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Author Topic: What if Brian never met Van Dyke Parks?  (Read 10118 times)
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« on: November 22, 2017, 11:04:28 AM »

"What if SMiLE had never been released" is one of the most famous BB-related memes, if not *the* most famous. Well, let's go one better. What if he had never met VDP at all? How different would his career have been?

Thoughts?
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« Reply #1 on: November 22, 2017, 11:21:26 AM »

I'd like to hope that had Brian and VDP never met, we'd have still gotten some incarnation of Surf's Up, Heroes and Villains, Wonderful, Our Prayer, and Cabinessence.  The lyrics would obviously be different, maybe supplied by Tony Asher, Mike Love, or another different outside writer.  

Without a non released Smile album, the followup to Pet Sounds, I think, would've been completely different.  I doubt Smiley Smile would exist.  Instead, maybe we'd have gotten a more fitting (IMO) follow up to Pet Sounds.  Without a Smile concept to try to make the songs fit into, Brian may have been able to put an album together in 1967 that takes the best musical parts of Smile with different lyrics that might not necessarily be a full piece of work.  Maybe you'd get the songs I mentioned before plus Good Vibrations.  

Without the concept hanging over Brian's head, if he were to get the best musical parts of GV, H&V, Cabinessence, Surf's Up, Wonderful, and Our Prayer onto a 1967 album to follow up Pet Sounds, the Beach Boys career might not have been quite as derailed as it was with the non release of the anticipated Smile.  Maybe said album sells better than Smiley Smile did, and the US record buying public doesn't turn their back on the band, and is a little more accepting of The Beach Boys evolving sound.  

There's a possibility here that Wild Honey and Friends are still released in their mostly existing forms, but if there's a more successful followup to Pet Sounds, they sell more.  Maybe Capitol doesn't cut ties with the band at the end of the decade, the Boys make a more accepted transition to being an album band in the late 60s, into the 70s.  

And without the "Smile" songs making it onto 20/20 and Surf's Up, that might've opened up some room for the some of the great songs that got left off albums at the time.  

Also, if Capitol is getting good selling current BB albums, maybe they don't put together Endless Summer in 1974, and The Beach Boys never get transformed into a touring juke box, and don't try to copy themselves so much.    
« Last Edit: November 22, 2017, 11:37:24 AM by KDS » Logged
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« Reply #2 on: November 22, 2017, 11:25:17 AM »

Sorry, double post
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« Reply #3 on: November 22, 2017, 11:35:51 AM »

Unthinkable.  If they'd never met, Smile would never have happened. Musical history would have been changed. Just think, Sgt Pepper would have been considered the defining album of all time. Inconceivable.
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« Reply #4 on: November 22, 2017, 11:38:00 AM »

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Also, if Capitol is getting good selling current BB albums, maybe they don't put together Endless Summer in 1974, and The Beach Boys never get transformed into a touring juke box, and don't try to copy themselves so much.    
 
You're kind of thinking along the same lines as I was.  Of course, we can't possibly know, but  amazing how one chance encounter  can alter the course of history.

I think the followup to Pet Sounds might have been similar to Wild Honey, personally. I definitely think it would have been a case where they did move on from the pre-Pet Sounds sounds. One thing, though..without that massive hype that SMiLE had, would they have faded out sooner than they did? GV would've bought them some time, but Brian was writing in snippets at that point either way. So, would we have gotten something SMiLE-ish but with different lyrics/concept?
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« Reply #5 on: November 22, 2017, 11:40:48 AM »

"What if SMiLE had never been released" is one of the most famous BB-related memes, if not *the* most famous. Well, let's go one better. What if he had never met VDP at all? How different would his career have been?

Thoughts?

Brian had still outgrown Mike as a collaborator.  In place of Van, I believe that whoever the collaborator was, Mike would’ve found a way to have problems with it, out of fear of being replaced.   He would have dragged his feet, and exhibited all sorts of passive aggressive behavior. I have no doubt.

Brian wanted some sort of departure from the norm, and Mike would not have it. Especially if it meant the idea of Brian working with somebody else was possibly going to receive more critical adulation then the work Mike had done with Brian. EGO.

The question then becomes, would a different collaborator have stood up to Mike more than Van did?
« Last Edit: November 22, 2017, 11:41:48 AM by CenturyDeprived » Logged
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« Reply #6 on: November 22, 2017, 11:41:51 AM »

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The question then becomes, would a different collaborator have stood up to Mike more than Van did?

And if he did, how would Mike have reacted? Would the band have split then, or fired Mike?
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« Reply #7 on: November 22, 2017, 11:44:18 AM »

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The question then becomes, would a different collaborator have stood up to Mike more than Van did?

And if he did, how would Mike have reacted? Would the band have split then, or fired Mike?

Under no circumstances with the band ever, ever have fired Mike. The family ties were too entrenched. The guilt trips were too perfectly executed.  This is evident because even when witnessing the tragic trajectory of the Wilson brothers, neither of them were ever actually permanently fired from the band. Not essentially until late 2012, at least.

I’d like to think, however, that if Mike acted badly enough, that he could’ve gotten a suspension, the way that Dennis and Brian both did at various times in later years. Maybe six months being barred from the band would have helped Mike’s behavior shape up, even if only for reasons of being afraid of permanently losing his place in the band. Fat chance, but would’ve been nice.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2017, 11:49:23 AM by CenturyDeprived » Logged
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« Reply #8 on: November 22, 2017, 11:44:46 AM »

Quote
Also, if Capitol is getting good selling current BB albums, maybe they don't put together Endless Summer in 1974, and The Beach Boys never get transformed into a touring juke box, and don't try to copy themselves so much.    
 
You're kind of thinking along the same lines as I was.  Of course, we can't possibly know, but  amazing how one chance encounter  can alter the course of history.

I think the followup to Pet Sounds might have been similar to Wild Honey, personally. I definitely think it would have been a case where they did move on from the pre-Pet Sounds sounds. One thing, though..without that massive hype that SMiLE had, would they have faded out sooner than they did? GV would've bought them some time, but Brian was writing in snippets at that point either way. So, would we have gotten something SMiLE-ish but with different lyrics/concept?

I think, like I alluded to, you might've gotten songs similar to many of the Smile songs, but with different lyrics.  But I think without trying so hard to piece everything together into one cohesive piece, it would've wound up being just a collection of songs.  I'd like GV and H&V would still be on that album.  

I don't think it was the hype of Smile that led to them fading (in the eyes of the record buying public anyway).   I think it had more to do with following the hype of Smile with the....I'll just use Carl's word "bunt" that was Smiley Smile.

Granted, without Smile, I think the fanbase shifts a lot.  You might not have some of the indie fans discovering Brian Wilson late in his career.  You certainly wouldn't have had music fans taking bootlegs and trying to figure out how the album would've sounded.  
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« Reply #9 on: November 22, 2017, 11:45:38 AM »

Kind of a side point on the issue of how the BBs became a jukebox show in later years, I think it was inevitable to some degree, even if they *had* scored major hits later in the 70s or even the 80s.

Those early songs/hits were so great that they never would have abandoned them. There would have been various eras where those early hits saw renewed intensified interest. Had the BBs scored a few more legitimately hit albums in the 70s and 80s, the live show still would have had some surf and car songs.

If they had had some more hit singles in the 70s and 80s, those would have been integrated into the setlist (the same way "Kokomo" was in 1988). But if they had scored a hit album in, say, 1978, that never would have made them go back and do deep cuts regularly from 1969 or 1972 or whatever.
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« Reply #10 on: November 22, 2017, 11:47:03 AM »

Quote
The question then becomes, would a different collaborator have stood up to Mike more than Van did?

And if he did, how would Mike have reacted? Would the band have split then, or fired Mike?

This confrontation wouldn't have happened.  Other than Do It Again, Mike pretty much stopped writing songs about cars and surfing in the late 60s / early 70s.   Maybe Good Vibrations gets the Brian / Mike team really going again.
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« Reply #11 on: November 22, 2017, 11:48:55 AM »

Kind of a side point on the issue of how the BBs became a jukebox show in later years, I think it was inevitable to some degree, even if they *had* scored major hits later in the 70s or even the 80s.

Those early songs/hits were so great that they never would have abandoned them. There would have been various eras where those early hits saw renewed intensified interest. Had the BBs scored a few more legitimately hit albums in the 70s and 80s, the live show still would have had some surf and car songs.

If they had had some more hit singles in the 70s and 80s, those would have been integrated into the setlist (the same way "Kokomo" was in 1988). But if they had scored a hit album in, say, 1978, that never would have made them go back and do deep cuts regularly from 1969 or 1972 or whatever.


I think if they continued to have hits into the 70s or 80s, their setlists would be somewhat like with The Rolling Stones do with a good mix of the 60s, 70s, and 80s. 
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« Reply #12 on: November 22, 2017, 11:51:15 AM »

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The question then becomes, would a different collaborator have stood up to Mike more than Van did?

And if he did, how would Mike have reacted? Would the band have split then, or fired Mike?

This confrontation wouldn't have happened.  Other than Do It Again, Mike pretty much stopped writing songs about cars and surfing in the late 60s / early 70s.   Maybe Good Vibrations gets the Brian / Mike team really going again.

Just because Mike largely stopped writing songs about surfing and cars, that doesn’t mean he was happy about being sidelined as Brian‘s main collaborator. That would’ve still manifested in all sorts of icky behavior. Do you really doubt this?

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« Reply #13 on: November 22, 2017, 11:51:50 AM »

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Granted, without Smile, I think the fanbase shifts a lot.  You might not have some of the indie fans discovering Brian Wilson late in his career.  You certainly wouldn't have had music fans taking bootlegs and trying to figure out how the album would've sounded.  

I might not have ever become a fan then! Yikes that's a scary thought. Hell, I might not even be here today then. Double yikes.
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« Reply #14 on: November 22, 2017, 11:52:42 AM »

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The question then becomes, would a different collaborator have stood up to Mike more than Van did?

And if he did, how would Mike have reacted? Would the band have split then, or fired Mike?

This confrontation wouldn't have happened.  Other than Do It Again, Mike pretty much stopped writing songs about cars and surfing in the late 60s / early 70s.   Maybe Good Vibrations gets the Brian / Mike team really going again.

Just because Mike largely stopped writing songs about surfing and cars, that doesn’t mean he was happy about being sidelined as Brian‘s main collaborator. That would’ve still manifested in all sorts of icky behavior. Do you really doubt this?

Can't be certain.   If GV is a hit, and BW and VDP aren't trying to piece Smile together, whose to say that Brian and Mike don't start working more together? 
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« Reply #15 on: November 22, 2017, 11:53:44 AM »

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The question then becomes, would a different collaborator have stood up to Mike more than Van did?

And if he did, how would Mike have reacted? Would the band have split then, or fired Mike?

This confrontation wouldn't have happened.  Other than Do It Again, Mike pretty much stopped writing songs about cars and surfing in the late 60s / early 70s.   Maybe Good Vibrations gets the Brian / Mike team really going again.

Just because Mike largely stopped writing songs about surfing and cars, that doesn’t mean he was happy about being sidelined as Brian‘s main collaborator. That would’ve still manifested in all sorts of icky behavior. Do you really doubt this?

Can't be certain.   If GV is a hit, and BW and VDP aren't trying to piece Smile together, whose to say that Brian and Mike don't start working more together?  

Bottom line is: Brian could never, and I mean never, write a Beach Boys album with a different main collaborator other than Mike, without Mike throwing some sort of hissy fit about it. It would not ever happen.  Mike made the band a very toxic place for his cousin.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2017, 11:55:18 AM by CenturyDeprived » Logged
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« Reply #16 on: November 22, 2017, 11:57:12 AM »

Quote
The question then becomes, would a different collaborator have stood up to Mike more than Van did?

And if he did, how would Mike have reacted? Would the band have split then, or fired Mike?

This confrontation wouldn't have happened.  Other than Do It Again, Mike pretty much stopped writing songs about cars and surfing in the late 60s / early 70s.   Maybe Good Vibrations gets the Brian / Mike team really going again.

Just because Mike largely stopped writing songs about surfing and cars, that doesn’t mean he was happy about being sidelined as Brian‘s main collaborator. That would’ve still manifested in all sorts of icky behavior. Do you really doubt this?

Can't be certain.   If GV is a hit, and BW and VDP aren't trying to piece Smile together, whose to say that Brian and Mike don't start working more together?  

Bottom line is: Brian could never, and I mean never, write a Beach Boys album with a different main collaborator other than Mike, without Mike throwing some sort of hissy fit about it. It would not ever happen.  Mike made the band a very toxic place for his cousin.

What I'm saying is that Brian might not have gone to outside people without VDP. 

Like I said, if Asher were out of the picture, there's no Van Dyke, and GV becomes a huge hit, it would've led to more Brian / Mike songs in the late 60s / early 70s. 
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« Reply #17 on: November 22, 2017, 11:58:10 AM »

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The question then becomes, would a different collaborator have stood up to Mike more than Van did?

And if he did, how would Mike have reacted? Would the band have split then, or fired Mike?

This confrontation wouldn't have happened.  Other than Do It Again, Mike pretty much stopped writing songs about cars and surfing in the late 60s / early 70s.   Maybe Good Vibrations gets the Brian / Mike team really going again.

Just because Mike largely stopped writing songs about surfing and cars, that doesn’t mean he was happy about being sidelined as Brian‘s main collaborator. That would’ve still manifested in all sorts of icky behavior. Do you really doubt this?

Can't be certain.   If GV is a hit, and BW and VDP aren't trying to piece Smile together, whose to say that Brian and Mike don't start working more together?  

Bottom line is: Brian could never, and I mean never, write a Beach Boys album with a different main collaborator other than Mike, without Mike throwing some sort of hissy fit about it. It would not ever happen.  Mike made the band a very toxic place for his cousin.

What I'm saying is that Brian might not have gone to outside people without VDP. 

Like I said, if Asher were out of the picture, there's no Van Dyke, and GV becomes a huge hit, it would've led to more Brian / Mike songs in the late 60s / early 70s. 

Fair enough… But that said, if Brian still wanted to work with a different outside collaborator, don’t you think what I said is generally accurate?
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« Reply #18 on: November 22, 2017, 11:58:31 AM »

Quote
The question then becomes, would a different collaborator have stood up to Mike more than Van did?

And if he did, how would Mike have reacted? Would the band have split then, or fired Mike?

This confrontation wouldn't have happened.  Other than Do It Again, Mike pretty much stopped writing songs about cars and surfing in the late 60s / early 70s.   Maybe Good Vibrations gets the Brian / Mike team really going again.

Just because Mike largely stopped writing songs about surfing and cars, that doesn’t mean he was happy about being sidelined as Brian‘s main collaborator. That would’ve still manifested in all sorts of icky behavior. Do you really doubt this?



Maybe if the songs sold, he wouldn't have cared as much. In the In Concert book written by Jon Stebbins and Ian Rusten, there are quite a few tidbits of Mike being angry/borderline hostile towards fans who weren't digging the newer material as much, and was also a bit derisive towards the older songs. I think Endless Summer is what turned him into what we know as "Mike Love", because that sold and was all BW/ML compositions.

Not counting the Redwood thing, of course.

And then there's the fact that minus SMiLE, Brian may not have pulled back at all, and maybe Mike might have been WORSE....who knows>
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« Reply #19 on: November 22, 2017, 12:00:00 PM »

Quote
The question then becomes, would a different collaborator have stood up to Mike more than Van did?

And if he did, how would Mike have reacted? Would the band have split then, or fired Mike?

This confrontation wouldn't have happened.  Other than Do It Again, Mike pretty much stopped writing songs about cars and surfing in the late 60s / early 70s.   Maybe Good Vibrations gets the Brian / Mike team really going again.

Just because Mike largely stopped writing songs about surfing and cars, that doesn’t mean he was happy about being sidelined as Brian‘s main collaborator. That would’ve still manifested in all sorts of icky behavior. Do you really doubt this?



Maybe if the songs sold, he wouldn't have cared as much. In the In Concert book written by Jon Steebns and Ian Rusten, there are quite a few tidbits of Mike being angry/borderline hostile towards fans who weren't digging the newer material as much, and was also a bit derisive towards the older songs. I think Endless Summer is what turned him into what we know as "Mike Love", because that sold and was all BW/ML compositions.

 I know there is some interview, I can’t recall when, but perhaps the early 1990s… Where Mike speaks about not liking Brian collaborating with other people as early as several years before Pet Sounds. It was then and will always remain a problem,  even if he grinned and beared it sometimes.
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« Reply #20 on: November 22, 2017, 12:00:54 PM »

Quote
The question then becomes, would a different collaborator have stood up to Mike more than Van did?

And if he did, how would Mike have reacted? Would the band have split then, or fired Mike?

This confrontation wouldn't have happened.  Other than Do It Again, Mike pretty much stopped writing songs about cars and surfing in the late 60s / early 70s.   Maybe Good Vibrations gets the Brian / Mike team really going again.

Just because Mike largely stopped writing songs about surfing and cars, that doesn’t mean he was happy about being sidelined as Brian‘s main collaborator. That would’ve still manifested in all sorts of icky behavior. Do you really doubt this?



Maybe if the songs sold, he wouldn't have cared as much. In the In Concert book written by Jon Steebns and Ian Rusten, there are quite a few tidbits of Mike being angry/borderline hostile towards fans who weren't digging the newer material as much, and was also a bit derisive towards the older songs. I think Endless Summer is what turned him into what we know as "Mike Love", because that sold and was all BW/ML compositions.

 I know there is some interview, I can’t recall when, but perhaps the early 1990s… Where Mike speaks about not liking Briam collaborating with other people as early as several years before Pet Sounds. It was then and will always remain a problem.

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« Reply #21 on: November 22, 2017, 12:02:18 PM »

Quote
The question then becomes, would a different collaborator have stood up to Mike more than Van did?

And if he did, how would Mike have reacted? Would the band have split then, or fired Mike?

This confrontation wouldn't have happened.  Other than Do It Again, Mike pretty much stopped writing songs about cars and surfing in the late 60s / early 70s.   Maybe Good Vibrations gets the Brian / Mike team really going again.

Just because Mike largely stopped writing songs about surfing and cars, that doesn’t mean he was happy about being sidelined as Brian‘s main collaborator. That would’ve still manifested in all sorts of icky behavior. Do you really doubt this?

Can't be certain.   If GV is a hit, and BW and VDP aren't trying to piece Smile together, whose to say that Brian and Mike don't start working more together?  

Bottom line is: Brian could never, and I mean never, write a Beach Boys album with a different main collaborator other than Mike, without Mike throwing some sort of hissy fit about it. It would not ever happen.  Mike made the band a very toxic place for his cousin.

What I'm saying is that Brian might not have gone to outside people without VDP. 

Like I said, if Asher were out of the picture, there's no Van Dyke, and GV becomes a huge hit, it would've led to more Brian / Mike songs in the late 60s / early 70s. 

Fair enough… But that said, if Brian still wanted to work with a different outside collaborator, don’t you think what I said is generally accurate?

It depends.  If the songs had mass appeal, and actually sold, I think it's possible Mike would be more on board.   I think with Van Dyke, Mike was more concerned that the lyrics were a little too out there for The Beach Boys than being shut out of the process.  
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« Reply #22 on: November 22, 2017, 12:03:39 PM »

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The question then becomes, would a different collaborator have stood up to Mike more than Van did?

And if he did, how would Mike have reacted? Would the band have split then, or fired Mike?

This confrontation wouldn't have happened.  Other than Do It Again, Mike pretty much stopped writing songs about cars and surfing in the late 60s / early 70s.   Maybe Good Vibrations gets the Brian / Mike team really going again.

The issue with Mike and other "non-Mike-ish" content (for lack of something else to call it) was less about other writers taking Mike to task for writing "surf and car" songs, and more Mike having varying amounts of negativity towards downer/somber, etc. types of music. Someone calling "'Til I Die" too much of a downer is still apparently apocryphal to some degree, but Mike has gone on record taking issue with some of the lyrics to the song (in particular the line "it kills my soul").

Look at Mike's reaction to the ending suite on TWGMTR. 50 years into the band and he's the one who's taking issue with whatever he feels that "type" of music is.

Nobody was in the studio (whether Joe Thomas or Brian or anyone else) taking issue with the "retro" lyrics Mike was adding to the proceedings on that album.

I don't think the band was ever going to fire Mike for wanting to write certain types of stuff or not wanting to write other types of stuff. But the antagonism concerning the artistry involved in writing lyrics (and more generally the themes/tone of the lyrics) has usually seemed to emanate from Mike.

I also think Mike has a built-in impulse to criticize stuff he didn't co-write. Again, he has gone on record saying he wasn't enamored with Brian writing with outside writers. That admission (albeit limited in nature and scope) is to his credit.
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« Reply #23 on: November 22, 2017, 12:04:14 PM »

Quote
The question then becomes, would a different collaborator have stood up to Mike more than Van did?

And if he did, how would Mike have reacted? Would the band have split then, or fired Mike?

This confrontation wouldn't have happened.  Other than Do It Again, Mike pretty much stopped writing songs about cars and surfing in the late 60s / early 70s.   Maybe Good Vibrations gets the Brian / Mike team really going again.

Just because Mike largely stopped writing songs about surfing and cars, that doesn’t mean he was happy about being sidelined as Brian‘s main collaborator. That would’ve still manifested in all sorts of icky behavior. Do you really doubt this?



Maybe if the songs sold, he wouldn't have cared as much. In the In Concert book written by Jon Steebns and Ian Rusten, there are quite a few tidbits of Mike being angry/borderline hostile towards fans who weren't digging the newer material as much, and was also a bit derisive towards the older songs. I think Endless Summer is what turned him into what we know as "Mike Love", because that sold and was all BW/ML compositions.

 I know there is some interview, I can’t recall when, but perhaps the early 1990s… Where Mike speaks about not liking Brian collaborating with other people as early as several years before Pet Sounds. It was then and will always remain a problem,  even if he grinned and beared it sometimes.

To be fair, Mike probably also didn't like the fact that these outside writers managed to get songwriting credits while Mike didn't.  
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« Reply #24 on: November 22, 2017, 12:04:32 PM »

Quote
The question then becomes, would a different collaborator have stood up to Mike more than Van did?

And if he did, how would Mike have reacted? Would the band have split then, or fired Mike?

This confrontation wouldn't have happened.  Other than Do It Again, Mike pretty much stopped writing songs about cars and surfing in the late 60s / early 70s.   Maybe Good Vibrations gets the Brian / Mike team really going again.

Just because Mike largely stopped writing songs about surfing and cars, that doesn’t mean he was happy about being sidelined as Brian‘s main collaborator. That would’ve still manifested in all sorts of icky behavior. Do you really doubt this?



Maybe if the songs sold, he wouldn't have cared as much. In the In Concert book written by Jon Steebns and Ian Rusten, there are quite a few tidbits of Mike being angry/borderline hostile towards fans who weren't digging the newer material as much, and was also a bit derisive towards the older songs. I think Endless Summer is what turned him into what we know as "Mike Love", because that sold and was all BW/ML compositions.

 I know there is some interview, I can’t recall when, but perhaps the early 1990s… Where Mike speaks about not liking Briam collaborating with other people as early as several years before Pet Sounds. It was then and will always remain a problem.

Edited my post...

I think Mike was always jealous that songs like In My Room and Don’t Worry Baby were among the most best loved songs that the band ever did. To many people, those are the signature songs by the band, far more than any collaboration that he worked on.  Mike is the guy who is trying to say that he should have written Pet Sounds, after all.  The idea that he would just passively allow somebody to have their way with Brian in a creative space is unthinkable to him.

 I think Mike feels some sort of sick “ownership“ and entitlement to writing with Brian because they are family, and because they had hits together in the early years. Outsiders would ALWAYS be on his sh*t list, especially because they could easily spot the toxic behavior he exhibited.  Mike could always better get away with that kind of stuff behind closed doors, and without pesky outsiders or spouses.
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