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Author Topic: "Wild Honey" discussion with David Beard on WFDU  (Read 2199 times)
Howie Edelson
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« Reply #25 on: October 23, 2017, 05:07:20 PM »

The solution to all of this is to have a Beach Boys version of Howie Edelson's "Fabcast", which is by and for hardcore fans, and gets into what matters instead of "which band members is your dog most like?" sort of topics.

I wish and hope that before too long maybe I have the time to get something like that up and going (at least an attempt to do so). And/or, I'll slowly try to convince Howie to do it. Such a thing would undoubtedly have a limited, niche audience (to start with, anyway). But we’re all getting older and we’re 56 years into this band. So it’s not out of line for us to ask for something the delves deeper and doesn’t need to cater to a wide, novice, “casual fan” or “non-fan” audience. But I also realize asking for it doesn’t get it done. 

Thanks Jude.
We're doing our best.

Re: A similar BB's show -- be careful what you wish for. . . .
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« Reply #26 on: October 23, 2017, 05:40:45 PM »

Thought it was a great discussion. Some of you need to fucken chill

Also whoa, Brian didn't produce I Was Made to Love Her but did co-produce How She Boogalooed It? I didn't see that one coming. Adds even more mystery to the 'Produced by Brian Wilson' credit on the original lineup when IWMTLH was still part of the album then. Now I'm super interested to know how much of Friends Brian actually produced, because that's always felt like a more Brian-centric album than anything between Smiley and Love You but it also seems to be around the time Carl and the others were stepping up to contribute a lot more.

Well, it's always possible that Brian was involved in producing the overdubs for "IWMTLH" - the basic track was VERY sparse:  just minimal guitar by Carl and hi-hat by Dennis - Al was playing bass on the earlier takes, but dropped out well before the final take - so most of what we hear on the record (more guitar, full drums, funky Ron Brown bass playing, keyboards, tambourine - and of course, vocals) were added later.

I've heard most (not all) of the Friends album session tapes, and can tell you - Brian was also the main producer on THAT album. Based on the session tape I've heard, I'd have to say Brian and Dennis co-produced "Little Bird" pretty much 50%/50%. And, honestly, Murry co-produced "Meant For You" and "Transcendental Meditation". But the rest of the album, I believe, was Brian producing. Heck, the other guys weren't even in L.A. when the last three  tracks on that album were cut, as they were away on tour.

As for Carl's increasing role in the studio - well, he definitely started singing more leads with the Smiley Smile album (as the back cover credits make a point of mentioning), and that trend certainly continued with Wild Honey. Carl was there for pretty much all the backing track sessions on both '67 albums - in many cases, those tracks were laid down initially with just two instruments - Brian's piano and Carl's bass - and built up later (or not, in the case of some Smiley Smile cuts). So Carl was definitely plugging away in the studio, right next to Bri. And, to be honest, he may very well have helped produce overdubs and mixdowns - I can't be sure about that. But I do seem to remember a radio interview with Carl from around '88 - I think it was a multi-part series - where Carl said the first record he produced was "Do It Again" (which, as we know, is credited as a Brian-Carl co-production on the 20/20 album). I also recall the discussion Pete Fornatale had with Dennis (November '76), where Dennis stated it was Brian's own idea to change the production credit on their albums to read "Produced by The Beach Boys" (instead of saying "Produced by Brian Wilson) - and that this was a way of de-emphasizing his own role, to remove some of the pressure he was feeling. Of course, by the time of the 20/20 album, it was a truthful credit, as Brian had kind of abandoned the group (only to briefly return, production-wise, for Sunflower). And on 20/20, they even made a point of listing individual producers on specific cuts.

So, the point is, what may have initially started as a ruse by Brian to take some of the spotlight off of himself while still making records (simpler ones, for sure) eventually turned into "truth in advertising", as Brian made a deliberate departure from the group's activities, and the others were forced to "step up to the plate".

Thanks for the info! It's always fascinating reading your insights on this stuff. And hearing that Brian was in fact the dominant producer on pretty much all of Friends is life affirming Tongue  

The idea of Murry co-producing a song where Brian just screams "IT'S GOOD" about transcendental meditation for 2 minutes is uhh...um...how did that end up happening? I think I kind of love it even more now?

With Brian still effectively running the show on Friends that mid-1968 transition period gets even more interesting. He really did drop off incredibly fast. You mention that Do It Again was a true Brian/Carl co-production for the first time, and that also kinda seems like the dynamic on the SoT session for Walk On By. Brian and Carl sound pretty much on equal footing there for contributing ideas and bouncing off of each other, Brian coming up with the concept of a Burt Bacharach medley on the spot and Carl throwing in whatever the other song is etc. Do we know if Brian produced the other songs from around that short era with Carl or anyone else's help? Sail Plane Song, I Went to Sleep (pre-vocals), We're Together Again, Walkin'...I'm assuming Ol' Man River is pure 100% Brian. And Brian also seems to be completely in charge on Can't Wait Too Long but that was a while after the whole Ol' Man River thing happened. Could Brian's "summer '68" mental institution visit have actually happened during the 20/20 sessions, and that's why he's barely on any of them? I think I remember a quote from Desper in the Catch a Wave book about "sessions carrying on at the house" without him, and that doesn't sound like it could've been possible for any of the material recorded in the middle of the year. Would explain his sudden reappearance halfway through making the album with Cotton Fields and vocals for I Went to Sleep and Time to Get Alone (if I've managed to remember the rough timeline lol)
« Last Edit: October 23, 2017, 05:43:23 PM by wjcrerar » Logged
guitarfool2002
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« Reply #27 on: October 23, 2017, 07:29:38 PM »

Adding up the posts since my last - It seems clear, if not crystal clear and in Technicolor to boot, that the actual tapes both tell the real story and are the proof to say Brian was "calling the shots" for the majority of the productions until the period after Friends. We also know possible reasons for an actual pulling away if not dropping out during that time period (late Spring '68), then coming back sporadically when the muse hit him to come to the studio and do some work.

I appreciate and thank C-Man Craig for detailing all of that information.

What I do find sad in a lot of ways is that some people have been saying all of this same stuff and even having to argue these points when the statements show up that Carl produced most of Wild Honey, Brian dropped out and pulled back in late '67, Carl did most of Friends, and any variations on those themes. It simply was not true. C-Man had the access to the tapes officially - Others may have known details from those who also did but couldn't say much more due to other issues. Still more have done simple things like researching, digging, and asking people specific questions.

Yet there is still this bizarre mindset where people who have been published and considered authorities will continue to basically perpetuate a myth that Carl did much much more than he actually did on the albums up to Friends, especially in the nuts and bolts production or in terms of what a producer actually does when making a record.

I seriously don't get it. I've been arguing these things for quite a few years, in the specific case of this thread I even exchanged emails with David on this exact topic and issue and posted a lot on this. It's like talking into a dead phone after awhile, and to hear a direct quote on a broadcast still doing the same thing after all the info and tapes and firsthand accounts and all else...I'm just baffled and frustrated by a seeming lack of ability to accept fact over what's been erroneously reported for too long.

And then to have it turned on me for revising the quote, or some other rationale and see what looked like backpedaling...again, I just don't get this mindset. The words were spoken and recorded, they're there just like the session tapes from Fall 1967 for anyone to hear and interpret. But it's hard to take "calling the shots" to mean anything in or on the fringes of the context presented except producing the tracks and making the decisions, since the producer "calls the shots".

If these points have been made for years, if the proof came out in tapes released and more tapes are in the vaults backing it up, why was it necessary for C-Man or anyone to have to keep offering more proof when it should have been a closed case years ago? Not taking away from Carl, but why are there these various efforts to overcredit him on projects from this era? At some point it has to end and these comments have to be retracted and corrected, especially from people who are presented as authorities on the subject.


Final request: For the benefit of anyone who may think it's being misread, misunderstood, or revised, I'll flip the question a bit.

***What would be inaccurate in saying "Brian was calling the shots" in the context of Wild Honey?***

I'll gladly have a conversation with anyone on that question, in fact I'd welcome any dialogue on that topic.



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« Reply #28 on: October 23, 2017, 07:59:20 PM »


***What would be inaccurate in saying "Brian was calling the shots" in the context of Wild Honey?***

I'll gladly have a conversation with anyone on that question, in fact I'd welcome any dialogue on that topic.

Unfortunately, it is a semantic issue here; you would need to clarify, specifically, what "calling shots" entails, and also what "the context of Wild Honey"  refers to. On the actual physical recording of the album, I'm not sure that anyone would dispute that Brian produced it and/or was in control of the recording. Likewise the writing of the music.  But the question of whether Brian is "in control" during the Wild Honey era, or time period as a whole, is a different question.  I would think that it's pretty settled that the "Redwood Affair" establishes that Brian is not in control.  The scene depicted by Chuck Negron, for example, is not that of a man who is in control of his creativity as the Beach Boys are ramping up to make a new album at the end of 1967.  That is, anyone who wants to claim that Brian is "doing what he wants to do" during the Wild Honey era would have to somehow explain away the Redwood incident. 
Maybe the distinction between different kinds of "control" is where the confusion is coming from. Maybe the overall answer is that Brian is in control during Wild Honey but boundaries have been set (collectively, by the organization, and within Brian's psyche) as to how that control will be exercised. 
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Howie Edelson
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« Reply #29 on: October 23, 2017, 08:06:42 PM »

I've heard the raw session tapes.
Brian Wilson is 1000 percent just as "in charge" / "producing" / "in control" (choose your semantic) as he was during the PS sessions.
Same dude -- different recording situation.

After hearing those raw sessions -- I promise you -- there is NO ONE HERE that could single out any other human as being the creator/producer of that LP.
Brian's baby all the way.
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guitarfool2002
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« Reply #30 on: October 23, 2017, 08:15:41 PM »

I've heard the raw session tapes.
Brian Wilson is 1000 percent just as "in charge" / "producing" / "in control" (choose your semantic) as he was during the PS sessions.
Same dude -- different recording situation.

After hearing those raw sessions -- I promise you -- there is NO ONE HERE that could single out any other human as being the creator/producer of that LP.
Brian's baby all the way.


Thanks for adding your input Howie. The evidence and proof keeps piling up, and makes this case all but airtight and all but closed as to Brian's involvement in the album.

Anyone who questions it or continues to suggest someone other than Brian called the shots as has been done (sadly) too often by people who should know better...words and descriptions fail. Fact is fact, and it's all preserved on tape.
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« Reply #31 on: October 23, 2017, 08:22:49 PM »

Unfortunately, it is a semantic issue here; you would need to clarify, specifically, what "calling shots" entails, and also what "the context of Wild Honey"  refers to. On the actual physical recording of the album, I'm not sure that anyone would dispute that Brian produced it and/or was in control of the recording. Likewise the writing of the music.  But the question of whether Brian is "in control" during the Wild Honey era, or time period as a whole, is a different question.  I would think that it's pretty settled that the "Redwood Affair" establishes that Brian is not in control.  The scene depicted by Chuck Negron, for example, is not that of a man who is in control of his creativity as the Beach Boys are ramping up to make a new album at the end of 1967.  That is, anyone who wants to claim that Brian is "doing what he wants to do" during the Wild Honey era would have to somehow explain away the Redwood incident.  
Maybe the distinction between different kinds of "control" is where the confusion is coming from. Maybe the overall answer is that Brian is in control during Wild Honey but boundaries have been set (collectively, by the organization, and within Brian's psyche) as to how that control will be exercised.  

Thanks for the reply Jake. Please go back to the original words and re-read what David said as re-posted by Ghosty who hosted the show:


The exact quote (and we were talking about Carl's lead vocal on the song "Wild Honey", for context) is as follows:

"Carl was the right guy for the job. Brian was still...I'm not going to say calling the shots because that would be inaccurate...Brian was active but I think the reason that Carl is so present on this Wild Honey album is because this is where Brian is kind of pulling away, because Brian could've easily sang a lot of this stuff that Carl's singing but we do hear Brian singing on the album where the stuff is more personal".


I'm curious to know in what context or what semantics you read from David's quote. I cannot clarify for someone else (Jake) what another someone else (David) meant or intended to say, I can only read it as it appears above. Curious how you read it or what you took it to be a reference for, especially what would be inaccurate in that context, then we'll discuss further.
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"There was no up front fees, period. swedishfrog  and I paid for the domain name. As of June 19, 2016 at 4:32pm edt, that is all I was charged for." - Dr. Beach Boy
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« Reply #32 on: October 23, 2017, 08:46:13 PM »

Unfortunately, it is a semantic issue here; you would need to clarify, specifically, what "calling shots" entails, and also what "the context of Wild Honey"  refers to. On the actual physical recording of the album, I'm not sure that anyone would dispute that Brian produced it and/or was in control of the recording. Likewise the writing of the music.  But the question of whether Brian is "in control" during the Wild Honey era, or time period as a whole, is a different question.  I would think that it's pretty settled that the "Redwood Affair" establishes that Brian is not in control.  The scene depicted by Chuck Negron, for example, is not that of a man who is in control of his creativity as the Beach Boys are ramping up to make a new album at the end of 1967.  That is, anyone who wants to claim that Brian is "doing what he wants to do" during the Wild Honey era would have to somehow explain away the Redwood incident.  
Maybe the distinction between different kinds of "control" is where the confusion is coming from. Maybe the overall answer is that Brian is in control during Wild Honey but boundaries have been set (collectively, by the organization, and within Brian's psyche) as to how that control will be exercised.  

Thanks for the reply Jake. Please go back to the original words and re-read what David said as re-posted by Ghosty who hosted the show:


The exact quote (and we were talking about Carl's lead vocal on the song "Wild Honey", for context) is as follows:

"Carl was the right guy for the job. Brian was still...I'm not going to say calling the shots because that would be inaccurate...Brian was active but I think the reason that Carl is so present on this Wild Honey album is because this is where Brian is kind of pulling away, because Brian could've easily sang a lot of this stuff that Carl's singing but we do hear Brian singing on the album where the stuff is more personal".


I'm curious to know in what context or what semantics you read from David's quote. I cannot clarify for someone else (Jake) what another someone else (David) meant or intended to say, I can only read it as it appears above. Curious how you read it or what you took it to be a reference for, especially what would be inaccurate in that context, then we'll discuss further.


Actually I accidentally misquoted David. It isn't "right man for the job" but rather "right man for the song". Carry on.
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« Reply #33 on: October 23, 2017, 08:51:57 PM »

But why say that saying Brian was still calling the shots was "inaccurate "? That's what the issue with this is.

The exact quote (and we were talking about Carl's lead vocal on the song "Wild Honey", for context) is as follows:

"Carl was the right guy for the job. Brian was still...I'm not going to say calling the shots because that would be inaccurate...Brian was active but I think the reason that Carl is so present on this Wild Honey album is because this is where Brian is kind of pulling away, because Brian could've easily sang a lot of this stuff that Carl's singing but we do hear Brian singing on the album where the stuff is more personal".

I don't know where someone gets "Carl produced the album" out of that, nor is that ever said during the course of the conversation. We do say that Carl's love of RnB may have influenced Brian's songwriting. In the liner notes for "Sunshine Tomorrow" Al Jardine states that Carl was getting into production at this time, presumably learning from Brian. We don't even go THAT far.  Lol

Anyway, thanks to the folks who said they enjoyed it and even if you didn't that's cool too.

Ahh...I thought it was referring to the ALBUM,  not the song
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« Reply #34 on: October 23, 2017, 08:57:33 PM »

I'm curious to know in what context or what semantics you read from David's quote. I cannot clarify for someone else (Jake) what another someone else (David) meant or intended to say, I can only read it as it appears above. Curious how you read it or what you took it to be a reference for, especially what would be inaccurate in that context, then we'll discuss further.

I did listen to the interview (thanks Ghosty). Going from the language you quoted above, I don't know what to make of it... I'm not privy to a lot of the politics, but it sounds to me like Beard is offering a theory of what went down during the recording of Wild Honey... if he meant to say that Carl produced it, then I would disagree with him, but I don't know if he's saying that.  I personally give him the benefit of the doubt and assume that he was  trying to encapsulate, or summarize a subtle shift in the balance of creative power in the group which was occurring in the post-Smile years.  Beyond that, I don't know.

Whether or not Brian was "pulling away" is, to me, a complicated question. Obviously, he was present and accounted for during the recording of Wild Honey -you can hear that even without hearing session tapes, and moreover, I thought it had been accepted that Carl didn't really begin to step up as a producer until his work on "I Can Hear Music." (I could be wrong).  Therefore, it could only have been Brian running the show on Wild Honey.  But Brian could have done that job, been engaged in it, sung on the album, and, at the same time, still be "pulling away" in some other, less tangible, more psychological sense.  But I don't know... in spite of all the talk about the "mystery" of Smile, to me, Wild Honey (and Smiley Smile and 15 Big Ones) are more mysterious and hard to explain.
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« Reply #35 on: October 23, 2017, 09:01:08 PM »

But why say that saying Brian was still calling the shots was "inaccurate "? That's what the issue with this is.

The exact quote (and we were talking about Carl's lead vocal on the song "Wild Honey", for context) is as follows:

"Carl was the right guy for the job. Brian was still...I'm not going to say calling the shots because that would be inaccurate...Brian was active but I think the reason that Carl is so present on this Wild Honey album is because this is where Brian is kind of pulling away, because Brian could've easily sang a lot of this stuff that Carl's singing but we do hear Brian singing on the album where the stuff is more personal".

I don't know where someone gets "Carl produced the album" out of that, nor is that ever said during the course of the conversation. We do say that Carl's love of RnB may have influenced Brian's songwriting. In the liner notes for "Sunshine Tomorrow" Al Jardine states that Carl was getting into production at this time, presumably learning from Brian. We don't even go THAT far.  Lol

Anyway, thanks to the folks who said they enjoyed it and even if you didn't that's cool too.

Ahh...I thought it was referring to the ALBUM,  not the song

Song or album or whatever, the issue is exactly as you posed the question Billy - Why did David say that Brian "calling the shots" was inaccurate? The logic applied to choosing who sang the song or an aspect of the album related to Brian "pulling away" isn't even valid.
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« Reply #36 on: October 23, 2017, 09:03:40 PM »

Not that anyone asked, but at 21:19 you can hear my summation of the album and who is responsible for it.
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« Reply #37 on: October 23, 2017, 09:04:57 PM »

Thought it was a great discussion. Some of you need to fucken chill

Also whoa, Brian didn't produce I Was Made to Love Her but did co-produce How She Boogalooed It? I didn't see that one coming. Adds even more mystery to the 'Produced by Brian Wilson' credit on the original lineup when IWMTLH was still part of the album then. Now I'm super interested to know how much of Friends Brian actually produced, because that's always felt like a more Brian-centric album than anything between Smiley and Love You but it also seems to be around the time Carl and the others were stepping up to contribute a lot more.

Well, it's always possible that Brian was involved in producing the overdubs for "IWMTLH" - the basic track was VERY sparse:  just minimal guitar by Carl and hi-hat by Dennis - Al was playing bass on the earlier takes, but dropped out well before the final take - so most of what we hear on the record (more guitar, full drums, funky Ron Brown bass playing, keyboards, tambourine - and of course, vocals) were added later.

I've heard most (not all) of the Friends album session tapes, and can tell you - Brian was also the main producer on THAT album. Based on the session tape I've heard, I'd have to say Brian and Dennis co-produced "Little Bird" pretty much 50%/50%. And, honestly, Murry co-produced "Meant For You" and "Transcendental Meditation". But the rest of the album, I believe, was Brian producing. Heck, the other guys weren't even in L.A. when the last three  tracks on that album were cut, as they were away on tour.

As for Carl's increasing role in the studio - well, he definitely started singing more leads with the Smiley Smile album (as the back cover credits make a point of mentioning), and that trend certainly continued with Wild Honey. Carl was there for pretty much all the backing track sessions on both '67 albums - in many cases, those tracks were laid down initially with just two instruments - Brian's piano and Carl's bass - and built up later (or not, in the case of some Smiley Smile cuts). So Carl was definitely plugging away in the studio, right next to Bri. And, to be honest, he may very well have helped produce overdubs and mixdowns - I can't be sure about that. But I do seem to remember a radio interview with Carl from around '88 - I think it was a multi-part series - where Carl said the first record he produced was "Do It Again" (which, as we know, is credited as a Brian-Carl co-production on the 20/20 album). I also recall the discussion Pete Fornatale had with Dennis (November '76), where Dennis stated it was Brian's own idea to change the production credit on their albums to read "Produced by The Beach Boys" (instead of saying "Produced by Brian Wilson) - and that this was a way of de-emphasizing his own role, to remove some of the pressure he was feeling. Of course, by the time of the 20/20 album, it was a truthful credit, as Brian had kind of abandoned the group (only to briefly return, production-wise, for Sunflower). And on 20/20, they even made a point of listing individual producers on specific cuts.

So, the point is, what may have initially started as a ruse by Brian to take some of the spotlight off of himself while still making records (simpler ones, for sure) eventually turned into "truth in advertising", as Brian made a deliberate departure from the group's activities, and the others were forced to "step up to the plate".

Thank you for that, especially in regards to Friends!
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« Reply #38 on: October 23, 2017, 09:20:22 PM »

I'm curious to know in what context or what semantics you read from David's quote. I cannot clarify for someone else (Jake) what another someone else (David) meant or intended to say, I can only read it as it appears above. Curious how you read it or what you took it to be a reference for, especially what would be inaccurate in that context, then we'll discuss further.

I did listen to the interview (thanks Ghosty). Going from the language you quoted above, I don't know what to make of it... I'm not privy to a lot of the politics, but it sounds to me like Beard is offering a theory of what went down during the recording of Wild Honey... if he meant to say that Carl produced it, then I would disagree with him, but I don't know if he's saying that.  I personally give him the benefit of the doubt and assume that he was  trying to encapsulate, or summarize a subtle shift in the balance of creative power in the group which was occurring in the post-Smile years.  Beyond that, I don't know.

Whether or not Brian was "pulling away" is, to me, a complicated question. Obviously, he was present and accounted for during the recording of Wild Honey -you can hear that even without hearing session tapes, and moreover, I thought it had been accepted that Carl didn't really begin to step up as a producer until his work on "I Can Hear Music." (I could be wrong).  Therefore, it could only have been Brian running the show on Wild Honey.  But Brian could have done that job, been engaged in it, sung on the album, and, at the same time, still be "pulling away" in some other, less tangible, more psychological sense.  But I don't know... in spite of all the talk about the "mystery" of Smile, to me, Wild Honey (and Smiley Smile and 15 Big Ones) are more mysterious and hard to explain.

I agree with you on some key points Jake. It is a mystery. I'm still waiting for someone to truly reveal what happened when the band returned from The European tour in late Spring '67 and the subsequent weeks saw all recording move into Brian's living room. The closest we got on an inside view was from Nick Grillo and something Derek Taylor hinted at in an article. But that's it.

But you basically spelled out a lot of the issues and reasons I had in mind too. The "I Can Hear Music" point is one that has pretty much been accepted - Carl did not do a full production until that track, and he himself said that.

Which leads me again to challenge why writers like Peter Reum have in the past suggested and even argued that Carl produced most of Wild Honey, and why David in this case made the statement about "calling the shots" if it wasn't specific to producing or was about the WH song's lead vocal or even other issues.

Let me expand briefly on that: I've already outlined it, but on that point *if* that is what David was referring too, the lead vocal, even *that* reference falls flat. Brian always chose who was going to sing his songs. If he felt Carl could do it better, or even if he wrote a song for Carl's voice, or Mike's, or Al's...that's who sang it. We can give numerous, famous examples from God Only Knows to Help Me Rhonda to Vegetables to I Know There's An Answer. Brian could and did sing every harmony and lead part on tracks like those in the demo stages. But for the final lead, he'd choose a lead voice if he had someone in mind.

It makes no sense to suggest Carl singing the title track or even his other leads on WH album indicated Brian "pulling away" any more than Brian giving the leads to Carl, Mike, and Al on Pet Sounds would suggest he was "pulling away" in mid-1966. It's illogical and flawed to make that connection, and Brian to this day records music that same way, he deals out the leads on his songs. "The Right Time" being only one example.

He's usually right. Brian knows voices.  Smiley

And even your possibility of what "pulling away" could mean has no connection to Carl singing on Wild Honey if that's what David was suggesting, nor does it connect to Brian's work on the album or that single if David says it would be inaccurate to say Brian was calling the shots. Again, it's not just illogical but almost bizarre...

Keep in mind too that the Wild Honey single was recorded and released before the album itself was recorded and weeks prior to the blowup at the Redwood session. So I still can't see a connection with making a comment about calling the shots and this vocal on this single, if that's supposed to be the reference and context.
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« Reply #39 on: October 23, 2017, 09:24:49 PM »

Not that anyone asked, but at 21:19 you can hear my summation of the album and who is responsible for it.

Your comments were never an issue, Ghosty. Speaking for myself. It was what David said that didn't sit right.
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« Reply #40 on: October 24, 2017, 02:02:19 AM »



Your post hit just before mine - but yes, from what I've ascertained, you have it right. EDIT: I'm talking about your first two paragraphs - as for the third, I don't know if Brian was looking that far into the future, but I do know by the time of 20/20, Brian had apparently been institutionalized for a spell, and came back "not quite the same" (by all accounts). Maybe THAT had something to do with his subsequent dis-interest in the group's output...or maybe he was just bored with the BBs-scene by then...we do know his interest bounced back for Sunflower, and that he was so hurt by that album's lack of commercial success, that he retreated "back to the bushes" (as Carl put it) for the next three albums...


I seem to remember Stephen Desper posting on this board that Brian was totally calling the shots (to use that term) as well for "Break away" which everyone expected to become their next big hit.
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« Reply #41 on: October 24, 2017, 04:48:21 AM »

So long
Now look what you've done, guys. Thud
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« Reply #42 on: October 24, 2017, 06:12:58 AM »

So long
Now look what you've done, guys. Thud

Oh no! We lost David Beard, who really contributed um....so...um....much....to this....um...

.....no he didn't. Good riddance if he can't be part of a give and take.
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« Reply #43 on: October 24, 2017, 06:51:23 AM »

So long
Now look what you've done, guys. Thud

Although I find GF's approach to discussions like this obnoxious, I'll take obnoxious nitpicking over "I'm going to take my ball and go home" any day.
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« Reply #44 on: October 24, 2017, 07:16:04 AM »

Whether one enjoys Mr. Beard's posts or other work or not, it should be pointed out that he essentially left this board a year ago. Nobody was run off. I'm really not a fan of the "look what you've done, guys" sort of stuff, because all it leads to is people clamming up and fawning when anybody outside normal fandom (e.g. writers, publishers, producers, engineers, etc.) posts here.

I personally think what he initially appears to have done, which was to come back on and defend his words, was the way to go and everybody would respect someone more for sticking up for what they've written or said or otherwise published.

I would encourage him and anybody else to stick around and stand up for their opinions and work. It won't always be warm and fuzzy, and if the discussion/debate becomes circular and unproductive, it's not like it has to continue indefinitely.

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« Reply #45 on: October 24, 2017, 07:21:18 AM »

I've heard the raw session tapes.
Brian Wilson is 1000 percent just as "in charge" / "producing" / "in control" (choose your semantic) as he was during the PS sessions.
Same dude -- different recording situation.

After hearing those raw sessions -- I promise you -- there is NO ONE HERE that could single out any other human as being the creator/producer of that LP.
Brian's baby all the way.


I remember when the "Wild Honey" SOT set first hit, listening to the "Here Comes the Night" session and hearing that they were doing the "modular" thing, even if in a more straight-forward fashion, recording one verse and chorus and then stopping, and then looping that. In cases like that, you wouldn't even need a single voice on the session or on the talkback to deduce that it's Brian doing that. Nobody else in the band was into "producing" enough, or had the experience, to use such a specific, arguably slightly peculiar recording method.

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« Reply #46 on: October 24, 2017, 08:07:38 AM »

So long
Now look what you've done, guys. Thud

Although I find GF's approach to discussions like this obnoxious, I'll take obnoxious nitpicking over "I'm going to take my ball and go home" any day.

Agree fully. I think GF is well-intentioned, if a little overboard sometimes. But I'll take being a stickler for getting things right over somebody who thinks they deserve to have us bow down to him because he has access to the band (and likely now, only to Mike since he called Brian brain damaged).
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« Reply #47 on: October 24, 2017, 09:35:51 AM »

So long
Now look what you've done, guys. Thud

Although I find GF's approach to discussions like this obnoxious, I'll take obnoxious nitpicking over "I'm going to take my ball and go home" any day.

Agree fully. I think GF is well-intentioned, if a little overboard sometimes. But I'll take being a stickler for getting things right over somebody who thinks they deserve to have us bow down to him because he has access to the band (and likely now, only to Mike since he called Brian brain damaged).

Actually, David speaks with Brian several times a year. David had just interviewed Brian a few days before we did that Wild Honey track-by-track.
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« Reply #48 on: October 24, 2017, 10:05:23 AM »

So long
Now look what you've done, guys. Thud

Although I find GF's approach to discussions like this obnoxious, I'll take obnoxious nitpicking over "I'm going to take my ball and go home" any day.

Agree fully. I think GF is well-intentioned, if a little overboard sometimes. But I'll take being a stickler for getting things right over somebody who thinks they deserve to have us bow down to him because he has access to the band (and likely now, only to Mike since he called Brian brain damaged).

Actually, David speaks with Brian several times a year. David had just interviewed Brian a few days before we did that Wild Honey track-by-track.
And it's worth noting that David apologized to Melinda and Brian not long after he wrote that article.  Brian has moved on, so hopefully sweetdudejim can as well.
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« Reply #49 on: October 24, 2017, 10:23:31 AM »

The fact that Brian is generous enough (and has a good enough PR sense) to continue to give ESQ interviews doesn't negate that the infamous "brain damaged" article was out of line. I can't be alone in sensing the hugely strange irony that one of the most obvious, malignant hit pieces to be written about Brian came from the publisher of a Beach Boys fanzine, and in fact the *only* fanzine, one that Brian had contributed interviews *and exclusive music* to in the past.

I don't think it even takes an insider or someone with superhuman knowledge of the politics within the band to point out that Brian and his camp *surely* are aware of what politics and angles were involved in those pieces that gave Mike free reign to tear down NPP and Brian, to pump up and promote Mike's tour while backhandedly complimenting Brian for "occasionally" joining in at his own concerts. That Brian will still give an interview to ESQ says a lot about Brian and that, I'm guessing, it's about, in part, acknowledging that the fans are more important than some old insulting article.

But, as has been mentioned, hopefully everybody has moved on.
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