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Author Topic: Mike's Hand in Vocal Arrangements  (Read 26180 times)
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« Reply #25 on: February 22, 2017, 06:14:26 AM »

I don't care how much of a dick he can be to Brian or anybody else. the man is a hell of a lot more worthy of respect and credit as a member of a vocal group than he's been given in the past, or right now in this thread. Listen to the vocal only mixes of Breakaway or Cottonfields, and see if you can come up with something half as good.

He probably gets just as much credit as he deserves. People know he contributed a lot to the band's 60s music and by the way, I'm sure rock critics would be very kind to Mike Love if he was a little more humble about those contributions. He was the lead singer, frontman and sometimes lyricist during the band's prime and he did some great bass vocals too. Not a genius but indeed a hard working guy. Smiley

This is my take on it too. Mike had an incredibly distinctive voice, and his bass vocals on 'Cherry Cherry Coupe' for example are some of my favorite vocals these guys ever recorded. His lyrics on 'Warmth of the Sun' or 'Good Vibrations' are simply phenomenal.

Not to get too far off topic, but that's something I admired about Mike's lyrics; Brian was into pocket symphonies - little 2-3 minute Spector like tunes. It's not easy telling a story in that amount of time, considering you'd only have two or three short verses to tell it in. Take 'Warmth of the Sun' - there is story, poetry, and vivid imagery that is damn hard to pull off in the allotted time...that takes a lot of talent, which is why these guys were always in the top part of the charts (regardless of who co-wrote, but Brian certainly did pick the right people for whatever song he was working on in those days, and Mike was certainly one of those right people).

I think we'd all focus on these moments more if we didn't read accusations about Brian supposedly being under Landy-esque control right now (as well as other similar negative comments). I don't think this is something that can be denied. All these guys have flaws, but life goes on. Dennis had flaws, but do we talk about those flaws constantly? No, we talk about how amazing Holy Man is. Carl had his flaws, but most of the comments we see here about him are about how beautiful his voice was. Brian has flaws, but do we focus on them? No, because Brian hasn't a negative thing to say about anything (except for the same old sh*t being on Jeopardy) so why would we focus on the negative?

Mike on the other hand brings up, well, the things that he brings up. If he were to play his shows, talk about the good days and not focus on the negative, talk positively about his cousin, I would bet big money that people here would see it as a redemption and anyone would rightfully look like a total ass if they were to constantly criticize him after such a turnaround. I would also bet that if he did a 180 on how he talks about his cousin the likelihood of them getting together to work on a project would be exponentially better than it currently is.

As for the topic at hand, I would love to know more about his contributions to the bass vocal parts. All of these guys contributed in one way or another, and it's not unrealistic by any means that Mike was there adding his own vocal flavor to his parts. Although I still stand by my statement that being cynical about the intentions of the original topic isn't an unfair reaction given the history of these credits.

That aside, I'm wondering if Mike's parts on the intro of 'Dressed Up For School' fall under this umbrella of Mike's contributions.
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« Reply #26 on: February 22, 2017, 06:52:33 AM »

I don't care how much of a dick he can be to Brian or anybody else. the man is a hell of a lot more worthy of respect and credit as a member of a vocal group than he's been given in the past, or right now in this thread. Listen to the vocal only mixes of Breakaway or Cottonfields, and see if you can come up with something half as good.

Very rarely is Mike's musical contribution to the band, *especially* his contribution to the early era songwriting and vocal work, criticized or downplayed or belittled.

If he's a total dick to "Brian or anybody else" and you don't care, then that's your thing. If others point when he's being a dick, it's not to say he didn't make great musical contributions. I suppose his being a dick becomes the headline-grabbing item rather than his musical contributions, but to the degree that is the case, that is mostly *on Mike.* There are many, many ways he could have and still could correct that. He chooses not to.

To the point of this thread's topic, the specific question is the very interesting question of whether what Mike did would constitute more credit in a general sense, and/or a specific actual credit for vocal arranging. To point out that he did great work but that his contributions may not rise to the level of actual "vocal arranging" in the way that, say, Brian actually wrote and arranged multi-part harmonies, is not to downplay Mike's contribution but rather to simply get a clear picture of what his contributions might be.

I think Carl was magnanimous in highlighting Mike's contribution to group vocals. I think he was speaking with a broad but still generous tone in talking about Mike's contributions in that interview cited at the top. I think his comment is a great jumping off point to look more closely at what Mike did or could have done based on the info we have. I also think it's okay to point out that deciding it should be "doot-doot" instead of "bip bip" or something does not necessarily rise to the level or arranging all of the individual vocal parts to "Our Prayer."
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« Reply #27 on: February 22, 2017, 07:20:24 AM »

The way it works is that there is the forest and there are the trees. In situations on songs or sessions where there was an arranger, that was a specific role that sometimes overreached the job description, but basically involved organizing all of the musical pieces and parts together (the trees) in order to create the finished product (the forest).

It could be, in the rock and pop world especially, a very liquid role to play, meaning it could vary song to song...and that is why a lot of these credits and references and research need to be approached that way. At the same time, there is still an arranger, as in someone who put all of the parts together to form a whole.

I won't mention the subjects topical to this discussion, Brian and Mike, for the examples to follow. But anyone who thinks it can be argued or needs to be revised around what people in and just outside the band have said since the 1960's, that on those "classic era" cuts it was Brian doing the arranging and teaching the guys their parts, they are either sorely mistaken or have been drinking too much Kool Aid. Can that be argued? Fact is fact. Anyway...

Take the example of Philadelphia International in the 70's, the home of "Philly Soul" where Gamble and Huff were cranking out hit after hit on the R&B and pop charts, grooves that were massive combined with sophisticated chords changes, great vocal performances, and surrounded by lush horn and string arrangements. They were the Wrecking Crew and the Stax house band of the 70's, and they even said they wanted to do a more sophisticated version of what Gordy did at Motown the previous decade. And they did it.

So consider there were two main producers/writers and arrangers working with that house band on all those hits. Primarily it would be either the team of Gamble and Huff, or Thom Bell. Check all the credits for those names to appear.

Now consider how they worked: The word is that Thom Bell would come to a session with all the musical parts charted out, every note written and arranged for the musicians to play. That was how he worked - He showed up like the old-school big band arrangers who would come to a meeting with a briefcase full of charts and a score, give it to the bandleader, and get paid for it. But every note was there.

Now contrast that to Gamble and Huff. They would come in with general outlines and had guitarist Norman Harris as arranger too, but more of what they got on tape came from opening it up more to the players on the floor in terms of coming up with grooves and parts. Instead of Bell scoring every note, Gamble and Huff went for more of a group contribution, having the main idea and outline in mind but allowing things to develop on the studio floor more freely than Bell's arrangements.

Sound familiar? Spector and Wilson did the same thing. A lot of producers and arrangers follow that method, while some like Thom Bell, Zappa, etc...they have every note on paper. If something needs to be changed, they change it, but the bulk of what they wanted recorded they had written on the score beforehand.

If, say, Hal Blaine were to come up with a specific key drum beat that anchored the entire arrangement, if not created a hook of the song as he did often, was Hal "arranging" the song? Or was he doing his job as the drummer while Jack Nitzsche actually arranged the tune? If some member of the Baker-Harris-Young Philly Soul house band had a bass riff or drum groove or guitar rhythm hook that made the song, did they "arrange" the song?

Or did they contribute one part into a bigger whole?

I've said before, it can be a slippery slope if and when trying to micro-manage the way recording sessions went down, especially in the 60's and 70's, if isolating contributions down to someone coming up with "dit dit, dit dit, dit dit" or a specific drum or guitar line is ever elevated to the credit of "producer", "arranger", or even "co-writer". Are they interesting topics and valuable contributions to those songs? Yes - But that's the extent of it. They are trees among many in the forest.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2017, 07:22:03 AM by guitarfool2002 » Logged

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« Reply #28 on: February 22, 2017, 07:55:55 AM »

No surprise Mike came up with many of the bass vocal lines on the songs, rather than those being dictated by Brian

Could you elaborate on this?

I gave two examples, I'm sure there are more.  Just like he came up with "Good night, baby, sleep tight, baby" on WIBN, but that's just on the tag.  Mike was intimately familiar with doo wop and bass vocal lines and likely needed little prompting to come up with bass lines to go with many of the early songs.  Obviously tightly arranged four and five part harmonies were dictated by Brian - Prayer, Lord's Prayer, A Young Man is Gone, And Your Dream Comes True, Old Man River, Their Hearts were Full of Spring.
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« Reply #29 on: February 22, 2017, 08:16:33 AM »

No surprise Mike came up with many of the bass vocal lines on the songs, rather than those being dictated by Brian

Could you elaborate on this?

Mike was intimately familiar with doo wop and bass vocal lines and likely needed little prompting to come up with bass lines to go with many of the early songs.  Obviously tightly arranged four and five part harmonies were dictated by Brian - Prayer, Lord's Prayer, A Young Man is Gone, And Your Dream Comes True, Old Man River, Their Hearts were Full of Spring.

That's kinda what I meant, I didn't know if Mike was more heavily influenced by do-wop than Brian or what.
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« Reply #30 on: February 22, 2017, 09:38:23 AM »

This is my take on it too. Mike had an incredibly distinctive voice, and his bass vocals on 'Cherry Cherry Coupe' for example are some of my favorite vocals these guys ever recorded. His lyrics on 'Warmth of the Sun' or 'Good Vibrations' are simply phenomenal.

Not to get too far off topic, but that's something I admired about Mike's lyrics; Brian was into pocket symphonies - little 2-3 minute Spector like tunes. It's not easy telling a story in that amount of time, considering you'd only have two or three short verses to tell it in. Take 'Warmth of the Sun' - there is story, poetry, and vivid imagery that is damn hard to pull off in the allotted time...that takes a lot of talent, which is why these guys were always in the top part of the charts (regardless of who co-wrote, but Brian certainly did pick the right people for whatever song he was working on in those days, and Mike was certainly one of those right people).

I think we'd all focus on these moments more if we didn't read accusations about Brian supposedly being under Landy-esque control right now (as well as other similar negative comments). I don't think this is something that can be denied. All these guys have flaws, but life goes on. Dennis had flaws, but do we talk about those flaws constantly? No, we talk about how amazing Holy Man is. Carl had his flaws, but most of the comments we see here about him are about how beautiful his voice was. Brian has flaws, but do we focus on them? No, because Brian hasn't a negative thing to say about anything (except for the same old sh*t being on Jeopardy) so why would we focus on the negative?

Mike on the other hand brings up, well, the things that he brings up. If he were to play his shows, talk about the good days and not focus on the negative, talk positively about his cousin, I would bet big money that people here would see it as a redemption and anyone would rightfully look like a total ass if they were to constantly criticize him after such a turnaround. I would also bet that if he did a 180 on how he talks about his cousin the likelihood of them getting together to work on a project would be exponentially better than it currently is.

As for the topic at hand, I would love to know more about his contributions to the bass vocal parts. All of these guys contributed in one way or another, and it's not unrealistic by any means that Mike was there adding his own vocal flavor to his parts. Although I still stand by my statement that being cynical about the intentions of the original topic isn't an unfair reaction given the history of these credits.

That aside, I'm wondering if Mike's parts on the intro of 'Dressed Up For School' fall under this umbrella of Mike's contributions.

GREAT post, Rab! (Somehow, I like that sentence...) Couldn't agree more. I would immediately "forgive" Mike for everything if he just LET GO.

We know that Brian did drugs, Mike. Brian himself is on record for saying it's the thing he regrets most.
We know that you were cheated out of your rightful credits for a long period. You were also amply compensated for that, many years ago, no need to keep on harbouring darkly vengeful feelings.
Most importantly, we know you and Melinda aren't best buddies. That does not make her Landy's equivalent.

LET GO, Mike. Please. Let us concentrate on your great leads, on your great bass parts, on your good and sometimes great lyrics, on the good work you are still doing with your band (though even that is somewhat besmirched by that unrelenting license thingy...).

Mike frustrates me to no end. He won't let go. It's like hoping for a live "Rio Grande" by Brian. Not going to happen. Sad
« Last Edit: February 22, 2017, 09:42:03 AM by thorgil » Logged

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« Reply #31 on: February 22, 2017, 10:26:13 AM »

This is my take on it too. Mike had an incredibly distinctive voice, and his bass vocals on 'Cherry Cherry Coupe' for example are some of my favorite vocals these guys ever recorded. His lyrics on 'Warmth of the Sun' or 'Good Vibrations' are simply phenomenal.

Not to get too far off topic, but that's something I admired about Mike's lyrics; Brian was into pocket symphonies - little 2-3 minute Spector like tunes. It's not easy telling a story in that amount of time, considering you'd only have two or three short verses to tell it in. Take 'Warmth of the Sun' - there is story, poetry, and vivid imagery that is damn hard to pull off in the allotted time...that takes a lot of talent, which is why these guys were always in the top part of the charts (regardless of who co-wrote, but Brian certainly did pick the right people for whatever song he was working on in those days, and Mike was certainly one of those right people).

I think we'd all focus on these moments more if we didn't read accusations about Brian supposedly being under Landy-esque control right now (as well as other similar negative comments). I don't think this is something that can be denied. All these guys have flaws, but life goes on. Dennis had flaws, but do we talk about those flaws constantly? No, we talk about how amazing Holy Man is. Carl had his flaws, but most of the comments we see here about him are about how beautiful his voice was. Brian has flaws, but do we focus on them? No, because Brian hasn't a negative thing to say about anything (except for the same old sh*t being on Jeopardy) so why would we focus on the negative?

Mike on the other hand brings up, well, the things that he brings up. If he were to play his shows, talk about the good days and not focus on the negative, talk positively about his cousin, I would bet big money that people here would see it as a redemption and anyone would rightfully look like a total ass if they were to constantly criticize him after such a turnaround. I would also bet that if he did a 180 on how he talks about his cousin the likelihood of them getting together to work on a project would be exponentially better than it currently is.

As for the topic at hand, I would love to know more about his contributions to the bass vocal parts. All of these guys contributed in one way or another, and it's not unrealistic by any means that Mike was there adding his own vocal flavor to his parts. Although I still stand by my statement that being cynical about the intentions of the original topic isn't an unfair reaction given the history of these credits.

That aside, I'm wondering if Mike's parts on the intro of 'Dressed Up For School' fall under this umbrella of Mike's contributions.

GREAT post, Rab! (Somehow, I like that sentence...) Couldn't agree more. I would immediately "forgive" Mike for everything if he just LET GO.

We know that Brian did drugs, Mike. Brian himself is on record for saying it's the thing he regrets most.
We know that you were cheated out of your rightful credits for a long period. You were also amply compensated for that, many years ago, no need to keep on harbouring darkly vengeful feelings.
Most importantly, we know you and Melinda aren't best buddies. That does not make her Landy's equivalent.

LET GO, Mike. Please. Let us concentrate on your great leads, on your great bass parts, on your good and sometimes great lyrics, on the good work you are still doing with your band (though even that is somewhat besmirched by that unrelenting license thingy...).

Mike frustrates me to no end. He won't let go. It's like hoping for a live "Rio Grande" by Brian. Not going to happen. Sad

+1. And I truly believe everyone on the other board - even Mike's most ardent defenders - would agree with everything you've just said, even if they won't publicly admit it.

I have no doubt in believing that Mike added all sorts of little nuggets of cool stuff to the vocal arrangements throughout the catalog.

Here's another: Mike's bass vocal parts in Make it Big, such as "and everything that you do, doll" during the choruses sound like something he would have added off the cuff, with "doll" likely being an ad lib. It feels sort of like the "split, man" type of vocal riffing in The Little Girl I Once Knew.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2017, 10:49:47 AM by CenturyDeprived » Logged
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« Reply #32 on: February 22, 2017, 06:11:18 PM »

I'd be more than willing to give that asshole way more credit...IF he wasn't such a complete and ongoing, never-ending, never fading, self propelled  shithead.  But he is ALL of that.  So?  He get's what he deserves.

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« Reply #33 on: February 22, 2017, 06:56:52 PM »

Just to restate it - The nature of how music is made often involves off-the-cuff contributions from any number of people involved. That's a fact. If it extends beyond accepting that working method as the way things were and are, and credits start being sought or applied to everyone who said "why don't you try this..." or added something at any point in the process, it becomes an exercise in futility. And ultimately, what's the purpose?

Two eye-opening facts were spoken to me when I was still in college. One was that any number of film and TV composers who are and were household names had teams of writers and interns and whatnot "filling in" the grand orchestrations and even compositions themselves, after the main composer sketched out a melodic idea or a few phrases to run with. The staff would often fill in the rest. What were their names, those staff writers and arrangers and composers who fleshed out those sketches and ideas to create what audiences heard in the theater?

Second - Art History classes and lectures. Take any number of "masterpieces", those recognized around the world as the true masterpieces. On more of those canvases than people might realize, it was a similar structure as the film composers, where students and those studying under the masters or at their studios would "fill in" the details such as backgrounds, certain objects on the canvas other than the main subject...just like the film scores above. Yet who were these students and apprentices, and do they get credit...or does the master artist who signed the canvas get recorded as "The Artist" who painted the work?

Just some random thoughts.

 
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« Reply #34 on: February 22, 2017, 07:27:35 PM »

Yet in the case of Beach Boys music, specifically that classic Capitol era 62-66, it's pretty clear exactly where the work was done and who did and should always and in the future get credit in terms of arranging and producing those records. Unless the other band members were lying when they introduced him at various live shows.
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« Reply #35 on: February 22, 2017, 09:35:36 PM »

I don't care how much of a dick he can be to Brian or anybody else. the man is a hell of a lot more worthy of respect and credit as a member of a vocal group than he's been given in the past, or right now in this thread. Listen to the vocal only mixes of Breakaway or Cottonfields, and see if you can come up with something half as good.
I agree with you 100%, Jay. It seems there is an unwritten rule on this board against saying anything complimentary about Mike.
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« Reply #36 on: February 22, 2017, 09:42:24 PM »

I don't care how much of a dick he can be to Brian or anybody else. the man is a hell of a lot more worthy of respect and credit as a member of a vocal group than he's been given in the past, or right now in this thread. Listen to the vocal only mixes of Breakaway or Cottonfields, and see if you can come up with something half as good.
I agree with you 100%, Jay. It seems there is an unwritten rule on this board against saying anything complimentary about Mike.

Not for me. I may not be 100% supportive of the decisions he's made, but you will *never* hear me disparage the work he did with the band.

Of course, I'm also one of the only 3 people in the world to my knowledge that actually LIKED Looking Back With Love
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« Reply #37 on: February 22, 2017, 09:52:48 PM »

I don't care how much of a dick he can be to Brian or anybody else. the man is a hell of a lot more worthy of respect and credit as a member of a vocal group than he's been given in the past, or right now in this thread. Listen to the vocal only mixes of Breakaway or Cottonfields, and see if you can come up with something half as good.
I agree with you 100%, Jay. It seems there is an unwritten rule on this board against saying anything complimentary about Mike.

Not for me. I may not be 100% supportive of the decisions he's made, but you will *never* hear me disparage the work he did with the band.

Of course, I'm also one of the only 3 people in the world to my knowledge that actually LIKED Looking Back With Love

4

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« Reply #38 on: February 22, 2017, 10:55:03 PM »

Even the cat is looking at you like "really?".  LOL
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« Reply #39 on: February 23, 2017, 03:06:55 AM »

I don't care how much of a dick he can be to Brian or anybody else. the man is a hell of a lot more worthy of respect and credit as a member of a vocal group than he's been given in the past, or right now in this thread. Listen to the vocal only mixes of Breakaway or Cottonfields, and see if you can come up with something half as good.
I agree with you 100%, Jay. It seems there is an unwritten rule on this board against saying anything complimentary about Mike.

Another thing that never fails to frustrate me is this: it should be obvious to everybody that here the opinions about Mike are very nuanced. Then someone comes and bundles together Billy, Craig, Bicycle, Century, Hey Jude, Rab, Add Some, OSD, Smile Brian, ...

By the way, there is a reason I'm not commenting on this thread's true topic. I'm so sick of the arguments (and lawsuits!) about "credits" that I don't want to touch those matters with a pole. They are read-only to me.
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« Reply #40 on: February 23, 2017, 04:59:31 AM »

Seriously guys, this is a can of worms I now regret opening. OK, for the record, once and for all - I posed this question simply out of my own curiosity. It's been on my mind at various times since the fall of '83, when the Carl quote first appeared in the Musician magazine article on Brian and his music. I was hoping to engage my fellow posters in a scholarly, academia-based thread, as I frequently do - in this case, something similar to the great Definitive Vocal Credit thread to which many have contributed, including Adam Marsland and his ear for picking out individual BB voices. In retrospect, maybe I should have just posed the question there, instead of creating a new thread on the subject. I figured there would be a few snarky comments, but didn't really anticipate having my own motives called into question. I like to think that most people here believe in my sincerity and objectivity, and love of the music. The thing I can't stand is the politics - if I wanted more of that, I'd stay at work all day instead of taking refuge in a message board devoted to the music of my favorite band. It's bad enough that politics have infected the workings and interpersonal relationships of the band itself, but truly pathetic that they have encroached upon this fan-based board to the degree they have. That said, I think perhaps this should be my final post - on this or any other topic.
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« Reply #41 on: February 23, 2017, 06:30:13 AM »

I can talk only for myself, but absolutely believe in your sincerity, objectivity and love for the music.
What I said in my previous post was not directed against you or your thread, at all, and am sorry if it sounded like that. It was only a sincere attempt to explain why I was saying nothing about the thread's subject: because I'd have the sensation of walking on uncommonly brittle eggshells.
Though, on second thoughts I have ALWAYS this sensation in the world of BB fandom. Sad
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« Reply #42 on: February 23, 2017, 06:39:55 AM »

I like to think that most people here believe in my sincerity and objectivity, and love of the music.

I'd say they are fools if they don't.
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HeyJude
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« Reply #43 on: February 23, 2017, 06:40:36 AM »

I think it was and is a great topic, c-man. I've tried to skim back through the entire thread, and I don't really see anyone calling your motives in starting the thread into question.

I don't think the thread has fallen off the deep end or anything. I do think one or two people seemed to have kind of overreacted and assumed if someone in a very measured and conversational tone suggests Mike *doesn't* quite deserve a literal "vocal arranger" credit despite his great work on all of those vocals, it's just "another Mike bashing thread."

I think several things:

1. Saying Mike's work may not rise to the level of a typical definition of "vocal arranger" isn't a knock on Mike, or at attempt to bash him.

2. Posing the question in the first place is a *great* excuse to examine the material again, and with a different eye/focus.

3. Much like I found out when a year or two ago I attempted to start a scholarly thread examining the late 90s period and published statements about Mike not wanting to appear on stage with Carl, there's *usually* going to be the potential for "politics" (meaning band politics) to become part of the discussion. Fans should examine how much this stuff infects our discussions and enjoyment of the band, but it's also *very* important to realize that a large percentage  (not all, but a large amount) of why this happens is because of the band and its messed up (to put it politely) history.

4. Even from the most objective historical aspect in terms of the band's biography (meaning the whole story, not just the music alone), it *must* be noted that Mike has spent a *half century* helping to seal his fate and his reputation. It's not *all* on him, but a lot of it is. His long history of backbiting and snark and lawsuits and passive aggression and all of that, that all has unfortunately imbued most any discussion of the guy and his role in the band. It *shouldn't* be this way, and great writers and historians and scholars can still effectively separate it all out and keep the political stuff out of it when it *isn't* germane. But it so often unfortunately *is* germane. The second that "credit" comes into play, whether we're talking literal "credits" or just anecdotal/historical "credit", even then unfortunately Mike's rep and history and the political stuff do become germane to some degree. It doesn't mean it has to turn into a bashing thread.

5. Some folks just don't delve into the "politics" side of things relating to the band. Others delve into it too much. I don't particularly like either extreme. The problem with the latter is obvious. But in the case of the former, I tend to not be a fan of the 100% politically-neutral-at-all-costs point of view either, meaning neutral to the point of ignoring or omitting anything. But I do realize that once you *do* let that stuff into the discussion, it's difficult to keep everything on topic.
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Hickory Violet Part IV
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« Reply #44 on: February 23, 2017, 09:51:24 AM »

Seriously guys, this is a can of worms I now regret opening. OK, for the record, once and for all - I posed this question simply out of my own curiosity. It's been on my mind at various times since the fall of '83, when the Carl quote first appeared in the Musician magazine article on Brian and his music. I was hoping to engage my fellow posters in a scholarly, academia-based thread, as I frequently do - in this case, something similar to the great Definitive Vocal Credit thread to which many have contributed, including Adam Marsland and his ear for picking out individual BB voices. In retrospect, maybe I should have just posed the question there, instead of creating a new thread on the subject. I figured there would be a few snarky comments, but didn't really anticipate having my own motives called into question. I like to think that most people here believe in my sincerity and objectivity, and love of the music. The thing I can't stand is the politics - if I wanted more of that, I'd stay at work all day instead of taking refuge in a message board devoted to the music of my favorite band. It's bad enough that politics have infected the workings and interpersonal relationships of the band itself, but truly pathetic that they have encroached upon this fan-based board to the degree they have. That said, I think perhaps this should be my final post - on this or any other topic.

Don't leave, c man.
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CenturyDeprived
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« Reply #45 on: February 23, 2017, 10:10:21 AM »

I don't care how much of a dick he can be to Brian or anybody else. the man is a hell of a lot more worthy of respect and credit as a member of a vocal group than he's been given in the past, or right now in this thread. Listen to the vocal only mixes of Breakaway or Cottonfields, and see if you can come up with something half as good.
I agree with you 100%, Jay. It seems there is an unwritten rule on this board against saying anything complimentary about Mike.

Not for me. I may not be 100% supportive of the decisions he's made, but you will *never* hear me disparage the work he did with the band.

Of course, I'm also one of the only 3 people in the world to my knowledge that actually LIKED Looking Back With Love

There are moments of listenability on it.
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CenturyDeprived
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« Reply #46 on: February 23, 2017, 10:20:16 AM »

I think it was and is a great topic, c-man. I've tried to skim back through the entire thread, and I don't really see anyone calling your motives in starting the thread into question.

I don't think the thread has fallen off the deep end or anything. I do think one or two people seemed to have kind of overreacted and assumed if someone in a very measured and conversational tone suggests Mike *doesn't* quite deserve a literal "vocal arranger" credit despite his great work on all of those vocals, it's just "another Mike bashing thread."

I think several things:

1. Saying Mike's work may not rise to the level of a typical definition of "vocal arranger" isn't a knock on Mike, or at attempt to bash him.

2. Posing the question in the first place is a *great* excuse to examine the material again, and with a different eye/focus.

3. Much like I found out when a year or two ago I attempted to start a scholarly thread examining the late 90s period and published statements about Mike not wanting to appear on stage with Carl, there's *usually* going to be the potential for "politics" (meaning band politics) to become part of the discussion. Fans should examine how much this stuff infects our discussions and enjoyment of the band, but it's also *very* important to realize that a large percentage  (not all, but a large amount) of why this happens is because of the band and its messed up (to put it politely) history.

4. Even from the most objective historical aspect in terms of the band's biography (meaning the whole story, not just the music alone), it *must* be noted that Mike has spent a *half century* helping to seal his fate and his reputation. It's not *all* on him, but a lot of it is. His long history of backbiting and snark and lawsuits and passive aggression and all of that, that all has unfortunately imbued most any discussion of the guy and his role in the band. It *shouldn't* be this way, and great writers and historians and scholars can still effectively separate it all out and keep the political stuff out of it when it *isn't* germane. But it so often unfortunately *is* germane. The second that "credit" comes into play, whether we're talking literal "credits" or just anecdotal/historical "credit", even then unfortunately Mike's rep and history and the political stuff do become germane to some degree. It doesn't mean it has to turn into a bashing thread.

5. Some folks just don't delve into the "politics" side of things relating to the band. Others delve into it too much. I don't particularly like either extreme. The problem with the latter is obvious. But in the case of the former, I tend to not be a fan of the 100% politically-neutral-at-all-costs point of view either, meaning neutral to the point of ignoring or omitting anything. But I do realize that once you *do* let that stuff into the discussion, it's difficult to keep everything on topic.

All of this is true, HeyJude.

I apologize if I let my stupid emotions sidetrack legit topics sometimes, as I do appreciate scholarly discussion of all matters BBs, including Mike. I am fascinated by figuring out who might have contributed what part to what song (certainly including Mike, who I'm certain DID in fact contribute plenty of uncredited stuff here and there).

C-man is awesome and I sincerely hope he doesn't leave.
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Juice Brohnston
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« Reply #47 on: February 23, 2017, 10:23:24 AM »

Seriously guys, this is a can of worms I now regret opening. OK, for the record, once and for all - I posed this question simply out of my own curiosity. It's been on my mind at various times since the fall of '83, when the Carl quote first appeared in the Musician magazine article on Brian and his music. I was hoping to engage my fellow posters in a scholarly, academia-based thread, as I frequently do - in this case, something similar to the great Definitive Vocal Credit thread to which many have contributed, including Adam Marsland and his ear for picking out individual BB voices. In retrospect, maybe I should have just posed the question there, instead of creating a new thread on the subject. I figured there would be a few snarky comments, but didn't really anticipate having my own motives called into question. I like to think that most people here believe in my sincerity and objectivity, and love of the music. The thing I can't stand is the politics - if I wanted more of that, I'd stay at work all day instead of taking refuge in a message board devoted to the music of my favorite band. It's bad enough that politics have infected the workings and interpersonal relationships of the band itself, but truly pathetic that they have encroached upon this fan-based board to the degree they have. That said, I think perhaps this should be my final post - on this or any other topic.
Hope you keep posting at the other board. Your frustration is understandable.
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guitarfool2002
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« Reply #48 on: February 23, 2017, 11:18:29 AM »

The politics had been unfortunately introduced into the discussions about the band and the band members long before this. When campaigns are launched and when efforts are made to rewrite or distort history either publicly or via the private message system here and on other boards, indeed that does pollute the waters. When the information is false, that is pure deceit. When that false information is introduced as historical fact rather than personal opinion, and when the false information or distortion of facts is presented by anyone claiming an expert or historian status, for whatever motivation may be behind it, then yes: The politics of it all infected not only the discussions but was also an attempt at whitewashing or changing history. That, I agree, is unfortunate.

When as recent as the past two years fans have to read or hear interviews or comments that contradict even the most basic facts to the point of absurdity, and challenging them gets more criticism than the actual whoppers that are being spoken or reported as fact as in "how dare you question...", it is a sad state of affairs. But as in many cases, look at the sources and proceed accordingly.

It was Carl's specific use of the word "arranging" in this case. My point is and was that there is no question who was arranging the vocals specifically in the classic Capitol hitmaking era, 62-66. There is no question who was producing the records. There is no question who was the "leader" in terms of bringing the creative vision to life for the band. The band members themselves going back to that era have backed that up many times publicly, in interviews and even on stage. Any potential attempts to dispute or diminish that, or even raise challenges, are to me a waste of time and effort. Yet that is what we have seen more in the past 5 years than I ever recall. Not saying Carl in this case was doing that, but when quotes like this start running through the machinery, getting distorted and spun, and develop beyond being a throwaway quote from 30 years ago into trying to reshape the history and the facts, that is when the problems really start, especially if the politics of the whole thing carry it even further.

If the well had not been already poisoned with the politics of damage control, axe-grinding and grudges, and distract/distort/diminish/discredit tactics ripped directly from a DC political PR war room, maybe none of these situations would happen.
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"All of us have the privilege of making music that helps and heals - to make music that makes people happier, stronger, and kinder. Don't forget: Music is God's voice." - Brian Wilson
MarcellaHasDirtyFeet
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« Reply #49 on: February 23, 2017, 11:26:12 AM »

Ugh. This thread reads like a parody of this board put together by the PS Forum.

And, GuitarFool, you quickly jumped down c-man's throat with this "well it looks like Mike is looking for more credit" BS. And the thread turned into another opportunity to either bash Mike or pretend to be fair-minded about him while also taking the opportunity to bash him. And then it veered toward "if only Mike would let it go" for some unfathomable reason.

This board doesn't deserve c-man, if this is how he will be treated. Unbelievable.
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