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Author Topic: The biggest revelation about Sunshine Tomorrow.. Brian's level of involvement..  (Read 11349 times)
Chocolate Shake Man
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« Reply #25 on: July 01, 2017, 08:34:20 AM »

I doubt most people here actually agree with the premise of this thread as stated in the subject matter.

I wouldn't have thought so either but Peter Reum is a well respected source.
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« Reply #26 on: July 01, 2017, 08:48:35 AM »

No mystery... I just meant the guys on this thread. Sam (OP here), guitarfool, rondemon...

And on the other board, I'm truly amazed to see the likes of Lee Dempsey and Mikie saying they're surprised to hear how in control Brian was too. It's not a sectarian viewpoint - I can't be bothered with all the Brianista/Lovester nonsense, there's nothing that interests me less. I'm just genuinely, genuinely surprised. There's been so many recordings out over the years that have shown that Brian was 'the man' in the studio until after Friends, and the gradual decline in involvement and participation didn't really set in until then.

Reading guitarfool and rab2591's posts above, I must have totally missed whatever was said here about how Carl did all the work after Smiley Smile (if indeed that *is* what was said). Or maybe I did read it and just totally forgot about it, because half an hour's selected listening to Smiley, WH and Friends session tapes would instantly disprove it, surely?

I don't doubt Carl stepped up *more* after SMiLE, and in time became a driving force in the studio... but for SS, WH, and Friends, you can't argue with what you hear on the sessions. It seems impossible to me that you could be uncertain about who is in charge, even if the group is playing much more of a role than they did from 1965 to summer 1967.

Matt: I wasn't surprised at all. Not a bit.

It was a case of certain people in the past few years actually arguing the fact that Brian produced WH, etc. and putting out a narrative as fact that Carl produced most of WH. I knew already, prior to this set coming out, that this narrative was incorrect. If the narrative totally and completely blown to pieces by the audio finally released on this set came from a place of grudges, axes to grind, personal beefs, or whatever...that's on the people who were arguing and posting that way.

If you know something is fact, and some are arguing to the contrary despite evidence existing that backs up that fact, it's maddening as hell. But, that was the state of this and other issues especially since late 2012 or so. And yes, indeed, the fact that people who placed themselves in elevated positions of knowledge or authority on the history were putting these things out there in some cases made it even worse.

So, this set validates the truth, essentially. Listen to the tapes, you'll hear the truth and the facts of those sessions. No one can argue what's heard on the tapes.

Maybe that's why some are genuinely surprised and are responding as such. People unfortunately have been led to believe certain narratives which are simply not true, and which in some cases came more from grudges and personal beefs than the actual history and facts. Maybe some had to concede in light of the public hearing the hard evidence that there is no more bullshit that will stand in place of the actual truth. But that's the unfortunate part of that stuff corrupting the telling and reporting of the history.

Summing up: I already knew, I had no doubts, and argued as such several years ago on this board as the various narratives trying to dispute or diminish Brian's production role in the process or elevate others started going on the record.

What I have been posting here is a lot of pointing out a validation of what some of us already knew was the real story - the validation being the session material on this set - yet had to deal with arguing and debating and having to prove that 2+2 really did equal 4 as in many other cases of fact versus fiction coming from some people who either should have known better or who put grudges and personal affiliations and allegiances over stating fact.

Maybe you should be glad that you missed some of this stuff because it was literally like someone arguing that 2+2 is not 4, and E does not equal MC squared. Now everyone can hear it and the phony narrative can go straight to the garbage bin where it belongs.





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« Reply #27 on: July 01, 2017, 09:03:38 AM »

Ok, so Brian produced Wild Honey, was fully engaged and on point, and it still bombed.  Likewise with Friends.  Hmm, I'm not too sure I would be pushing this narrative as a Brianista.  Much as I like both records, I was always kind of relieved that Brian was somewhat insulated from their commercial failure by the "Produced by the Beach Boys" narrative.  But then again, maybe HE was expecting the commercial failure and wanted the credits to insulate him from that perceived impending failure....

Having said all this, Smiley and WH, much as I like them, are pullbacks artistically and commercially.  Doesn't mean they are bad, not saying that at all, just that, well, he did bunt, like at least twice in a row and that is something you just don't expect out of your power hitter....
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Jim V.
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« Reply #28 on: July 01, 2017, 09:08:09 AM »

While I agree that Brian was more involved than most popular opinion seemed to indicate I don't like the trash talking on somebody like Peter Reum, who in my opinion is one of the most knowledgeable and thoughtful fans of The Beach Boys, not to mention a huge, huge fan of Brian, who even inspired him to write "Don't Let Her Know She's an Angel." *



*Interesting story, maybe it's online somewhere.
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Chocolate Shake Man
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« Reply #29 on: July 01, 2017, 09:10:33 AM »

Ok, so Brian produced Wild Honey, was fully engaged and on point, and it still bombed.  Likewise with Friends.  Hmm, I'm not too sure I would be pushing this narrative as a Brianista. 

Since they are among two of the greatest albums ever made, I am quite happy with Brian's level of involvement as a fan.

Quote
Having said all this, Smiley and WH, much as I like them, are pullbacks artistically and commercially.  Doesn't mean they are bad, not saying that at all, just that, well, he did bunt, like at least twice in a row and that is something you just don't expect out of your power hitter....

Most of the band were not in much of a position to have expectations from their power hitter, given how little they seemed to like his work from about 1966 onwards.
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Chocolate Shake Man
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« Reply #30 on: July 01, 2017, 09:11:32 AM »

While I agree that Brian was more involved than most popular opinion seemed to indicate I don't like the trash talking on somebody like Peter Reum,

Who has done that?
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« Reply #31 on: July 01, 2017, 09:31:51 AM »

I doubt most people here actually agree with the premise of this thread as stated in the subject matter.

I wouldn't have thought so either but Peter Reum is a well respected source.

Clearly we all respect Peter for so many reasons, and his quoted statement certainly contains many seeds of truth. But it is too sweeping in its implications that Brian was a non-functional mental wreck immediately after the shelving of SMiLE. And other experts can correct me, but I simply do not recall cocaine taking center stage in the drug world at that time...it strikes me that this was a seventies phenomenon, which fits in more with Brian's legendary siesta from 1973-75.

Let's remember that the BBs deal with Warners had certain guidelines about how much involvement Brian would have with the LP, so it was clearly necessary for them to make it appear that he was more involved with the studio process than was actually the case. But what we know now indicates that this period began in mid-late '68 and was still nothing like the full-blown malaise that took hold in '73 (with some still continuing to speculate that it was Murry's death which triggered it...I would guess that this was more peripheral, and what really brought it to a head was twofold--the despair of having become a piata within his own band, particularly with the Love power grab underway, and escalating mental/emotional crises exacerbated by a sharp increase in drug intake during that time (remember, we are referring to '73-'75 here).

Ok, so Brian produced Wild Honey, was fully engaged and on point, and it still bombed.  Likewise with Friends.  Hmm, I'm not too sure I would be pushing this narrative as a Brianista.  Much as I like both records, I was always kind of relieved that Brian was somewhat insulated from their commercial failure by the "Produced by the Beach Boys" narrative.  But then again, maybe HE was expecting the commercial failure and wanted the credits to insulate him from that perceived impending failure....

Having said all this, Smiley and WH, much as I like them, are pullbacks artistically and commercially.  Doesn't mean they are bad, not saying that at all, just that, well, he did bunt, like at least twice in a row and that is something you just don't expect out of your power hitter....

Thanks for this load of drivel that clearly misses the point of what Brian and the band were trying to do at this time. Ignoring the incredible backlash against Smiley is what allows this ludicrous lumping of cause, effect and result. WILD HONEY did not "bomb." Miraculously, given the press at the time, it withstood all that and cracked the top 25. "Darlin'" was a Top 20 hit. Now, FRIENDS was a different matter--it really did BOMB. Part of that seems to have been some really strange timing where the single "Friends" was released three months ahead of the LP and fell off the charts before the album was released.

But what's clear is that even as Brian continued to be the prime mover of the studio work in this time frame, the democratic principle was evolving right alongside that, with Dennis's songs emerging and Carl becoming more of an independent force in the studio (as the quotes in Howie's liner notes for ST demonstrate). It's easy to forget that Carl was still just 20-21 in this time frame--anyone who listens to the PARTY! session CD can hear that his growth into the role he would shortly have within the band was already occurring then...at a time when he was still only 18.

Trying to recover one's bearings after a trying situation was what was going on at the time, which was a helluva lot more important than coming up with a "retro" song that would somehow bring them back to pre-PS commercial glory. This ill-informed pile of ill will overlooks the fact that later in '68, Mike got his way and co-created with Brian a "retro" song--"Do It Again"--and while it has been fully "rehabilitated" thanks to the ripeness of time, the fact AT THE TIME was that it was derided for trying to calculatedly be retro and it struggled to get to the Top 20, doing no better than "Darlin'."

Frankly, it's clear that you haven't bothered to get the ST set, and are, as usual, talking out of your hat.

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« Reply #32 on: July 01, 2017, 10:26:20 AM »

Brian is always in charge in the studio even in at the worst personal shape of the 1970s. I think Peter Reum meant more the management and leadership out of the studio after the 20/20 to love you era.
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And production aside, Id so much rather hear a 14 year old David Marks shred some guitar on Chug-a-lug than hear a 51 year old Mike Love sing about bangin some chick in a swimming pool.-rab2591
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« Reply #33 on: July 01, 2017, 10:32:18 AM »

There were people saying Carl produced most of Wild Honey. I remember well because I was neck-deep in trying to argue against that - whether it was a statement, opinion, narrative, agenda, whatever...and whatever it was, it was as untrue then as it is now. But now fans can hear how untrue it was by listening to this set. Even if some can't distinguish the voice of Brian counting off a song at the piano versus the voice of Carl...and I still want to know if anyone can pinpoint and share any examples on this set that would show Carl producing or leading these sessions.

Someone mentioned hearing Bruce doing some vocal arranging somewhere on this set...I'd like to listen to that too, can someone post a track and a time for reference? Thanks!
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« Reply #34 on: July 01, 2017, 10:51:32 AM »

Oh I agree with you on that, the narrative pushed by a few posters of Carl producing wild honey strangely fits into a 2005 lawsuit....
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And production aside, Id so much rather hear a 14 year old David Marks shred some guitar on Chug-a-lug than hear a 51 year old Mike Love sing about bangin some chick in a swimming pool.-rab2591
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« Reply #35 on: July 01, 2017, 10:57:25 AM »

Brian is always in charge in the studio even in at the worst personal shape of the 1970s. I think Peter Reum meant more the management and leadership out of the studio after the 20/20 to love you era.

Maybe but what does that have to do with him "having heard nearly 90% of the tape from those years"?
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« Reply #36 on: July 01, 2017, 11:13:06 AM »

I missed that exact post in that old thread, you are right 100% since the tapes show BW in charge.
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And production aside, Id so much rather hear a 14 year old David Marks shred some guitar on Chug-a-lug than hear a 51 year old Mike Love sing about bangin some chick in a swimming pool.-rab2591
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« Reply #37 on: July 01, 2017, 11:15:55 AM »

To me the more interesting question is: if Brian was still mostly calling the shots through the Friends era, why did he decide to change the produced credit from Brian to The Beach Boys at all?

I think the answer lies in that "Produced by Brian Wilson" can actually mean two distinct things: the technical studio producer and the person in charge of overall creative direction.

I would argue that after SMiLE it was the latter role that he ceded, at least partially. The other guys got a lot more input on the kind of approach they'd be taking, although the former role was still mostly Brian.

The key to this theory is the contemporary interview post SMiLE in which Brian basically calls the Beach Boys "squares". The subtext is his realization that the band has sensibilities somewhat distinct from his, at least at that time. Hence the production credit change and the new approach, a far cry from his SMiLE era interviews in which the possibilities are limitless and the Boys are capable of anything. Now it's more about, let's come up with stuff that these other guys will want to perform and be able to execute effectively for their road show.

For Smiley Smile, Mike (and maybe Brian himself to an extent) wished for the lyrics to be more relatable and so the VDP contributions were cut back considerably.

Wild Honey seems to be the best example of this dichotomy. To my ears, the creative direction is highly influenced by Carl and Mike, even though Brian's imprimatur is still all over everything save maybe Boogalooed it.

Now Friends is interesting because, again to my ears, it sounds the closest to the old "Produced by Brian Wilson" method of all the albums in this era. The degree of studio production and creative direction seems much more "pure Brian", informed by the laid back TM vibe that maybe they were all going for. It's interesting that after this sign of a renewed commitment from Brian from both the studio production and artistic direction standpoints, he really steps back drastically. As others have stated, the events of late 1968 seem to be just as crucial as the events of early 1967 in Brian's creative story, even though we know far less about the latter period...
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« Reply #38 on: July 01, 2017, 11:31:26 AM »

Ok, so Brian produced Wild Honey, was fully engaged and on point, and it still bombed.  Likewise with Friends.  Hmm, I'm not too sure I would be pushing this narrative as a Brianista.  Much as I like both records, I was always kind of relieved that Brian was somewhat insulated from their commercial failure by the "Produced by the Beach Boys" narrative.  But then again, maybe HE was expecting the commercial failure and wanted the credits to insulate him from that perceived impending failure....

Having said all this, Smiley and WH, much as I like them, are pullbacks artistically and commercially.  Doesn't mean they are bad, not saying that at all, just that, well, he did bunt, like at least twice in a row and that is something you just don't expect out of your power hitter....

Interesting theory,  Adam
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« Reply #39 on: July 01, 2017, 11:44:12 AM »

You can sense that something is changing over these sessions -- the mere fact that Carl is singing lead as much as he is, the fact that Mike is writing the lyrics. As stated earlier, the band is now more of a true band, like those earlier records where Dennis brought back themes and Mike provided words. Brian is still there most steps of the way, the music is still ambitious and accomplished in a way that few managed in that era -- but.

Remember that folks saw Pet Sounds as a commercial disappointment. Smile was scrapped. And Smiley, WH, Friends and the rest -- they all bombed commercially. Brian was still able to come up with a hit single when he put his mind to it, but surely it means something that "Darlin'" was a reused Honeys melody. And "Do It Again" from a bit afterward was a self-conscious rewrite.

Brian was too fragile, too buffeted by the personalities around him, and above all too dependent on feedback from a mass audience to survive the problems engulfing the group.
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« Reply #40 on: July 01, 2017, 11:49:20 AM »

To me the more interesting question is: if Brian was still mostly calling the shots through the Friends era, why did he decide to change the produced credit from Brian to The Beach Boys at all?

I think the answer lies in that "Produced by Brian Wilson" can actually mean two distinct things: the technical studio producer and the person in charge of overall creative direction.

I would argue that after SMiLE it was the latter role that he ceded, at least partially. The other guys got a lot more input on the kind of approach they'd be taking, although the former role was still mostly Brian.

The key to this theory is the contemporary interview post SMiLE in which Brian basically calls the Beach Boys "squares". The subtext is his realization that the band has sensibilities somewhat distinct from his, at least at that time. Hence the production credit change and the new approach, a far cry from his SMiLE era interviews in which the possibilities are limitless and the Boys are capable of anything. Now it's more about, let's come up with stuff that these other guys will want to take to their road show.

For Smiley Smile, Mike (and maybe Brian himself to an extent) wished for the lyrics to be more relatable and so the VDP contributions were cut back considerably.

Wild Honey seems to be the best example of this dichotomy. To my ears, the creative direction is highly influenced by Carl and Mike, even though Brian's imprimatur is still all over everything save maybe Boogalooed it.

Now Friends is interesting because, again to my ears, it sounds the closest to the old "Produced by Brian Wilson" method of all the albums in this era. The creative direction seems much more "him" other than the laid back TM vibe that maybe they were all going for. It's interesting that after this sign of a renewed commitment from Brian from both the studio production and artistic direction standpoints, he really steps back drastically. As others have stated, the events of late 1968 seem to be just as crucial as the events of early 1967 in Brian's creative story, even though we know far less about the latter period...

I think we need to put some of the facts on the table for the discussion.

There may be some confusion between "creative direction" and the actual ability to create an album's worth of material. Neither Mike nor Carl could do that in October 1967. Blunt fact, Carl didn't write an original song of his own until several years later. The only thing Mike "produced" from this time period was the Pickle Brothers, and the results of that can be heard and judged accordingly. They simply did not have the tools in their arsenal to tackle the full process yet. If anyone would be stepping up, it was Dennis, and even with his original material to come with Friends, Brian was still there contributing (uncredited) and acting like a mentor.

Brian wanted the band members to take a more active role. There was also the sense of trying to gel more as a band and get the others to become more active in the nuts and bolts of making recordings and writing songs, where Brian could eventually step back even more and let them flourish. But in Fall 1967, no one else was there in terms of ability. It would take more practice and hands on work to get to where they would soon be.

Since the Preiss book came out in 1978, there was a quote from Carl on the record that the creative direction of Wild Honey was Brian's, specific to going for a more hard-edged R&B sound, and also specific to the vocals. According to Carl, Brian was tired of having the band's voices compared to choirboys. It explains perfectly the shift to what we hear especially from Carl and Brian vocally on WH. Carl spelled it out to the letter in terms of that creative direction. It was Brian, much more than Carl and Mike, who wanted to go for that new sound with the band.

Keep in mind - Wild Honey the single was recorded and released prior to the album. It charted top 5 in more urban markets like Detroit and Philly, whose radio audiences were more receptive to R&B music in general and played those records more than other markets. That bit of history gets overlooked - Wild Honey did go top 5 in certain urban markets. Brian was right at least on people willing to buy a good R&B single from the Beach Boys. Those markets bought the single.

Then...the Redwood thing, etc...the band all but begged then demanded Brian "come back" to produce a Beach Boys album after devoting time (and original songs) to outside artists slated for the Brother label.

Logic and common sense would suggest if anyone else in the band individually or as a group could have written and produced a handful of songs from beginning to end without Brian or with minimal involvement, they would not have needed him back at the helm as they did.

When Carl himself said it was Brian's creative direction to go R&B with a harder vocal sound, and his commentary has been on the record for almost 40 years, that's pretty airtight evidence and reporting of how and why things happened as they did with the WH single and album.

In terms of the "produced by The Beach Boys" credit, aside from what I mentioned above and the desire to get back as a group in some ways, consider what ex-wife Marilyn said in one of the 90's documentaries about that credit and Brian wanting to pull back. It was to the tune of Brian tired of the criticism and infighting about the music and saying to them "if you guys think you can do it better, go right ahead and start doing it". But the truth is, they were not at a skill level to do it as of 1967, definitely not in terms of writing full songs without Brian and not yet there in terms of the start to finish production process of making a new album. That's why Brian is still heard calling the shots on this new set.

There is a funny sense of trying to put others into the existing film frame like Woody Allen did with Zelig, suggesting no matter what actually happened there is still credit to be handed out despite that credit not really existing that prominently as fact. Or, the credit being overblown.
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« Reply #41 on: July 01, 2017, 11:59:23 AM »

Another theory blown away by this release was Mike Love being really involved with let the wind blow in the studio.
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And production aside, Id so much rather hear a 14 year old David Marks shred some guitar on Chug-a-lug than hear a 51 year old Mike Love sing about bangin some chick in a swimming pool.-rab2591
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« Reply #42 on: July 01, 2017, 12:03:13 PM »

Not to mention the deal with Mama Says which were Van Dyke's lyrics (slim as they may be) dating back to a Smile fragment which Mike somehow gets a credit for co-writing.
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« Reply #43 on: July 01, 2017, 12:07:57 PM »

Guitarfool, I feel like I'm largely saying the same thing you're saying, just in a different way. I'm not suggesting that Brian isn't making the creative decisions in this period, it's just that he's taking the concerns and sensibilities of the other members more into account in his decision making rather than simply going with his unfettered creative vision as he mostly did up to and including the SMiLE era (with the exception perhaps of Party). Maybe rather than saying Wild Honey reflected the creative inclinations of the other BBs, I'll argue that Brian's creative decisions were being made with the wants and needs of the other members on his mind more than before.
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« Reply #44 on: July 01, 2017, 12:36:07 PM »

Another theory blown away by this release was Mike Love being really involved with let the wind blow in the studio.

Yeah...a certain discredited pretend scholar used to claim that the song was Mike's and Brian rearranged it. Same guy who claimed Here Comes the Night was sung by Carl.
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« Reply #45 on: July 01, 2017, 12:43:37 PM »

To me the more interesting question is: if Brian was still mostly calling the shots through the Friends era, why did he decide to change the produced credit from Brian to The Beach Boys at all?

Three reasons, not musically exclusive.

1. A desire to re-integrate the Boys and the band concept into the recording process following, from Brian's own account, a near break-up when Brian unilaterally decided to shelve a year's worth of expensive and time-consuming recording work.

2. A deliberate rejection of the "Brian as musical godhead" identity that had been built around him by well-meaning public relations officers but, from Brian's perspective, had produced very little usable material.

3. Passive aggression.
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« Reply #46 on: July 01, 2017, 04:06:26 PM »

The Produced by the Beach Boys credit:

1. To counter the "beach boys are puppets and Brian the genius/puppet master" hype

2. The music since it is played by the Beach Boys is literally "produced by the Beach Boys"  (a different meaning of produced than the traditional record producing credit to be sure, but it counters the bad press that the music was all done by studio session musicians and the Beach Boys weren't playing on any of the records aka the Monkees.  And the Monkees thing was not completely correct either.)

3. After the bad UK press of recent tours where they were criticized for not reproducing their sound on record, Brian wanted to simplify the music and certainly having the Boys play the music themselves would mean it would be readily reproducible on stage - so this is where I see Brian taking the group's concerns and changing the musical direction to suit the group and their live performances.  Carl as leader of the touring group would certainly be an influence here.

4. In many ways I think Wild Honey, and Smiley to a lesser extent, were done to cater to Mike as a "payback" for the Pet Sounds/Smile experimentation and the cutting him out of songwriting royalties.  First the Brian and Mike single, then Smiley, and then Wild Honey with Mike granted co-writer credit on everything.  Mike was always into R & B (although Brian was too, but Mike more so and I believe Mike's enthusiasm for R & B was shared with Brian who subsequently adopted the same enthusiasm) and Brian knew he would be on board with this direction AND it would suit his lyric writing skills (in a way Pet Sounds and Smile did not).

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« Reply #47 on: July 01, 2017, 04:33:59 PM »

Yes, maybe someone can point to a specific thread.

However, a lot of this also just stems from the fact that the production credits post-Pet Sounds are credited not to Brian but to The Beach Boys. And added to that, you have various pop media sources including the TV movies which essentially depicts Brian as going into hibernation with the collapse of Smile. All those things add up in the minds of some that Brian was off in his own world from early 1967 onwards. Nowhere was this more striking than in the American Family movie when Brian crashes a Sunflower session. The guys ask what they think of the recording and Brian simply sits down at a piano and plays some weird riff and the guys just look at him, mourning the loss of their former creative hero. The only problem with this depiction is that the song they were recording was Add Some Music - which Brian himself wrote! A fact that disrupts the whole intent of the scene.

So one of the things that people are suggesting is how much this alters what has been a long, ongoing popular assumption about what happened to Brian after Smile. Yes, probably most people here don't share that opinion (and, then again, maybe a former post will suggest that some do) but I think one of the central points here is that this set challenges that particular sentiment.

I met Brian in August 1969.  He was vital, involved and as brilliant as always.  I did see Carl doing part of the final mix of Sunflower at Wally Heider with Steve Desper.  I don't know how much Brian was involved in that, but his compositions are obvious.  Before that, if you get Brian's music you get his influence. 

After that, I saw what the other BBs would do to get him to help in the studio.  He was "the man."  I'll bet if Carl and Dennis were alive today, they'd agree.  Unfortunately, I have no proof.  Not to mention, where would any of them have been musically without Brian's training and influence?  Let's get serious here.
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guitarfool2002
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« Reply #48 on: July 01, 2017, 06:20:29 PM »

Guitarfool, I feel like I'm largely saying the same thing you're saying, just in a different way. I'm not suggesting that Brian isn't making the creative decisions in this period, it's just that he's taking the concerns and sensibilities of the other members more into account in his decision making rather than simply going with his unfettered creative vision as he mostly did up to and including the SMiLE era (with the exception perhaps of Party). Maybe rather than saying Wild Honey reflected the creative inclinations of the other BBs, I'll argue that Brian's creative decisions were being made with the wants and needs of the other members on his mind more than before.

I may have taken what you wrote, specifically about Mike and Carl and creative direction, in a way other than you intended. Just to understand where I'm coming from, in recent years there have been deliberate efforts to lessen the role Brian played in favor of boosting the credits for other members, with some comments coming in modern interviews with Mike and whatnot. Some of those comments went directly to the issues of Brian's role as producer, the roles in creative decision making, and in the case of Wild Honey, suggestions that Carl produced the majority of Wild Honey. As in most of these cases, it tends to be a lot of mistaken views or hogwash at best...and deliberate attempts to change historical fact at worst. Often by those who are either self-appointed keepers and distributors of the band's history or who assumed that role by default, somehow.

So some of these points can tend to raise the blips on the radar screen.

I do think, and have discussed at length as recent as last year on this board, how the critical drubbing the band received for those live shows in Spring 1967 was a factor in the music changing so radically as it did, including the recording process itself. There are interviews from that time where Carl, Mike, etc try to address that negative reception from some circles, centered around the live concerts not sounding like the records and even pointing out how they tried and were denied the addition of players to the core band due to some union regulation in the UK, or whatever happened.

Well, how could they match the sound, right? You can't have a 5-piece or even an augmented 5-piece band reproducing recordings where Brian had 20 musicians playing together in the studio.

In that regard, I think The Beatles not only were sick of touring in general, but they knew they could not match the directions their music was going in the studio in any valid way on the live stage. The entire mindset changed, and the Beatles said no more touring. Yet they were still the Beatles, right? It was taking them more months to record a single album than it had before, just like Brian.

But there was no pressure to tour or play live within the Beatles. They drew that line and stuck with it, and made records instead.

What The Beach Boys did was, with Brian, start making records in a way that could be reproduced on stage and not sound all that far out from the records. The Hawaii shows were an attempt to do that, I say. Which might explain the rearrangements of some of their 65-66 hits at those shows too.

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"All of us have the privilege of making music that helps and heals - to make music that makes people happier, stronger, and kinder. Don't forget: Music is God's voice." - Brian Wilson
SamMcK
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« Reply #49 on: July 01, 2017, 07:42:59 PM »

Smiley Smile, but particularly Wild Honey and Friends are surefire attempts at the boys (largely Brian) stripping it down to basics and involving the band more in the proceedings. The main reason for The Beach Boys production credit?

1. To get rid of a lot of the pressure from Brian.
2. Try and step away from the godlike adulation of one Brian Wilson and to get The Beach Boys to be taken seriously as a democratic band, not just one with a puppet master pulling all the strings. (Which is how many fans and critics have viewed the group since the mid-60s. Deserved or not)

I think when I wrote my opening post I should have been clearer that believing that Brian was not the mastermind behind Wild Honey was never something i've actually believed, rather that Sunshine Tomorrow shatters the myth that a lot of people have believed and continue to believe which is that Brian was barely hanging on after SMiLE's collapse and The Beach Boys immediately took up the mantle from Brian. Documentations such as this release show that he was in the drivers seat for the next several albums. Even during his psychiatric troubles during the 20/20 era it was still him the other boys relied on heavily. The I Can Hear Music single and the Sunflower album seem to be the real start of The Beach Boys functioning as a democratic unit in all sense of the word.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2017, 07:45:13 PM by SamMcK » Logged
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