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Author Topic: "(Wouldn't It Be Nice To) Live Again": opinions nearly four years after release  (Read 4946 times)
RangeRoverA1
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« Reply #75 on: May 17, 2017, 03:28:02 PM »

Whether it's in their minds or a placebo what does that matter if it works?

Besides, I think most practitioners of TM would agree that it is all in their minds and that is THE POINT.
You're right. Suppose I just don't like TM.
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« Reply #76 on: May 18, 2017, 02:55:42 PM »

Stephen: my sincere apologies for the very poor choice of phrase. I meant to be sympathetic to your situation as you've described it to us in the past, and to indicate that the group lost one of its greatest resources as a result. While there are many qualified engineers, you've amply demonstrated that you are a sound visionary and the match between you and the BBs is a one-of-a-kind-phenomenon.

It certainly would have been infinitely better had I used the other phrase that I had in mind while writing that post--"being forced out." I regret any connotation that would cause anyone to think that you "abandoned" your post. It's clear to me that many questionable decisions occurred in the fall/winter of '71-'72, and highly prominent among these was the capricious and arbitrary decision to make "lifestyle" and "spiritual" matters some kind of litmus test for employment...particularly in an area so crucial to artistic creativity. Your departure has always struck me as one of the most unfortunate events in the band's career.

I think all of us are glad that Mike was able to curb some of his tendencies as a result of TM (let's not forget BB employee Rick Nelson's rueful comment "Imagine if he'd never meditated...") but we can only shake our heads at his artistic limitations in not recognizing how seminal your contributions were during their greatest period of collective creativity.
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Stephen W. Desper
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« Reply #77 on: May 18, 2017, 05:35:00 PM »

Stephen: my sincere apologies for the very poor choice of phrase. I meant to be sympathetic to your situation as you've described it to us in the past, and to indicate that the group lost one of its greatest resources as a result. While there are many qualified engineers, you've amply demonstrated that you are a sound visionary and the match between you and the BBs is a one-of-a-kind-phenomenon.

It certainly would have been infinitely better had I used the other phrase that I had in mind while writing that post--"being forced out." I regret any connotation that would cause anyone to think that you "abandoned" your post. It's clear to me that many questionable decisions occurred in the fall/winter of '71-'72, and highly prominent among these was the capricious and arbitrary decision to make "lifestyle" and "spiritual" matters some kind of litmus test for employment...particularly in an area so crucial to artistic creativity. Your departure has always struck me as one of the most unfortunate events in the band's career.

I think all of us are glad that Mike was able to curb some of his tendencies as a result of TM (let's not forget BB employee Rick Nelson's rueful comment "Imagine if he'd never meditated...") but we can only shake our heads at his artistic limitations in not recognizing how seminal your contributions were during their greatest period of collective creativity.


COMMENT to Don Malcolm:  Thanks for your response and words of praise. Apology accepted. 

I don't feel I abandon my post, nor was I not forced out, or pushed overboard. The situation was presented, and I made my choice. There's a section in my book on this, in more detail. Again, no offence taken.

Had I stayed with them, I would not have gone on to form a company employing several hundred people in five countries centered around my patented invention. Nor would Carl have lost his personal manager to become my CFO and later CEO of the company I founded. Nor would I have contributed to two of Zappa's albums. So actually, in the end my financial picture greatly improved as well as being able to provide employment for many others.

There was some irony in the final numbers, in that Sail On Sailor was the only song of the album I did not go on to engineer that made any money. Although I never got credit, accept for Blondie's replacement of Carl's original solo, (which was recorded in LA upon returning from the Netherlands) the bulk of the song had already been recorded at Brian's Home Studio in LA before it was closed. So in the end, the huge production expense of producing Holland could have been avoided (and banked) by just releasing Sail On Sailor as a single. 
    ~swd
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« Reply #78 on: May 19, 2017, 02:56:56 AM »

Mr. Desper,
A person with your insight and talent would have done well no matter where you ended up, and although I miss your work with the Beach Boys, you clearly made lemonade from Mike's lemons.

Do you remember how much different Carl's vocal sounded? I think that Blondie sounds a lot like Carl on this song - in fact, for years I thought it was Carl singing. Once I learned it was not, I assumed that Blondie was imitating Carl's already recorded vocal.

You're right. Suppose I just don't like TM.

As an agnostic, I have no problem any time any religion is used to in a positive manner to guide ones actions while the follower of said religion maintains control and responsibility for their actions. It is when religion dictates your actions that it tends to get out of hand. TM is great if it did not dominate Mike's life, but there are very few interviews where it came up where it was necessary to discuss. That is when I find it annoying.
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Stephen W. Desper
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« Reply #79 on: May 19, 2017, 08:02:28 AM »

Mr. Desper,
A person with your insight and talent would have done well no matter where you ended up, and although I miss your work with the Beach Boys, you clearly made lemonade from Mike's lemons.

Do you remember how much different Carl's vocal sounded? I think that Blondie sounds a lot like Carl on this song - in fact, for years I thought it was Carl singing. Once I learned it was not, I assumed that Blondie was imitating Carl's already recorded vocal.

You're right. Suppose I just don't like TM.

As an agnostic, I have no problem any time any religion is used to in a positive manner to guide ones actions while the follower of said religion maintains control and responsibility for their actions. It is when religion dictates your actions that it tends to get out of hand. TM is great if it did not dominate Mike's life, but there are very few interviews where it came up where it was necessary to discuss. That is when I find it annoying.

COMMENT to Rick5150: Do you remember how much different Carl's vocal sounded? I don't need to remember, I have a copy of Carl singing SOS. It may well be the only surviving mix with Carl. I think that Blondie sounds a lot like Carl on this song - in fact, for years I thought it was Carl singing. If I compare the original solo to the replacement, all the intonation and phrasing sound very close. Once I learned it was not, I assumed that Blondie was imitating Carl's already recorded vocal. It certainly sounds that way with the exception that Carl's voice is sweeter. Since I wasn't there for the Blondie vocal recording I have often wondered why Carl wanted Blondie to replace the lead. Given that one mimics the other, perhaps it was Carl thinking about future stage performances rather than the studio recording -- maybe a vehicle to elevate Blondie more into the spotlight. He was always generous in that way and, after all, he had the spotlight on him often enough -- with his biggie, God Only Knows. So now, if you've ever seen Blondie perform SOS on stage, he's takes the song to a whole new level and brings it into the 21st century, making it one of the highlights of the show. ~swd
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« Reply #80 on: May 19, 2017, 08:12:35 AM »


COMMENT to Rick5150: Do you remember how much different Carl's vocal sounded? I don't need to remember, I have a copy of Carl singing SOS. It may well be the only surviving mix with Carl.  ~swd

I think I just heard about a hundred jaws hitting the floor. Mine included.  Smiley
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« Reply #81 on: May 19, 2017, 08:34:02 AM »

Has this Carl vocal for SOS ever been offered to BRI to use for release? I would have to imagine if BRI had a tape of that version in the vaults, it would have been included on "Made in California."
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« Reply #82 on: May 19, 2017, 11:25:42 AM »

Has this Carl vocal for SOS ever been offered to BRI to use for release? I would have to imagine if BRI had a tape of that version in the vaults, it would have been included on "Made in California."
COMMENT to HeyJude:  You've got it backward. Ever since it was recorded, Carl sang the lead. That's how the song existed and how we all lived and heard it for months or even years, until it was re-visited after their return from the Netherlands. I have no idea if BRI kept the original track with Carl singing lead or just replaced the lead track for release. First time I heard it was when I got my copy of Holland. For me, I always knew the song with Carl's lead.  But everyone else knows the song with Blondie's lead.  It's like Til I Die. I was there from day one and onward as the song was developed right up until the day Carl and I were going to make the final mix. Then Brian charged into the Control Room and insisted on recording a new lyric -- the one you now hear. There were no tracks left to preserve the original words he sang which I, frankly, thought were better, but that's how it goes sometimes. I mean we lived with those old lyrics for months and months -- then they were gone. As I've always said, I've erased more Beach Boy vocals then you've ever heard.   ~swd
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« Reply #83 on: May 19, 2017, 11:49:11 AM »

Has this Carl vocal for SOS ever been offered to BRI to use for release? I would have to imagine if BRI had a tape of that version in the vaults, it would have been included on "Made in California."
COMMENT to HeyJude:  You've got it backward. Ever since it was recorded, Carl sang the lead. That's how the song existed and how we all lived and heard it for months or even years, until it was re-visited after their return from the Netherlands. I have no idea if BRI kept the original track with Carl singing lead or just replaced the lead track for release. First time I heard it was when I got my copy of Holland. For me, I always knew the song with Carl's lead.  But everyone else knows the song with Blondie's lead.  It's like Til I Die. I was there from day one and onward as the song was developed right up until the day Carl and I were going to make the final mix. Then Brian charged into the Control Room and insisted on recording a new lyric -- the one you now hear. There were no tracks left to preserve the original words he sang which I, frankly, thought were better, but that's how it goes sometimes. I mean we lived with those old lyrics for months and months -- then they were gone. As I've always said, I've erased more Beach Boy vocals then you've ever heard.   ~swd

I wasn't speaking at all to the history of the song. I'm just looking at the most basic aspect of what exists, what has been released, and what *could* be released:

We have presently the released version with Blondie singing, and you've mentioned there exists a tape of a version with Carl singing. I sense perhaps BRI would have released such an intriguing track on previous archival releases if they had the tape. So I'm just curious, in the event that a tape with Carl's lead doesn't exist in BRI's vaults, if they have contacted you about using your tape, and/or if you have contacted them to let them know you have the tape.

From the fan perspective, having a vintage recording of Carl singing "Sail on Sailor" is, loosely, analogous to finding a tape of Lennon and McCartney singing the lead to "With a Little Help From My Friends", or finding a tape of Dennis singing "I Just Wasn't Made For These Times", or Brian singing "Guess I'm Dumb", etc.
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« Reply #84 on: May 19, 2017, 02:57:38 PM »

Has this Carl vocal for SOS ever been offered to BRI to use for release? I would have to imagine if BRI had a tape of that version in the vaults, it would have been included on "Made in California."
COMMENT to HeyJude:  You've got it backward. Ever since it was recorded, Carl sang the lead. That's how the song existed and how we all lived and heard it for months or even years, until it was re-visited after their return from the Netherlands. I have no idea if BRI kept the original track with Carl singing lead or just replaced the lead track for release. First time I heard it was when I got my copy of Holland. For me, I always knew the song with Carl's lead.  But everyone else knows the song with Blondie's lead.  It's like Til I Die. I was there from day one and onward as the song was developed right up until the day Carl and I were going to make the final mix. Then Brian charged into the Control Room and insisted on recording a new lyric -- the one you now hear. There were no tracks left to preserve the original words he sang which I, frankly, thought were better, but that's how it goes sometimes. I mean we lived with those old lyrics for months and months -- then they were gone. As I've always said, I've erased more Beach Boy vocals then you've ever heard.   ~swd

I wasn't speaking at all to the history of the song. I'm just looking at the most basic aspect of what exists, what has been released, and what *could* be released:

We have presently the released version with Blondie singing, and you've mentioned there exists a tape of a version with Carl singing. I sense perhaps BRI would have released such an intriguing track on previous archival releases if they had the tape. So I'm just curious, in the event that a tape with Carl's lead doesn't exist in BRI's vaults, if they have contacted you about using your tape, and/or if you have contacted them to let them know you have the tape.

From the fan perspective, having a vintage recording of Carl singing "Sail on Sailor" is, loosely, analogous to finding a tape of Lennon and McCartney singing the lead to "With a Little Help From My Friends", or finding a tape of Dennis singing "I Just Wasn't Made For These Times", or Brian singing "Guess I'm Dumb", etc.

COMMENT to HeyJude:  The reason I said that you had it backward is that SOS was originally sung by Carl. I just played my copy. It's part of a collection of acappella versions of songs I made for a mixing study. I was a road mixer too. But McCantney wasn't the original lead on WALHFMF. (was he?). If you found a recording as you said, it would be after the fact. Carl's original lead is before the fact. See???  It's backward. The order is reversed. And I meant that as a comment on the situation, not a judgement of your comment.  Having engineered SOS with Carl singing lead, I always heard the song that way . . . then when it comes out, Blondie is singing the lead. This is, for me, kind of a mind fu-k. To everyone else it's normal, but for me Carl's lead is normal and Blondie's lead is irregular. That's all I was saying.  I have no control over what BRI releases or chooses to not release. Maybe they have SOS with Carl's lead, but feel it would confuse or take away from Blondie's version -- I've heard that excuse before. Back to the original song-topic WIBNTLA. Same thing there. What was released is not way Dennis and I heard the song when he was developing it. I'm not saying it's wrong, but it's not the same way -- but there is no guide since Dennis is gone and BRI never contacts me for my opinion. However if you stay tuned long enough, you can read about this in the second part of my book when it finally gets published.  ~swd
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« Reply #85 on: May 22, 2017, 09:58:41 PM »

Has this Carl vocal for SOS ever been offered to BRI to use for release? I would have to imagine if BRI had a tape of that version in the vaults, it would have been included on "Made in California."
COMMENT to HeyJude:  You've got it backward. Ever since it was recorded, Carl sang the lead. That's how the song existed and how we all lived and heard it for months or even years, until it was re-visited after their return from the Netherlands. I have no idea if BRI kept the original track with Carl singing lead or just replaced the lead track for release. First time I heard it was when I got my copy of Holland. For me, I always knew the song with Carl's lead.  But everyone else knows the song with Blondie's lead.  It's like Til I Die. I was there from day one and onward as the song was developed right up until the day Carl and I were going to make the final mix. Then Brian charged into the Control Room and insisted on recording a new lyric -- the one you now hear. There were no tracks left to preserve the original words he sang which I, frankly, thought were better, but that's how it goes sometimes. I mean we lived with those old lyrics for months and months -- then they were gone. As I've always said, I've erased more Beach Boy vocals then you've ever heard.  ~swd

I wasn't speaking at all to the history of the song. I'm just looking at the most basic aspect of what exists, what has been released, and what *could* be released:

We have presently the released version with Blondie singing, and you've mentioned there exists a tape of a version with Carl singing. I sense perhaps BRI would have released such an intriguing track on previous archival releases if they had the tape. So I'm just curious, in the event that a tape with Carl's lead doesn't exist in BRI's vaults, if they have contacted you about using your tape, and/or if you have contacted them to let them know you have the tape.

From the fan perspective, having a vintage recording of Carl singing "Sail on Sailor" is, loosely, analogous to finding a tape of Lennon and McCartney singing the lead to "With a Little Help From My Friends", or finding a tape of Dennis singing "I Just Wasn't Made For These Times", or Brian singing "Guess I'm Dumb", etc.

COMMENT to HeyJude:  The reason I said that you had it backward is that SOS was originally sung by Carl. I just played my copy. It's part of a collection of acappella versions of songs I made for a mixing study. I was a road mixer too. But McCantney wasn't the original lead on WALHFMF. (was he?). If you found a recording as you said, it would be after the fact. Carl's original lead is before the fact. See???  It's backward. The order is reversed. And I meant that as a comment on the situation, not a judgement of your comment.  Having engineered SOS with Carl singing lead, I always heard the song that way . . . then when it comes out, Blondie is singing the lead. This is, for me, kind of a mind fu-k. To everyone else it's normal, but for me Carl's lead is normal and Blondie's lead is irregular. That's all I was saying.  I have no control over what BRI releases or chooses to not release. Maybe they have SOS with Carl's lead, but feel it would confuse or take away from Blondie's version -- I've heard that excuse before. Back to the original song-topic WIBNTLA. Same thing there. What was released is not way Dennis and I heard the song when he was developing it. I'm not saying it's wrong, but it's not the same way -- but there is no guide since Dennis is gone and BRI never contacts me for my opinion. However if you stay tuned long enough, you can read about this in the second part of my book when it finally gets published.  ~swd

Hi Stephen. As HJ asked, have you ever considered informing BRI that you have possibly the only extant recording of the original version, and offering it to them for potential inclusion on a future anthology (subject to band approval of course)? Perhaps you wouldn't feel comfortable doing so, or would want to be approached by them first.
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« Reply #86 on: May 29, 2017, 09:26:14 AM »

I missed all the expectation before it got eventually released, perhaps this makes me someone in a small group of folks.

It is a good, pleasant song. It is not the Greatest and Sadly Unreleased Dennis track ever, but then: I didn't know what I was in for in the first place.

I will play it many times again.

And it is just as fine as any Dennis track on Friends, 20/20, Holland, and Pacific Ocean Blue (thought the latter has a few that I would rate above WIBNTLA (Moonshine and the title track, notably).
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