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Author Topic: Mike's Hand in Vocal Arrangements  (Read 26193 times)
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« Reply #75 on: February 24, 2017, 09:10:56 AM »

I'll put on the table and clarify another point that shapes my opinions and comments on this, and what Carl said specifically in that article.

Either you agree or disagree with the Wouldn't It Be Nice ruling that awarded Mike equal 1/3 credit on any future listings and credits for the song. I strongly disagree that a "good night baby, sleep tight baby" vocal phrase ad-libbed over the last 10-15 seconds of the recording/song are worthy of shared equal credit with Tony Asher and Brian Wilson. There is the first 95% or so of the song which has already been heard before that contribution even becomes a part of the greater whole. Yet, somehow, this contribution from Mike got argued successfully to where a court judged that one phrase at the close of the record equaled the other 95% contributions from the two actual songwriters. We'll leave out for now the other arguments about clandestine phone calls during studio bathroom breaks and the like.

So there was the argument "the court hath declared...", therefore you have all current and future credits giving three writers equal billing and credit even though two of the three did the lionshare of that writing, lyrics and music, and the other ad-libbed what amounts to ten seconds or so of a fadeout that was judged as essential as everything else.

So my mindset flashes forward to that precedent, and all possibilities of sometime in the future if and when similar credit *could* be taken to court. And if a court sees evidence introduced like Carl's early 80's comments about Mike's contributions to the arrangements, there could very well be another case where common sense and logic regarding the process of writing and recording a song, adding producing and arranging that song where credits are concerned, get thrown out the window if some legal magic could convince a court that the credits must be changed or amended to include any similar contributions in the process.

It's about precedent. If the standard of WIBN and that equal three-way credit is applied, we'll see credits like (in my opinion) WIBN that are not fair nor true to the history. If a case could be won that "good night baby" is equal to the whole of WIBN, what other cases could that same argument be applied, whether it's accurate or not? I (my opinion) do not think it serves anything to go down that road.

Again on the precedent, I mention again how at some point why couldn't Ringo Starr go to a court and stake a greater claim and credit for "A Hard Day's Night", both for the hit film and hit single and album that generated millions in revenue? Ringo coined the phrase that became the title song of a hit film with related hit soundtrack album and a now-iconic single. I'd argue Ringo if it were ever pursued would have a stronger case for valuing and weighing his contribution to "A Hard Day's Night" than Mike was able to win the case over an ad-lib at the fadeout coda of WIBN.

I don't see Ringo doing anything like that anytime soon. With the Beach Boys, however, the precedent was already set back in 92-94, and in that specific case, at least to me it defies all logic to credit or even seek and own credit based on that standard.
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« Reply #76 on: February 24, 2017, 09:39:03 AM »

Craig, I certainly cast no aspersions on the content in your post. And I am in no way trying to defend those who dump on Mike personally at the slightest provocation. I do think that given how much we know about the fraught circumstances that exist(ed) here, in large part over Mike, that there are ways to mitigate the type of response that is unfortunately all too likely to occur. It's not good that one has to think in those terms before posting, and it might not have been that way 5-6-10 years ago, but given the events of 2012 and the debilitating effect on this board and the subsequent "schism", it does seem that we have to keep all this in mind when starting threads, particularly one with Mike's name in them...

More concrete evidence and additional detail is always better, regardless of the context, and I for one wonder if an original post by you with even, say, ten examples (ten songs) of this type of arrangement motif where Mike was demonstrating both proficiency and value-added creativity had been present, then the level of snark would have been minimized.

I think we should take another crack at addressing this further, as was being done by a majority of posters. But I also think we should look for any patterns in this aspect of the music--meaning by that, did the songwriting/vocal arranging change so that Mike's role in creating bass-line motifs became more/less frequent, less or more prominent in the arrangement? There would be a lot to evaluate if these nuances could be laid out more explicitly for the reader...and something more systematic might yet emerge from such an exercise.

As for GF's recent post, it covers a lot of good territory about actual song credits, and I find the arguments in that area convincing. But our subject here is more akin to Mike's interjection of "Pa-pa-pa-pa oo-mow-mow" into "Got to Know the Woman"--where the songwriting credit remains "Dennis Wilson" and not "Dennis Wilson-Mike Love." The slope became more slippery as a result of the Mike v. Brian litigation, and we can see that something like the above example would be even more egregious were a claim to be made...you would be moving toward the logical fallacy that everyone who sung on the song should be given songwriting credit.
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« Reply #77 on: February 24, 2017, 11:19:27 AM »

It's also certainly worth noting that Mike has more of an "ear" for harmony than it may seem. That is, I wouldn't say he was exclusively some drone repeating stuff Brian was giving him (and even if that were the case, what all the BBs were doing on those harmonies was *still* amazing and difficult).

One of the most telling moments about Mike's innate sense of musicality and harmony is that 1976 in-studio Brian demo tape, the one where he's demonstrating a bunch of Adult Child/Love You songs. Three moments stick out that show Mike had the ability to recognize harmonies and interesting chord changes, unfettered by his nose for something "commercial" or "catchy" or a novelty bit of some sort.

In one instance, you can hear him briefly join in on a second harmony with Brian singing "Let's Put Our Hearts Together." Simple and very brief, but interesting to hear Mike do a nice two-part harmony on a song he's (presumably) singing for the first time.

In another instance, after Brian demos "Airplane", Mike seems *enamored* with the song and even jokingly demands to get the lead and says he'll quit the group if Brian doesn't give him that lead.

Also, his (and perhaps someone else's) reaction/cheering as Brian gets to the bridge of "I'll Bet He's Nice" is one of the more heartening moments of the band realizing Brian's talent actually being caught on tape.

Also on the tape, after one of the songs (I'm blanking on which one, maybe still "I'll Be He's Nice"?) Mike utters his famous "that one's a motherf***er" or something along those lines. (This quote ended up on some bootleg pasted onto the end of "Carry Me Home", but it comes from the '76 demo tape).

All small moments. But Mike had an ear for what was good, and an ear for ear-catching chord changes and melodies and all of that. Maybe it's still there, but it was usually bogged down for most of his career by his other aspirations and motivations and sensibilities.
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« Reply #78 on: February 24, 2017, 11:26:05 AM »

For the life of me, I can't figure out what is so hard about this. C-man sited two "vocalizations" that Carl gave as examples of parts that Mike contributed to, and asked us to help identify. It has nothing to do with who owns or deserves a legal "arrangement" credit.

I hope you don't go, c-man. On behalf of the more rational side of the board, I apologize.
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« Reply #79 on: February 24, 2017, 11:38:04 AM »

It's also certainly worth noting that Mike has more of an "ear" for harmony than it may seem. That is, I wouldn't say he was exclusively some drone repeating stuff Brian was giving him (and even if that were the case, what all the BBs were doing on those harmonies was *still* amazing and difficult).

One of the most telling moments about Mike's innate sense of musicality and harmony is that 1976 in-studio Brian demo tape, the one where he's demonstrating a bunch of Adult Child/Love You songs. Three moments stick out that show Mike had the ability to recognize harmonies and interesting chord changes, unfettered by his nose for something "commercial" or "catchy" or a novelty bit of some sort.

In one instance, you can hear him briefly join in on a second harmony with Brian singing "Let's Put Our Hearts Together." Simple and very brief, but interesting to hear Mike do a nice two-part harmony on a song he's (presumably) singing for the first time.

In another instance, after Brian demos "Airplane", Mike seems *enamored* with the song and even jokingly demands to get the lead and says he'll quit the group if Brian doesn't give him that lead.

Also, his (and perhaps someone else's) as Brian gets to the bridge of "I'll Bet He's Nice" is one of the more heartening moments of the band realizing Brian's talent actually being caught on tape.

Also on the tape, after one of the songs (I'm blanking on which one, maybe still "I'll Be He's Nice"?) Mike utters his famous "that one's a motherf***er" or something along those lines. (This quote ended up on some bootleg pasted onto the end of "Carry Me Home", but it comes from the '76 demo tape).

All small moments. But Mike had an ear for what was good, and an ear for ear-catching chord changes and melodies and all of that. Maybe it's still there, but it was usually bogged down for most of is career by his other aspirations and motivations and sensibilities.

Great post, and that Love You demo tape is one of my favorites.
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« Reply #80 on: February 24, 2017, 11:41:48 AM »

Brian's somewhat "broken" voice on that "I'll Bet He's Nice" gives the song kind of extra "depth" to it, if that makes sense.
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« Reply #81 on: February 24, 2017, 11:42:53 AM »

Well geez, it's not like it has "nothing" to do with the issue of "arrangement." That's what Carl's quote is about.

While nobody is saying C-man was suggesting any actual change to any official or legal credits, the framing of Mike's contribution by Carl is part of tackling what Mike did.

Are there few examples because, well, there aren't a ton of examples of this? How many examples have *anybody* thrown out in this thread? What was Carl talking about? The fundamental question C-man asked as an intriguing one. Was Carl kind of really only thinking of the really early stuff like "Surfin'?"

Further, I'm also thinking that it would be difficult to pinpoint when it's clear Mike made the contribution rather than being directed.

Take something like the backgrounds on "Help Me Rhonda." Was it Mike's idea to do the "bow, bow, bow" stuff? Would we ever know for sure? Do session tapes reveal some answers to these questions on any particular songs? Which leads me to another factor here: C-man's question is intriguing but would possibly require spending a good amount of time going back to listen to the stuff in question, and listening to extant and circulating session tapes.

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« Reply #82 on: February 24, 2017, 11:42:56 AM »

Edit - re Jay's post: it makes sense. I think it's the same effect that leads people to describe Dennis's voice as especially emotional, honest, vulnerable, etc.
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« Reply #83 on: February 24, 2017, 11:49:01 AM »

That entire demo tape from '76 should be released. The "circulating" version inexplicably has *better* sound quality than the one demo on the IJWMFTT soundtrack. I would imagine an even better-sounding tape might still be in the vaults.

I wouldn't lose sleep if "Little Children" were dropped, but really the entire thing is a no-brainer for release. Mike (and perhaps others) are there supporting him, Brian is soft-spoken and vulnerable and just belting the stuff out unfettered by anything and anyone. In many cases, I prefer these renditions to the eventual Adult Child/Love You studio versions.
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« Reply #84 on: February 24, 2017, 12:01:37 PM »

Edit - re Jay's post: it makes sense. I think it's the same effect that leads people to describe Dennis's voice as especially emotional, honest, vulnerable, etc.
To be completely honest, I prefer Dennis's post 1974-ish voice for that particular quality. I would go as far as to say that a version of "Thoughts Of You" sung by   Dennis with a pure and "undamaged" voice probably wouldn't sound as good as the version on POB.
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« Reply #85 on: February 24, 2017, 12:12:45 PM »

That entire demo tape from '76 should be released. The "circulating" version inexplicably has *better* sound quality than the one demo on the IJWMFTT soundtrack. I would imagine an even better-sounding tape might still be in the vaults.

I wouldn't lose sleep if "Little Children" were dropped, but really the entire thing is a no-brainer for release. Mike (and perhaps others) are there supporting him, Brian is soft-spoken and vulnerable and just belting the stuff out unfettered by anything and anyone. In many cases, I prefer these renditions to the eventual Adult Child/Love You studio versions.
A million percent agreed. I was kind of disappointed these weren't on MIC.
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« Reply #86 on: February 24, 2017, 01:10:45 PM »

That entire demo tape from '76 should be released. The "circulating" version inexplicably has *better* sound quality than the one demo on the IJWMFTT soundtrack. I would imagine an even better-sounding tape might still be in the vaults.

I wouldn't lose sleep if "Little Children" were dropped, but really the entire thing is a no-brainer for release. Mike (and perhaps others) are there supporting him, Brian is soft-spoken and vulnerable and just belting the stuff out unfettered by anything and anyone. In many cases, I prefer these renditions to the eventual Adult Child/Love You studio versions.
A million percent agreed. I was kind of disappointed these weren't on MIC.
Me too. I thought putting "I'll Bet He's Nice" on MIC was a no-brainer, if for no other reason than to hear the reaction of the guys listening to it.



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« Reply #87 on: February 24, 2017, 01:52:34 PM »

I do wonder if, in compiling MIC, they may have taken into consideration what is already "out there" in relatively good quality.

That is, with limited space for the previously-unreleased stuff, they tried to work in more (though not exclusively) previously unbooted stuff.

I always figured that might be an explanation for the lack of any "Adult Child" stuff other than the speed-corrected "It's Over Now." I figured at least a few of those like "On Broadway" would be likely inclusions.
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« Reply #88 on: February 24, 2017, 02:09:00 PM »

Everybody Wants to Live should've been on there. No reason why that missed the cust, yet Why Don't They let Us Fall In Love and Da Doo Ron Ron made it
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« Reply #89 on: February 24, 2017, 07:47:43 PM »

That entire demo tape from '76 should be released. The "circulating" version inexplicably has *better* sound quality than the one demo on the IJWMFTT soundtrack. I would imagine an even better-sounding tape might still be in the vaults.

I wouldn't lose sleep if "Little Children" were dropped, but really the entire thing is a no-brainer for release. Mike (and perhaps others) are there supporting him, Brian is soft-spoken and vulnerable and just belting the stuff out unfettered by anything and anyone. In many cases, I prefer these renditions to the eventual Adult Child/Love You studio versions.
Me, too. Those clunky arrangements on LY obscure some great chord changes. They sound great, just Brian on the piano, and his broken voice.
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« Reply #90 on: February 24, 2017, 08:11:43 PM »

As "broken" as it was, I greatly prefer the demo vocals to the ones on the released album.
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« Reply #91 on: February 25, 2017, 06:12:09 AM »

I feel icky commenting here...but can totally sympathize with you c-man. There are 2 ways of looking at it:

1) It's the internet (Internet?), any asshole can post anything, don't take it personally
2) Can't we have a decent discussion as adults?

I tend to feel more alliance with #2.
I may agree with OSD et al. more than I did with some of the exiled posters, but that doesn't mean he isn't sh*t posting too.

And to at least briefly touch on the actual topic of this thread, it's hard to expound upon this without having further details. "Arranging" can be a fairly fluid term- was Carl implying that Mike actually came up with "riffs," or just syllables to sing to already existing melodies? Probably a combination of both, but given his relative lack of original material would probably trend towards the lyric rather than than the musical side. Which is an important distinction because, for me, lyrics (particularly when authored by someone other than than musical composer) are a distinct element from the music; the music is the artistic focal point, and the lyrics can either enhance or diminish the music, but rarely define it. And which is why Dennis and Carl are lauded for there relative MUSICAL achievements, while Mike's contributions seem to be largely LYRICAL, which is a notably lesser achievement in my eyes. And so what? If anyone insulted Ringo for merely being a great drummer I would laugh.
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« Reply #92 on: February 25, 2017, 07:44:00 AM »

I feel icky commenting here...but can totally sympathize with you c-man. There are 2 ways of looking at it:

1) It's the internet (Internet?), any asshole can post anything, don't take it personally
2) Can't we have a decent discussion as adults?

I tend to feel more alliance with #2.
I may agree with OSD et al. more than I did with some of the exiled posters, but that doesn't mean he isn't sh*t posting too.

And to at least briefly touch on the actual topic of this thread, it's hard to expound upon this without having further details. "Arranging" can be a fairly fluid term- was Carl implying that Mike actually came up with "riffs," or just syllables to sing to already existing melodies? Probably a combination of both, but given his relative lack of original material would probably trend towards the lyric rather than than the musical side. Which is an important distinction because, for me, lyrics (particularly when authored by someone other than than musical composer) are a distinct element from the music; the music is the artistic focal point, and the lyrics can either enhance or diminish the music, but rarely define it. And which is why Dennis and Carl are lauded for there relative MUSICAL achievements, while Mike's contributions seem to be largely LYRICAL, which is a notably lesser achievement in my eyes. And so what? If anyone insulted Ringo for merely being a great drummer I would laugh.

Yeah, but Carl specifically said "...he'd decide what rhythms and syllables to use in the background...it can change the whole rhythm, the whole color and tone of it." (italics added by me) Rhythm implies music, syllables implies words. And if the whole rhythm, color and tone of a song was changed, I'd tend to think this was a fairly significant contribution to the arrangement...limited, I'm sure, to the bass vocal arrangement, but essential nonetheless.
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« Reply #93 on: February 25, 2017, 10:51:00 AM »

Yeah, but Carl specifically said "...he'd decide what rhythms and syllables to use in the background...it can change the whole rhythm, the whole color and tone of it." (italics added by me) Rhythm implies music, syllables implies words. And if the whole rhythm, color and tone of a song was changed, I'd tend to think this was a fairly significant contribution to the arrangement...limited, I'm sure, to the bass vocal arrangement, but essential nonetheless.

Very true, I missed that point, which does turn it into an arrangement idea. Again it's hard to speculate without examples, but I suppose that's what we're discussing.

Guitarfool brought up the point about how such contributions are often uncredited historically- is that fair though? Even when it comes to professional arrangers, I believe they're paid on a work-for-hire basis. It's too late to turn back time, but theoretically why couldn't Mike (or anyone) receive, say, 0.5% of a song's royalties due to contributing the rhythm of an intro bass riff? But then you get into the discussion/argument about how much each contribution is worth, which is obviously completely subjective; and in itself having the discussion can impinge on the creative process, if not outright destroy songwriting partnerships at the extreme end of the scale.

Some bands have gotten around this arrangement-attribution issue by crediting the entire band as songwriters. I don't have much real knowledge about specific breakdowns, i.e. it certainly wouldn't have been split equally between all contributors in every such case, but surely that has been done in some instances, even where a certain band member didn't contribute anything of note to a specific song. The obvious example would be Lennon/McCartney.

But it would be interesting if things had been done differently in the business, and you had credits like (completely fabricated as an example):
I Get Around - B. Wilson/M. Love, arr. B. Wilson/M. Love/C. Wilson/G. Campbell/H. Blaine
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« Reply #94 on: February 25, 2017, 11:21:26 AM »

I don't think this topic should be so controversial and divisive. I don't think it's any secret that Mike was the "hook" man in the Beach Boys. It's been noted in various interviews by various people associated with the group. To me, it seems that's basically what Carl was referring to.

I don't think anyone is trying to make a claim that Mike deserves a co-arranger credit. I think there's a difference between contributing arrangement ideas and being the arranger. Many people can contribute to an arrangement, but the arranger himself has the final say with whether or not to use the suggestions.
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« Reply #95 on: February 25, 2017, 11:30:14 AM »

I don't think this topic should be so controversial and divisive. I don't think it's any secret that Mike was the "hook" man in the Beach Boys. It's been noted in various interviews by various people associated with the group. To me, it seems that's basically what Carl was referring to.

I don't think anyone is trying to make a claim that Mike deserves a co-arranger credit. I think there's a difference between contributing arrangement ideas and being the arranger. Many people can contribute to an arrangement, but the arranger himself has the final say with whether or not to use the suggestions.

And as I laid out above in one of those posts relating to WIBN, there is a difference too between contributing songwriting ideas and being the songwriter, yet that went to court and the decision went against that very notion.
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« Reply #96 on: February 25, 2017, 11:50:16 AM »

Anytime ol' baldy made a contribution he'd be back to claim more than he really gave at a later date.  [Often in court..."Goodnight my baby/sleep tight my baby"  Ya he co-wrote 'Wouldn't It Be Nice' my arse.]   Let me be crystal clear here when that 'love' buffoon got left behind by the changing tides of the musical horizon back in the mid 60s his contributions became less and less and LESS meaningful...and even less successful.

When he wrassled control of the group back into his vision in time for '15  tiny ones' and then moving forward...HE single handedly killed the group.  They slowly but SURELY transformed into Sha Na Na on surf boards.  While there were still some higher moments on vinyl...they came WAY less and less often and with a diminishing frequency of returns.

So we can sit here and sift through the rubble right up to Slumber in Pair of Dice and the the touring circus called 'the Beach Boys' which, at one point and for a length of time prior to what proved to be the 50th analversary screw-up, was at least 2 notches below talented.  You want to shower this twit with false credit and accolades?  Groovy.

But it's bullshit.  And so was/is he.

I'll cut him no breaks.  Which is exactly the same number he's cut the band over these past 40 years.  I don't know how in the name of the greatest vocal arrangements and harmonies ever recorded some blinder-wearing nomads can justify sucking on the tit of what Mikey-boy did for the group during the first 4 years but it's been 1/2 a friggin' century [plus] and you seem to conveniently keep forgetting what that bag of turds wrote about the reasons he does what he does...including touring [not to mention dragging the brand and the fans through the mud he pisses in regularly.]  He said it.  He does it for his "nourishment and revenge."

No wonder they've actually and literally cut him out of the picture.  He's a distraction at best.  At worst?  He's rock-bottom.  There's more to come. 

He arranged Pieces Brother.  His thumb is planted where it belongs.
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« Reply #97 on: February 25, 2017, 11:53:37 AM »

We need to buy OSD and add some front row tickets for M&B. Evil
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« Reply #98 on: February 25, 2017, 12:31:42 PM »

Anytime ol' baldy made a contribution he'd be back to claim more than he really gave at a later date.  [Often in court..."Goodnight my baby/sleep tight my baby"  Ya he co-wrote 'Wouldn't It Be Nice' my arse.]   Let me be crystal clear here when that 'love' buffoon got left behind by the changing tides of the musical horizon back in the mid 60s his contributions became less and less and LESS meaningful...and even less successful.

When he wrassled control of the group back into his vision in time for '15  tiny ones' and then moving forward...HE single handedly killed the group.  They slowly but SURELY transformed into Sha Na Na on surf boards.  While there were still some higher moments on vinyl...they came WAY less and less often and with a diminishing frequency of returns.

So we can sit here and sift through the rubble right up to Slumber in Pair of Dice and the the touring circus called 'the Beach Boys' which, at one point and for a length of time prior to what proved to be the 50th analversary screw-up, was at least 2 notches below talented.  You want to shower this twit with false credit and accolades?  Groovy.

But it's bullshit.  And so was/is he.

I'll cut him no breaks.  Which is exactly the same number he's cut the band over these past 40 years.  I don't know how in the name of the greatest vocal arrangements and harmonies ever recorded some blinder-wearing nomads can justify sucking on the tit of what Mikey-boy did for the group during the first 4 years but it's been 1/2 a friggin' century [plus] and you seem to conveniently keep forgetting what that bag of turds wrote about the reasons he does what he does...including touring [not to mention dragging the brand and the fans through the mud he pisses in regularly.]  He said it.  He does it for his "nourishment and revenge."

No wonder they've actually and literally cut him out of the picture.  He's a distraction at best.  At worst?  He's rock-bottom.  There's more to come. 

He arranged Pieces Brother.  His thumb is planted where it belongs.

 w00t! w00t! w00t!
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myKe luHv, the most hated, embarrassing clown the world of music has ever witnessed.
DonnyL
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« Reply #99 on: February 25, 2017, 01:02:20 PM »

I don't think this topic should be so controversial and divisive. I don't think it's any secret that Mike was the "hook" man in the Beach Boys. It's been noted in various interviews by various people associated with the group. To me, it seems that's basically what Carl was referring to.

I don't think anyone is trying to make a claim that Mike deserves a co-arranger credit. I think there's a difference between contributing arrangement ideas and being the arranger. Many people can contribute to an arrangement, but the arranger himself has the final say with whether or not to use the suggestions.

And as I laid out above in one of those posts relating to WIBN, there is a difference too between contributing songwriting ideas and being the songwriter, yet that went to court and the decision went against that very notion.

I don't know all the details of the court case, but an argument could be made that the "good night/sleep tight" tag is a hook in "Wouldn't It Be Nice", even though the part seems minor from a lyrical standpoint. Not sure where I stand on that issue, other than I don't think it deserved a full 1/3 writing credit ... but probably more than contributing a line or two.

BUT ... writing is not arranging, and most BB records don't have an "Arranger" credit per se anyway. Arranging (and often producing) is not associated with royalties most of the time either.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2017, 01:28:32 PM by DonnyL » Logged

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