gfxgfx
 
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
logo
 
gfx gfx
gfx
680598 Posts in 27600 Topics by 4068 Members - Latest Member: Dae Lims March 28, 2024, 05:26:22 PM
*
gfx*HomeHelpSearchCalendarLoginRegistergfx
gfxgfx
0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.       « previous next »
Pages: 1 2 [3] Go Down Print
Author Topic: What if Brian never met Van Dyke Parks?  (Read 10122 times)
rab2591
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 5865


"My God. It's full of stars."


View Profile
« Reply #50 on: November 22, 2017, 12:55:31 PM »

Two more points about whether or not Brian met Van Dyke

1.  Granted who knows how The Beach Boys history would've shaped up.   There's a chance that Landy doesn't get involved, and there's no split in the late 80s from Brian and the band.  If that's the case, does Brian become the prolific solo artist he's become?  It really seemed like putting out Smile, and getting that monkey off his back recharged his batteries.  Although, without Smile, that monkey may not have been there in the first place.

2.  If a history without VDP means that no incarnation of Vegetables appears anywhere in the BB canon, sign me up.   LOL

Ahh man. That final harmony in Vegetables (under the “I know that you’ll feel better” line) is one of their most beautiful moments, imo. And the version on TSS soars miles above even Brian’s BWPS version. Idk, just my personal preference, but that song is one of their coolest from that era.

And thanks, SB, glad at least one person liked it!
Logged

Bill Tobelman's SMiLE site

God must’ve smiled the day Brian Wilson was born!

"ragegasm" - /rāj • ga-zəm/ : a logical mental response produced when your favorite band becomes remotely associated with the bro-country genre.

Ever want to hear some Beach Boys songs mashed up together like The Beatles' 'LOVE' album? Check out my mix!
CenturyDeprived
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 5749



View Profile
« Reply #51 on: November 22, 2017, 12:56:31 PM »

Quote
If anything, that exception he makes to Christian's lyrics implies to me that Mike felt other songwriting partners weren't adding anything that he (Mike) couldn't do. And Mike may not have been 100% wrong in that assertion. Not that he would have produced the same lyrics as others like Usher and Asher did, but he probably could have done lyrics on those songs too. 

Please Let Me Wonder and She Knows Me Too Well bears that out, IMHO

And California Girls.   And, after Pet Sounds, Good Vibrations.  Those are two iconic sounds.  That's why I think maybe with VDP in the picture, Brian might be willing to let try try his hand at some lyrics for other musical ideas that wound up on Smile.  

 I completely agree that Mike could show some legit songwriting chops when he wanted to. The problem is, his pushy behavior was always going to be a thorn in Brian side. Brian should’ve been able to go to Mike when he wanted to go to Mike, not when Mike tried to guilt him into making sure he was the collaborator on the next project. That’s textbook toxic guilt trip nonsense 101.

Without the non release of Smile, you might have a more confident Brian Wilson who pushes back if Mike gets pushy.  


Possibly. However, a continually pushy bandmate is not something that Brian of all people should have had to deal with in his life.

Sometimes, I get the feeling you don't like Mike Love very much.

 Grin

I guess I just have a problem with family members guilt-tripping others, and I don't like bullying behavior, is all.
Logged
KDS
Guest
« Reply #52 on: November 22, 2017, 12:56:37 PM »

"Vegetables" is an important part of the whole "Smile" saga. It's, in my opinion, a bit too facile to just take the goofy nature of the song at face value and compare it to other out-and-out inane stuff in the BB catalog.

But beyond that, I'd take ten "Vegetables" and ten more "Unleash the Love" albums to make sure that "Surf's Up" happened, and happened *just the way* it happened. Every part of it. VDP writing the lyrics. The BBs finishing it in 1971. Perfection. It all may have been the cause or symptoms of any number of positives or ills that befell the band, but as a piece in and of itself, perfection. One of the few moments in my life where I've, even if only for a brief moment, thought about whether for like five seconds there Brian really *did* surpass the Beatles.

I'll keep Vegetables if I get to keep Surf's Up.   That much is true.  

But, I think it's still an awful song.  
Logged
KDS
Guest
« Reply #53 on: November 22, 2017, 12:58:00 PM »

Two more points about whether or not Brian met Van Dyke

1.  Granted who knows how The Beach Boys history would've shaped up.   There's a chance that Landy doesn't get involved, and there's no split in the late 80s from Brian and the band.  If that's the case, does Brian become the prolific solo artist he's become?  It really seemed like putting out Smile, and getting that monkey off his back recharged his batteries.  Although, without Smile, that monkey may not have been there in the first place.

2.  If a history without VDP means that no incarnation of Vegetables appears anywhere in the BB canon, sign me up.   LOL

Ahh man. That final harmony in Vegetables (under the “I know that you’ll feel better” line) is one of their most beautiful moments, imo. And the version on TSS soars miles above even Brian’s BWPS version. Idk, just my personal preference, but that song is one of their coolest from that era.


I'm sorry, but I'll never understand the attraction for that song.  I know it's a fan favorite, but..............
Logged
SMiLE Brian
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 8432



View Profile
« Reply #54 on: November 22, 2017, 12:59:09 PM »

I’m gonna need some Vega-tables after tomorrow....
Logged

And production aside, I’d so much rather hear a 14 year old David Marks shred some guitar on Chug-a-lug than hear a 51 year old Mike Love sing about bangin some chick in a swimming pool.-rab2591
rab2591
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 5865


"My God. It's full of stars."


View Profile
« Reply #55 on: November 22, 2017, 01:03:07 PM »

Two more points about whether or not Brian met Van Dyke

1.  Granted who knows how The Beach Boys history would've shaped up.   There's a chance that Landy doesn't get involved, and there's no split in the late 80s from Brian and the band.  If that's the case, does Brian become the prolific solo artist he's become?  It really seemed like putting out Smile, and getting that monkey off his back recharged his batteries.  Although, without Smile, that monkey may not have been there in the first place.

2.  If a history without VDP means that no incarnation of Vegetables appears anywhere in the BB canon, sign me up.   LOL

Ahh man. That final harmony in Vegetables (under the “I know that you’ll feel better” line) is one of their most beautiful moments, imo. And the version on TSS soars miles above even Brian’s BWPS version. Idk, just my personal preference, but that song is one of their coolest from that era.


I'm sorry, but I'll never understand the attraction for that song.  I know it's a fan favorite, but..............

I guess it’s because I’m not really a lyrics person. Those lyrics are completely ridiculous but beyond that there is so much going on creatively it’s unbelievable...chomping on vegetables for rhythm, deep deep chanting, the sound of a far off drum keeping the beat. Then that harmonious ending.

Granted, you’ve obviously heard all this and still dislike it haha, and I understand. Just sharing why I like it.
Logged

Bill Tobelman's SMiLE site

God must’ve smiled the day Brian Wilson was born!

"ragegasm" - /rāj • ga-zəm/ : a logical mental response produced when your favorite band becomes remotely associated with the bro-country genre.

Ever want to hear some Beach Boys songs mashed up together like The Beatles' 'LOVE' album? Check out my mix!
KDS
Guest
« Reply #56 on: November 22, 2017, 01:06:25 PM »

Two more points about whether or not Brian met Van Dyke

1.  Granted who knows how The Beach Boys history would've shaped up.   There's a chance that Landy doesn't get involved, and there's no split in the late 80s from Brian and the band.  If that's the case, does Brian become the prolific solo artist he's become?  It really seemed like putting out Smile, and getting that monkey off his back recharged his batteries.  Although, without Smile, that monkey may not have been there in the first place.

2.  If a history without VDP means that no incarnation of Vegetables appears anywhere in the BB canon, sign me up.   LOL

Ahh man. That final harmony in Vegetables (under the “I know that you’ll feel better” line) is one of their most beautiful moments, imo. And the version on TSS soars miles above even Brian’s BWPS version. Idk, just my personal preference, but that song is one of their coolest from that era.


I'm sorry, but I'll never understand the attraction for that song.  I know it's a fan favorite, but..............

I guess it’s because I’m not really a lyrics person. Those lyrics are completely ridiculous but beyond that there is so much going on creatively it’s unbelievable...chomping on vegetables for rhythm, deep deep chanting, the sound of a far off drum keeping the beat. Then that harmonious ending.

Granted, you’ve obviously heard all this and still dislike it haha, and I understand. Just sharing why I like it.

Fair enough. 

I'm not much into lyrics either to be honest.  I mean, I'm a huge fan of Motley Crue and Poison, as well as The Beach Boys.   
Logged
rab2591
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 5865


"My God. It's full of stars."


View Profile
« Reply #57 on: November 22, 2017, 01:08:54 PM »

Haha I hear ya. I love the band ABBA for their sound but ugh their lyrics are completely asinine.
Logged

Bill Tobelman's SMiLE site

God must’ve smiled the day Brian Wilson was born!

"ragegasm" - /rāj • ga-zəm/ : a logical mental response produced when your favorite band becomes remotely associated with the bro-country genre.

Ever want to hear some Beach Boys songs mashed up together like The Beatles' 'LOVE' album? Check out my mix!
♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇
Pissing off drunks since 1978
Global Moderator
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 11844


🍦🍦 Pet Demon for Sale - $5 or best offer ☮☮


View Profile WWW
« Reply #58 on: November 22, 2017, 01:24:39 PM »

I wrote a quick alternate history if anyone is interested in reading it.

Brian keeps experiementing with LSD. After Pet Sounds, Brian reaches out to good friend Terry Melcher about finding an intellectual collaborator to help push The Beach Boys into a more hip circle of listeners.

In this timeline Van Dyke Parks either doesn’t exist or went on to pursue acting full time.

Thinking out loud, Terry Melcher suggests that Brian go to a Doors show at the Whiskey. Brian takes some acid and heads to the show. He is entranced by what he sees. He’s not impressed by the vocals but the lyrics are about crystal ships and how the West is the best. Post-show Brian is introduced to Jim backstage, he’s told that Jim is the mastermind behind the lyrics. Jim is bombed out of his tree on alcohol but he knows of Brian and digs his music. The two, though weird as hell, kinda hit it off.

“If you ever want to stop by and work on some music, here’s my number.” Brian tells Jim and hands Jim his business card. Keep in mind this is before The Doors are even signed. They know that they are a hit but Jim is frustrated that they have played the Whisky and other hip venues for months without much luck regarding a recording contract. So here comes Brian, rumors of The Beach Boys starting their own label are floating around Hollywood....”I’d be a fool not to go talk to the leader of one of the greatest bands on the planet.” Jim thinks. Also keep in mind that Jim was a fan of The Beach Boys.

A couple days later Jim shows up at Brian’s door. He’s greeted with the smell of fresh broiled steak dueling with the pot smoke wafting from the living room. Brian lights up upon seeing the scruffy but masculine looking Morrison, and they head to a couch where Brian offers Jim a joint. They talk about the music business and their own musical ideas.

Brian is blown away by how intellectual Morrison is. He is talking about Roman gods, Nietzsche, ancient philosophy. Brian suggests they both take some acid and then head to the piano. Though Jim is a man full of confidence he is also not sure what to think of Brian, he is intimidated by the fame of The Beach Boys, but Brian seems so full of childlike love of life. He can’t say no to writing a song on acid that won’t be remembered. They take the acid and both keep talking about life.

This is how Brian works. He did it with Asher with major success...sit on the couch, get high, and talk about what’s on your mind. It’s like stream of conscious thinking out loud. And with Jim Morrison it opened up an entire world of possibilities.

They head to the piano and both are high as kites yet Brian writes the music away on sheet music above the piano. They laugh and write into the evening. Nothing is said about an official collaboration, but they both know they’re onto something.

Although it has been on Brian’s mind, he doesn’t tell Jim of the wonderment he has with a cowboy and Indian song. He instead suggest they write a song about the rise of love in the West, the fall of Rome, and perhaps a song about a mystical girl and boy who innocently and wonderfully fall in love. Brian also tells Jim he wants to name his next album ‘Dumb Angel’. Jim is shocked that the leader of wholesome sounding Beach Boys wants to go off in such a direction. But it intrigues him even more.

Weeks go by. Jim plays for the Doors by night, and works with Brian by day. They create an entire album, a pop symphony created in the minds of two of the most mystifying musical geniuses of 1966. During this time Brian also records The Doors as a side project (Brian’s only suggestion that they “add more harmonies”). It’s a symbiotic relationship that serves both bands perfectly. The Doors now have a demo tape that sounds like a hit album, they will soon sign with Capitol thanks to Brian putting in a good word.

The Beach Boys get back from a tour and Brian excitedly shows them the new material. It’s weird, no doubt, but Jim and Brian are so confident about it that they see potential in it. At a vocal recording session of ‘CaliEssence’, Mike Love asks Jim Morrison pointedly “What do these lyrics mean?” to which Jim just laughs at Mike. Nothing further is said and The Beach Boys go on recording the songs.

On January 1, 1967 The Beach Boys release ‘Dumb Angel’ to critical acclaim...12 songs of intellectual pop genius. The Doors, on their own merits, skyrocket to the top of the charts with the release of their first album. Brian still takes a break from big productions after ‘Dumb Angel’ and follows the Doors style with a grungy soulful album of their own called ‘Wild Honey’...listen to the organ in the middle eight, perfectly captures that Doors sound. The Beach Boys followup to ‘Dumb Angel’, without the lyrical aid of Jim Morrison, does well on the charts.

They continue to impress listeners and critics for the next decade. Their final album as a group, The Beach Boys Love You becomes the pinnacle of 70s rock...it’s a perfect sendoff for a band that would never tour again until 2012 for a 50th anniversary tour.

The album ‘Dumb Angel’ makes the Rolling Stone top 100 albums ever made list, coming it at number 2 behind Pet Sounds. It is revered as one of the weirdest and incredible collaborations of rock history.

Love it..And yeah, great call on the organ sound of WH...it's one of the reasons why it's my daughter's favorite BB album
Logged

Need your song mixed/mastered? Contact me at fear2stop@yahoo.com. Serious inquiries only, please!
clack
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 537


View Profile
« Reply #59 on: November 22, 2017, 04:37:10 PM »

Rather than Brian and VDP never meeting, what alternative history might have ensued had Parks formed a permanent songwriting partnership with Brian? And not only with Brian -- Carl and Dennis also used lyric writers from outside the band.

How would the history of the group been different with Carl and Dennis co-writing with Parks in the Sunflower thru Holland period? Parks of course was not just a lyric writer, he also might have contributed to the music and the arrangements. Carl, for one, might have become a more prolific writer with a partner contributing musical ideas.

In this alternate history, Parks might have become The Beach Boys equivalent to the Grateful Dead's Robert Hunter.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2017, 04:38:00 PM by clack » Logged
♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇
Pissing off drunks since 1978
Global Moderator
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 11844


🍦🍦 Pet Demon for Sale - $5 or best offer ☮☮


View Profile WWW
« Reply #60 on: November 22, 2017, 04:57:06 PM »

I was about to say that I wouldn't have liked the BB nearly as much, until I thought of the fact that Parks's  writing may have turned out different and less esoteric.
Logged

Need your song mixed/mastered? Contact me at fear2stop@yahoo.com. Serious inquiries only, please!
SMiLE Brian
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 8432



View Profile
« Reply #61 on: November 22, 2017, 05:02:05 PM »

Billy needs to repackage himself as a hipster....  Roll Eyes
Logged

And production aside, I’d so much rather hear a 14 year old David Marks shred some guitar on Chug-a-lug than hear a 51 year old Mike Love sing about bangin some chick in a swimming pool.-rab2591
♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇
Pissing off drunks since 1978
Global Moderator
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 11844


🍦🍦 Pet Demon for Sale - $5 or best offer ☮☮


View Profile WWW
« Reply #62 on: November 22, 2017, 05:07:04 PM »

Billy needs to repackage himself as a hipster....  Roll Eyes

Hey man, I was a hipster before it was cool!






(hey, that was kind of clever)
Logged

Need your song mixed/mastered? Contact me at fear2stop@yahoo.com. Serious inquiries only, please!
SMiLE Brian
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 8432



View Profile
« Reply #63 on: November 22, 2017, 05:08:10 PM »

Hey i’m not one either! LOL
Logged

And production aside, I’d so much rather hear a 14 year old David Marks shred some guitar on Chug-a-lug than hear a 51 year old Mike Love sing about bangin some chick in a swimming pool.-rab2591
gfx
Pages: 1 2 [3] Go Up Print 
gfx
Jump to:  
gfx
Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines Page created in 0.175 seconds with 22 queries.
Helios Multi design by Bloc
gfx
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!