The Beach Boys Wild Honey(Sunshine Tomorrow) 2CD Set?

[Don Malcolm]

Staying with the little digression about Brian-Mike songwriting...I appreciate the correction on the songs, I simply omitted them because they were not Brian-Mike by themselves and we are missing some of the circumstances that may ensued in terms of how these songs came about.

Perhaps when we get to those LPs and we have archival releases for them (we can only hope!) some of these details will emerge. We can hope that Howie might find a way to coax some recollections at that time.

As for the minor dustup in the recent pages of this thread: it's all true that 1967 was an incredibly tumultuous year for the BBs. Much intrigue, and many heroes and villains (sometimes the same guy!). But what this new archival release is designed to do is remind us just how much music the band managed to produce in a year that started with them on top of the world and ended with a lot of folks in the world of music scratching their heads. Time has vindicated the band and the music, and their willingness to put this out there as a testament to their ability to survive and even thrive creatively is what is being celebrated with this release. Celebrate the news!!

[hideyotsuburaya]

returning to the DARLIN' Redwood issue and exactly what/when lyrics Mike Love wrote,  there is contradiction and inaccuracy to pass around.  Brian took the old THINKING 'BOUT YOU BABY melody and gave it the title DARLIN' for the first Redwood single based on Danny Hutton's use of the expression.  They (Redwood) even recorded it as a Brian Wilson production because it's been said "the Redwood vocals on DARLIN' were erased and no longer exist".  What lyrics did Redwood sing--new ones written by Mike Love, and the same as Carl sang when it became a Beach Boys tune before long?  Personally I don't think so, even if Mike supported a Redwood single-only release in theory

[Bicyclerider]

Looking at the year in terms of their recording and releases, this was an incredible "downer" year for the Beach Boys who seemed directionless.  Smile is abandoned.  Carl is in trouble for refusing the draft.
 They pass on Monterey.  Heroes is released and makes a disappointing 12 on the charts briefly before disappearing.  Smiley makes only 41 on the album charts, a new low for the Boys.  The live album is abandoned after recording the live concerts and a fake studio concert.  Brian decides to get into an "R & B bag" but the Wild Honey single continues the descent with a 31 placing, while Darlin' seems to be a small step in the right direction with a 19 placing. The Beach Boys are castigated in Rolling Stone, the arbiter of hipness, as being too caught up in trying to catch up with the Beatles, and suddenly their music has gone from cutting edge to irrelevant and old fashioned.  Brian tries to get something going with Redwood where he wouldn't have the Beach Boys/Smile/surf and car baggage but is denied by Mike and the group.

But as Don pointed out, through it all they were making incredible music that has more than stood the test of time.  This release will be both a vindication of Brian's vision and direction (or lack of direction, whatever - it seemed to work out for the music) and show that during the "years in the wilderness" between 1967 and 1971 (when they suddenly became hip again with Surf's Up)they were an incredibly productive and creative band.

[SMiLE Brian]

A candle glows brightest right before blowing out.....

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

As for the minor dustup in the recent pages of this thread: it's all true that 1967 was an incredibly tumultuous year for the BBs. Much intrigue, and many heroes and villains (sometimes the same guy!). But what this new archival release is designed to do is remind us just how much music the band managed to produce in a year that started with them on top of the world and ended with a lot of folks in the world of music scratching their heads. Time has vindicated the band and the music, and their willingness to put this out there as a testament to their ability to survive and even thrive creatively is what is being celebrated with this release. Celebrate the news!!

100% agreed!!!

[CenturyDeprived]

I'm really glad that a release like this is coming out where all the living participants seem legitimately enthusiastic.

Is there another post-Wild Honey release that could possibly garner such across the board enthusiasm from the living band members? Excepting Love You, the album Friends was Brian's last stand as a really major contributor to a BB album, yet that album has much less Mike presence, so would Mike be as hot on a big Friends reissue? I hope so, but I do wonder.

I guess if this set does sell well (which fortunately it seems it will do), and future box sets come out for other post-Wild Honey releases, at minimum the band members will probably put on an enthusiastic face to promote, if it means more moola for them. Kind of how Mike put on somewhat of a reluctant happy face about The Smile Sessions, even though I'm sure that material is not something that brings him as much joy or fond memories as Wild Honey. I suppose Brian would have no reason to be less than enthusiastic about a Sunflower deluxe release, even though his involvement was more minimal.

I have already pre-ordered two copies of Sunshine Tomorrow, one as a gift. Has anyone else on this board pre-ordered more than one?

[Jim V.]

I'm really glad that a release like this is coming out where all the living participants seem legitimately enthusiastic.

Is there another post-Wild Honey release that could possibly garner such across the board enthusiasm from the living band members? Excepting Love You, the album Friends was Brian's last stand as a really major contributor to a BB album, yet that album has much less Mike presence, so would Mike be as hot on a big Friends reissue? I hope so, but I do wonder.

I guess if this set does sell well (which fortunately it seems it will do), and future box sets come out for other post-Wild Honey releases, at minimum the band members will probably put on an enthusiastic face to promote, if it means more moola for them. Kind of how Mike put on somewhat of a reluctant happy face about The Smile Sessions, even though I'm sure that material is not something that brings him as much joy or fond memories as Wild Honey. I suppose Brian would have no reason to be less than enthusiastic about a Sunflower deluxe release, even though his involvement was more minimal.

I have already pre-ordered two copies of Sunshine Tomorrow, one as a gift. Has anyone else on this board pre-ordered more than one?

You make some interesting points Century. And that's why you're one of my fave posters! 

But yeah, as far as all the guys being gung-ho for a release, you've got a point. I know that Bruce has said that he thought Friends was "wimpy" and that in his opinion he didn't "think we were doing anything where Brian was at full strength." Now he has has said that he thinks the song "Friends" is fabulous though, and therein you have you're Bruce quote for the release saying how much he loved that song, and how he also got two tracks on the next album ("Bluebirds Over the Mountain" and "The Nearest Faraway Place"). I also remember Mike on the Warmth of the Sun Podcast where he was saying something like while "Friends" was a nice song, it was a waltz* and he couldn't understand how radio would play a song like that. As far as Brian and Al, I'm sure both would love a more in-depth examination of the Friends era.

Then as you go through the other years, I wonder really what you have to work with. So what I'm thinking would be next year covering Friends and 20/20 and 2019 doing Sunflower probably? Since a lot of the material was recorded in 1969. Then I suppose 2020 might be kinda quiet, although I think sometime between 2020 and maybe 2023 we might finally get that early '70s Denny solo album we've been waiting so long for. So that might be kinda neat. And who knows, maybe there is still early '70s treasure to be found from Brian and company. It seems for the most part that all the gold has been mined in those hills but who knows? Maybe there is more?


*Mike also apparently has trouble pronouncing the world waltz, pronouncing it something like "walse," though I admit I've heard other people pronounce it that way as well.

[CenturyDeprived]

I'm really glad that a release like this is coming out where all the living participants seem legitimately enthusiastic.

Is there another post-Wild Honey release that could possibly garner such across the board enthusiasm from the living band members? Excepting Love You, the album Friends was Brian's last stand as a really major contributor to a BB album, yet that album has much less Mike presence, so would Mike be as hot on a big Friends reissue? I hope so, but I do wonder.

I guess if this set does sell well (which fortunately it seems it will do), and future box sets come out for other post-Wild Honey releases, at minimum the band members will probably put on an enthusiastic face to promote, if it means more moola for them. Kind of how Mike put on somewhat of a reluctant happy face about The Smile Sessions, even though I'm sure that material is not something that brings him as much joy or fond memories as Wild Honey. I suppose Brian would have no reason to be less than enthusiastic about a Sunflower deluxe release, even though his involvement was more minimal.

I have already pre-ordered two copies of Sunshine Tomorrow, one as a gift. Has anyone else on this board pre-ordered more than one?

You make some interesting points Century. And that's why you're one of my fave posters!  

But yeah, as far as all the guys being gung-ho for a release, you've got a point. I know that Bruce has said that he thought Friends was "wimpy" and that in his opinion he didn't "think we were doing anything where Brian was at full strength." Now he has has said that he thinks the song "Friends" is fabulous though, and therein you have you're Bruce quote for the release saying how much he loved that song, and how he also got two tracks on the next album ("Bluebirds Over the Mountain" and "The Nearest Faraway Place"). I also remember Mike on the Warmth of the Sun Podcast where he was saying something like while "Friends" was a nice song, it was a waltz* and he couldn't understand how radio would play a song like that. As far as Brian and Al, I'm sure both would love a more in-depth examination of the Friends era.

Then as you go through the other years, I wonder really what you have to work with. So what I'm thinking would be next year covering Friends and 20/20 and 2019 doing Sunflower probably? Since a lot of the material was recorded in 1969. Then I suppose 2020 might be kinda quiet, although I think sometime between 2020 and maybe 2023 we might finally get that early '70s Denny solo album we've been waiting so long for. So that might be kinda neat. And who knows, maybe there is still early '70s treasure to be found from Brian and company. It seems for the most part that all the gold has been mined in those hills but who knows? Maybe there is more?


*Mike also apparently has trouble pronouncing the world waltz, pronouncing it something like "walse," though I admit I've heard other people pronounce it that way as well.

Thanks for the kind words, sweetdudejim. And I agree about your sentiment that it would be good to stir up less negativity when possible, especially in threads like this. I'm guilty of that sometimes too, I have no qualms admitting that.

20/20 is one of my absolute fave BB albums, yet I fear it'll get the short shrift because the band wants to avoid the Manson connection as much as humanly possible, and also because the 50th anniversary of that album is also the the 50th anniversary of  the murders. It's a damn shame that Never Learn Not to Love has never attained the dignity it deserves as a production, because as I mentioned in some earlier thread long ago, I feel certain that if that exact same song had no Manson connection, we'd have already seen an instrumental version released as a Hawthorne, CA type of bonus track situation, and maybe an alternate or vocals-only version. IMO it's THAT good, and possibly the closest Denny ever got to getting a Brian vibe with the backing vocals (maybe they were ghost-arranged by Brian?).

Anyway, crossing my fingers that we'll get more in the future. I absolutely REALLY feel we'll get a Sunflower deluxe release, since that's widely regarded by critics and fans as a solid contender for arguably the best BB album after Pet Sounds. (Tears in the Morning excepted!)

Buy more than one copy! Get a gift for a BB nut or two!

[Theydon Bois]

Then I suppose 2020 might be kinda quiet

If only there were a Beach Boys album crying out for a bit of renewed attention in such a year!

[RangeRoverA1]

1. That many fans care about this (or any BBs) CD's chart is really puzzling. I don't understand what big importance there is if it's sitting at #97, #3, #12 etc.
2. Reply to CenturyDeprived - forgive me saying this but your point about 50th T-LB murder Anniversary is absolutely stupid. 1st, it's done deal & very ancient case. Then, generally, the hypersensitive attitude by some of you about Manson connection baffled me since I read related posts. Why do we care if 1) BBs didn't kill these celebs 2) they recorded NLNTL before the murders Edit: 3) BBs track differs from Manson's demo. Therefore, there shouldn't be even question or point made about 20/20 Anniversary coinciding with murders' 50 jubilee. So what if it does? It wouldn't do BBs reputation any bad.

[guitarfool2002]

Hey, nothing says easygoing album like bullying your cousin into giving up a hit tune cuz you have bills to pay. Jeesh, if only Mike learned the lawsuit game earlier in life to get cash, perhaps Redwood would've been a successful af band under the guidance of BW.

I wonder if that inspiration included Mike going to Heider's studio during a Redwood session Brian was producing, demanding the tapes from Brian as Carl stood by and watched, then walking out with them after shutting down the plans for the Redwood project Brian had been developing for Brother.

I'm gonna be honest. It's this kinda sh*t that makes me annoyed that the only two major Beach Boys forums around are this one and the Pet Sounds forum. Cuz it's like, in this case Brian is just pointing out how Mike inspired him as it relates to the Wild Honey material. Just that, that's it, simply put. But instead, because of the hatred of Mike it gets turned into how he's such a cocksucker because of what happened at Heider. The only issue was just about the Wild Honey material and lo and behold the freakin' moderator does this kinds sh*t...

However, when talking about the music and the good memories that BRIAN HIMSELF was bringing up, could we at least give the group (including Mike) their due and discuss the material in that way? Now unlike people like filledeplage or other nitwits, I am not against discussing non-music issues as it pertains to the group, not at all. But just randomly writing sh*t just to throw shade, I think it's lame, and just adds to bullshit that has permeated the Beach Boys fan community for so long. And as far as having an online community these days, it's either stay here and deal with some of the ridiculousness or go to the Pet Sounds forum and experience the alt-right racism and hate from The Real Beach Boy and filledesplooge and their ilk or the Dr. Love apologetics of AGD and Cam. Kinda sucks.

*Sorry Ricky. besides your lead on "Here She Comes" and the drums on "Sail on, Sailor" I just don't know that much about ya or have much to judge you on!

In total fairness to Guitarfool, I mistakenly took Brian's quote out of context...Brian is referring to Smiley Smile (not Wild Honey) when he mentions that Mike inspired him. I keep forgetting there are Smiley Smile tracks on this set so I got confused when I was writing my rant of a post the other day. So if he was responding to my quote that's my bad for screwing the context of the quote up.

No worries, I read it the same way and apparently the post and the poster you're replying too here did as well. Maybe it's an issue with floating a quote like that in a press release and having it be taken to be applied to something else. We all thought it was Wild Honey as written above. No worries.

That was my issue when I read it. Brian had said regarding Redwood "Mike really put the screws on me". Contrast that with reading "Mike inspired me", again perhaps a mistake made in the context of that comment toward SS versus WH. He's also said they did not want him producing Redwood. And Carl's quote always stands out too because it's essentially what happened with the Wild Honey album - Brian wanted to go into more of an R&B and Motown direction, and he was tired of people relating their vocals to choirboys. So - On the album, Brian and Carl sang their guts out with a harder edge. Mike's vocals are the ones throughout the album, ironically, that were softer and gentler, even though he was the R&B guy. And this was even before he started meditating, when Brian and Carl had already explored some of those paths.

What I don't understand is this talk of negativity in bringing up what happened with Redwood. Despite some attempts to rewrite or dismiss what actually happened by some circles, it actually did happen as reported. It's fact. And the music surrounding Brian's project with Redwood is not only featured on this box set, but it's also a big part of what was happening in Fall '67, specifically the time period and music being featured on this box set. So it's at least relevant if fans wish to discuss it when discussing the box set which covers the period and the music being referenced. Right?

For me, a fascinating part of this is obviously we all know what happened to Redwood as Three Dog Night. They went on to huge commercial and popular success, as one of the top American bands of the 70's. Tens of millions of records sold.

And there was Brian who saw and heard something in this group to the point where it inspired him to want to write for and produce them. That's what Brother was set up in large part to do - To have a label outlet where the band members could bring in other artists and have a label to release the works. It was the template for what The Beatles and other groups would eventually do. Yet, there was Mike putting the kibosh on the deal, and trying to back-door the group with a lesser offer so Brian could not only work exclusively on producing the next BB album, but also write for the family band. It's no wonder Brian thought it was similar to some of what Murry did in the past regarding outside artists versus the family.

So yes, I am fascinated by the notion of not only the Redwood tapes and songs themselves, but also a group which would find enormous success a few years later walking out the door with Mike that time at Heider's studio. It's on a level with Decca's infamous rejection of The Beatles. They let a goldmine slip away. That must hurt.

Negativity? No - discussion on relevant topics.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

Great points. See, the Redwood thing is relevant because it shows where Brian was at...this and Wild Honey marked the only time Brian went for a more edgy sound;  it's interesting to think about what would've happened had he got the support he needed.  Of course maybe we wouldn't have had gotten Friends,  and that would've sucked. ..

[thorgil]

When I first read the track list for this release, tears came from my eyes. I was not expecting anything like this. It's like the 6th and 7th disc of the Smile sessions.
I'm also awed at the vastity of what must still lie unreleased in the vaults, and (again) at the greatness of the Beach Boys, which is beyond words.
Tears again as I'm writing this.

[The Heartical Don]

When I first read the track list for this release, tears came from my eyes. I was not expecting anything like this. It's like the 6th and 7th disc of the Smile sessions.
I'm also awed at the vastity of what must still lie unreleased in the vaults, and (again) at the greatness of the Beach Boys, which is beyond words.
Tears again as I'm writing this.

This.

I too am amazed about this 'vastity', incredible.

[Jim V.]

Hey, nothing says easygoing album like bullying your cousin into giving up a hit tune cuz you have bills to pay. Jeesh, if only Mike learned the lawsuit game earlier in life to get cash, perhaps Redwood would've been a successful af band under the guidance of BW.

I wonder if that inspiration included Mike going to Heider's studio during a Redwood session Brian was producing, demanding the tapes from Brian as Carl stood by and watched, then walking out with them after shutting down the plans for the Redwood project Brian had been developing for Brother.

I'm gonna be honest. It's this kinda sh*t that makes me annoyed that the only two major Beach Boys forums around are this one and the Pet Sounds forum. Cuz it's like, in this case Brian is just pointing out how Mike inspired him as it relates to the Wild Honey material. Just that, that's it, simply put. But instead, because of the hatred of Mike it gets turned into how he's such a cocksucker because of what happened at Heider. The only issue was just about the Wild Honey material and lo and behold the freakin' moderator does this kinds sh*t...

However, when talking about the music and the good memories that BRIAN HIMSELF was bringing up, could we at least give the group (including Mike) their due and discuss the material in that way? Now unlike people like filledeplage or other nitwits, I am not against discussing non-music issues as it pertains to the group, not at all. But just randomly writing sh*t just to throw shade, I think it's lame, and just adds to bullshit that has permeated the Beach Boys fan community for so long. And as far as having an online community these days, it's either stay here and deal with some of the ridiculousness or go to the Pet Sounds forum and experience the alt-right racism and hate from The Real Beach Boy and filledesplooge and their ilk or the Dr. Love apologetics of AGD and Cam. Kinda sucks.

*Sorry Ricky. besides your lead on "Here She Comes" and the drums on "Sail on, Sailor" I just don't know that much about ya or have much to judge you on!

In total fairness to Guitarfool, I mistakenly took Brian's quote out of context...Brian is referring to Smiley Smile (not Wild Honey) when he mentions that Mike inspired him. I keep forgetting there are Smiley Smile tracks on this set so I got confused when I was writing my rant of a post the other day. So if he was responding to my quote that's my bad for screwing the context of the quote up.

No worries, I read it the same way and apparently the post and the poster you're replying too here did as well. Maybe it's an issue with floating a quote like that in a press release and having it be taken to be applied to something else. We all thought it was Wild Honey as written above. No worries.

That was my issue when I read it. Brian had said regarding Redwood "Mike really put the screws on me". Contrast that with reading "Mike inspired me", again perhaps a mistake made in the context of that comment toward SS versus WH. He's also said they did not want him producing Redwood. And Carl's quote always stands out too because it's essentially what happened with the Wild Honey album - Brian wanted to go into more of an R&B and Motown direction, and he was tired of people relating their vocals to choirboys. So - On the album, Brian and Carl sang their guts out with a harder edge. Mike's vocals are the ones throughout the album, ironically, that were softer and gentler, even though he was the R&B guy. And this was even before he started meditating, when Brian and Carl had already explored some of those paths.

What I don't understand is this talk of negativity in bringing up what happened with Redwood. Despite some attempts to rewrite or dismiss what actually happened by some circles, it actually did happen as reported. It's fact. And the music surrounding Brian's project with Redwood is not only featured on this box set, but it's also a big part of what was happening in Fall '67, specifically the time period and music being featured on this box set. So it's at least relevant if fans wish to discuss it when discussing the box set which covers the period and the music being referenced. Right?

For me, a fascinating part of this is obviously we all know what happened to Redwood as Three Dog Night. They went on to huge commercial and popular success, as one of the top American bands of the 70's. Tens of millions of records sold.

And there was Brian who saw and heard something in this group to the point where it inspired him to want to write for and produce them. That's what Brother was set up in large part to do - To have a label outlet where the band members could bring in other artists and have a label to release the works. It was the template for what The Beatles and other groups would eventually do. Yet, there was Mike putting the kibosh on the deal, and trying to back-door the group with a lesser offer so Brian could not only work exclusively on producing the next BB album, but also write for the family band. It's no wonder Brian thought it was similar to some of what Murry did in the past regarding outside artists versus the family.

So yes, I am fascinated by the notion of not only the Redwood tapes and songs themselves, but also a group which would find enormous success a few years later walking out the door with Mike that time at Heider's studio. It's on a level with Decca's infamous rejection of The Beatles. They let a goldmine slip away. That must hurt.

Negativity? No - discussion on relevant topics.

You know what? You're totally right. By constantly bringing up the worst of the what the guys in the group can do, keeping everything Brian versus Mike, you've been defending Brian's honor, and keeping the focus where it should be, which is on behind the scenes kerfuffles and intra-band nonsense, instead of on the absolutely beautiful music that Brian has given us.

And the thing is, nearly all of us know about the Redwood incident and we know that Brian didn't do a thing wrong. But you know what? You should keep going over it again and again so we can keep retreading this unfortunate part of Beach Boys history. Andrew Doe and his lackeys are long gone. Everybody agrees that this was a dark day. But let's push that at the expense of talking about how "All Day All Night" differs from "Whistle In" or what on earth made the guys wanna re-record "Hide Go Seek" as a 1967 Beach Boys tune. Surely Brian would prefer we talk about moments he'd rather forget than talking about his music.

[guitarfool2002]

Hey, nothing says easygoing album like bullying your cousin into giving up a hit tune cuz you have bills to pay. Jeesh, if only Mike learned the lawsuit game earlier in life to get cash, perhaps Redwood would've been a successful af band under the guidance of BW.

I wonder if that inspiration included Mike going to Heider's studio during a Redwood session Brian was producing, demanding the tapes from Brian as Carl stood by and watched, then walking out with them after shutting down the plans for the Redwood project Brian had been developing for Brother.

I'm gonna be honest. It's this kinda sh*t that makes me annoyed that the only two major Beach Boys forums around are this one and the Pet Sounds forum. Cuz it's like, in this case Brian is just pointing out how Mike inspired him as it relates to the Wild Honey material. Just that, that's it, simply put. But instead, because of the hatred of Mike it gets turned into how he's such a cocksucker because of what happened at Heider. The only issue was just about the Wild Honey material and lo and behold the freakin' moderator does this kinds sh*t...

However, when talking about the music and the good memories that BRIAN HIMSELF was bringing up, could we at least give the group (including Mike) their due and discuss the material in that way? Now unlike people like filledeplage or other nitwits, I am not against discussing non-music issues as it pertains to the group, not at all. But just randomly writing sh*t just to throw shade, I think it's lame, and just adds to bullshit that has permeated the Beach Boys fan community for so long. And as far as having an online community these days, it's either stay here and deal with some of the ridiculousness or go to the Pet Sounds forum and experience the alt-right racism and hate from The Real Beach Boy and filledesplooge and their ilk or the Dr. Love apologetics of AGD and Cam. Kinda sucks.

*Sorry Ricky. besides your lead on "Here She Comes" and the drums on "Sail on, Sailor" I just don't know that much about ya or have much to judge you on!

In total fairness to Guitarfool, I mistakenly took Brian's quote out of context...Brian is referring to Smiley Smile (not Wild Honey) when he mentions that Mike inspired him. I keep forgetting there are Smiley Smile tracks on this set so I got confused when I was writing my rant of a post the other day. So if he was responding to my quote that's my bad for screwing the context of the quote up.

No worries, I read it the same way and apparently the post and the poster you're replying too here did as well. Maybe it's an issue with floating a quote like that in a press release and having it be taken to be applied to something else. We all thought it was Wild Honey as written above. No worries.

That was my issue when I read it. Brian had said regarding Redwood "Mike really put the screws on me". Contrast that with reading "Mike inspired me", again perhaps a mistake made in the context of that comment toward SS versus WH. He's also said they did not want him producing Redwood. And Carl's quote always stands out too because it's essentially what happened with the Wild Honey album - Brian wanted to go into more of an R&B and Motown direction, and he was tired of people relating their vocals to choirboys. So - On the album, Brian and Carl sang their guts out with a harder edge. Mike's vocals are the ones throughout the album, ironically, that were softer and gentler, even though he was the R&B guy. And this was even before he started meditating, when Brian and Carl had already explored some of those paths.

What I don't understand is this talk of negativity in bringing up what happened with Redwood. Despite some attempts to rewrite or dismiss what actually happened by some circles, it actually did happen as reported. It's fact. And the music surrounding Brian's project with Redwood is not only featured on this box set, but it's also a big part of what was happening in Fall '67, specifically the time period and music being featured on this box set. So it's at least relevant if fans wish to discuss it when discussing the box set which covers the period and the music being referenced. Right?

For me, a fascinating part of this is obviously we all know what happened to Redwood as Three Dog Night. They went on to huge commercial and popular success, as one of the top American bands of the 70's. Tens of millions of records sold.

And there was Brian who saw and heard something in this group to the point where it inspired him to want to write for and produce them. That's what Brother was set up in large part to do - To have a label outlet where the band members could bring in other artists and have a label to release the works. It was the template for what The Beatles and other groups would eventually do. Yet, there was Mike putting the kibosh on the deal, and trying to back-door the group with a lesser offer so Brian could not only work exclusively on producing the next BB album, but also write for the family band. It's no wonder Brian thought it was similar to some of what Murry did in the past regarding outside artists versus the family.

So yes, I am fascinated by the notion of not only the Redwood tapes and songs themselves, but also a group which would find enormous success a few years later walking out the door with Mike that time at Heider's studio. It's on a level with Decca's infamous rejection of The Beatles. They let a goldmine slip away. That must hurt.

Negativity? No - discussion on relevant topics.

You know what? You're totally right. But constantly bringing up the worst of the what the guys in the group can do, you've been defending Brian's honor, and keeping the focus where it should be, which is on behind the scenes kerfuffles and intra-band nonsense, instead of on the absolutely beautiful music that Brian has given us.

And the thing is, nearly all of us know about the Redwood incident and we know that Brian didn't do a thing wrong. But you know what? You should keep going over it again and again so we can keep retreading this unfortunate part of Beach Boys history. Andrew Doe and his lackeys are long gone. Everybody agrees that this was a dark day. But let's push that at the expense of talking about how "All Day All Night" differs from "Whistle In" or what on earth made the guys wanna re-record "Hide Go Seek" as a 1967 Beach Boys tune. Surely Brian would prefer we talk about moments he'd rather forget than talking about his music.

You're barking up the wrong tree if you're trying to take personal shots at me to get a reaction, which is exactly what's playing out here. If you want commentary and opinions on the music, it's happening and will continue to happen in the discussion. If you want to air personal issues or grind axes, either do it off the board or don't bother at all.

What will not stand is this kind of post where you're preaching about what you think is or isn't appropriate to discuss here and trying to put whatever your personal beefs are against me or whoever/whatever else into this. It was bad enough what happened with Desper, so how about taking a deep cleansing/calming breath and sticking to what YOU want to discuss instead of trying to impugn what others want to post or discuss?

[Mr. Tiger]

Is there another post-Wild Honey release that could possibly garner such across the board enthusiasm from the living band members? Excepting Love You, the album Friends was Brian's last stand as a really major contributor to a BB album, yet that album has much less Mike presence, so would Mike be as hot on a big Friends reissue? I hope so, but I do wonder.

I would think the best approach to getting Mike on board for a Friends-era release would be to push the TM angle. Give Mike a platform to talk about how much TM has meant to him over the years, his trip to India, Back in the USSR again (if necessary), how TM affected the group's dynamics and sound, the band's relationship with the Maharishi, etc. I think there's a lot of potential there...

[Jim V.]

You're barking up the wrong tree if you're trying to take personal shots at me to get a reaction, which is exactly what's playing out here. If you want commentary and opinions on the music, it's happening and will continue to happen in the discussion. If you want to air personal issues or grind axes, either do it off the board or don't bother at all.

What will not stand is this kind of post where you're preaching about what you think is or isn't appropriate to discuss here and trying to put whatever your personal beefs are against me or whoever/whatever else into this. It was bad enough what happened with Desper, so how about taking a deep cleansing/calming breath and sticking to what YOU want to discuss instead of trying to impugn what others want to post or discuss?

I suppose I will try to hope that discussion will return to the important stuff after this intermission, but I will say I think there is a conspiracy going on here. And trust me, if you saw the information I have on this, you might be wont to change your mind. Just sayin'...

[guitarfool2002]

Great points. See, the Redwood thing is relevant because it shows where Brian was at...this and Wild Honey marked the only time Brian went for a more edgy sound;  it's interesting to think about what would've happened had he got the support he needed.  Of course maybe we wouldn't have had gotten Friends,  and that would've sucked. ..

Not only edgy, especially with Brian's and Carl's more soul-infused and "belting" vocals, but also stripped down. And that's where a track like Redwood's Time To Get Alone really stands out. It seems Brian was still the same Brian with the same grand production ideas from 66-67, cutting large groups of musicians at Heider's #3 - again, an exact copy of his old favorite room Western 3 - and throwing in a lot of his more unique sounds and arranging ideas from the Smile era.

So he never abandoned those ideas, I think the push was on for the Beach Boys to be self-contained and start playing as a group again, studio and live. I cannot get out of my mind that the criticism the touring group had been receiving on those tours prior to summer '67 played into this decision and sudden shift in sound. They wanted to be able to play live what was on the records, and I think Hawaii was the demonstration of that. The arrangements were changed to allow a self-contained band to do what they did on stage in Hawaii, and the Wild Honey album that followed was even more of a return to a self-contained group cutting the tracks versus having additional musicians anywhere near the level of PS/Smile.

Friends is interesting because it seemed to strike a balance of all of these elements. There were more session players involved than on WH, yet the band was still primarily the band cutting the tracks in the studio. And the types of songs on Friends, as short of an album as it was, also strikes a balance between the "heavier" sound of WH, the PS/Smile blends, and some which were new for the band too. They tried stripped down R&B which was a little jarring for their audience to have come out of nowhere with WH, then they went for a more reasonable balance between the studio production of the past year and the self-contained studio band vibe.

But what a set like this will show - minus what fans already know with Redwood and the like - is that Brian never abandoned his studio ideas of 66/67.

He shifted those ideas and working methods, including the large groups of session players, to Redwood and went for the leaner sound with the BB's. And I still think a lot of that played into the band being able to reproduce the records on stage after getting criticism in 67 that they were not successfully doing so in the press.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

You're barking up the wrong tree if you're trying to take personal shots at me to get a reaction, which is exactly what's playing out here. If you want commentary and opinions on the music, it's happening and will continue to happen in the discussion. If you want to air personal issues or grind axes, either do it off the board or don't bother at all.

What will not stand is this kind of post where you're preaching about what you think is or isn't appropriate to discuss here and trying to put whatever your personal beefs are against me or whoever/whatever else into this. It was bad enough what happened with Desper, so how about taking a deep cleansing/calming breath and sticking to what YOU want to discuss instead of trying to impugn what others want to post or discuss?

I suppose I will try to hope that discussion will return to the important stuff after this intermission, but I will say I think there is a conspiracy going on here. And trust me, if you saw the information I have on this, you might be wont to change your mind. Just sayin'...

Conspiracy?  What are you even going on about? Nobody was taking shots at anybody until you started with it. As mentioned previously,  these posts were on topic because we were discussing things that were occurring during the time period in question. 

So yeah, let's see this "information " so we can drop the crap and get back on topic.

[Jim V.]

You're barking up the wrong tree if you're trying to take personal shots at me to get a reaction, which is exactly what's playing out here. If you want commentary and opinions on the music, it's happening and will continue to happen in the discussion. If you want to air personal issues or grind axes, either do it off the board or don't bother at all.

What will not stand is this kind of post where you're preaching about what you think is or isn't appropriate to discuss here and trying to put whatever your personal beefs are against me or whoever/whatever else into this. It was bad enough what happened with Desper, so how about taking a deep cleansing/calming breath and sticking to what YOU want to discuss instead of trying to impugn what others want to post or discuss?

I suppose I will try to hope that discussion will return to the important stuff after this intermission, but I will say I think there is a conspiracy going on here. And trust me, if you saw the information I have on this, you might be wont to change your mind. Just sayin'...

Conspiracy?  What are you even going on about? Nobody was taking shots at anybody until you started with it. As mentioned previously,  these posts were on topic because we were discussing things that were occurring during the time period in question. 

So yeah, let's see this "information " so we can drop the crap and get back on topic.

Ha, you called my bluff. I may or may not have been poking fun at a moderator of this board who sees everything as an underground plan to take him down and install Andrew G. Doe as President of all things Beach Boys.

I apologize for that. However, my point does still stand that, even as much as I detest so much about Mike Love and his greedy, Trump loving, insecure, jealous self, we could try to have this board not be a place to take potshots from the moderator all the time. As you just saw, I think there's a lot about the guy not to like. But I do think, and I think you know it too, that one of the moderators here does sure seem to take things a hell of a lot more personally than the other one, and also has apparently deemed himself Brian's online attack dog despite the fact that I don't think Brian needs one. And I'm done. If this gets me banned, so be it. I love this board, but I have noticed a pattern of unfairness from the one moderator and the quote about the Heider Redwood sessions just set me off.

Lastly, I do apologize for sticking this in the middle of the thread about this awesome release. Could we possibly move all offending posts between me, you and GF to the sandbox?

[MikestheGreatest!!]

Anyway, crossing my fingers that we'll get more in the future. I absolutely REALLY feel we'll get a Sunflower deluxe release, since that's widely regarded by critics and fans as a solid contender for arguably the best BB album after Pet Sounds. (Tears in the Morning excepted!)

Buy more than one copy! Get a gift for a BB nut or two!
[/quote]

Plan to do just that, buying several copies in fact!  However don't get the slam on Tears in the Morning?  Could you be more specific about what you don't like about the track?  To me it is one of the highlights of the disk.

[MikestheGreatest!!]

1. That many fans care about this (or any BBs) CD's chart is really puzzling. I don't understand what big importance there is if it's sitting at #97, #3, #12 etc.
2. Reply to CenturyDeprived - forgive me saying this but your point about 50th T-LB murder Anniversary is absolutely stupid. 1st, it's done deal & very ancient case. Then, generally, the hypersensitive attitude by some of you about Manson connection baffled me since I read related posts. Why do we care if 1) BBs didn't kill these celebs 2) they recorded NLNTL before the murders Edit: 3) BBs track differs from Manson's demo. Therefore, there shouldn't be even question or point made about 20/20 Anniversary coinciding with murders' 50 jubilee. So what if it does? It wouldn't do BBs reputation any bad.

The Manson Connection has probably helped the BBs reputation with certain types of folks!  Not saying that it should, but, it is almost always mentioned in media discussions of Dennis and the Boys circa this time period....

[BBs Footage Saga]

Plan to do just that, buying several copies in fact!  However don't get the slam on Tears in the Morning?  Could you be more specific about what you don't like about the track?  To me it is one of the highlights of the disk.

For me it´s a highligt also

[CenturyDeprived]

1. That many fans care about this (or any BBs) CD's chart is really puzzling. I don't understand what big importance there is if it's sitting at #97, #3, #12 etc.
2. Reply to CenturyDeprived - forgive me saying this but your point about 50th T-LB murder Anniversary is absolutely stupid. 1st, it's done deal & very ancient case. Then, generally, the hypersensitive attitude by some of you about Manson connection baffled me since I read related posts. Why do we care if 1) BBs didn't kill these celebs 2) they recorded NLNTL before the murders Edit: 3) BBs track differs from Manson's demo. Therefore, there shouldn't be even question or point made about 20/20 Anniversary coinciding with murders' 50 jubilee. So what if it does? It wouldn't do BBs reputation any bad.

Um... I don't think it's a stupid point to make. Firstly, it's not how *I* personally feel about it; the Manson murders are very tragic, and it's unfortunate that this band has any tangential association, but I don't let it affect my enjoyment of Denny's music from that era, including Never Learn, which I think is one of his best productions, and as I said before... criminally underappreciated by the band themselves (it's been on no official BB compilations or anything like that after almost 50 years), so I tend to think the band has historically avoided the song for a reason.

My only fear is that there are a bunch of people who might feel the need to trip out about the connection, and that Capitol might continue to avoid giving the track any type of attention due to the unfortunate tangential association. I agree that is a stupid thing to happen on all counts, but don't call the act of my merely mentioning it "stupid"; I'm just stating an unfortunate reality of the public perception by some people as well as probable related corporate fear. This is probably a thing that has been discussed behind the scenes by the powers that be before. I suppose I could simply put my head in the sand, FDP-style, and pretend that this is not the case. But that would be stupid. I'm just trying to be realistic.