gfxgfx
 
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
logo
 
gfx gfx
gfx
624992 Posts in 25120 Topics by 3568 Members - Latest Member: brianwilson69 January 17, 2018, 01:53:47 PM
*
gfx*HomeHelpSearchCalendarLoginRegistergfx
gfxgfx
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.       « previous next »
Pages: [1] Go Down Print
Author Topic: Instrument Challenge  (Read 873 times)
c-man
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 3914


View Profile WWW
« on: January 10, 2018, 08:52:00 PM »

I've always thought that it's a harmonica on "When I Grow Up (To Be A Man)" - but does anyone think it might possibly be an accordion? Just wondering....

Logged
DonnyL
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 1654



View Profile WWW
« Reply #1 on: January 11, 2018, 12:01:30 AM »

Harmonica

Logged

aeijtzsche
Honored Guest
******
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 2361



View Profile
« Reply #2 on: January 11, 2018, 10:59:59 PM »

Harmonica



+1
Logged
NateRuvin
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 582


"I had to prove that I could make it alone"...


View Profile
« Reply #3 on: January 12, 2018, 05:59:34 AM »

Definitely sounds like a harmonica to me
Logged
guitarfool2002
Global Moderator
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 7791


"Barba non facit aliam historici"


View Profile WWW
« Reply #4 on: January 12, 2018, 09:31:27 AM »

Harmonica, specifically an Ab harmonica...breathe in for the Eb chord, breathe out for the Ab chord, anyone could play the part.  Grin  Just an aside...you really don't see too many Ab harps, it's not a common harp key unless you're playing harp with a blues guitarist who tunes down a half-step.

You can hear whoever is playing it blowing both chords on one of the mixes that has the studio chatter just before the count-in, before the take.
Logged

"Every single person who criticized Brian for having She & Him, Kacey Musgraves, Sebu and Nate Ruess guesting on his solo album can now officially go heartily f*** themselves." - Wirestone

"I will never change with what I think happened in here and you will never convince me otherwise." - Dr. Beach Boy.
"There was no up front fees, period. swedishfrog  and I paid for the domain name. As of June 19, 2016 at 4:32pm edt, that is all I was charged for." - Dr. Beach Boy
c-man
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 3914


View Profile WWW
« Reply #5 on: January 12, 2018, 08:04:50 PM »

Double-reed? Or single reed?
Logged
guitarfool2002
Global Moderator
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 7791


"Barba non facit aliam historici"


View Profile WWW
« Reply #6 on: January 13, 2018, 08:51:35 AM »

Double-reed? Or single reed?

Not a clue! I'd lean toward single reed because if you walk into a music store for a harmonica, you'll probably get a Marine Band or something similar, and if you're into folk or blues, you'll want to bend notes more easily which is where you'd get a single reed harp.

But the part is literally draw in for chord 1, draw out for chord 2...they could have had the guy filling the vending machines at the studio play the part. The oddity is that it was an Ab harp, I'm guessing they just bought one at Wallichs' to do that track or something.

Logged

"Every single person who criticized Brian for having She & Him, Kacey Musgraves, Sebu and Nate Ruess guesting on his solo album can now officially go heartily f*** themselves." - Wirestone

"I will never change with what I think happened in here and you will never convince me otherwise." - Dr. Beach Boy.
"There was no up front fees, period. swedishfrog  and I paid for the domain name. As of June 19, 2016 at 4:32pm edt, that is all I was charged for." - Dr. Beach Boy
Mitchell
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 707



View Profile
« Reply #7 on: January 13, 2018, 09:36:29 PM »

My understanding is that it is a chromatic harmonica, though I don't know what further evidence exists.

Frankly, the revelation that the harpsichord may have been electronic was surprising enough!
Logged

Watch out for snakes!
c-man
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 3914


View Profile WWW
« Reply #8 on: January 13, 2018, 10:41:12 PM »

My understanding is that it is a chromatic harmonica, though I don't know what further evidence exists.

Frankly, the revelation that the harpsichord may have been electronic was surprising enough!

Yeah, well - I don't think the harpsichord was electronic, after all. I originally did, but now I don't. Smiley
Logged
DonnyL
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 1654



View Profile WWW
« Reply #9 on: January 14, 2018, 11:24:24 AM »

Def an acoustic harpsichord to my ears. Not sure the Baldwin electric existed l, and the RMI Rocksichord was a couple years away.
Logged

guitarfool2002
Global Moderator
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 7791


"Barba non facit aliam historici"


View Profile WWW
« Reply #10 on: January 14, 2018, 01:23:01 PM »

I highly doubt that's a chromatic harp, those are more for melody in styles like jazz and even classical (yes, classical) and if you want examples of chromatic harp playing in the mainstream, listen to Stevie Wonder or the late Toots Theilemans, who were melodic players. Not many rock or blues players (or folk, or country) used or use a full chromatic harp.

I'll say again, anyone on this forum who has never played harmonica could learn that part in a minute or two. Get an Ab harp, find the right position on the harp, draw in for the Eb chord, and blow out for the Ab chord. Buy any single reed harp in Ab for 30 bucks or far less, and that's the part heard on the record waiting to be played by simply breathing in and out on the thing.

Or spend 200 bucks on a chromatic harp for no reason, and start woodshedding Stevie's solo on "For Once In My Life" or anything jazzy by Toots.  Grin
Logged

"Every single person who criticized Brian for having She & Him, Kacey Musgraves, Sebu and Nate Ruess guesting on his solo album can now officially go heartily f*** themselves." - Wirestone

"I will never change with what I think happened in here and you will never convince me otherwise." - Dr. Beach Boy.
"There was no up front fees, period. swedishfrog  and I paid for the domain name. As of June 19, 2016 at 4:32pm edt, that is all I was charged for." - Dr. Beach Boy
JK
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 4198


Perhaps I put too much faith in atmosphere


View Profile
« Reply #11 on: January 14, 2018, 02:18:57 PM »

I highly doubt that's a chromatic harp, those are more for melody in styles like jazz and even classical (yes, classical) and if you want examples of chromatic harp playing in the mainstream, listen to Stevie Wonder or the late Toots Theilemans, who were melodic players. Not many rock or blues players (or folk, or country) used or use a full chromatic harp.

I'll say again, anyone on this forum who has never played harmonica could learn that part in a minute or two. Get an Ab harp, find the right position on the harp, draw in for the Eb chord, and blow out for the Ab chord. Buy any single reed harp in Ab for 30 bucks or far less, and that's the part heard on the record waiting to be played by simply breathing in and out on the thing.

Or spend 200 bucks on a chromatic harp for no reason, and start woodshedding Stevie's solo on "For Once In My Life" or anything jazzy by Toots.  Grin

Yes indeed. Toots was a master of his instrument. This is from the soundtrack of Turkish Delight (1973):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVZB3Dinp2M
Logged

"I don't want to go out. I want to stay in. Get things done." (David Bowie)
Mitchell
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 707



View Profile
« Reply #12 on: Yesterday at 02:02:45 PM »

One more thing, I assume it's the same harmonica as the one used on Help Me, Ronda...
Logged

Watch out for snakes!
c-man
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 3914


View Profile WWW
« Reply #13 on: Yesterday at 06:17:17 PM »

One more thing, I assume it's the same harmonica as the one used on Help Me, Ronda...

Was that an Ab harmonica, too?
Logged
guitarfool2002
Global Moderator
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 7791


"Barba non facit aliam historici"


View Profile WWW
« Reply #14 on: Yesterday at 07:33:01 PM »

One more thing, I assume it's the same harmonica as the one used on Help Me, Ronda...

Was that an Ab harmonica, too?

"Ronda" is in C#, or Db to line up with the key of Ab being discussed. This has actually become something of an obsession for me. But I did road test this on my own Hohner Golden Melody, closest key I had was "A". The When I Grow Up part is possible to draw in and out, simple as that...two breaths.

In order to play the Ronda riffs, you need a different harp which would have a key that would also produce a different range than those around A or Ab to play those licks. They're not complex, but the range is different from harps in the A range.

My question is was there a session musician logged for the Ronda session playing harmonica? If so, they'd have dozens of harmonicas at their disposal, as Brian described Tommy Morgan did when he pulled out the giant bass harmonica akin to the old Harmonicats records and Brian said "use it!" on Pet Sounds. So the possibilities grow substantially if that was a session player blowing harp on that track.

If not...my guess is they got a C#/Db harp off the shelf. But it sounds more professional on Ronda than When I Grow Up.

But I look forward to hearing more on this. The funny thing with harmonicas is there are range differences that change the sound drastically in different yet related keys. If I get near a C# harmonica, I'll try it out with the Ronda licks. But I doubt that will happen soon.  Smiley
Logged

"Every single person who criticized Brian for having She & Him, Kacey Musgraves, Sebu and Nate Ruess guesting on his solo album can now officially go heartily f*** themselves." - Wirestone

"I will never change with what I think happened in here and you will never convince me otherwise." - Dr. Beach Boy.
"There was no up front fees, period. swedishfrog  and I paid for the domain name. As of June 19, 2016 at 4:32pm edt, that is all I was charged for." - Dr. Beach Boy
guitarfool2002
Global Moderator
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 7791


"Barba non facit aliam historici"


View Profile WWW
« Reply #15 on: Yesterday at 08:00:47 PM »

For anyone interested, this is The Harmonicats in a more modern incarnation, but playing the same style harps as heard on their original smash hit Peg O My Heart. The guy on the right is playing bass harp (as used by Tommy on Pet Sounds), the guy in the middle is Jerry Murad and he's playing the melody on a chromatic harp, which is what chromatic harps usually do.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sF0f1TFx-0Q

And tying it into the Beach Boys...the original record of Peg O My Heart by the Harmonicats, released in 1947, was the first hit recording to use artificial reverb...engineered and cooked up by Bill Putnam, owner/founder of Western studios who put a mic in a bathroom and ran the feed from that returned back into the board...creating the same electronic reverb Brian used on almost every BB's session at Western or anywhere else he recorded at in the 60's with the Beach Boys.

The original from 1947 with Putnam's artificial reverb that was a #1 record: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SquuMPQMHtk

So a bit of history there, lol.
Logged

"Every single person who criticized Brian for having She & Him, Kacey Musgraves, Sebu and Nate Ruess guesting on his solo album can now officially go heartily f*** themselves." - Wirestone

"I will never change with what I think happened in here and you will never convince me otherwise." - Dr. Beach Boy.
"There was no up front fees, period. swedishfrog  and I paid for the domain name. As of June 19, 2016 at 4:32pm edt, that is all I was charged for." - Dr. Beach Boy
c-man
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 3914


View Profile WWW
« Reply #16 on: Yesterday at 08:31:03 PM »


My question is was there a session musician logged for the Ronda session playing harmonica?

Yes - Billy Riley, the rockabilly great who passed away awhile back. For the "When I Grow Up" session, Carroll "Cappy" Lewis (a trumpet player) is listed on the AFM sheet, but there's some question as to whether he actually played this date, or was merely being compensated for being left off the contract for a Christmas album session...I suppose it's possible Brian may have initially hired him to play trumpet on "When I Grow Up", and at the last minute changed the part to the harmonica...this would explain why Lewis was paid both $61 (the same as Dennis, Carl, and Al were for the "When I Grow Up" session) AS WELL AS $101 (the same rate most musicians were paid for the earlier Christmas Album session), and why the latter fee was added to the contract at a later date. I agree that the harmonica part in question is extremely simple, and could have been played by most anyone (but not Brian, Carl, Dennis, or Al, as they were all seemingly occupied playing parts on harpsichord, guitar, hi-hat, and bass - respectively - on the very same overdub as the harmonica)...I've wondered if maybe the harmonica was played by Mike (not likely, though, as his name does not appear on the AFM contract), or maybe roadie (and non-union member) Ron Swallow (he was definitely present at the session). But none of this satisfactorily explains why "Cappy" Lewis was paid BOTH $61 AND $101 for this session...
Logged
guitarfool2002
Global Moderator
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 7791


"Barba non facit aliam historici"


View Profile WWW
« Reply #17 on: Yesterday at 08:56:58 PM »


My question is was there a session musician logged for the Ronda session playing harmonica?

Yes - Billy Riley, the rockabilly great who passed away awhile back. For the "When I Grow Up" session, Carroll "Cappy" Lewis (a trumpet player) is listed on the AFM sheet, but there's some question as to whether he actually played this date, or was merely being compensated for being left off the contract for a Christmas album session...I suppose it's possible Brian may have initially hired him to play trumpet on "When I Grow Up", and at the last minute changed the part to the harmonica...this would explain why Lewis was paid both $61 (the same as Dennis, Carl, and Al were for the "When I Grow Up" session) AS WELL AS $101 (the same rate most musicians were paid for the earlier Christmas Album session), and why the latter fee was added to the contract at a later date. I agree that the harmonica part in question is extremely simple, and could have been played by most anyone (but not Brian, Carl, Dennis, or Al, as they were all seemingly occupied playing parts on harpsichord, guitar, hi-hat, and bass - respectively - on the very same overdub as the harmonica)...I've wondered if maybe the harmonica was played by Mike (not likely, though, as his name does not appear on the AFM contract), or maybe roadie (and non-union member) Ron Swallow (he was definitely present at the session). But none of this satisfactorily explains why "Cappy" Lewis was paid BOTH $61 AND $101 for this session...

This is me:


That's fascinating, I had no idea. So it's the same Billy Lee Riley who cut those manic records on Sun in the 50's, blowing harp on "Ronda"? Hot damn!

Just an aside, my dad had a copy of Billy's "Red Hot" on Sun, and when I was a little kid I would play the heck out of that record on the old hi-fi console...good memories! I loved his voice on that record, before I knew anything other than what I liked to hear. That's crazy rockabilly. Later when I got into it even more, the song "Flying Saucers Rock And Roll" killed me with that great guitar solo from Roland Janes.

I mean, I'm shocked to hear that it's the same guy! Billy Lee Riley even by rockabilly's standards was manic, just crazy on his vocals, as wild as rockabilly was and even a notch above Jerry Lee Lewis on some of those records Riley cut at Sun. And the same guy played on "Ronda"!

Any idea how he came to be playing harp on sessions in LA by 1964/65? Was that his main instrument in the union phone directory, or was he just a fluke of a hire on a Ronda session in this case?

I'm thinking the Cappy Lewis payment may have been a back payment with interest/apology if he didn't get paid for the actual earlier session he worked. It wouldn't be uncommon for musicians to get a "Bonus" like this, for doing no-show work or as gratitude for something else, and it would be as easy as calling a guy like Cappy to the session, logging him in and paying him, but not having him blow more than a single note on a rehearsal take and he'd be paid the same scale.

Brian was known for taking care of the musicians who worked his sessions, as has been documented quite a few times. Hal said Brian would deliberately run the clock a minute past the end time so the musicians would get overtime for the next hour as a thank you gesture. That's one reason why they loved working for him...according to several who did.

But this harmonica thing, wow it just keeps getting more interesting! Billy Lee Riley, wow.
Logged

"Every single person who criticized Brian for having She & Him, Kacey Musgraves, Sebu and Nate Ruess guesting on his solo album can now officially go heartily f*** themselves." - Wirestone

"I will never change with what I think happened in here and you will never convince me otherwise." - Dr. Beach Boy.
"There was no up front fees, period. swedishfrog  and I paid for the domain name. As of June 19, 2016 at 4:32pm edt, that is all I was charged for." - Dr. Beach Boy
JK
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 4198


Perhaps I put too much faith in atmosphere


View Profile
« Reply #18 on: Today at 03:23:18 AM »

My question is was there a session musician logged for the Ronda session playing harmonica?

Yes - Billy Riley, the rockabilly great who passed away awhile back.

That's fascinating, I had no idea. So it's the same Billy Lee Riley who cut those manic records on Sun in the 50's, blowing harp on "Ronda"? Hot damn!

I mean, I'm shocked to hear that it's the same guy! Billy Lee Riley even by rockabilly's standards was manic, just crazy on his vocals, as wild as rockabilly was and even a notch above Jerry Lee Lewis on some of those records Riley cut at Sun. And the same guy played on "Ronda"!

It borders on the surreal! Lot of folks gonna hear "Ronda" differently in future----and maybe even appreciate it more. Thanks, c-man.
Logged

"I don't want to go out. I want to stay in. Get things done." (David Bowie)
c-man
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 3914


View Profile WWW
« Reply #19 on: Today at 03:33:37 AM »

My question is was there a session musician logged for the Ronda session playing harmonica?

Yes - Billy Riley, the rockabilly great who passed away awhile back.

That's fascinating, I had no idea. So it's the same Billy Lee Riley who cut those manic records on Sun in the 50's, blowing harp on "Ronda"? Hot damn!

I mean, I'm shocked to hear that it's the same guy! Billy Lee Riley even by rockabilly's standards was manic, just crazy on his vocals, as wild as rockabilly was and even a notch above Jerry Lee Lewis on some of those records Riley cut at Sun. And the same guy played on "Ronda"!

It borders on the surreal! Lot of folks gonna hear "Ronda" differently in future----and maybe even appreciate it more. Thanks, c-man.

According to his Wikipedia page, "In 1962, he moved to Los Angeles and worked as a session musician with Dean Martin, the Beach Boys, Herb Alpert, and Sammy Davis Jr., among others, and also recorded under various aliases." The source cited is: Wilkerson, Tony (2002). "Rockabilly Hall of Fame Biography". Retrieved June 26, 2017. The page lists several harmonica albums he cut, including Harmonica Beatlemania on Mercury in '65.

He eventually moved back to Arkansas and went into the construction business, but ultimately returned to music. And - speaking of "Hot damn!" - you may or may not know that was the title of his 1997 Grammy-nominated album!

Lastly - Billy L. Riley is also listed as playing harmonica on the session sheet for the BBs' "Don't Let Me Wonder" (aka "Please Let Me Wonder"), although I can't really hear it - if he's there, I'm assuming he blends in with the horns...
« Last Edit: Today at 03:51:48 AM by c-man » Logged
gfx
Pages: [1] Go Up Print 
gfx
Jump to:  
gfx
Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines Page created in 0.188 seconds with 22 queries.
Helios Multi design by Bloc
gfx
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!