audience. If you like one act better than the other, great, it's totally subjective.

But both (and Al's) are OLDIES / NOSTALGIA gigs. Period.

[Mark H.]

Uhhhh...no.

BWPS is a "new" release and a major artistic statement.  Songs from BW 88, Imagination, and GIOMH were featured heavily in the shows I saw.  The oldies were sort of in a segment by themselves.  You can call it subjective....but that would be wrong.

[the captain]

BWPS may be a new release, but 90% of the material is old and has been known to the fans who go to see Brian Wilson shows for years. Hardly cutting edge in the temporal sense, anyway. And most of Brian's other materials was, or could have been, written in those same years as the Beach Boys material. Let's be realistic, GIOMH (for example) isn't some kind of modern work, regardless of when it was released--it's nostalgic, meant to appeal primarily to Beach Boys fans. The others are the same, albeit with slightly different slants ("modern" synth sounds on 88--which suck by the way--and adult contemporary sh*t on Imagtination).

I've got to say Dancing Bear is correct--they're all pretty much nostalgia shows. And whichever you like best is a matter of subjectivity, so you are wrong there, Mark H. In fact, liking it or not is the definition of subjectivity!

Now, as to using some criteria to say which band is BETTER, that would be a whole different thing, and might be less subjective. I would not hesitate to say Brian's band is the most technically impressive, which you might consider the criteria for best. (I like them the best, but that is again subjective.)

[Mark H.]

I don't think I'm wrong...fact is BW has released new material.  Just because it doesn't sound like indie pop doesn't make it not new.  Are you saying that Brian is, has, been writing oldies?  Not that it matters...butI don't think Brian's show appeals, in general, to the same audience as Mikes.  Of course it has older stuff...the guys been writing hit sings for 45 years.

BWPS was written along time ago...and those boots have been heard buy what, a small small fraction of the listening public...so in that sense is was new.  The guy got a Grammy and it wasn't for the best golden oldie.

[Dancing Bear]

Uhhhh...no.

BWPS is a "new" release

So was "Give My Regards to Broad Street", though no reviewer in 1984 was saying "Look, this is the best McCartney album in years, great new songs like Eleanor Rigby, For No One, The Long and Winding Road"  

and a major artistic statement.

 

1. This is subjective
2. I don't want to start a multipage battle about the merits of BWPS. You like it and I don't.

Songs from BW 88, Imagination, and GIOMH were featured heavily in the shows I saw.

So are Kokomo and Make Love Not War in M&B setlists. And what their audience really wants is to dance to I Get Around. As Brian's audience go to his concerts to listen to Little Girl I Once Knew, not Desert Drive or South American.

The oldies were sort of in a segment by themselves.

Don't you count Smile and Pet Sounds songs as oldies? 'Songs written more than 30 years ago' = oldies

[the captain]

Mark, I didn't say his new releases aren't new (except BWPS, which isn't new), I said they're nostalgic. I said they're in the style of old BBs stuff. That's all.

I also didn't say the audiences for BW and BB are identical. I said they're both primarily people interested in some amount of nostalgia, primarily people interested in hearing 30-to-(almost)50-year-old songs. They are interested in slightly different songs, and different aspects of the songs, but still in old catalogues.

As for the percentage of people who went to Brian's SMiLE shows knowing the material ahead of time? I'd guess pretty significant. Of the general public, not much. But who went to those shows, probably pretty high.

[Jim McShane]

BWPS may be a new release, but 90% of the material is old and has been known to the fans who go to see Brian Wilson shows for years. Hardly cutting edge in the temporal sense, anyway.

I will agree to a point. But look back at some of the posts of that period and there were a lot of people writing and expressing surprise regarding parts of it. It may have been partially known, but it certainly wasn't completely known. Nobody knew the sequence, nobody knew if it would be presented as songs or movements, a number of new lyrics debuted, and so on... And not everyone who went was a hardcore fan anyway. There were a lot of people there who hadn't heard but a few notes of Smile.

I've also heard GIOMH, Your Imagination, South American, Desert Drive, Lay Down Burden, Melt Away, Love & Mercy, City Blues, and other late compositions performed at Brian shows.

I think the public at large (and certainly the music critic community) look at Brian's shows much differently than the M&B shows. And it's not only the newer material (whether its new to you and I is immaterial if it's new to them) - it's the more offbeat obscure older works too. And finally, I believe the incredible quality of the live shows also have a big impact.

[the captain]

it's the more offbeat obscure older works too. And finally, I believe the incredible quality of the live shows also have a big impact.

No question about those two points. I said all along I think people view the bands differently, and go for different reasons, and the first of your two points quoted above is why. As for the second above, I'm 100% behind you on that one.

[Sheriff John Stone]

I've also heard GIOMH, Your Imagination, South American, Desert Drive, Lay Down Burden, Melt Away, Love & Mercy, City Blues, and other late compositions performed at Brian shows.

I think the public at large (and certainly the music critic community) look at Brian's shows much differently than the M&B shows.

While all of the above solo songs you listed were played at one time or another, how many of them were played together at the same concerts? I wouldn't say a great appeal of Brian's shows has been his performance of his solo material. Obscure(er) Beach Boys' songs is even a stretch, but not his solo stuff.

I'm not totally sure the public at large views Brian's shows much differently than Mike and Bruce's - at least musically speaking. I think there a large overlap of fans who go to both, not just to hear the difference in the songs played, but to hear a different voice and see a different face. Yes, there is that small percentage (like us 1%) who are dying to hear SMiLE or even "That's Not Me" performed live, but I believe most people think "hey, let's go out tonight and hear some good old Beach Boys music".

[Mark H.]

Quote
and a major artistic statement.
 

1. This is subjective
2. I don't want to start a multipage battle about the merits of BWPS. You like it and I don't.


Quote

Whether I liked it or whether you did not are not material.  The release of this work via the live shows and recorded cd were viewed by the music community as a whole as important.  Frankly I doubt the Royal Festival Hall was filled with fans hungering for Surfin USA.  I would be hard pressed to call that an oldies/nostalgia show.

The age of when a song was written doesn't really matter, I think it's the intent with which that material is presented and received.  People go to a Brian Wilson show to see the man and hear both old and new music buy a killer band.  You don't see, or I didn't anyway,  the beach balls party atmosphere you see at a typical BB show or I'm assuming a Mike/Bruce show.   The Mike Love show is the beach party nostalgia thing.  People don't go to that show to see Mike Love or Bruce Johnston, they go for the music party atmosphrere.

I see these as two totally different takes on music largely written by Brian Wilson.  He profits by both actually.

[Mark H.]

I wouldn't say a great appeal of Brian's shows has been his performance of his solo material. Obscure(er) Beach Boys' songs is even a stretch, but not his solo stuff.

I'll bet he had about as much newer stuff in his shows as say Bob Dylan does.  With a back catalog as deep as Brian's, he obviously plays stuff from all stages of his career.  Last time I saw him he played about 4 songs off GIOMH, 2 from Imagination, and 1 or 2 from BW 88.  About 30 minutes worth or so.  That doesn't make his shows inherently better or more satisfying...just to note that he is attempting to remain a viable artist with new things to say.  Even if they sound older.

[Dr. Tim]

Having seen both shows, possibly the way to reconcile all this back and forth is to note the differences in approach between Brian on one hand and the Mike & Bruce shows on the other:

The Mike & Bruce shows present the "good old Beach Boys music" (at least the show I saw did), much as other "legacy acts" like Steppenwolf or Blodd Sweat & Tears do.    The people who go obviously like what they hear and that's been a good business model for Mike & Bruce.

Brian's shows present a composer performing his work in repertory.  Including "Smile."   Yes it's a lot of the same "oldies" as Mike & Bruce present but the organizing concept is different.  The idea is to replicate the original sound and arrangements of the records, and achieve what Brian wants the songs to sound like.  Sort of like "original instruments" performances of Mozart symphonies using the tunings, instruments and performance practices of his day.  The parallel with classical music is apt.  After all, a lot of this stuff is getting long in the tooth.  We are seeing more musicians taking this approach as well, such as the Fab Faux replicating the Beatles records onstage, right down to the tape FX.  Another example: Wynton Marsalis presenting new concert versions of Coltrane's "A Love Supreme".

Which approach of these two you prefer is the subjective part.

Though I think it's only a good thing that, thanks to Brian's success, Mike & Bruce now feel more comfortable mining the legacy and doing more LP tracks and material from their early 70s renaissance, as the quoted set list reflects.    And throwing in the odd new song as well! It's their legacy too, they were a part of that history, they should claim it and own it.  Again, the audiences seem to be OK with it, and it's still in keeping with their chosen approach.

How's that?

[Rocker]

I'm not totally sure the public at large views Brian's shows much differently than Mike and Bruce's - at least musically speaking.

I think so. Ever since the late 60s "Brian Wilson" and whoever was "The Beach Boys" at that time, had a different status in the public view.


One random thought that also came up in this thread. This is just my opinion(not totally thought out, probably not perfectly verbalised) and it is not based on any special definition or something:  

"Oldies" are songs that are bound to specific times. So "Pet Sounds" doesn't have anything that bounds it to the "beach party"- or "fast crusin cars"-or "yea,yeah,yeah"- time or even "disco" and therefor is timeless.

[Dancing Bear]

Whether I liked it or whether you did not are not material.  The release of this work via the live shows and recorded cd were viewed by the music community as a whole as important.

Because of 40 years of hype of Smile as the great lost Beach Boys album. The live shows and cd and DVD release got a lot of attention, but the point is, it was a work based on material written 40 years ago. We're talking about how Brian is 'relevant' today.  

Frankly I doubt the Royal Festival Hall was filled with fans hungering for Surfin USA.

It was filled with fans hungering for Cabinessence. Oldies moldies.

I would be hard pressed to call that an oldies/nostalgia show.

Ok, let's stop with those oldies/nostalgia accusations. How about 'Concert which setlist consists of songs written more than three decades ago and performed by an artist way past his prime'? This description fits Brian and Mike.

The age of when a song was written doesn't really matter, I think it's the intent with which that material is presented and received.

Again, going to a show to listen to "Little Girl I once knew" or "Surfin' USA" is the same thing.

People go to a Brian Wilson show to see the man and hear both old and new music buy a killer band.

New music? If all those people wanted to hear Brian's new music, Imagination, GIOMH and WIRWFC would have sold way better.

You don't see, or I didn't anyway,  the beach balls party atmosphere you see at a typical BB show or I'm assuming a Mike/Bruce show.   The Mike Love show is the beach party nostalgia thing.  People don't go to that show to see Mike Love or Bruce Johnston, they go for the music party atmosphrere.

Those bastards.

I see these as two totally different takes on music largely written by Brian Wilson.  He profits by both actually.

Amen.

[Dancing Bear]

I see where this is going. Well, I'm not changing my understanding of what an oldie is or if Brian is a relevant artist today. There was recently a long thread about BWPS / Smile which surprisingly went very smoothly. Let's try to keep this one in the same path. I've said my piece on the subject, now I'm done.

[Mark H.]

Just as a response I'm not being accusatory (is that a word?)....nostalgia/oldies ain't a bad thing.   Actually I agree with just about everything Dr. Tim said.  I got no axe to grind just a 2 bit opinion.

[Jim McShane]

Brian's shows present a composer performing his work in repertory.  Including "Smile."   Yes it's a lot of the same "oldies" as Mike & Bruce present but the organizing concept is different.  The idea is to replicate the original sound and arrangements of the records, and achieve what Brian wants the songs to sound like.  Sort of like "original instruments" performances of Mozart symphonies using the tunings, instruments and performance practices of his day.  The parallel with classical music is apt. 

Looking at the world of classical music is indeed apt. But I would describe the M&B shows as the equivalent of the "Pops" concert - lighter fare, presented more as "entertainment" than a serious performance (not that a shoddy performance is acceptable!). Even the code of audience conduct is loosened a bit in an attempt to make the music more approachable. Sometimes some great music is played at a Pops concert - you might hear Gershwin's Rhapsody In Blue or Concerto In F, for instance.

Brian's shows are serious musical events, they are the equivalent of a subscription concert. They are presented in a way that certainly does not preclude an audience's ability to be entertained. But rather the goal of these concerts is a world class performance of the works being played from the conductor, soloist(s), and the orchestra - presented in a world class environment with an audience solely focused on the music. It's these concerts where you might find a bowl of cough drops at the door - coughing during the performance is a faux pas for sure. Talking during a performance? It'll get you ejected from the hall. Want to hear a great performance of the Rachmaninoff 3rd Piano Concerto? This is where you go.

Brian's shows are much closer to that level of intensity IMHO - the virtuoso musicianship, the deeply held respect for the performers and the pieces of music being performed, the more challenging repertoire, etc.

If you want to go hear some nice music and have a nice night out, you can go to a Pops concert and have a wonderful time. Want to do some serious listening? Then it's a different type of concert.  The M&B show is the equivalent of a Pops concert, whereas I see Brian's shows held in a much more serious vein.

[Cam Mott]

Lately Brian's setlists are pure oldie, almost identical to the BBs'.  Is Brian taking his cues from Mike & Bruce?

There goes the legacy I guess. The Beach.....uh....whos?....oh my gosh, it's already gone.

[Sir Rob]

One...even two swallows - does not a summer make.

[Swamp Pirate]

Lately Brian's setlists are pure oldie, almost identical to the BBs'.  Is Brian taking his cues from Mike & Bruce?

There goes the legacy I guess. The Beach.....uh....whos?....oh my gosh, it's already gone.

Guys, I don't see the value of tearing down Brian to build up Mike Love......and vice-versa.

[Cam Mott]

Lately Brian's setlists are pure oldie, almost identical to the BBs'.  Is Brian taking his cues from Mike & Bruce?

There goes the legacy I guess. The Beach.....uh....whos?....oh my gosh, it's already gone.

Guys, I don't see the value of tearing down Brian to build up Mike Love......and vice-versa.

Swampy, where did I tear down Brian or Mike?

[Sir Rob]

Lately Brian's setlists are pure oldie, almost identical to the BBs'.  Is Brian taking his cues from Mike & Bruce?

There goes the legacy I guess. The Beach.....uh....whos?....oh my gosh, it's already gone.

Guys, I don't see the value of tearing down Brian to build up Mike Love......and vice-versa.

Swampy, where did I tear down Brian or Mike?

You're always tearing down Mike - why don't you give the guy a break?!