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Author Topic: Mike's Hand in Vocal Arrangements  (Read 26190 times)
Jay
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« Reply #50 on: February 23, 2017, 11:32:19 AM »

Agreed. I think my time here is coming to an end...
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« Reply #51 on: February 23, 2017, 11:33:54 AM »

Stay everyone.... Undecided
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« Reply #52 on: February 23, 2017, 11:57:58 AM »

Maybe I need to re-re-read all of the posts in this thread, but I'm not seeing some huge epic "Mike vs. Brian" or "Mike bashing" going on.

As someone who has started threads that have been sidetracked, hijacked, motives called into question, I don't see anything nearly that heinous going on here.

If one thinks Mike maybe didn't arrange vocals in the way someone else may be thinking he did, and believes that the arranging was firmly in the hands of Brian despite plenty of contributions from all of the band members, that's not some huge epic thread-hijacking "anti-Mike" attempt.

Is it possible in posing a question about Mike's role in arranging that you might come across a particularly zealous fan who tends to really lean towards Brian's role in the band? Sure. Is it possible someone is reading the top post and imbuing it with more "motive" (e.g. pumping up Mike's role) than is there? Sure. This is all par for the course on this or any board.

C-man is *not*, however, someone that would do something like this. Much as I have pondered specific stories or comments or moments in the band's history and then posed an open question to the board, it's clear this is what c-man was doing.

I don't see anybody in this thread who was not open to a back and forth on this topic.

I think it's important to not get too "anti-Mike", either in content and certainly in terms of the more silly rhetoric. Same goes for being overly-defensive of Brian.

But it's also important to not jump to the conclusion that disagreeing with a point such as the one in question (Mike "arranged" vocals by some definition) means there is some nefarious anti-Mike motive.

I'm just perplexed that among the MYRIAD of crazy, bomb-tossing threads that have devolved into madness, *this* is the thread being singled out as a "parody" of what others think of the board, or rising to the level of people leaving the board?
« Last Edit: February 23, 2017, 11:58:29 AM by HeyJude » Logged

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« Reply #53 on: February 23, 2017, 12:06:22 PM »

I will also offer this: In re-re-re-re-reading C-man's original post, I can see that he wasn't even really posing the question of whether Mike should be credited as an arranger, or even whether Carl's comments were justified. Rather, it looks like he was simply looking for examples, *if* or *where* such examples exist.

While weighing on whether the base assertion makes sense is not really "off topic" nor a huge left-turn in the topic at hand, I think perhaps it might help to admit and point out that the original intention of singling out any specific song examples (which would, in theory, include a response of "not much of anything" if that is one's opinion) was quickly sidetracked in this thread. I don't think anybody intended to do it really, but that's how it appears to have gone down. Just as I think maybe a few folks are too quick to apply the label of "anti-Mike" to the discussion, I think it's worth acknowledging that a predisposition to be skeptical of Mike (a predisposition which is a huge and weighty topic all on its own) could have played a role in moving very quickly from "song examples" that C-man was looking to discuss to a more pointed indictment of the underlying theory/assertion.

And also worth pointing out is that, if one is inclined to not like that underlying assertion, your beef would be more with Carl and not with C-man.
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« Reply #54 on: February 23, 2017, 12:07:19 PM »

Maybe I need to re-re-read all of the posts in this thread, but I'm not seeing some huge epic "Mike vs. Brian" or "Mike bashing" going on.

As someone who has started threads that have been sidetracked, hijacked, motives called into question, I don't see anything nearly that heinous going on here.

If one thinks Mike maybe didn't arrange vocals in the way someone else may be thinking he did, and believes that the arranging was firmly in the hands of Brian despite plenty of contributions from all of the band members, that's not some huge epic thread-hijacking "anti-Mike" attempt.

Is it possible in posing a question about Mike's role in arranging that you might come across a particularly zealous fan who tends to really lean towards Brian's role in the band? Sure. Is it possible someone is reading the top post and imbuing it with more "motive" (e.g. pumping up Mike's role) than is there? Sure. This is all par for the course on this or any board.

C-man is *not*, however, someone that would do something like this. Much as I have pondered specific stories or comments or moments in the band's history and then posed an open question to the board, it's clear this is what c-man was doing.

I don't see anybody in this thread who was not open to a back and forth on this topic.

I think it's important to not get too "anti-Mike", either in content and certainly in terms of the more silly rhetoric. Same goes for being overly-defensive of Brian.

But it's also important to not jump to the conclusion that disagreeing with a point such as the one in question (Mike "arranged" vocals by some definition) means there is some nefarious anti-Mike motive.

I'm just perplexed that among the MYRIAD of crazy, bomb-tossing threads that have devolved into madness, *this* is the thread being singled out as a "parody" of what others think of the board, or rising to the level of people leaving the board?

Oh please. After the first OSD comment, it was all downhill. A few good people tried to get it back on track, but almost every other friggin' post was calculated to make sure Mike Love didn't get TOO much credit, despite what Carl said.

(edited to indicate which of HeyJude's posts I was responding to).
« Last Edit: February 23, 2017, 12:08:39 PM by MarcellaHasDirtyFeet » Logged
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« Reply #55 on: February 23, 2017, 12:09:57 PM »

Stop using OSD as the "crazy BW fan" scapgoat.... Roll Eyes
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« Reply #56 on: February 23, 2017, 12:10:43 PM »

Maybe I need to re-re-read all of the posts in this thread, but I'm not seeing some huge epic "Mike vs. Brian" or "Mike bashing" going on.

As someone who has started threads that have been sidetracked, hijacked, motives called into question, I don't see anything nearly that heinous going on here.

If one thinks Mike maybe didn't arrange vocals in the way someone else may be thinking he did, and believes that the arranging was firmly in the hands of Brian despite plenty of contributions from all of the band members, that's not some huge epic thread-hijacking "anti-Mike" attempt.

Is it possible in posing a question about Mike's role in arranging that you might come across a particularly zealous fan who tends to really lean towards Brian's role in the band? Sure. Is it possible someone is reading the top post and imbuing it with more "motive" (e.g. pumping up Mike's role) than is there? Sure. This is all par for the course on this or any board.

C-man is *not*, however, someone that would do something like this. Much as I have pondered specific stories or comments or moments in the band's history and then posed an open question to the board, it's clear this is what c-man was doing.

I don't see anybody in this thread who was not open to a back and forth on this topic.

I think it's important to not get too "anti-Mike", either in content and certainly in terms of the more silly rhetoric. Same goes for being overly-defensive of Brian.

But it's also important to not jump to the conclusion that disagreeing with a point such as the one in question (Mike "arranged" vocals by some definition) means there is some nefarious anti-Mike motive.

I'm just perplexed that among the MYRIAD of crazy, bomb-tossing threads that have devolved into madness, *this* is the thread being singled out as a "parody" of what others think of the board, or rising to the level of people leaving the board?

Agreed.
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« Reply #57 on: February 23, 2017, 12:15:42 PM »

The snarky post from someone very early in the thread was a tone that C-man didn't deserve.

The idea that formulating syllables and sounds (e.g. "bop bop", "dit dit", etc.) is a far cry from even helping to actually "arrange" vocals is not an outlandish assertion.

But C-man didn't burst into a new thread claiming Mike should be getting a bunch of additional credit. Rather, I think he wanted to place Carl's interview comment in context.

Again, those who feel Carl's assertion is to some degree hyperbolic have a beef then with Carl, not C-man.

I tend to think Carl's comment was just an off-hand aside, a sort of "Hey, not too many people mention Mike's contribution to the group vocals", and that he was using "arrange" in much more broad sense. Al and Carl (and Dennis, and Bruce) were integral parts of the harmonies as well. I wouldn't be trying to say Al and Carl were as important Brian in pointing out how *key* Al and Carl were to the vocal blend, often taking the *hardest* mid-range parts in the harmony stack for instance.

I really hope C-man stays. There have been in the past and no doubt will in the future be plenty of "fork in the road" moments on this board; I just don't think this thread is one of them.
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« Reply #58 on: February 23, 2017, 12:34:49 PM »

He started the same thread at psf and posted the same "sorry I opened a can of worms / maybe I should quit" sentiment there, too (after a not particularly divisive or heated response). Maybe he's just feeling frayed or sensitive today, or having a bad day. It happens.
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« Reply #59 on: February 23, 2017, 01:14:50 PM »

Going back to his original post, he actually asked two specific questions, only one of which was answered. I honestly don't know how we all got so off track.
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« Reply #60 on: February 23, 2017, 01:40:26 PM »

Stay Jay....
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« Reply #61 on: February 23, 2017, 04:17:42 PM »

Everybody please chill out.
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« Reply #62 on: February 23, 2017, 05:31:08 PM »


It was Carl's specific use of the word "arranging" in this case. My point is and was that there is no question who was arranging the vocals specifically in the classic Capitol hitmaking era, 62-66. There is no question who was producing the records. There is no question who was the "leader" in terms of bringing the creative vision to life for the band. The band members themselves going back to that era have backed that up many times publicly, in interviews and even on stage. Any potential attempts to dispute or diminish that, or even raise challenges, are to me a waste of time and effort.

But no one is disputing that  - this is setting up a paper tiger to destroy, it's irrelevant to what was asked and suggested.  Are you so insecure about the dominance of Brian's creative control over the band's output that any comment that could be twisted to be read as challenging that brings such an extreme and exaggerated response?  Brian doesn't need you as his defender.

Brian was writing and arranging and producing the music yet that was clearly at times a collaborative venture with the musicians having important input, whether they played it differently than Brian intended and he liked it and kept it, or they made suggestions which he approved of as in the God Only Knows bridge.  There is no reason the vocal arrangements couldn't also at times be collaborative and here we were talking specifically about Mike's bass lines.  It's an interesting question which has been unnecessarily sidetracked.
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« Reply #63 on: February 23, 2017, 06:41:42 PM »


It was Carl's specific use of the word "arranging" in this case. My point is and was that there is no question who was arranging the vocals specifically in the classic Capitol hitmaking era, 62-66. There is no question who was producing the records. There is no question who was the "leader" in terms of bringing the creative vision to life for the band. The band members themselves going back to that era have backed that up many times publicly, in interviews and even on stage. Any potential attempts to dispute or diminish that, or even raise challenges, are to me a waste of time and effort.

But no one is disputing that  - this is setting up a paper tiger to destroy, it's irrelevant to what was asked and suggested.  Are you so insecure about the dominance of Brian's creative control over the band's output that any comment that could be twisted to be read as challenging that brings such an extreme and exaggerated response?  Brian doesn't need you as his defender.

Brian was writing and arranging and producing the music yet that was clearly at times a collaborative venture with the musicians having important input, whether they played it differently than Brian intended and he liked it and kept it, or they made suggestions which he approved of as in the God Only Knows bridge.  There is no reason the vocal arrangements couldn't also at times be collaborative and here we were talking specifically about Mike's bass lines.  It's an interesting question which has been unnecessarily sidetracked.

One thing I'm sure of is Brian doesn't need me or anyone here as his defender. 100% sure.

So is commenting and discussing related issues being a defender?

I recall several recent releases and reissues. I also recall several interviews of recent years. Among the comments was the idea that Carl was producing the "Party" sessions and other assorted sessions into 1967. Also that Mike produced the Endless Summer release. And that various members were "arranging" songs that featured the band performing Brian's arrangements from the records. And that despite what Chuck Britz said decades ago, that someone other than Brian was calling the shots (i.e. 'producing') the early sessions that Chuck had a front row seat to witness and said clearly Brian was the one calling the shots even on the first sessions.

The challenges to some of that commentary can be easily made by listening to the sessions, knowing the history, and taking everything into consideration to weigh the facts accordingly.

It's when the actual credit is in dispute, as in who produced what or who was the arranger, that yes - I will step up with the facts, as inconvenient as they may be depending on someone's perspective or intent, and if that is now labeled being a Brian defender, than so be it. Even though he doesn't need to be defended by me or anyone here, the facts are the facts.

I also posted plenty above on the nature of creating these works, beyond making records and into visual arts and film. We could list example after example from the film world alone where the actors for certain scenes played the role of director, writer, and in some cases cinematographer yet are credited in line with the way it's done as "actors" and not the above.

Maybe if I had put a smiley face emoji next to the comment that has everyone in an uproar, there wouldn't be an uproar?

It comes down to me seeing Carl use the word "arranged" in a way that I disagreed with - in my opinion - and actually having worked as an arranger and gotten paid for my musical arrangements on score paper in a previous career, with some understanding of the job description. And If some recent examples were any indication, I'll stand by what I said regarding fans or commentators potentially crediting someone other than Brian Wilson for the role he actually played in the process, whether it be arranger or producer.

Maybe it was a semantics thing, perhaps the topic would have been better placed in the thread dedicated to deciphering the vocal roles each member played on various tracks, in this case specific to bass vocals from Mike. But Carl's use of the word arranging struck me as similar to some attempts to give credit for things where credit isn't due, whether it be "producing" a compilation of Brian Wilson productions from the 60's or "arranging" tracks that Brian arranged.

If that's defending or being a defender to a fault, so be it. That's how I feel.
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« Reply #64 on: February 23, 2017, 06:44:58 PM »

He started the same thread at psf and posted the same "sorry I opened a can of worms / maybe I should quit" sentiment there, too (after a not particularly divisive or heated response). Maybe he's just feeling frayed or sensitive today, or having a bad day. It happens.

It does happen, indeed, to everyone. If that's the case, I hope all is well.

And in the case of whatever happened on another forum to generate the same response, I or my posts had nothing to do with that whatsoever since I am not registered and do not post there - For those pinning this on me.
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« Reply #65 on: February 23, 2017, 10:00:06 PM »

C-Man has  never been snarky or disrespectful that I have seen. His presence here is valued! He has forgotten more about the BBs than I will ever know.
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« Reply #66 on: February 23, 2017, 10:25:16 PM »

I, for one, am not going to disagree with Carl Wilson. I think the other members of the band were a lot more involved in the record making than we were lead to believe years ago. It started with the "Brian Wilson is a genius" stuff decades ago, and although not usually said outright, kind of implied "the other Beach Boys are not even worthy of ironing Brian's shirts". Then you have all the talk about the Wrecking Crew playing every note of every song recorded after a certain date. Mike can be his own worst enemy, but I think it's only fair that credit goes where credit is due.
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« Reply #67 on: February 24, 2017, 01:55:55 AM »

When campaigns are launched and when efforts are made to rewrite or distort history either publicly or via the private message system here and on other boards, indeed that does pollute the waters. When the information is false, that is pure deceit. When that false information is introduced as historical fact rather than personal opinion, and when the false information or distortion of facts is presented by anyone claiming an expert or historian status, for whatever motivation may be behind it, then yes: The politics of it all infected not only the discussions but was also an attempt at whitewashing or changing history. That, I agree, is unfortunate.


Are we ever going to actually know what the hell happened here? I fell like I have read the above paragraph a hundred times or so now. Honestly think this board has gone from one extreme to another.
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« Reply #68 on: February 24, 2017, 02:50:55 AM »

To make a long story as short as possible:

 Angry


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« Reply #69 on: February 24, 2017, 02:57:58 AM »

And here is how I "hate" Mike:

http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,24884.msg604637.html#msg604637

And no, I'm not implying that he secretly smokes.
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« Reply #70 on: February 24, 2017, 05:14:07 AM »

Guys, it's very simple. If Mike could "arrange" vocals in their entirety, he would have written a heck of a lot more songs for the band over the years.

He clearly hasn't done that. As a songwriter, Mike is the least of the group.

Now, as to adding specific parts to songs conceived of by others, there is no question that Mike's performances--and quite likely his ideas for those performances--have been value-added to those songs.

Frankly, identifying all of them should have been easy for c-man, who is certainly capable of going back through the songs and generating a comprehensive list. If he'd wanted an "academic" discussion, he might have done a little more up-front work and created a post that had more detail to it. That would have also served to forestall a lot of the "snark" that seemed to get under his skin. He posted a similar lament "over there," so it would seem that everyone has failed him with respect to this topic.

Apparently ADG is asking Mike to tell us which songs he actually created particular bass line riffs. What this may inevitably lead to is the claim that Mike thought up most, if not all, of the bass lines he sung, which would seem implausible on its face, given Mike's testimony over the years that he never ceased to be amazed at Brian hearing and then "dishing out" "all of the parts," which presumably includes at least some of the bass riff lines.

There does seem to be a desire on the part of a plurality of folks to diminish Brian's role in creating the music in the 1961-66 period. Clearly others (the BBs themselves or the Wrecking Crew) had a big hand in executing the music in the studio, and some changes to the creative process occur in that phase of things--but when we listen to the instrumental tracks via the SOTs, it's clear that Brian is making the call for what is the "final cut," like a combination director-film editor. As for vocals, we can assume that the final product is being monitored by Brian, with input from all of the band.

I think Carl was simply acknowledging that the bass-riff function in BBs vocal arrangements was (mostly) the domain of Mike, and that he was creative in that role as well as proficient in execution.
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« Reply #71 on: February 24, 2017, 05:30:24 AM »


Frankly, identifying all of them should have been easy for c-man, who is certainly capable of going back through the songs and generating a comprehensive list. If he'd wanted an "academic" discussion, he might have done a little more up-front work and created a post that had more detail to it. That would have also served to forestall a lot of the "snark" that seemed to get under his skin. He posted a similar lament "over there," so it would seem that everyone has failed him with respect to this topic.


Don, I certainly could have done so, but thought it would be fun to include others on this board in this particular academic pursuit. Clearly I was wrong.
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« Reply #72 on: February 24, 2017, 06:30:32 AM »

We've crowdsourced research on this board before-- I see no problem with c-man's presentation. It could have been a very fun exercise.
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« Reply #73 on: February 24, 2017, 06:44:38 AM »

It still can be. The board hasn't shut down. All people have to do is stop with the self-absorbed state-of-the-board chatter and talk about the subject itself. Presto change-o.

My guess would be that many--even most--of the bass parts that aren't part of true "composed" harmonies (e.g., "Our Prayer," or other parts when the harmonies really work as more or less block chords) were Mike's. He's talked about doing the "Good Vibrations" part that follows the bass line. He's talked about the "get around, round, round, I get around," if I'm not mistaken (which I think is genius). On the other board someone mentioned the "Big Bopper type" part in "Got To Know the Woman," which I thought sounded about right. Maybe "Cottonfields," with the "bow bow bow bow ditti dit, ditti dit," (or whatever the syllables are), as that sounds in the same vein.

I think a list of that style of bass parts could be put together pretty easily. Now whether Mike had total, partial, or no input on any one of them? That's harder to know, obviously.
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« Reply #74 on: February 24, 2017, 06:46:11 AM »

I, for one, am not going to disagree with Carl Wilson. I think the other members of the band were a lot more involved in the record making than we were lead to believe years ago. It started with the "Brian Wilson is a genius" stuff decades ago, and although not usually said outright, kind of implied "the other Beach Boys are not even worthy of ironing Brian's shirts". Then you have all the talk about the Wrecking Crew playing every note of every song recorded after a certain date. Mike can be his own worst enemy, but I think it's only fair that credit goes where credit is due.

We have the friggin' session tapes on a pretty decent amount of sessions to get an idea of what was going on in the studio. The other BBs were HUGELY involved in recording those vocals, singing *amazing* parts. These guys, in their 20s (Carl barely out of his teens), who were largely not professionally trained, were singing stuff like "Our Prayer." However much they liked or understood what they were singing, they sang "Cabinessence" and "Wonderful" and all of that stuff.

Nobody much has ever denied the HUGE amount of credit due to those guys for singing that stuff.

Saying Mike's role didn't rise to the level of "vocal arrangement", whatever Carl may have meant in some interview years later, is not to diminish Mike's role. Rather, it is to clarify it. If Mike came up with the monosyllabic sounds for some of his bass parts, I think it's important and interesting to know. I have no problem also believing that at various points through the years all of the other vocalists in the group may have altered or changed bits here and there as rehearsals and recordings took place. Hell, I give the band *outside* of Brian a lot of credit for *re-arranging* songs going into the 70s for their live concerts; and I would guess a lot of that credit goes to Carl as de facto musical director of that era. Turning "Heroes and Villains" in a barn-burning rocker with a lot of "oomph" was great work.

I think a better and more clear word for Carl to use in that interview would have been something along the lines of Mike helping to "form" the backing vocals or something like that. "Arranging" is a pretty specific and loaded term in writing and musical production, much like "Director" is in films. If an actor pitches an idea to the director for how to block out a shot for a scene, or asks to change some words in a line of dialogue, that can be an important and interesting factoid, but it doesn't mean it would necessarily be accurate to years later say "What a lot of people don't know is that so-and-so actually helped direct and write that movie." That's not to say this is a perfect analogy.

But you know, if I may digress and probably bore everyone, I've been listening to "Fabcast" lately, which is put together by Howie Edelson and company. I've been emboldened a little bit in listening to them talk about the Beatles and various eras/aspects of their career. They're very bold and honest in talking about them. One might think "bold and honest" is some sort of code for "not afraid to say something sucks", and while that is also true, what's most refreshing about how they talk about the Beatles is that they're not afraid to just boldly say something is great, or something is the best.

So, to me, I don't think it's out of line to be a little bold in just saying "You know what, Mike was great on those vocals and was an important part, but let's not kid ourselves that in pre-1967/68, and certainly in the prime era of 1964-1966, it was Brian doing nearly all of the heavy lifting in the studio and on the creative side. Nobody else in the band should really be having "vocal arranger" anywhere near their name even for all of their great contributions."

We can't go back in time to ask Carl what he meant. My position is that he was speaking much more broadly, and perhaps was simply looking to remind folks that the other members of the band made contributions as well and that those are often overlooked. All fine points. If, however, Carl was trying to formulate a more specific argument that Mike was a "vocal arranger" in the same way that he was "co-writer" on "Wouldn't It Be Nice", then I have no problem respectfully disagreeing with Carl. In doing so, I'm not particularly disagreeing with what Carl is relating that Mike did on those sessions, but rather simply with the label Carl is using.

As I've also already mentioned, I think it's important to also note that C-man's core question of actually ID'ing songs where Mike may have formed the monosyllabic sounds for bass parts did unfortunately go largely unanswered. Maybe people got too jumpy in trying to clarify the Brian/Mike roles instead of just talking about song examples. It may *also* be true that not a lot of examples were forthcoming because there doesn't appear to be a ton of examples where Mike's contribution in that specific regard is obvious and prominent enough to tag it as a "Mike" idea. Indeed, without additional context and clarification, Carl's quote becomes more and more of a head-scratcher the more one tries to move away from portraying Carl's comments as a very, very broad, generalized statement.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2017, 06:51:26 AM by HeyJude » Logged

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