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Author Topic: Brian Wilson - 2018 Tour Thread  (Read 272525 times)
HeyJude
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« Reply #375 on: January 30, 2018, 10:42:38 AM »

Here's an additional, pretty simple reason why someone bringing up Brian's "health", especially someone who tends to be more apologetic regarding some (but not all) of Mike Love's faults, is going to be met with extra skepticism:

There is a pattern, especially over the last 4-5 years, of Mike Love giving interviews and, without prompting, going to town on Brian's past drug/substance abuse problems (certainly "health" issues), the substance abuse problems of Brian's brothers, and Brian's present health in terms of being "medicated." Mike has gone so far as to liken Brian's current status to that of his time with Landy in the 80s/early 90. In addition (and coming across as in conjunction with Mike), one noted publisher of a BB fanzine wrote an article online that was outright *offensive* concerning Brian's current health (this was the infamous "Is he brain damaged? Yes." article).

Obviously, back stuff and weight stuff isn't as inflammatory. But it can contribute to a perception of some level of questioning Brian's ability to tour, his control over his life, etc.

Mike Love has also specifically referenced Brian being out of shape, overweight, etc. in recent years. One might normally ascribe a bit more credibility to Mike's insights. Unfortunately, he doesn't seem to know Brian very well anymore. Probably hasn't seen him in person in five going on six years, and still incorrectly states the type of mental condition that Brian has been diagnosed with.

There’s also a pattern of certain posters agreeing with these statements and continuing this false dialogue.

And especially on the PS forum with very impressionable new members, its ridiculous that such posts are made in the face of overwhelming evidence against such banter. I mean, Mike is the guy who just 12 years ago said that Brian did nothing from 1967 onwards but collect royalty checks...eh Sheriff John Stone, Mike sure is a truth tellin guy, right!?

So in light of all that, this is a fandom where facts completely matter. I was swayed by people who claimed Mike was the reason for the collapse of Smile. I believed it, I was wrong in believing it, and some good fans helped me reach a logical conclusion about it. It was bullshit information to begin with, and the same goes for Brian’s health these days. When Mike is making false statements, when fans are agreeing with these false statements, when fans are making false statements of their own (even with this thread exlcluded) it does no good for the fandom.

Part of what has happened is that new fans, while absolutely welcomed and an awesome thing to see, often believe that because they can go on the internet, buy a few books, they can become a hardcore expert on the band very quickly.

I'm not saying everyone has to be a first-generation, "seen it all" sort of fan. But living with this band and its history for many years does give one a richer perspective.

I've had back-and-forths with fans who seem kind of incredulous about all of the ire pointed at Mike Love, and then they tell me "oh, I've been fan since 2012." And I think, yeah, okay, *that's* probably why. If you digest everything very quickly, if you buy all of the albums and listen to them all of the first time in the span of weeks or months, if you digest in mere months all of the contemptible things Mike has said over 50 years, then the impact is blunted quite a bit.

There's no perfect way to become a fan or digest everything. But I do think "new fans" are needed but also the most vulnerable to a fractured fan base with some folks who do have an agenda. And sometimes the agenda is fence-walking for the sake of fence-walking.

This also extends to the other stuff I've been talking about, the weird sort of circle-jerk of BB fans who think "Diamond Head" is better than anything the Beatles ever did. Among the most sad, injurious things to new BB fans I can think of, BB fans that aren't into other bands (the Beatles or any other), is a thread just comically trashing music that *most BB fans* would actually love if they actually took it in and got over the "my team was robbed of the pennant" mentality.

And of course, when BB scholars try to tell a new fan that a cryptic e-mail from Brian's wife is the reason C50 ended, that's laughably false and usually purposely misleadingly so.
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KDS
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« Reply #376 on: January 30, 2018, 10:46:01 AM »

KDS, when I make over-exaggerations about Mike there are those who rightfully call me out on it. When I make generalizations about whatever there are those who rightfully call me out on it - I mean, HeyJude (my partner in crime here who is simultaneously throwing shade at me about my opinion on the Beatles thread) just recently did this to me, and I welcome it. If I’m wrong about something, then I’m wrong.

Hell, you have swayed my opinion on occasion. But frankly, from my standpoint, I do not see how correcting an over-exaggeration is “ganging up” on you, especially an over-exaggeration that you refused to admit was an over-exaggeration until a page later. In a fandom rife with falsehoods, I think its imperative to keep things factual, no matter how small or inconsiquential the facts are.

In all fairness rab, and I'm sorry for calling you out there, but you're not the main culprit here. 
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guitarfool2002
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« Reply #377 on: January 30, 2018, 10:49:32 AM »

Well, quite frankly, that was all 2-3 years ago, isn't it time to move on a bit, and stop saying any criticism or flat out fact about Brian is part of an agenda?  

Ya know what’s funny? The only people who have mentioned an “agenda” in this thread are you and Uncle Walter. Guitarfool merely asked what your endgame was in agreeing with false statements. Given the history on this forum its not beyond the realm of logical possibility ithat someone would call that out and ask what your intentions are.

And stuff that happened 2-3 years ago that still affects this fandom to this day (and not just by passively mentioning it) isn’t something that should be forgotten...especially considering all the damage it did in the first place.

Endgame, agenda.   Apples, oranges.  

So, because of what happened 2-3 years ago, we need to sugarcoat everything as it pertains to Brian?   We should pretend he hasn't put on a little weight due to back issues?   We should pretend that his performances of Pet Sounds in 2017 were note perfect, and warrant additional shows in 2018?  


Wow, talk about putting words in someone’s mouth. You’re the one who agreed that Brian was “very overweight” not “put on a little weight” - and to be honest I think the man has actually lost weight. I don’t think Guitarfool ever said that Brian’s voice was note perfect - just that his voice and back issues didn’t warrant a residency in Vegas.

And because of what happened 2-3 years ago, yeah I agree that people who make blanket/false statements about Brian should be called out. Actually, even if the events of 2-3 years ago were nonexistent I would still question people’s intentions when they made false statements about Brian or any member of the band. Its like if I started claiming Mike looked very frail and that he needs to shack up in Reno for a residency, I would hope someone would call that out and ask why the hell I was saying that stuff.

You and GF seriously need to take a step back, and look at things without rose colored glasses.  

I fail to see how pointing out Brian's weight or pointing out that he has back issues equates to false statements.  Merely facts.  That's all that they are.  Sometimes facts aren't pleasant.  





I'll put aside all the other stuff for a moment and point out the "facts" which were posted in this thread regarding Brian's 2017 solo tour outperforming Mike's Beach Boys tour.

It's fine to suggest sometimes facts are a bitter pill to swallow, in the case of the tour numbers those figures are hard facts, as in the totals from 2017's tours. Weren't you the one, KDS, who was first to jump in and try to parse or explain away those numbers to try to lessen the impact of Brian (A) outselling Mike (B) as in A > B but with conditions and exceptions including ticket prices, gross versus net, overhead/costs, or whatever else gets thrown into the equation?

I mean, if facts are facts, and they can be unpleasant depending on your outlook, instead of trying to parse and make excuses for the facts looking as they do, why not just accept that Brian's tour in 2017 (despite the lethargy, back issues, weight issues, and the like) did better than Mike's? Or that fans spent more money to see Brian and his band play Pet Sounds in 2017 than they did to see Mike and Bruce?

I was simply pointing out that I thought it was a little funny for some non Mike fans to celebrate Brian's tour grossing more money when that doesn't tell the full story.    

And it seems to be that you and rab want to harp on Brian's back and weight issues far more than I do.   I just mentioned those two things.   You two are the ones who took it to heart.  

There's a lot more to fandom than blind adulation after all.  Which is why it's OK to criticize an album, or point out facts that may, or may not, contribute to Brian's decision to tour or not tour.  

Towards the end of 2017, it was pointed out that Mike sounded a bit ragged and Bruce had to miss some shows, and I pointed out that it's probably time for Mike to scale back on the amount of shows he does.   But, those words floated in the breeze.   Dare say something about Brian, then I just have an endgame.  

So the numbers don't tell the full story? As in, Brian's tour scored higher numbers than Mike's, even with the weight of the "Beach Boys" brand name behind Mike's tour?

I'd say if fans who have not seen Brian live were to read those mentions of Brian's weight, back issues, lethargy, and stage presence being less than enthusiastic, the opinion they'd get wouldn't be telling the "full story" either, in fact those fans reading might come away with a negative opinion of those shows if they're reading a fan's descriptions of what appear to be negatives against seeing the man play live. I mean, who wants to see an overweight, lethargic, uninterested artist with back problems who needs to be helped on and off stage perform, no less perform a set featuring an album that he's bored playing?

See how it cuts both ways?

But ultimately, more money was spent to see that tour than was spent to see the spry and energetic Mike and Bruce tour. So there's that.



Fine.  

I'm sorry you're so obsessed with what you think are jabs at Brian.  Keep thinking that way, GF.  It's doing wonders for the reputation of SSMB.  

In the meantime, why not take my advice, and try a candy bar, and maybe actually take some time to enjoy the music you claim to love so much that perceived criticisms of one of the creators causes you to go over the deep end.  

Deflect all you want, KDS. Try to turn the focus on me, and whatever other tactic you're using.  The reputation of this board has f***-all to do with any of this, but it's in line with some of your pals on the other forum who tried and failed to do the same thing. I thought that was over? Anyway...

Or you could try to reply to some of the actual points.

Such as, why is there still a group of posts in nearly every discussion of Brian's touring that bring up the same "facts" over and over again, "facts" which don't seem to have any bearing on the issue of Brian's touring since none of the negatives that have been repeated for years seem to have any effect on A: Brian's touring activity and B: Brian's ticket sales, since he did better than Mike's tour despite all these issues.

I guess it feels a lot like if a small group of posters were to bring up Glen Campbell's struggles as an alcoholic every time his name came up. As in, if someone went to see Glen's farewell tour he did with his daughter a few years ago, and posted what a great show it was, then they'd get responses like "you know he was a bad alcoholic" and "his Alzheimer's really showed and affected his performance..." etc. You'd have to wonder why "fans" would feel the need to bring up what literally everyone already knew about Glen when the bigger picture is and was Glen's fans wanting to see him play live, period.

And if the same groups of fans were the ones regularly reminding every reader about Glen's alcoholism and Alzheimer's whenever his live shows were being discussed, someone might just ask one or more of them "What's the deal?".

The first time you make a good point, I'll gladly reply.  

But, as always GF, you spin what I say to suit this weird paranoia that me, and the mean old Pet Sounds Forum posters, are out to get Brian.   Not that I'm just pointing out the concerns of ANY touring artist over 70 years of age.  

But, see it however you want.  

This back and forth is absolutely pointless as you, HJ, and rab are just going to use your Brianista logic to gang up on me three against one.  

So, by all means, enjoy.  Take Brian's gross from 2017 as some sort of victory against mean old Mike Love.    Take my suggestion that Brian take up a Vegas residency as an insult to the man.  

I'll be checking out the Beatles v Beach Boys threads, you know the ones that actually have to do with music.  


Have you ever suggested the notion of Mike and Bruce taking up a Vegas residency and quitting the road?

If not, do you think that is a valid suggestion for them as much as you think it would be better for Brian Wilson? And reasons why or why not would be helpful in understanding some of your comments.
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guitarfool2002
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« Reply #378 on: January 30, 2018, 10:51:58 AM »

And of course, when BB scholars try to tell a new fan that a cryptic e-mail from Brian's wife is the reason C50 ended, that's laughably false and usually purposely misleadingly so.

Mike Love himself tried to tell that to fans in the past few weeks! Those ersatz "scholars" turned out to be not much more than mouthpieces or parrots.
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« Reply #379 on: January 30, 2018, 10:57:49 AM »

HeyJude, excluding the Beatles discussions, I completely agree with your above post.

I was a very impressionable fan (hell I still am in some ways) and was definitely a Brianista when I first became a fan. Brian could never do any wrong, Mike sucked for tanking Smile, Mike sucked for every reason under the sun, I mean I can’t imagine how embarrassing my first posts here are. But since then I’ve seen a lot, heard a lot, read a lot - whether on the board, off the board, etc. And I still have a long way to go as a fan.

Us fans have our own unique perceptions of the band - they’re like fingerprints: no two perceptions are alike. So its easy to get into arguments when someone dares burst the bubble of our perception...we’ll even argue with people we mostly agree with. I am still learning about this band, and my opinion has evolved immensely in the last couple years, and it will continue to evolve as more interviews come out, more documentaries are made, more sets released, more books are written, more people speak up about this or that.

I think I somewhat understand why people on both ends of the spectrum think like they do. I think varying perceptions from both sides of the aisle can help create a realistic picture of the band and the history. But again, facts are absolutely necessary for our perceptions to be credible. If we don’t use facts, whether it’s Mike or some new fan on a forum, we’re doing the fandom and the history of the band a huge disservice.
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KDS
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« Reply #380 on: January 30, 2018, 10:57:58 AM »

Well, quite frankly, that was all 2-3 years ago, isn't it time to move on a bit, and stop saying any criticism or flat out fact about Brian is part of an agenda?  

Ya know what’s funny? The only people who have mentioned an “agenda” in this thread are you and Uncle Walter. Guitarfool merely asked what your endgame was in agreeing with false statements. Given the history on this forum its not beyond the realm of logical possibility ithat someone would call that out and ask what your intentions are.

And stuff that happened 2-3 years ago that still affects this fandom to this day (and not just by passively mentioning it) isn’t something that should be forgotten...especially considering all the damage it did in the first place.

Endgame, agenda.   Apples, oranges.  

So, because of what happened 2-3 years ago, we need to sugarcoat everything as it pertains to Brian?   We should pretend he hasn't put on a little weight due to back issues?   We should pretend that his performances of Pet Sounds in 2017 were note perfect, and warrant additional shows in 2018?  


Wow, talk about putting words in someone’s mouth. You’re the one who agreed that Brian was “very overweight” not “put on a little weight” - and to be honest I think the man has actually lost weight. I don’t think Guitarfool ever said that Brian’s voice was note perfect - just that his voice and back issues didn’t warrant a residency in Vegas.

And because of what happened 2-3 years ago, yeah I agree that people who make blanket/false statements about Brian should be called out. Actually, even if the events of 2-3 years ago were nonexistent I would still question people’s intentions when they made false statements about Brian or any member of the band. Its like if I started claiming Mike looked very frail and that he needs to shack up in Reno for a residency, I would hope someone would call that out and ask why the hell I was saying that stuff.

You and GF seriously need to take a step back, and look at things without rose colored glasses.  

I fail to see how pointing out Brian's weight or pointing out that he has back issues equates to false statements.  Merely facts.  That's all that they are.  Sometimes facts aren't pleasant.  





I'll put aside all the other stuff for a moment and point out the "facts" which were posted in this thread regarding Brian's 2017 solo tour outperforming Mike's Beach Boys tour.

It's fine to suggest sometimes facts are a bitter pill to swallow, in the case of the tour numbers those figures are hard facts, as in the totals from 2017's tours. Weren't you the one, KDS, who was first to jump in and try to parse or explain away those numbers to try to lessen the impact of Brian (A) outselling Mike (B) as in A > B but with conditions and exceptions including ticket prices, gross versus net, overhead/costs, or whatever else gets thrown into the equation?

I mean, if facts are facts, and they can be unpleasant depending on your outlook, instead of trying to parse and make excuses for the facts looking as they do, why not just accept that Brian's tour in 2017 (despite the lethargy, back issues, weight issues, and the like) did better than Mike's? Or that fans spent more money to see Brian and his band play Pet Sounds in 2017 than they did to see Mike and Bruce?

I was simply pointing out that I thought it was a little funny for some non Mike fans to celebrate Brian's tour grossing more money when that doesn't tell the full story.    

And it seems to be that you and rab want to harp on Brian's back and weight issues far more than I do.   I just mentioned those two things.   You two are the ones who took it to heart.  

There's a lot more to fandom than blind adulation after all.  Which is why it's OK to criticize an album, or point out facts that may, or may not, contribute to Brian's decision to tour or not tour.  

Towards the end of 2017, it was pointed out that Mike sounded a bit ragged and Bruce had to miss some shows, and I pointed out that it's probably time for Mike to scale back on the amount of shows he does.   But, those words floated in the breeze.   Dare say something about Brian, then I just have an endgame.  

So the numbers don't tell the full story? As in, Brian's tour scored higher numbers than Mike's, even with the weight of the "Beach Boys" brand name behind Mike's tour?

I'd say if fans who have not seen Brian live were to read those mentions of Brian's weight, back issues, lethargy, and stage presence being less than enthusiastic, the opinion they'd get wouldn't be telling the "full story" either, in fact those fans reading might come away with a negative opinion of those shows if they're reading a fan's descriptions of what appear to be negatives against seeing the man play live. I mean, who wants to see an overweight, lethargic, uninterested artist with back problems who needs to be helped on and off stage perform, no less perform a set featuring an album that he's bored playing?

See how it cuts both ways?

But ultimately, more money was spent to see that tour than was spent to see the spry and energetic Mike and Bruce tour. So there's that.



Fine.  

I'm sorry you're so obsessed with what you think are jabs at Brian.  Keep thinking that way, GF.  It's doing wonders for the reputation of SSMB.  

In the meantime, why not take my advice, and try a candy bar, and maybe actually take some time to enjoy the music you claim to love so much that perceived criticisms of one of the creators causes you to go over the deep end.  

Deflect all you want, KDS. Try to turn the focus on me, and whatever other tactic you're using.  The reputation of this board has f***-all to do with any of this, but it's in line with some of your pals on the other forum who tried and failed to do the same thing. I thought that was over? Anyway...

Or you could try to reply to some of the actual points.

Such as, why is there still a group of posts in nearly every discussion of Brian's touring that bring up the same "facts" over and over again, "facts" which don't seem to have any bearing on the issue of Brian's touring since none of the negatives that have been repeated for years seem to have any effect on A: Brian's touring activity and B: Brian's ticket sales, since he did better than Mike's tour despite all these issues.

I guess it feels a lot like if a small group of posters were to bring up Glen Campbell's struggles as an alcoholic every time his name came up. As in, if someone went to see Glen's farewell tour he did with his daughter a few years ago, and posted what a great show it was, then they'd get responses like "you know he was a bad alcoholic" and "his Alzheimer's really showed and affected his performance..." etc. You'd have to wonder why "fans" would feel the need to bring up what literally everyone already knew about Glen when the bigger picture is and was Glen's fans wanting to see him play live, period.

And if the same groups of fans were the ones regularly reminding every reader about Glen's alcoholism and Alzheimer's whenever his live shows were being discussed, someone might just ask one or more of them "What's the deal?".

The first time you make a good point, I'll gladly reply.  

But, as always GF, you spin what I say to suit this weird paranoia that me, and the mean old Pet Sounds Forum posters, are out to get Brian.   Not that I'm just pointing out the concerns of ANY touring artist over 70 years of age.  

But, see it however you want.  

This back and forth is absolutely pointless as you, HJ, and rab are just going to use your Brianista logic to gang up on me three against one.  

So, by all means, enjoy.  Take Brian's gross from 2017 as some sort of victory against mean old Mike Love.    Take my suggestion that Brian take up a Vegas residency as an insult to the man.  

I'll be checking out the Beatles v Beach Boys threads, you know the ones that actually have to do with music.  


Have you ever suggested the notion of Mike and Bruce taking up a Vegas residency and quitting the road?

If not, do you think that is a valid suggestion for them as much as you think it would be better for Brian Wilson? And reasons why or why not would be helpful in understanding some of your comments.

I think a Vegas residency could be good for Mike and Bruce as well.  

At their age, do they really need to be all over the place, doing 168 shows a year, sometimes two in a day??  I really don't think so.  

Like I said about Brian, these guys are not spring chickens, and they do more shows than most legacy artists around their age.  
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guitarfool2002
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« Reply #381 on: January 30, 2018, 11:01:27 AM »

but you're not the main culprit here. 

You're right, it was this:


I think that's also something worth exploring for Brian at some point.   He does seem to enjoy playing still (with the possible exception of Pet Sounds), and that would take all of the strain from touring, especially with his back problems.  

KDS, why do you and others keep bringing up health issues with Brian? "Oh, poor Brian, he needs to give it a rest with his bad back..." etc etc etc.

The guy has toured the world and played a full schedule of dates, and unless I missed something Brian did not cancel or miss a single show due to health issues, back or otherwise.

Bruce missed shows due to health issues, maybe you guys could start posting for Mike to cut back on the touring so Bruce can stay healthy? Or to give Mike's voice a rest? Or doesn't it work like that?

Seriously, though...if Brian was too ill to tour or simply didn't want to, he would not be doing it. I don't know how much more on that topic can be repeated to counter all of these "oh poor, dear Brian, it's such a strain for him!" type of histrionics.

If he was cancelling shows because of health ailments, it would be another story. He hasn't.

He looks lethargic and uninvolved onstage. As he walks offstage, usually a roadie or two will walk out and take his arm as he walks. His voice has degraded noticeably over the past 3 years. He's well into his 70s and very overweight. Mike and Bruce are, in comparison, very spry and in good shape. The concerns about Brian's health are not unfounded.

You beat me to it.  

Your concerns about Brian's health seem to be more of an issue with you than it does Brian, his fans and the ticket-buying public, and most who have seen him play live and plan to see him live sometime this year.

Your willingness to agree with these things and raise the issues as others do regularly across multiple forums, then try to avoid or deflect when questioned or asked for a clarification, fall into line with the actions and responses of quite a few former members and discussions. Coincidence?

But hey, keep reminding people of how Brian has a bad back, the lethargy, the boredom, the overweight issue, how the Pet Sounds set ran its course, and all the rest of those points.

Because all of that is talking "all about the music", right?
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« Reply #382 on: January 30, 2018, 11:03:06 AM »

Is it over yet? Did I win?
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« Reply #383 on: January 30, 2018, 11:06:08 AM »

Well, quite frankly, that was all 2-3 years ago, isn't it time to move on a bit, and stop saying any criticism or flat out fact about Brian is part of an agenda?  

Ya know what’s funny? The only people who have mentioned an “agenda” in this thread are you and Uncle Walter. Guitarfool merely asked what your endgame was in agreeing with false statements. Given the history on this forum its not beyond the realm of logical possibility ithat someone would call that out and ask what your intentions are.

And stuff that happened 2-3 years ago that still affects this fandom to this day (and not just by passively mentioning it) isn’t something that should be forgotten...especially considering all the damage it did in the first place.

Endgame, agenda.   Apples, oranges.  

So, because of what happened 2-3 years ago, we need to sugarcoat everything as it pertains to Brian?   We should pretend he hasn't put on a little weight due to back issues?   We should pretend that his performances of Pet Sounds in 2017 were note perfect, and warrant additional shows in 2018?  


Wow, talk about putting words in someone’s mouth. You’re the one who agreed that Brian was “very overweight” not “put on a little weight” - and to be honest I think the man has actually lost weight. I don’t think Guitarfool ever said that Brian’s voice was note perfect - just that his voice and back issues didn’t warrant a residency in Vegas.

And because of what happened 2-3 years ago, yeah I agree that people who make blanket/false statements about Brian should be called out. Actually, even if the events of 2-3 years ago were nonexistent I would still question people’s intentions when they made false statements about Brian or any member of the band. Its like if I started claiming Mike looked very frail and that he needs to shack up in Reno for a residency, I would hope someone would call that out and ask why the hell I was saying that stuff.

You and GF seriously need to take a step back, and look at things without rose colored glasses.  

I fail to see how pointing out Brian's weight or pointing out that he has back issues equates to false statements.  Merely facts.  That's all that they are.  Sometimes facts aren't pleasant.  





I'll put aside all the other stuff for a moment and point out the "facts" which were posted in this thread regarding Brian's 2017 solo tour outperforming Mike's Beach Boys tour.

It's fine to suggest sometimes facts are a bitter pill to swallow, in the case of the tour numbers those figures are hard facts, as in the totals from 2017's tours. Weren't you the one, KDS, who was first to jump in and try to parse or explain away those numbers to try to lessen the impact of Brian (A) outselling Mike (B) as in A > B but with conditions and exceptions including ticket prices, gross versus net, overhead/costs, or whatever else gets thrown into the equation?

I mean, if facts are facts, and they can be unpleasant depending on your outlook, instead of trying to parse and make excuses for the facts looking as they do, why not just accept that Brian's tour in 2017 (despite the lethargy, back issues, weight issues, and the like) did better than Mike's? Or that fans spent more money to see Brian and his band play Pet Sounds in 2017 than they did to see Mike and Bruce?

I was simply pointing out that I thought it was a little funny for some non Mike fans to celebrate Brian's tour grossing more money when that doesn't tell the full story.    

And it seems to be that you and rab want to harp on Brian's back and weight issues far more than I do.   I just mentioned those two things.   You two are the ones who took it to heart.  

There's a lot more to fandom than blind adulation after all.  Which is why it's OK to criticize an album, or point out facts that may, or may not, contribute to Brian's decision to tour or not tour.  

Towards the end of 2017, it was pointed out that Mike sounded a bit ragged and Bruce had to miss some shows, and I pointed out that it's probably time for Mike to scale back on the amount of shows he does.   But, those words floated in the breeze.   Dare say something about Brian, then I just have an endgame.  

So the numbers don't tell the full story? As in, Brian's tour scored higher numbers than Mike's, even with the weight of the "Beach Boys" brand name behind Mike's tour?

I'd say if fans who have not seen Brian live were to read those mentions of Brian's weight, back issues, lethargy, and stage presence being less than enthusiastic, the opinion they'd get wouldn't be telling the "full story" either, in fact those fans reading might come away with a negative opinion of those shows if they're reading a fan's descriptions of what appear to be negatives against seeing the man play live. I mean, who wants to see an overweight, lethargic, uninterested artist with back problems who needs to be helped on and off stage perform, no less perform a set featuring an album that he's bored playing?

See how it cuts both ways?

But ultimately, more money was spent to see that tour than was spent to see the spry and energetic Mike and Bruce tour. So there's that.



Fine.  

I'm sorry you're so obsessed with what you think are jabs at Brian.  Keep thinking that way, GF.  It's doing wonders for the reputation of SSMB.  

In the meantime, why not take my advice, and try a candy bar, and maybe actually take some time to enjoy the music you claim to love so much that perceived criticisms of one of the creators causes you to go over the deep end.  

Deflect all you want, KDS. Try to turn the focus on me, and whatever other tactic you're using.  The reputation of this board has f***-all to do with any of this, but it's in line with some of your pals on the other forum who tried and failed to do the same thing. I thought that was over? Anyway...

Or you could try to reply to some of the actual points.

Such as, why is there still a group of posts in nearly every discussion of Brian's touring that bring up the same "facts" over and over again, "facts" which don't seem to have any bearing on the issue of Brian's touring since none of the negatives that have been repeated for years seem to have any effect on A: Brian's touring activity and B: Brian's ticket sales, since he did better than Mike's tour despite all these issues.

I guess it feels a lot like if a small group of posters were to bring up Glen Campbell's struggles as an alcoholic every time his name came up. As in, if someone went to see Glen's farewell tour he did with his daughter a few years ago, and posted what a great show it was, then they'd get responses like "you know he was a bad alcoholic" and "his Alzheimer's really showed and affected his performance..." etc. You'd have to wonder why "fans" would feel the need to bring up what literally everyone already knew about Glen when the bigger picture is and was Glen's fans wanting to see him play live, period.

And if the same groups of fans were the ones regularly reminding every reader about Glen's alcoholism and Alzheimer's whenever his live shows were being discussed, someone might just ask one or more of them "What's the deal?".

The first time you make a good point, I'll gladly reply.  

But, as always GF, you spin what I say to suit this weird paranoia that me, and the mean old Pet Sounds Forum posters, are out to get Brian.   Not that I'm just pointing out the concerns of ANY touring artist over 70 years of age.  

But, see it however you want.  

This back and forth is absolutely pointless as you, HJ, and rab are just going to use your Brianista logic to gang up on me three against one.  

So, by all means, enjoy.  Take Brian's gross from 2017 as some sort of victory against mean old Mike Love.    Take my suggestion that Brian take up a Vegas residency as an insult to the man.  

I'll be checking out the Beatles v Beach Boys threads, you know the ones that actually have to do with music.  


Have you ever suggested the notion of Mike and Bruce taking up a Vegas residency and quitting the road?

If not, do you think that is a valid suggestion for them as much as you think it would be better for Brian Wilson? And reasons why or why not would be helpful in understanding some of your comments.

I think a Vegas residency could be good for Mike and Bruce as well.  

At their age, do they really need to be all over the place, doing 168 shows a year, sometimes two in a day??  I really don't think so.  

Like I said about Brian, these guys are not spring chickens, and they do more shows than most legacy artists around their age.  


I don't think so either. But if I suggested they hang up the chinos and Hawaiian shirts for a bit and stop the heavy touring, I'd probably be accused of bashing Mike.
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« Reply #384 on: January 30, 2018, 11:07:05 AM »

but you're not the main culprit here. 

You're right, it was this:


I think that's also something worth exploring for Brian at some point.   He does seem to enjoy playing still (with the possible exception of Pet Sounds), and that would take all of the strain from touring, especially with his back problems.  

KDS, why do you and others keep bringing up health issues with Brian? "Oh, poor Brian, he needs to give it a rest with his bad back..." etc etc etc.

The guy has toured the world and played a full schedule of dates, and unless I missed something Brian did not cancel or miss a single show due to health issues, back or otherwise.

Bruce missed shows due to health issues, maybe you guys could start posting for Mike to cut back on the touring so Bruce can stay healthy? Or to give Mike's voice a rest? Or doesn't it work like that?

Seriously, though...if Brian was too ill to tour or simply didn't want to, he would not be doing it. I don't know how much more on that topic can be repeated to counter all of these "oh poor, dear Brian, it's such a strain for him!" type of histrionics.

If he was cancelling shows because of health ailments, it would be another story. He hasn't.

He looks lethargic and uninvolved onstage. As he walks offstage, usually a roadie or two will walk out and take his arm as he walks. His voice has degraded noticeably over the past 3 years. He's well into his 70s and very overweight. Mike and Bruce are, in comparison, very spry and in good shape. The concerns about Brian's health are not unfounded.

You beat me to it.  

Your concerns about Brian's health seem to be more of an issue with you than it does Brian, his fans and the ticket-buying public, and most who have seen him play live and plan to see him live sometime this year.

Your willingness to agree with these things and raise the issues as others do regularly across multiple forums, then try to avoid or deflect when questioned or asked for a clarification, fall into line with the actions and responses of quite a few former members and discussions. Coincidence?

But hey, keep reminding people of how Brian has a bad back, the lethargy, the boredom, the overweight issue, how the Pet Sounds set ran its course, and all the rest of those points.

Because all of that is talking "all about the music", right?

And, other that the exaggeration about Brian's weight, please tell me what part of that assessment is untrue?  

And I don't have to remind people of those issues.   They're all well documented facts.  

But, yet, somehow I'm out to get poor victim Brian.  

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« Reply #385 on: January 30, 2018, 11:09:32 AM »

Well, quite frankly, that was all 2-3 years ago, isn't it time to move on a bit, and stop saying any criticism or flat out fact about Brian is part of an agenda?  

Ya know what’s funny? The only people who have mentioned an “agenda” in this thread are you and Uncle Walter. Guitarfool merely asked what your endgame was in agreeing with false statements. Given the history on this forum its not beyond the realm of logical possibility ithat someone would call that out and ask what your intentions are.

And stuff that happened 2-3 years ago that still affects this fandom to this day (and not just by passively mentioning it) isn’t something that should be forgotten...especially considering all the damage it did in the first place.

Endgame, agenda.   Apples, oranges.  

So, because of what happened 2-3 years ago, we need to sugarcoat everything as it pertains to Brian?   We should pretend he hasn't put on a little weight due to back issues?   We should pretend that his performances of Pet Sounds in 2017 were note perfect, and warrant additional shows in 2018?  


Wow, talk about putting words in someone’s mouth. You’re the one who agreed that Brian was “very overweight” not “put on a little weight” - and to be honest I think the man has actually lost weight. I don’t think Guitarfool ever said that Brian’s voice was note perfect - just that his voice and back issues didn’t warrant a residency in Vegas.

And because of what happened 2-3 years ago, yeah I agree that people who make blanket/false statements about Brian should be called out. Actually, even if the events of 2-3 years ago were nonexistent I would still question people’s intentions when they made false statements about Brian or any member of the band. Its like if I started claiming Mike looked very frail and that he needs to shack up in Reno for a residency, I would hope someone would call that out and ask why the hell I was saying that stuff.

You and GF seriously need to take a step back, and look at things without rose colored glasses.  

I fail to see how pointing out Brian's weight or pointing out that he has back issues equates to false statements.  Merely facts.  That's all that they are.  Sometimes facts aren't pleasant.  





I'll put aside all the other stuff for a moment and point out the "facts" which were posted in this thread regarding Brian's 2017 solo tour outperforming Mike's Beach Boys tour.

It's fine to suggest sometimes facts are a bitter pill to swallow, in the case of the tour numbers those figures are hard facts, as in the totals from 2017's tours. Weren't you the one, KDS, who was first to jump in and try to parse or explain away those numbers to try to lessen the impact of Brian (A) outselling Mike (B) as in A > B but with conditions and exceptions including ticket prices, gross versus net, overhead/costs, or whatever else gets thrown into the equation?

I mean, if facts are facts, and they can be unpleasant depending on your outlook, instead of trying to parse and make excuses for the facts looking as they do, why not just accept that Brian's tour in 2017 (despite the lethargy, back issues, weight issues, and the like) did better than Mike's? Or that fans spent more money to see Brian and his band play Pet Sounds in 2017 than they did to see Mike and Bruce?

I was simply pointing out that I thought it was a little funny for some non Mike fans to celebrate Brian's tour grossing more money when that doesn't tell the full story.    

And it seems to be that you and rab want to harp on Brian's back and weight issues far more than I do.   I just mentioned those two things.   You two are the ones who took it to heart.  

There's a lot more to fandom than blind adulation after all.  Which is why it's OK to criticize an album, or point out facts that may, or may not, contribute to Brian's decision to tour or not tour.  

Towards the end of 2017, it was pointed out that Mike sounded a bit ragged and Bruce had to miss some shows, and I pointed out that it's probably time for Mike to scale back on the amount of shows he does.   But, those words floated in the breeze.   Dare say something about Brian, then I just have an endgame.  

So the numbers don't tell the full story? As in, Brian's tour scored higher numbers than Mike's, even with the weight of the "Beach Boys" brand name behind Mike's tour?

I'd say if fans who have not seen Brian live were to read those mentions of Brian's weight, back issues, lethargy, and stage presence being less than enthusiastic, the opinion they'd get wouldn't be telling the "full story" either, in fact those fans reading might come away with a negative opinion of those shows if they're reading a fan's descriptions of what appear to be negatives against seeing the man play live. I mean, who wants to see an overweight, lethargic, uninterested artist with back problems who needs to be helped on and off stage perform, no less perform a set featuring an album that he's bored playing?

See how it cuts both ways?

But ultimately, more money was spent to see that tour than was spent to see the spry and energetic Mike and Bruce tour. So there's that.



Fine.  

I'm sorry you're so obsessed with what you think are jabs at Brian.  Keep thinking that way, GF.  It's doing wonders for the reputation of SSMB.  

In the meantime, why not take my advice, and try a candy bar, and maybe actually take some time to enjoy the music you claim to love so much that perceived criticisms of one of the creators causes you to go over the deep end.  

Deflect all you want, KDS. Try to turn the focus on me, and whatever other tactic you're using.  The reputation of this board has f***-all to do with any of this, but it's in line with some of your pals on the other forum who tried and failed to do the same thing. I thought that was over? Anyway...

Or you could try to reply to some of the actual points.

Such as, why is there still a group of posts in nearly every discussion of Brian's touring that bring up the same "facts" over and over again, "facts" which don't seem to have any bearing on the issue of Brian's touring since none of the negatives that have been repeated for years seem to have any effect on A: Brian's touring activity and B: Brian's ticket sales, since he did better than Mike's tour despite all these issues.

I guess it feels a lot like if a small group of posters were to bring up Glen Campbell's struggles as an alcoholic every time his name came up. As in, if someone went to see Glen's farewell tour he did with his daughter a few years ago, and posted what a great show it was, then they'd get responses like "you know he was a bad alcoholic" and "his Alzheimer's really showed and affected his performance..." etc. You'd have to wonder why "fans" would feel the need to bring up what literally everyone already knew about Glen when the bigger picture is and was Glen's fans wanting to see him play live, period.

And if the same groups of fans were the ones regularly reminding every reader about Glen's alcoholism and Alzheimer's whenever his live shows were being discussed, someone might just ask one or more of them "What's the deal?".

The first time you make a good point, I'll gladly reply.  

But, as always GF, you spin what I say to suit this weird paranoia that me, and the mean old Pet Sounds Forum posters, are out to get Brian.   Not that I'm just pointing out the concerns of ANY touring artist over 70 years of age.  

But, see it however you want.  

This back and forth is absolutely pointless as you, HJ, and rab are just going to use your Brianista logic to gang up on me three against one.  

So, by all means, enjoy.  Take Brian's gross from 2017 as some sort of victory against mean old Mike Love.    Take my suggestion that Brian take up a Vegas residency as an insult to the man.  

I'll be checking out the Beatles v Beach Boys threads, you know the ones that actually have to do with music.  


Have you ever suggested the notion of Mike and Bruce taking up a Vegas residency and quitting the road?

If not, do you think that is a valid suggestion for them as much as you think it would be better for Brian Wilson? And reasons why or why not would be helpful in understanding some of your comments.

I think a Vegas residency could be good for Mike and Bruce as well.  

At their age, do they really need to be all over the place, doing 168 shows a year, sometimes two in a day??  I really don't think so.  

Like I said about Brian, these guys are not spring chickens, and they do more shows than most legacy artists around their age.  


I don't think so either. But if I suggested they hang up the chinos and Hawaiian shirts for a bit and stop the heavy touring, I'd probably be accused of bashing Mike.

I only accuse you of Mike bashing when you actually do it.  Suggesting a chance of wardrobe and less shows isn't bashing.  Much like my suggestion of a Vegas residency and the long overdue retirement of Pet Sound Live is not Brian bashing. 
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« Reply #386 on: January 30, 2018, 11:10:03 AM »

HeyJude, excluding the Beatles discussions, I completely agree with your above post.

I was a very impressionable fan (hell I still am in some ways) and was definitely a Brianista when I first became a fan. Brian could never do any wrong, Mike sucked for tanking Smile, Mike sucked for every reason under the sun, I mean I can’t imagine how embarrassing my first posts here are. But since then I’ve seen a lot, heard a lot, read a lot - whether on the board, off the board, etc. And I still have a long way to go as a fan.

Us fans have our own unique perceptions of the band - they’re like fingerprints: no two perceptions are alike. So its easy to get into arguments when someone dares burst the bubble of our perception...we’ll even argue with people we mostly agree with. I am still learning about this band, and my opinion has evolved immensely in the last couple years, and it will continue to evolve as more interviews come out, more documentaries are made, more sets released, more books are written, more people speak up about this or that.

I think I somewhat understand why people on both ends of the spectrum think like they do. I think varying perceptions from both sides of the aisle can help create a realistic picture of the band and the history. But again, facts are absolutely necessary for our perceptions to be credible. If we don’t use facts, whether it’s Mike or some new fan on a forum, we’re doing the fandom and the history of the band a huge disservice.

I think sometimes some of the stuff I read can be quite damaging. For instance, on another board, I actually saw someone post the following (I'm paraphrasing a bit):

Why would Brian and Melinda schedule an after-tour dinner for a time when Mike and Bruce were unable to attend due to a charity event?

Unless this was posted with the most subtle, dry sense of irony ever, I think this person truly has this twisted logic. That Mike and Bruce not showing up at the tour-ending dinner was somehow Brian's fault for not scheduling it around Mike's schedule. This obviously ignores the obvious, that numerous members of Mike's band were at the dinner, pretty much disproving the idea that Mike's band needed to leave early to do a gig. And even if someone had some other personal issue to attend to, what are the chances that Mike *and* Bruce both had a pressing scheduling issue that *nobody* else including members of Mike's band had?

These are the same people that still post that Al's 1998 exit was just a case of Al being a dick, that John Stamos and "Full House" did not one ounce of harm to the BB's image, the same fans that in some cases seemed to *celebrate* Mike quitting the reunion in 2012.

Someone needs to at least try to make sure new fans don't gobble that garbage up.

And yeah, I think my previous posts in the "Beatles vs. Beach Boys" threads were more a case of just trying to put something in there saying "Hey everyone in the future who might read this! Not all Beach Boys fans blindly think seemingly nearly everything they did is better than any other band!"

I have by no means the widest musical tastes imaginable. I still feel like I don't try enough stuff outside of my preference/wheelhouse. But geez man, some of the tunnel vision from BB fans (and other fanbases) is unsettling. I recall someone liking Brian's cover of "Wanderlust" a few years ago, and I mentioned that it would be worth checking out McCartney's original. No dice. They didn't care. They didn't care about the song. They just cared that Brian was singing it. *That's* the type of fandom I try to snap people out of if I can, the fandom that, in the extreme, owns and listens to "Problem Child" and "Summer of Love" but hasn't even listened to "Sgt. Pepper" all the way through.
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« Reply #387 on: January 30, 2018, 11:12:23 AM »

but you're not the main culprit here. 

You're right, it was this:


I think that's also something worth exploring for Brian at some point.   He does seem to enjoy playing still (with the possible exception of Pet Sounds), and that would take all of the strain from touring, especially with his back problems.  

KDS, why do you and others keep bringing up health issues with Brian? "Oh, poor Brian, he needs to give it a rest with his bad back..." etc etc etc.

The guy has toured the world and played a full schedule of dates, and unless I missed something Brian did not cancel or miss a single show due to health issues, back or otherwise.

Bruce missed shows due to health issues, maybe you guys could start posting for Mike to cut back on the touring so Bruce can stay healthy? Or to give Mike's voice a rest? Or doesn't it work like that?

Seriously, though...if Brian was too ill to tour or simply didn't want to, he would not be doing it. I don't know how much more on that topic can be repeated to counter all of these "oh poor, dear Brian, it's such a strain for him!" type of histrionics.

If he was cancelling shows because of health ailments, it would be another story. He hasn't.

He looks lethargic and uninvolved onstage. As he walks offstage, usually a roadie or two will walk out and take his arm as he walks. His voice has degraded noticeably over the past 3 years. He's well into his 70s and very overweight. Mike and Bruce are, in comparison, very spry and in good shape. The concerns about Brian's health are not unfounded.

You beat me to it.  

Your concerns about Brian's health seem to be more of an issue with you than it does Brian, his fans and the ticket-buying public, and most who have seen him play live and plan to see him live sometime this year.

Your willingness to agree with these things and raise the issues as others do regularly across multiple forums, then try to avoid or deflect when questioned or asked for a clarification, fall into line with the actions and responses of quite a few former members and discussions. Coincidence?

But hey, keep reminding people of how Brian has a bad back, the lethargy, the boredom, the overweight issue, how the Pet Sounds set ran its course, and all the rest of those points.

Because all of that is talking "all about the music", right?

And, other that the exaggeration about Brian's weight, please tell me what part of that assessment is untrue?  

And I don't have to remind people of those issues.   They're all well documented facts.  

But, yet, somehow I'm out to get poor victim Brian.  



I'm wondering why there is the need to continue bringing up these "well documented facts" among certain groups of fans whenever Brian's touring is discussed. Can you answer that, KDS?

If you're giving the "it's all about the music" line in a reply, maybe it would help if you explained how reminding people of Brian Wilson's health issues in discussions about a tour has anything to do with the music, or even the enjoyment ticket-buyers might get from seeing Brian perform live.
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« Reply #388 on: January 30, 2018, 11:19:44 AM »

It's still really problematic that one of the mods of this board is an aggressive partisan.  Mod or get off the pot, I say.

Back closer to the original topic.  It is a weird debate because they are two different models, and both are relatively successful at their different model.  Why is one a loser and one a winner?

Brian is able to charge more for his tickets because of reasons such as playing fewer dates, bringing a somewhat higher quality (artistically/venue-wise) product, and, the thing that nobody has mentioned yet, one important reason why Brian is able to charge more money is THE BIOPIC.  
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« Reply #389 on: January 30, 2018, 11:24:05 AM »

but you're not the main culprit here.  

You're right, it was this:


I think that's also something worth exploring for Brian at some point.   He does seem to enjoy playing still (with the possible exception of Pet Sounds), and that would take all of the strain from touring, especially with his back problems.  

KDS, why do you and others keep bringing up health issues with Brian? "Oh, poor Brian, he needs to give it a rest with his bad back..." etc etc etc.

The guy has toured the world and played a full schedule of dates, and unless I missed something Brian did not cancel or miss a single show due to health issues, back or otherwise.

Bruce missed shows due to health issues, maybe you guys could start posting for Mike to cut back on the touring so Bruce can stay healthy? Or to give Mike's voice a rest? Or doesn't it work like that?

Seriously, though...if Brian was too ill to tour or simply didn't want to, he would not be doing it. I don't know how much more on that topic can be repeated to counter all of these "oh poor, dear Brian, it's such a strain for him!" type of histrionics.

If he was cancelling shows because of health ailments, it would be another story. He hasn't.

He looks lethargic and uninvolved onstage. As he walks offstage, usually a roadie or two will walk out and take his arm as he walks. His voice has degraded noticeably over the past 3 years. He's well into his 70s and very overweight. Mike and Bruce are, in comparison, very spry and in good shape. The concerns about Brian's health are not unfounded.

You beat me to it.  

Your concerns about Brian's health seem to be more of an issue with you than it does Brian, his fans and the ticket-buying public, and most who have seen him play live and plan to see him live sometime this year.

Your willingness to agree with these things and raise the issues as others do regularly across multiple forums, then try to avoid or deflect when questioned or asked for a clarification, fall into line with the actions and responses of quite a few former members and discussions. Coincidence?

But hey, keep reminding people of how Brian has a bad back, the lethargy, the boredom, the overweight issue, how the Pet Sounds set ran its course, and all the rest of those points.

Because all of that is talking "all about the music", right?

And, other that the exaggeration about Brian's weight, please tell me what part of that assessment is untrue?  

And I don't have to remind people of those issues.   They're all well documented facts.  

But, yet, somehow I'm out to get poor victim Brian.  

I think much of the assessment you agreed with is problematic, incomplete, and in some cases untrue.

Lethargic and uninvolved on stage? During PS, sometimes yes (I'd say "bored" is a bit different than "lethargic", but close enough). During the first set? Total opposite at many shows. Again, this is a CLEAR indication to me that Brian doesn't have a health-related reason for any apparent lethargy or boredom. He's just tired of singing the PS songs. A problem, yes, but not in the way it's being framed. It's the same problem the BBs had going through the motions in the 90s, perhaps more magnified because Brian's older I suppose.

His voice being more degraded over the last three years? Not really, in my opinion. Brian's singing has always been hit and miss, and I don't think his voice sounds any different across the board in 2017 versus 2012 or earlier. It depends on the day he's having, the material he's singing, and so on. Brian sounded pretty ragged during C50 on "This Whole World" or "Good Timin'." He did some great lead vocals in 2017 during the first set of many shows.

Again, I think misgivings about Brian touring have been there since 1999, and they are largely the same now. I think some fans just pick an arbitrary point where the show is no longer doing "it" for *them*, and then all of a sudden questions start surfacing about "Brian's not looking too good", and in extremes, calls for him to retire.

Again, if you've been a fan and have read these boards and fan groups since the 90s, especially since Brian started touring in 1999, there have ALWAYS been calls for Brian to quit. *EVERY* tour.

In 1999, he wasn't playing his keyboard. Therefore, he shouldn't be touring.

In 2001, he was doing shorter shows because it was the Paul Simon tour. Therefore, Brian can't pull off a full show anymore and he shouldn't be out there.

All the way back in 2002/2003, there were already calls that he was "beating a dead horse" by doing more PS tours.

In 2005, he didn't a second year of Smile touring. No, he's doing too much. Or, "he's running out of ideas." Fans occasionally can so quickly become jaded. Brian Wilson finishes literally the most legendary unreleased album of all time, and 12 months later it's "Meh, not *that* again!"

In 2006, he only did a smattering of shows, and they were "Greatest Hits" shows. Guess what? "Now Brian's doing more surf and car songs! Time to retire!"

Brian tours PS with Al in 2006/2007. People complained. Not again! Even though it was something like 10 shows.

Brian does "hits" tour in Europe in 2007. Al drops out due to politics (not Al's fault really, though a story for another time), Darian and Bennett miss the tour and Billy Hinsche and Gary Griffin are fill-ins. People say the shows are boring, Brian doesn't care, and Hinsche and Griffin according to one noted "expert/historian", aren't cutting it.

You get the idea. Remember C50? I remember numerous defenders of Mike claiming there was NO WAY Brian could hold up to doing 73 shows for another year, let alone MORE. Yet, he did around 100 shows in 2016 as I recall, and a somewhat similar amount in 2017.

There are weird elements to Brian's shows. You do have to "get it." He has bad days, and this sometimes is reflected on stage. Out of the 12 or 15 or however many times I've seen it, I've seen every type of show. The "Hrmmm, should Brian be touring?" question is not wholly invalid. But the question is the same now as it was in 1999 more or less.
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« Reply #390 on: January 30, 2018, 11:31:38 AM »

It's still really problematic that one of the mods of this board is an aggressive partisan.  Mod or get off the pot, I say.

Back closer to the original topic.  It is a weird debate because they are two different models, and both are relatively successful at their different model.  Why is one a loser and one a winner?

Brian is able to charge more for his tickets because of reasons such as playing fewer dates, bringing a somewhat higher quality (artistically/venue-wise) product, and, the thing that nobody has mentioned yet, one important reason why Brian is able to charge more money is THE BIOPIC.  

Looking at Brian's tour revenue versus Mike isn't a case of needing to debate it or say one guy "beat" the other. But it's ignoring the band's history (and denying simple fan/scholar curiosity) to not see it as an interesting statistic.

The tours run off of different "operations" models, but they both are in the most general ways more similar than different, in the last couple years anyway. It's a band criss-crossing the globe performing concerts in order to make money, pulled from the same core catalog of music (with some areas where they diverge of course).

This is all even more interesting in light of C50. It's more interesting in light of Al being full-time on the tour now. Brian for the first time has, in the last several years, and likely in reaction to Mike quitting the band in 2012, presented something truly closer to his "version" of a "Beach Boys" show. No, they are not exactly the same. They have slightly different setlist prompts (Mike does anything released by the BBs, Brian sticks mainly to stuff he's has written or co-written), but they're similar operations generally speaking.

That there have been intimations in interviews as well as passing references in lawsuit filings to Brian and Al (together and separately) being some sort of competition to Mike's BB tour only makes these statistics more interesting.

By most objective measures, "on paper" Mike should be easily pulling in more money touring than Brian, even when they're performing the same number of shows. I think Brian's name just trumps the BB in some circles in a way Mike would probably not admit, and also probably more prominently this all points to Mike *over-extending* the brand, stretching it WAY too thin. But it probably doesn't matter anymore. The time to take longer breaks between tours and build up demand was five, ten, 20, 30 years ago. Mike skipping 2018 and coming back in 2019 probably wouldn't make a HUGE difference at this point, this late in the game.
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« Reply #391 on: January 30, 2018, 11:36:27 AM »

but you're not the main culprit here. 

You're right, it was this:


I think that's also something worth exploring for Brian at some point.   He does seem to enjoy playing still (with the possible exception of Pet Sounds), and that would take all of the strain from touring, especially with his back problems.  

KDS, why do you and others keep bringing up health issues with Brian? "Oh, poor Brian, he needs to give it a rest with his bad back..." etc etc etc.

The guy has toured the world and played a full schedule of dates, and unless I missed something Brian did not cancel or miss a single show due to health issues, back or otherwise.

Bruce missed shows due to health issues, maybe you guys could start posting for Mike to cut back on the touring so Bruce can stay healthy? Or to give Mike's voice a rest? Or doesn't it work like that?

Seriously, though...if Brian was too ill to tour or simply didn't want to, he would not be doing it. I don't know how much more on that topic can be repeated to counter all of these "oh poor, dear Brian, it's such a strain for him!" type of histrionics.

If he was cancelling shows because of health ailments, it would be another story. He hasn't.

He looks lethargic and uninvolved onstage. As he walks offstage, usually a roadie or two will walk out and take his arm as he walks. His voice has degraded noticeably over the past 3 years. He's well into his 70s and very overweight. Mike and Bruce are, in comparison, very spry and in good shape. The concerns about Brian's health are not unfounded.

You beat me to it.  

Your concerns about Brian's health seem to be more of an issue with you than it does Brian, his fans and the ticket-buying public, and most who have seen him play live and plan to see him live sometime this year.

Your willingness to agree with these things and raise the issues as others do regularly across multiple forums, then try to avoid or deflect when questioned or asked for a clarification, fall into line with the actions and responses of quite a few former members and discussions. Coincidence?

But hey, keep reminding people of how Brian has a bad back, the lethargy, the boredom, the overweight issue, how the Pet Sounds set ran its course, and all the rest of those points.

Because all of that is talking "all about the music", right?

And, other that the exaggeration about Brian's weight, please tell me what part of that assessment is untrue?  

And I don't have to remind people of those issues.   They're all well documented facts.  

But, yet, somehow I'm out to get poor victim Brian.  



I'm wondering why there is the need to continue bringing up these "well documented facts" among certain groups of fans whenever Brian's touring is discussed. Can you answer that, KDS?

If you're giving the "it's all about the music" line in a reply, maybe it would help if you explained how reminding people of Brian Wilson's health issues in discussions about a tour has anything to do with the music, or even the enjoyment ticket-buyers might get from seeing Brian perform live.

I've answered your questions enough today, GF, but I know no answer from me will satisfy you, so I'm going to be the bigger fan and walk away from this nonsense rather than hijack this thread any longer than it has to be. 

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« Reply #392 on: January 30, 2018, 11:37:26 AM »

HeyJude, excluding the Beatles discussions, I completely agree with your above post.

I was a very impressionable fan (hell I still am in some ways) and was definitely a Brianista when I first became a fan. Brian could never do any wrong, Mike sucked for tanking Smile, Mike sucked for every reason under the sun, I mean I can’t imagine how embarrassing my first posts here are. But since then I’ve seen a lot, heard a lot, read a lot - whether on the board, off the board, etc. And I still have a long way to go as a fan.

Us fans have our own unique perceptions of the band - they’re like fingerprints: no two perceptions are alike. So its easy to get into arguments when someone dares burst the bubble of our perception...we’ll even argue with people we mostly agree with. I am still learning about this band, and my opinion has evolved immensely in the last couple years, and it will continue to evolve as more interviews come out, more documentaries are made, more sets released, more books are written, more people speak up about this or that.

I think I somewhat understand why people on both ends of the spectrum think like they do. I think varying perceptions from both sides of the aisle can help create a realistic picture of the band and the history. But again, facts are absolutely necessary for our perceptions to be credible. If we don’t use facts, whether it’s Mike or some new fan on a forum, we’re doing the fandom and the history of the band a huge disservice.

I think sometimes some of the stuff I read can be quite damaging. For instance, on another board, I actually saw someone post the following (I'm paraphrasing a bit):

Why would Brian and Melinda schedule an after-tour dinner for a time when Mike and Bruce were unable to attend due to a charity event?

Unless this was posted with the most subtle, dry sense of irony ever, I think this person truly has this twisted logic. That Mike and Bruce not showing up at the tour-ending dinner was somehow Brian's fault for not scheduling it around Mike's schedule. This obviously ignores the obvious, that numerous members of Mike's band were at the dinner, pretty much disproving the idea that Mike's band needed to leave early to do a gig. And even if someone had some other personal issue to attend to, what are the chances that Mike *and* Bruce both had a pressing scheduling issue that *nobody* else including members of Mike's band had?

These are the same people that still post that Al's 1998 exit was just a case of Al being a dick, that John Stamos and "Full House" did not on ounce of harm to the BB's image, the same fans that in some cases seemed to *celebrate* Mike quitting the reunion in 2012.

Someone needs to at least try to make sure new fans don't gobble that garbage up.

And yeah, I think my previous posts in the "Beatles vs. Beach Boys" threads were more a case of just trying to put something in there saying "Hey everyone in the future who might read this! Not all Beach Boys fans blindly think seemingly nearly everything they did is better than any other band!"

I have by no means the widest musical tastes imaginable. I still feel like I don't try enough stuff outside of my preference/wheelhouse. But geez man, some of the tunnel vision from BB fans (and other fanbases) is unsettling. I recall someone liking Brian's cover of "Wanderlust" a few years ago, and I mentioned that it would be worth checking out McCartney's original. No dice. They didn't care. They didn't care about the song. They just cared that Brian was singing it. *That's* the type of fandom I try to snap people out of if I can, the fandom that, in the extreme, owns and listens to "Problem Child" and "Summer of Love" but hasn't even listened to "Sgt. Pepper" all the way through.

Yeah, I think where my irritation about the “facts” stems from is that I was once an impressionable fan swayed by false information. And I’ve seen it done since, and probably will continue to see it. The PS Forum is a growing forum and to see false information being thrown around is insulting to the fandom. But it’s from the same group of usuals who also think its cool to openly mock Brian and Melinda Wilson for years to prove a point...yeah, thats who I want to get my information from. I’m totally down to see a new forum spring up, but I hope the new fans there take some of those posts made there with a grain of salt. Best thing I learned from this fandom: do your own research - dig and ask questions on or off the board. You’ll learn a lot, open some doors, and you’ll understand things a whole lot better. No matter what side of the aisle you sit on, always seek the truth.
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« Reply #393 on: January 30, 2018, 11:37:44 AM »

Again, if you've been a fan and have read these boards and fan groups since the 90s, especially since Brian started touring in 1999, there have ALWAYS been calls for Brian to quit. *EVERY* tour.

Apologies for pulling out this one sentence, because the whole of your post was 100% correct in detailing the reactions to every tour the man has done. That's fact, and I saw it play out too. Nearly 20 years of it, as I said in an earlier post.

But I pulled this quote out to ask specifically *why* you think this is the case, beyond possibly fans getting bored with it and reacting like this. I'm also curious if you've noticed especially in recent years fans of a certain mindset making these calls versus other groups of fans, and I'll leave that to be interpreted however someone chooses to take it.
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« Reply #394 on: January 30, 2018, 11:42:02 AM »

but you're not the main culprit here. 

You're right, it was this:


I think that's also something worth exploring for Brian at some point.   He does seem to enjoy playing still (with the possible exception of Pet Sounds), and that would take all of the strain from touring, especially with his back problems.  

KDS, why do you and others keep bringing up health issues with Brian? "Oh, poor Brian, he needs to give it a rest with his bad back..." etc etc etc.

The guy has toured the world and played a full schedule of dates, and unless I missed something Brian did not cancel or miss a single show due to health issues, back or otherwise.

Bruce missed shows due to health issues, maybe you guys could start posting for Mike to cut back on the touring so Bruce can stay healthy? Or to give Mike's voice a rest? Or doesn't it work like that?

Seriously, though...if Brian was too ill to tour or simply didn't want to, he would not be doing it. I don't know how much more on that topic can be repeated to counter all of these "oh poor, dear Brian, it's such a strain for him!" type of histrionics.

If he was cancelling shows because of health ailments, it would be another story. He hasn't.

He looks lethargic and uninvolved onstage. As he walks offstage, usually a roadie or two will walk out and take his arm as he walks. His voice has degraded noticeably over the past 3 years. He's well into his 70s and very overweight. Mike and Bruce are, in comparison, very spry and in good shape. The concerns about Brian's health are not unfounded.

You beat me to it.  

Your concerns about Brian's health seem to be more of an issue with you than it does Brian, his fans and the ticket-buying public, and most who have seen him play live and plan to see him live sometime this year.

Your willingness to agree with these things and raise the issues as others do regularly across multiple forums, then try to avoid or deflect when questioned or asked for a clarification, fall into line with the actions and responses of quite a few former members and discussions. Coincidence?

But hey, keep reminding people of how Brian has a bad back, the lethargy, the boredom, the overweight issue, how the Pet Sounds set ran its course, and all the rest of those points.

Because all of that is talking "all about the music", right?

And, other that the exaggeration about Brian's weight, please tell me what part of that assessment is untrue?  

And I don't have to remind people of those issues.   They're all well documented facts.  

But, yet, somehow I'm out to get poor victim Brian.  



I'm wondering why there is the need to continue bringing up these "well documented facts" among certain groups of fans whenever Brian's touring is discussed. Can you answer that, KDS?

If you're giving the "it's all about the music" line in a reply, maybe it would help if you explained how reminding people of Brian Wilson's health issues in discussions about a tour has anything to do with the music, or even the enjoyment ticket-buyers might get from seeing Brian perform live.

I've answered your questions enough today, GF, but I know no answer from me will satisfy you, so I'm going to be the bigger fan and walk away from this nonsense rather than hijack this thread any longer than it has to be. 



You won't answer a basic question, KDS, which your posts brought up in the first place? Why is there a need to bring up Brian's health issues whenever his touring is discussed, and what does it have to do with being "all about the music"?

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« Reply #395 on: January 30, 2018, 11:53:41 AM »

but you're not the main culprit here. 

You're right, it was this:


I think that's also something worth exploring for Brian at some point.   He does seem to enjoy playing still (with the possible exception of Pet Sounds), and that would take all of the strain from touring, especially with his back problems.  

KDS, why do you and others keep bringing up health issues with Brian? "Oh, poor Brian, he needs to give it a rest with his bad back..." etc etc etc.

The guy has toured the world and played a full schedule of dates, and unless I missed something Brian did not cancel or miss a single show due to health issues, back or otherwise.

Bruce missed shows due to health issues, maybe you guys could start posting for Mike to cut back on the touring so Bruce can stay healthy? Or to give Mike's voice a rest? Or doesn't it work like that?

Seriously, though...if Brian was too ill to tour or simply didn't want to, he would not be doing it. I don't know how much more on that topic can be repeated to counter all of these "oh poor, dear Brian, it's such a strain for him!" type of histrionics.

If he was cancelling shows because of health ailments, it would be another story. He hasn't.

He looks lethargic and uninvolved onstage. As he walks offstage, usually a roadie or two will walk out and take his arm as he walks. His voice has degraded noticeably over the past 3 years. He's well into his 70s and very overweight. Mike and Bruce are, in comparison, very spry and in good shape. The concerns about Brian's health are not unfounded.

You beat me to it.  

Your concerns about Brian's health seem to be more of an issue with you than it does Brian, his fans and the ticket-buying public, and most who have seen him play live and plan to see him live sometime this year.

Your willingness to agree with these things and raise the issues as others do regularly across multiple forums, then try to avoid or deflect when questioned or asked for a clarification, fall into line with the actions and responses of quite a few former members and discussions. Coincidence?

But hey, keep reminding people of how Brian has a bad back, the lethargy, the boredom, the overweight issue, how the Pet Sounds set ran its course, and all the rest of those points.

Because all of that is talking "all about the music", right?

And, other that the exaggeration about Brian's weight, please tell me what part of that assessment is untrue?  

And I don't have to remind people of those issues.   They're all well documented facts.  

But, yet, somehow I'm out to get poor victim Brian.  



I'm wondering why there is the need to continue bringing up these "well documented facts" among certain groups of fans whenever Brian's touring is discussed. Can you answer that, KDS?

If you're giving the "it's all about the music" line in a reply, maybe it would help if you explained how reminding people of Brian Wilson's health issues in discussions about a tour has anything to do with the music, or even the enjoyment ticket-buyers might get from seeing Brian perform live.

I've answered your questions enough today, GF, but I know no answer from me will satisfy you, so I'm going to be the bigger fan and walk away from this nonsense rather than hijack this thread any longer than it has to be. 



You won't answer a basic question, KDS, which your posts brought up in the first place? Why is there a need to bring up Brian's health issues whenever his touring is discussed, and what does it have to do with being "all about the music"?



Since you won't let it die, and feel the need to keep pushing, which is amazing as I know you're busying acting as an impartial moderator......

Three or four pages ago, HJ mentioned the possibility of a reunited Beach Boys lineup doing a Vegas residency. 

I simply said it would be a good idea for Brian Wilson to take some of the strain off touring because he had back issues. 

And, you decided to take offense to that statement, and in the process waste 3-4 pages of Brian's 2018 Tour Thread. 

I'm still not sure how suggesting a Vegas residency might be beneficial to Brian is somehow a bad statement or has some sort of "endgame" as you put it.

THAT'S ALL!!!
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« Reply #396 on: January 30, 2018, 11:55:52 AM »

HeyJude, excluding the Beatles discussions, I completely agree with your above post.

I was a very impressionable fan (hell I still am in some ways) and was definitely a Brianista when I first became a fan. Brian could never do any wrong, Mike sucked for tanking Smile, Mike sucked for every reason under the sun, I mean I can’t imagine how embarrassing my first posts here are. But since then I’ve seen a lot, heard a lot, read a lot - whether on the board, off the board, etc. And I still have a long way to go as a fan.

Us fans have our own unique perceptions of the band - they’re like fingerprints: no two perceptions are alike. So its easy to get into arguments when someone dares burst the bubble of our perception...we’ll even argue with people we mostly agree with. I am still learning about this band, and my opinion has evolved immensely in the last couple years, and it will continue to evolve as more interviews come out, more documentaries are made, more sets released, more books are written, more people speak up about this or that.

I think I somewhat understand why people on both ends of the spectrum think like they do. I think varying perceptions from both sides of the aisle can help create a realistic picture of the band and the history. But again, facts are absolutely necessary for our perceptions to be credible. If we don’t use facts, whether it’s Mike or some new fan on a forum, we’re doing the fandom and the history of the band a huge disservice.

I think sometimes some of the stuff I read can be quite damaging. For instance, on another board, I actually saw someone post the following (I'm paraphrasing a bit):

Why would Brian and Melinda schedule an after-tour dinner for a time when Mike and Bruce were unable to attend due to a charity event?

Unless this was posted with the most subtle, dry sense of irony ever, I think this person truly has this twisted logic. That Mike and Bruce not showing up at the tour-ending dinner was somehow Brian's fault for not scheduling it around Mike's schedule. This obviously ignores the obvious, that numerous members of Mike's band were at the dinner, pretty much disproving the idea that Mike's band needed to leave early to do a gig. And even if someone had some other personal issue to attend to, what are the chances that Mike *and* Bruce both had a pressing scheduling issue that *nobody* else including members of Mike's band had?

These are the same people that still post that Al's 1998 exit was just a case of Al being a dick, that John Stamos and "Full House" did not on ounce of harm to the BB's image, the same fans that in some cases seemed to *celebrate* Mike quitting the reunion in 2012.

Someone needs to at least try to make sure new fans don't gobble that garbage up.

And yeah, I think my previous posts in the "Beatles vs. Beach Boys" threads were more a case of just trying to put something in there saying "Hey everyone in the future who might read this! Not all Beach Boys fans blindly think seemingly nearly everything they did is better than any other band!"

I have by no means the widest musical tastes imaginable. I still feel like I don't try enough stuff outside of my preference/wheelhouse. But geez man, some of the tunnel vision from BB fans (and other fanbases) is unsettling. I recall someone liking Brian's cover of "Wanderlust" a few years ago, and I mentioned that it would be worth checking out McCartney's original. No dice. They didn't care. They didn't care about the song. They just cared that Brian was singing it. *That's* the type of fandom I try to snap people out of if I can, the fandom that, in the extreme, owns and listens to "Problem Child" and "Summer of Love" but hasn't even listened to "Sgt. Pepper" all the way through.

Yeah, I think where my irritation about the “facts” stems from is that I was once an impressionable fan swayed by false information. And I’ve seen it done since, and probably will continue to see it. The PS Forum is a growing forum and to see false information being thrown around is insulting to the fandom. But it’s from the same group of usuals who also think its cool to openly mock Brian and Melinda Wilson for years to prove a point...yeah, thats who I want to get my information from. I’m totally down to see a new forum spring up, but I hope the new fans there take some of those posts made there with a grain of salt. Best thing I learned from this fandom: do your own research - dig and ask questions on or off the board. You’ll learn a lot, open some doors, and you’ll understand things a whole lot better. No matter what side of the aisle you sit on, always seek the truth.

The whole ridiculous scene that happened here for years was due to the passing of bad if not slanderous information to often young, impressionable fans who didn't know any better, and those who did it now have free reign to continue doing it. I got messages of that kind too, which turned out to be either completely false or even personally slanderous, but now all of that has a new home for better or worse. If fans choose to believe people who have lied and spread false information to try to 'sway' impressionable fans into shaping facts into opinions a certain way, all that can be said is be careful of those selling that snake-oil and keep in mind the complete falsehoods that were told and spread by these keepers of the information in the past.

Reminds me of the old Westerns when a wagon would pull up in town, a fast-talking huckster masquerading as a doctor would stand on a crate in the town center and sell a miracle "cure all" tonic to unsuspecting townsfolk, and the night before anyone found out it was sugar water and not a miracle cure, those hucksters would quietly pack the wagon and ship out...heading for the next town full of unsuspecting suckers who would buy the tonic. Repeat ad infinitum.

I'd also say it's harder to seek the truth when there is an atmosphere as existed here,  now existing elsewhere with the same hucksters trying to sell the same sugar water to unsuspecting townsfolk.
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« Reply #397 on: January 30, 2018, 12:00:34 PM »

Since you won't let it die, and feel the need to keep pushing, which is amazing as I know you're busying acting as an impartial moderator......

Three or four pages ago, HJ mentioned the possibility of a reunited Beach Boys lineup doing a Vegas residency. 

I simply said it would be a good idea for Brian Wilson to take some of the strain off touring because he had back issues. 

And, you decided to take offense to that statement, and in the process waste 3-4 pages of Brian's 2018 Tour Thread. 

I'm still not sure how suggesting a Vegas residency might be beneficial to Brian is somehow a bad statement or has some sort of "endgame" as you put it.

THAT'S ALL!!!


Right. It's all about the music, too.




He looks lethargic and uninvolved onstage. As he walks offstage, usually a roadie or two will walk out and take his arm as he walks. His voice has degraded noticeably over the past 3 years. He's well into his 70s and very overweight. Mike and Bruce are, in comparison, very spry and in good shape. The concerns about Brian's health are not unfounded.

You beat me to it. 
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« Reply #398 on: January 30, 2018, 12:02:05 PM »

Again, if you've been a fan and have read these boards and fan groups since the 90s, especially since Brian started touring in 1999, there have ALWAYS been calls for Brian to quit. *EVERY* tour.

Apologies for pulling out this one sentence, because the whole of your post was 100% correct in detailing the reactions to every tour the man has done. That's fact, and I saw it play out too. Nearly 20 years of it, as I said in an earlier post.

But I pulled this quote out to ask specifically *why* you think this is the case, beyond possibly fans getting bored with it and reacting like this. I'm also curious if you've noticed especially in recent years fans of a certain mindset making these calls versus other groups of fans, and I'll leave that to be interpreted however someone chooses to take it.

I think Brian is a unique situation, a unique show. For "outsiders" who don't know anything about his life or his history, his live performances can be really weird. It's easy for that type of observer to say Brian's in no shape to perform live. I do understand that.

I think, all else being equal, it's not so much "Brian's nuts and shouldn't be touring", but it's more the same reason some people don't dig on a Bob Dylan concert, or Tom Waits, or Nick Cave, or whatever. Brian's voice, for a variety of common and less common reasons, is challenged, especially in concert settings.

I knew all this as a long-time fan going into the 1999 tour. I had seen the "Imagination" TV appearances. I had seen Brian at past BB shows. The weird, hyped up (maybe coked out?) performances on the 1977 tour. The quiet, off to the side performances from 1979 and 1980. The weird Landy-devised appearances of the late 80s (tight leather pants?). I know what I was getting into.

It was transcendent in ways I don't think even huge fans could have imagined. It was also still weird. Brian sang the wrong words during one song because he probably *shouldn't* have been using the teleprompter so much; he actually *didn't* need it. Brian in early 1999 shows did "fake" play the piano. But not because he *can't* play piano. It's because, for some reason, he had the idea that he couldn't just sit and sing (which is what he did on the 2000 tour I saw, resulting in some of his best vocals, as if he was cutting them in a studio).

But Brian fans "get" it. We can at times be overly forgiving. But it's not because simply he's "our guy", it's because we know the wringer he's been through, *numerous* times. And he *can* put on a good show. He can get in a good mood, and sing with gusto and energy. To this day.

My issue is that the misgivings were justified to some degree back in 1999, but we haven't really been given any further definitive info one way or the other since then. The same is true today as it was in 1999, and as a fan we either accept it and go to the show, or we don't. I respect both decisions. Have I ever wondered whether Brian should still be touring? Sure. I was at the 2007 show with Al where Brian decided to lay down on stage. There's no way that *wasn't* weird. But I also don't think he had  hit some new wall that wasn't there in 1999. He had bad days in 1999. He had a *really bad day* in 2007. And sometimes he also has "regular" bad days; he has a cold or just feels crummy or whatever.

But Brian touring is a unique thing unto itself in some ways, and that's why what some may feel is a simple call to question his weight or whatever is not simply a normal observation. It comes loaded with 50 years of band politics.

I don't think, pre-2012, there was much of any huge mechanism trying to actively tear Brian down. That *did* change post-C50. Those Mike interviews, those Beard pieces, those read to me (and it's just my opinion) to be a clear, active campaign to tear Brian down. I think some other fans that maybe tended to be a bit more friendly to Mike's "side" of things may have unknowingly been made a part of that sort of campaign.

I think there is a litmus test, in my mind, for how realistic a fan is willing to be about the deep, hardcore (unfortunate) politics surrounding this band. There are several litmus tests, but one is this: Do you think Jeff Foskett jumping from Brian's band to Mike's is a political move, and comes across (and maybe even was devised as) a big F-You to Melinda Wilson? If your answer is no, then I often fear that means you're either actively part of some weird campaign to paint Mike in a positive light, or you're unknowingly falling into that trap.

I don't think KDS came on this thread to rip Brian a new one. I think, as a *somewhat* newer/new-ish fan (meaing not decades and decades), he maybe doesn't see how defending Mike on average more than a typical fan, and then also saying some things that might reflect negatively on Brian, will often be met with a questioning of motives.

If we can be frank, I think KDS is (and I mean this as an absolutely neutral label, TRULY, because I can't think of a better descriptor) a fan of the fence-walking variety. There's no lack of a willingness to criticize both sides, but sometimes I sense of sake of false equivalency for the sake of it. There is indeed a fine line between being truly even-handed and fence-walking for the sake of it. I'm for criticizing only when it's warranted, but that doesn't mean "say one nice thing about this, and then one nice thing about that." So yeah, when it comes to hugely divisive stuff like C50, I have less patience, having studied that project as closely as one possibly could (and perhaps being privy to some things not published out there), for a "well, it was everybody's fault" attitude.

I'm rambling, so I'll stop for the moment.  LOL
« Last Edit: January 30, 2018, 12:06:09 PM by HeyJude » Logged

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« Reply #399 on: January 30, 2018, 12:05:30 PM »

Since you won't let it die, and feel the need to keep pushing, which is amazing as I know you're busying acting as an impartial moderator......

Three or four pages ago, HJ mentioned the possibility of a reunited Beach Boys lineup doing a Vegas residency. 

I simply said it would be a good idea for Brian Wilson to take some of the strain off touring because he had back issues. 

And, you decided to take offense to that statement, and in the process waste 3-4 pages of Brian's 2018 Tour Thread. 

I'm still not sure how suggesting a Vegas residency might be beneficial to Brian is somehow a bad statement or has some sort of "endgame" as you put it.

THAT'S ALL!!!


Right. It's all about the music, too.




He looks lethargic and uninvolved onstage. As he walks offstage, usually a roadie or two will walk out and take his arm as he walks. His voice has degraded noticeably over the past 3 years. He's well into his 70s and very overweight. Mike and Bruce are, in comparison, very spry and in good shape. The concerns about Brian's health are not unfounded.

You beat me to it. 

Uncle Walter was responding to your taking an issue with my post.   Other than the fact that I've acknowledged that "very overweight" is an exaggeration, what does that statement say that's not factual?   And how is pointing it out a bad thing, GF? 

Or do you want to continue to hijack this thread for four more pages? 
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