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Author Topic: Aren't You Glad (2017 Stereo Mix) up on youtube!  (Read 8131 times)
ForHerCryingSoul
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« Reply #75 on: June 26, 2017, 10:07:05 PM »

I don't believe I've logged onto this message board in literally over ten years...

and I've come all the way back so I could find this thread and ask if anyone else is bothered that the piano in this stereo mix doesn't fade for the last measure of the intro like it does in the mono mix.

I'll post again in 2028. Be good, everyone; glad you're all well.
Please, come back whenever the urge to post arises!  It is definitely jarring that the instruments in the stereo intro don't fade out, leaving the horn and the organ to finish it off.  I liked how the horn carried on by itself, it was a good mixing choice.
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« Reply #76 on: June 27, 2017, 01:19:54 AM »

I don't believe I've logged onto this message board in literally over ten years...

and I've come all the way back so I could find this thread and ask if anyone else is bothered that the piano in this stereo mix doesn't fade for the last measure of the intro like it does in the mono mix.

I'll post again in 2028. Be good, everyone; glad you're all well.

You are absolutely right. Better with the fade.
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« Reply #77 on: June 27, 2017, 02:21:04 AM »

As a response to the few minor criticisms voiced above...

Surely the immense labour of love that is Sunshine Tomorrow is first and foremost intended to open up the mono Wild Honey, to make audible what isn't audible (or is less audible) in the original. (Just like the later stereo versions of Pet Sounds.) Which is the main reason I'm buying it----along with the fantastic sound quality, if "AYG" is anything to go by. 

That said, the original mono versions of both WH and PS will always be definitive in my book. These stereo mixes give a fascinating wide-screen view of their constituent parts but they can never replace the originals. Or am I stating the obvious?
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Matt Bielewicz
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« Reply #78 on: June 27, 2017, 03:16:25 AM »

I agree absolutely, and you're right that we still have the mono whatever happens, so it sort of doesn't matter... but at the same time, it bugs me slightly that there are tiny differences like this between the mono and stereo mixes. I mean, if you're GOING for a different sounding mix in 2017, it doesn't matter, but according to Howie Edelson, they were trying for something that was as close as possible to the mono mix (like Giles Martin and the 2017 Sgt. Pepper mix, right?)

That mixing touch in the original mono, of dropping out most of the instruments just before the verse kicks in, leaving just the horn, bass drum and the organ playing, is a great flourish that leads beautifully into the verse. If the alleged aim was to reproduce the mono mix as closely as possible, why doesn't the stereo mix do that too?

It's a nice touch created by Brian (I would guess) solely at the mixing stage. Clearly, the intro wasn't recorded like that on the tape; as we can hear on the stereo mix, the guitar actually kept playing... but at the mono mixdown, it was dropped out for four beats to lead into the verse with more of a dynamic contrast. It's an example of arrangement — or REarrangement — at the mixing stage, which is commonplace today... but Brian was really leading the pack with this sort of stuff in the mid-to-late 60s. Wind Chimes on Smiley Smile is another great example, as is the SMiLE version of Vega-Tables. Probably the best-known example is the 'accapella section' in Sloop John B. The backing track instruments actually continued playing through that part on the original tape, and the Boys just carried on singing over that section as they did on the rest of the track... but Brian took the mixing decision to highlight just how great their singing was at that time, and on that section, by dropping out the instrumental backing during mixing to create the accapella section. So the mix shapes and becomes part of the arrangement. It was groundbreaking stuff in its day, absolutely part of that whole 'the studio is an instrument' thing that Brian helped to pioneer.

Now, of course, it sounds like I'm nit-picking and whining. I'm not. I will be at the door of my local record store when it opens on Friday to buy this when it comes out (I have to be, because they're only stocking one copy!). I will be buying extra copies for friends. I am FANTASTICALLY grateful that the powers that be are mining the BB catalogue like this and getting a stereo mix of this album out there. It doesn't have to happen, and if no-one was pushing, it wouldn't.

But my point here remains a valid one. The example of this kind of technical approach to arrangement by mixing on the intro of Aren't You Glad is much more subtle, and much less of a big deal than on the accapella section of Sloop John B. But you wouldn't make a stereo mix of Sloop John B and leave the backing playing through the accapella section when it's such a feature of the song in the original mono mix (and indeed, they *didn't* do that for the 1996 stereo mix). So why treat Aren't You Glad differently? Why make a stereo mix where the idea is to mimic the mono as closely as possible... and then not reproduce the mono as closely as possible, deft little flourishes like this and all?

UNLESS, of course... there's a technical reason. And there might be. Could be that the separate tracks available to create that intro when the mono mix was made are no longer available in 2017. That might mean that dropping out the guitar would have also dropped out, say, the horn. And I seem to recall that Aren't You Glad IS one of the tracks for which the original multitrack is no longer around, or at least not accessible...

It could also be that the instruments are still on separate tracks, but that a 'deconstructed' intro like the one created during the mix for the original mono record just doesn't sound so good in stereo. Sometimes when you do that, it sounds OK in mono and you get away with it, but muting the tracks in stereo sounds too obviously like... you muted the tracks to create that intro. You can sometimes hear that you've muted a track more obviously in stereo. So perhaps they changed it for the stereo mix and left everything playing for that reason...?
« Last Edit: June 27, 2017, 03:28:33 AM by Matt Bielewicz » Logged
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« Reply #79 on: June 27, 2017, 03:58:32 AM »

UNLESS, of course... there's a technical reason. And there might be. Could be that the separate tracks available to create that intro when the mono mix was made are no longer available in 2017. That might mean that dropping out the guitar would have also dropped out, say, the horn. And I seem to recall that Aren't You Glad IS one of the tracks for which the original multitrack is no longer around, or at least not accessible...

It could also be that the instruments are still on separate tracks, but that a 'deconstructed' intro like the one created during the mix for the original mono record just doesn't sound so good in stereo. Sometimes when you do that, it sounds OK in mono and you get away with it, but muting the tracks in stereo sounds too obviously like... you muted the tracks to create that intro. You can sometimes hear that you've muted a track more obviously in stereo. So perhaps they changed it for the stereo mix and left everything playing for that reason...?

It's highly plausible that it was done for one of these two reasons. Time will tell. Thanks for a great post!
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« Reply #80 on: June 27, 2017, 07:33:10 AM »

I agree absolutely, and you're right that we still have the mono whatever happens, so it sort of doesn't matter... but at the same time, it bugs me slightly that there are tiny differences like this between the mono and stereo mixes. I mean, if you're GOING for a different sounding mix in 2017, it doesn't matter, but according to Howie Edelson, they were trying for something that was as close as possible to the mono mix (like Giles Martin and the 2017 Sgt. Pepper mix, right?)

That mixing touch in the original mono, of dropping out most of the instruments just before the verse kicks in, leaving just the horn, bass drum and the organ playing, is a great flourish that leads beautifully into the verse. If the alleged aim was to reproduce the mono mix as closely as possible, why doesn't the stereo mix do that too?

It's a nice touch created by Brian (I would guess) solely at the mixing stage. Clearly, the intro wasn't recorded like that on the tape; as we can hear on the stereo mix, the guitar actually kept playing... but at the mono mixdown, it was dropped out for four beats to lead into the verse with more of a dynamic contrast. It's an example of arrangement — or REarrangement — at the mixing stage, which is commonplace today... but Brian was really leading the pack with this sort of stuff in the mid-to-late 60s. Wind Chimes on Smiley Smile is another great example, as is the SMiLE version of Vega-Tables. Probably the best-known example is the 'accapella section' in Sloop John B. The backing track instruments actually continued playing through that part on the original tape, and the Boys just carried on singing over that section as they did on the rest of the track... but Brian took the mixing decision to highlight just how great their singing was at that time, and on that section, by dropping out the instrumental backing during mixing to create the accapella section. So the mix shapes and becomes part of the arrangement. It was groundbreaking stuff in its day, absolutely part of that whole 'the studio is an instrument' thing that Brian helped to pioneer.

Now, of course, it sounds like I'm nit-picking and whining. I'm not. I will be at the door of my local record store when it opens on Friday to buy this when it comes out (I have to be, because they're only stocking one copy!). I will be buying extra copies for friends. I am FANTASTICALLY grateful that the powers that be are mining the BB catalogue like this and getting a stereo mix of this album out there. It doesn't have to happen, and if no-one was pushing, it wouldn't.

But my point here remains a valid one. The example of this kind of technical approach to arrangement by mixing on the intro of Aren't You Glad is much more subtle, and much less of a big deal than on the accapella section of Sloop John B. But you wouldn't make a stereo mix of Sloop John B and leave the backing playing through the accapella section when it's such a feature of the song in the original mono mix (and indeed, they *didn't* do that for the 1996 stereo mix). So why treat Aren't You Glad differently? Why make a stereo mix where the idea is to mimic the mono as closely as possible... and then not reproduce the mono as closely as possible, deft little flourishes like this and all?

UNLESS, of course... there's a technical reason. And there might be. Could be that the separate tracks available to create that intro when the mono mix was made are no longer available in 2017. That might mean that dropping out the guitar would have also dropped out, say, the horn. And I seem to recall that Aren't You Glad IS one of the tracks for which the original multitrack is no longer around, or at least not accessible...

It could also be that the instruments are still on separate tracks, but that a 'deconstructed' intro like the one created during the mix for the original mono record just doesn't sound so good in stereo. Sometimes when you do that, it sounds OK in mono and you get away with it, but muting the tracks in stereo sounds too obviously like... you muted the tracks to create that intro. You can sometimes hear that you've muted a track more obviously in stereo. So perhaps they changed it for the stereo mix and left everything playing for that reason...?

Weren't there also some minor liberties taken with the stereo mix of In the Back of My Mind?  I seem to recall the song fading out earlier on the original mono version,  compared to a slightly extended fade with some reverb added at the very end on the stereo version. 

I love those little touches that they made to the stereo version of that particular song, but I totally get it that some people are put off by little changes.
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« Reply #81 on: June 27, 2017, 08:35:36 AM »

Wow that is fabulous... that WH-era organ sound is in there, never noticed before.
I hope Michael Buble keeps his hands off it though...  Razz

Please avoid quoting this post of mine when replying.

I'm very confused as to what the second line means. Might somebody be very obliging and offer me some clarification? I'd Appreciate any fellow member clearing up what the last line of the post means. Thanks Smiley
« Last Edit: June 27, 2017, 08:39:07 AM by PetSmile » Logged

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« Reply #82 on: June 27, 2017, 08:47:34 AM »

I can understand how it can be jarring to not hear certain elements, but to me it's a case of the nature of mixing in the 60's on 4- and 8-track without automation and recall available in the technology of that era, along with the necessity of bouncing tracks and locking in elements of the mix in order to free up additional tracks and space. Not to mention having to do certain things literally "on the fly" during the mixdowns. Mixing was a performance back then, it was done live and apart from making notes on what was done, you couldn't go back later and replicate it exactly. Today it's a simple case of hitting the "save" icon and all the fader moves and whatnot come back instantly.

There are elements of those final mixes from the 60's era (and beyond) that cannot be duplicated or replicated, so kudos to the efforts in trying to create a stereo mix where there was no stereo mix prior, using whatever raw tracks are available on the master reels, and trying to capture the texture and the feel of the original mixes in modern projects and reissues.

Beyond all those limitations, there is a fundamental difference between the textures of a stereo versus a mono mix and a different mindset from the beginning of the process that goes into creating them.

I kind of like the notion of using what is available on the masters versus using digital technology to copy and paste then fly in elements from other sections to create fantasy "original" versions if there are gaps in the master tracks. It's like Lucas using CGI to create visuals that weren't in the original Star Wars decades after the fact. Fortunately that doesn't happen too often in archival reissues with classic albums.
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« Reply #83 on: June 27, 2017, 09:50:14 AM »

Thanks for sharing your thoughts in your post, Matt. I find most of your points well-expressed and agreeable.

It could also be that the instruments are still on separate tracks, but that a 'deconstructed' intro like the one created during the mix for the original mono record just doesn't sound so good in stereo. Sometimes when you do that, it sounds OK in mono and you get away with it, but muting the tracks in stereo sounds too obviously like... you muted the tracks to create that intro. You can sometimes hear that you've muted a track more obviously in stereo. So perhaps they changed it for the stereo mix and left everything playing for that reason...?

And this seems to be the most "acceptable" reason to me if the change was indeed deliberate.

But if it wasn't intentional, it seems like neglect/an oversight in the remix process. And it seems like the faded out piano in the intro was possible to execute because that piano part *is* correctly muted when the cycle of the song repeats after the chorus/before the second verse on the new mix (well... actually the piano fades back in on the second beat of the first measure of the second verse in the mono mix but it starts on the first beat in the new stereo mix).

I realize I'm one person with their own subjective opinion on the internet and am no authority on the matter. I have the maturity of a ten year old when it comes to dealing with differing music mixing decisions—even when the piano came in on the stereo mix of the Smiley Smiley version of Wonderful irked me lol.

Aren't I glad that these new mixes exist? Yes!

[/pedantry]
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« Reply #84 on: June 27, 2017, 10:32:26 AM »

I love picking this stuff apart as much as anybody, truly.

But we've seen a ton of BB stuff remixed into stereo, and it almost *always* has little anomalies that are different; extra overdubs, missing overdubs, things previously muted that now aren't, and so on. Sometimes it's due to the extant tapes available, and sometimes it's a mixing decision.

I'm not sure how much the WH stereo remix was really done with the vague Sgt.  Pepper/Giles Martin ethos of making the stereo mix "match" the mono mix, but to the degree this is the case, there are limitations to this. First and foremost, saying the stereo mix is faithful to the mono mix is partially a contradiction at its core. It *has* to sound different. With "Pepper", the only way in which I hear the stereo mix remaining faithful to the mono is matching the speed on "She's Leaving Home" and trying to match the phasing/flanging on some of the vocals, and things like that. But the stereo remix is a totally different animal.

I'm probably overly-concerned that BRI or Capitol will see the most nitpicky of nitpicks like these stray piano stabs on "Aren't You Glad" and think the hardcore fans will just never be pleased. But I have that concern nonetheless.

The stereo mix *should* be different, and if a few stray things are missing or there for the first time, I think it's a fun element of hearing the new mix. If you want the original, the mono is always there.

I've criticized plenty of mix-ups in the past (the wrong mixes on the 2000 BW '88 CD for instance), but I'm not going to *assume* the guys mixing WH into stereo just forgot to mute the piano. Enough ears have been on this thing, I would go ahead an lean towards this being a decision. Maybe Brian was in on the stereo remix and made that call. Who knows? It's an alternate way to hear the album, so I don't need it to be as precisely identical to the mono as possible.
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« Reply #85 on: June 27, 2017, 11:59:31 AM »

Take note of Jim Lockert's comments regarding how both Smiley and WH were mixed, and consider again what kind of technology and limitations they had to work with at this time and how these specific albums were given their final mono mixes in 67. When reduction mixes were done as standard practice in order to free up more tracks for overdubbing and additions, whether in the tracking process or in the mixdown process, anything that was done to the tracks is permanently locked into the overall mix. If there was a certain amount of echo added, if there was a fade, if anything was changed prior to the reduction mix and bounce, it got burned onto the tape and cannot be changed.

Not saying that applies specifically to this intro or mute or anything else specific to this track, but that is one of the most basic factors to consider when you're dealing with 50 year old tapes and mixdowns. It's a huge credit to the work of experts like Mark who do this regularly and do it so well that many if not most of these remix projects are beholden to however things were done 50 years ago, and the luxury we've had for the past 40 years or so of having enough tracks to where bounces and reductions weren't necessary and all tracks had their own individual channels and tracks on the tape to isolate and move around at will did not exist in 1966-67 and before.
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« Reply #86 on: June 29, 2017, 01:50:14 PM »

I'm surprised not too many hear it! I'd bet money that it's BW. Stuck out to me like a sore thumb first time I listened to the remix.

Food for thought (and though it doesn't prove anything): if it's Carl singing the chorus, why didn't he reprise it in live performances?

I've been listening to this often lately, and I think I'm leaning more toward Brian now. It took a bit of "everything you know is wrong"-style thinking to get into the concept though.

A couple things opened up my mind to this possiblity -

1 - it DOES sound slowed-down, whoever it is.

2 - just listened to the Lei'd in Hawaii "You're So Good to Me", and BW is wailing man. Sounds like a precurser to his '70s lounge style. That is to say, Brian and the group were experimenting with singing styles.

3 - recently discovered the old thread about Dennis' lead vocal being present on "I Just Wasn't Made for These Times" - both the released version, the vocals-only mix, and the alternate version on the Pet Sounds box. MY MIND HAS BEEN OPENED. The Beach Boys will never stop amazing us.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2017, 01:53:53 PM by DonnyL » Logged

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« Reply #87 on: June 29, 2017, 08:51:47 PM »

Sunshine Tomorrow is up on Apple Music, (presumably iTunes as well).  Sounds fantastic!
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« Reply #88 on: June 29, 2017, 09:47:06 PM »

Sunshine Tomorrow is up on Apple Music, (presumably iTunes as well).  Sounds fantastic!

Can’t wait to delve into this tomorrow. But I had to sample a little before I turned in, the final track ‘Surfer Girl’ a cappella is jaw dropping. This set is gonna be great!
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« Reply #89 on: June 29, 2017, 10:03:08 PM »

Judging by a first listen of the tracking session/backing track for "Aren't You Glad", the backing track was recorded in a higher key/ faster tempo and was slowed down for the vocal overdubs...so maybe that chorus vocal in question was just recorded before they decided to slow it down?  Just a thought.  I'll have to listen to it more in depth once I have my physical copy.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2017, 10:05:23 PM by Ebb and Flow » Logged
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« Reply #90 on: June 30, 2017, 01:35:34 AM »

I hope Michael Buble keeps his hands off it though...  Razz

@PS: I think Mr. Wilson is referring to Michael Bublé's habit of giving other people's songs the smooth-as-velvet treatment. It's not to everyone's taste although clearly some people like it (over 55 million albums sold!). Whatever, I wish his son the speediest of recoveries... 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Bublé
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