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Author Topic: Paley Sessions Discussion Thread  (Read 73758 times)
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« Reply #325 on: November 18, 2017, 07:04:53 AM »

I think one of the major reason Carl didn't want to work with Brian at that point is right there in that interview footage from the stuff shot during that Baywatch Nights session.  Carl realised his brother needed to get better before touring etc.

Meanwhile Brian was writing and recording literally dozens of new songs with Andy Paley and Don Was. What was Carl offering in terms of new material for the band? Zip/nada/nothing.
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« Reply #326 on: November 18, 2017, 03:05:05 PM »

I'd have to dig to find it...but in an issue of the "California Saga" fan publication at the time, someone recounted a conversation with Carl (following a BBs gig, I believe) where Carl said he was "happy to be recording guitar tracks with Brian", indicating he felt positive about the whole endeavor. Carl seems to have changed his mind a lot in those days...
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« Reply #327 on: November 18, 2017, 11:49:22 PM »

I think one of the major reason Carl didn't want to work with Brian at that point is right there in that interview footage from the stuff shot during that Baywatch Nights session.  Carl realised his brother needed to get better before touring etc.

Meanwhile Brian was writing and recording literally dozens of new songs with Andy Paley and Don Was. What was Carl offering in terms of new material for the band? Zip/nada/nothing.
Recording is one thing. Touring is another. Brian hadn't toured regularly with the band in ages, just occasional appearances, usually just the big events like the 4th of July shows or Live Aid.
As far as new material from Carl, I think he was saving it for the Like a Brother album. It's always been my gut feeling that at some point after the 1985 album, Carl just gave up as far as moving the Beach Boys forward as a contemporary band. Mike wanted total control, and Carl just stepped aside and let him have it. Mike had his ideas about what was accessible and commercial, and sometimes he was successful - Getcha Back, Kokomo, Wipe Out; other times, Mike's ideas didn't go over with the general public.
I think Carl's focus in the later years was the live band - just making sure the musicians played the songs the way they were supposed to be played, making sure the vocal parts were sung correctly. He heard EVERYTHING - if you hit a bum note, you'd get the "stink eye" from Carl. You didn't want to get that!
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« Reply #328 on: November 19, 2017, 12:44:12 PM »

I'd have to dig to find it...but in an issue of the "California Saga" fan publication at the time, someone recounted a conversation with Carl (following a BBs gig, I believe) where Carl said he was "happy to be recording guitar tracks with Brian", indicating he felt positive about the whole endeavor. Carl seems to have changed his mind a lot in those days...

Craig, you inspired me to do some digging of my own and I finally found said issue: #13, Summer 1995.

Carl also lamented that Brian had resumed smoking. Perhaps Carl didn't want to be inhaling secondary cigarette smoke in the studio since he'd quit smoking himself.
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« Reply #329 on: November 19, 2017, 02:44:02 PM »

I think one of the major reason Carl didn't want to work with Brian at that point is right there in that interview footage from the stuff shot during that Baywatch Nights session.  Carl realised his brother needed to get better before touring etc.

Meanwhile Brian was writing and recording literally dozens of new songs with Andy Paley and Don Was. What was Carl offering in terms of new material for the band? Zip/nada/nothing.
Recording is one thing. Touring is another. Brian hadn't toured regularly with the band in ages, just occasional appearances, usually just the big events like the 4th of July shows or Live Aid.
As far as new material from Carl, I think he was saving it for the Like a Brother album. It's always been my gut feeling that at some point after the 1985 album, Carl just gave up as far as moving the Beach Boys forward as a contemporary band. Mike wanted total control, and Carl just stepped aside and let him have it. Mike had his ideas about what was accessible and commercial, and sometimes he was successful - Getcha Back, Kokomo, Wipe Out; other times, Mike's ideas didn't go over with the general public.
I think Carl's focus in the later years was the live band - just making sure the musicians played the songs the way they were supposed to be played, making sure the vocal parts were sung correctly. He heard EVERYTHING - if you hit a bum note, you'd get the "stink eye" from Carl. You didn't want to get that!

Exactly regarding recording and touring.  Brian mentions several times how scared he was even recording.  What would he have been like touring Pet Sounds?  He was not in good shape.  Carl probably saw that.  Carl may also have seen how not hands on Brian was at that point in the studio.  Brian's live vocals were erratic as was his demeanour.  The best bit about the Paley sessions IMHO was the use of organic instruments again.  It sounded like 1965 era stuff. I was excited at the time when I heard this, and it still holds up. Some of the songs are really good, with some great vocals.  We'll never know how good it could have been.  I'd guess Brian possibly lost interest at some point as he'd done that style of production 30 years prior.  A genius wants to move forward not look backwards.
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« Reply #330 on: November 19, 2017, 04:06:29 PM »

I think one of the major reason Carl didn't want to work with Brian at that point is right there in that interview footage from the stuff shot during that Baywatch Nights session.  Carl realised his brother needed to get better before touring etc.

Meanwhile Brian was writing and recording literally dozens of new songs with Andy Paley and Don Was. What was Carl offering in terms of new material for the band? Zip/nada/nothing.
Recording is one thing. Touring is another. Brian hadn't toured regularly with the band in ages, just occasional appearances, usually just the big events like the 4th of July shows or Live Aid.
As far as new material from Carl, I think he was saving it for the Like a Brother album. It's always been my gut feeling that at some point after the 1985 album, Carl just gave up as far as moving the Beach Boys forward as a contemporary band. Mike wanted total control, and Carl just stepped aside and let him have it. Mike had his ideas about what was accessible and commercial, and sometimes he was successful - Getcha Back, Kokomo, Wipe Out; other times, Mike's ideas didn't go over with the general public.
I think Carl's focus in the later years was the live band - just making sure the musicians played the songs the way they were supposed to be played, making sure the vocal parts were sung correctly. He heard EVERYTHING - if you hit a bum note, you'd get the "stink eye" from Carl. You didn't want to get that!

Exactly regarding recording and touring.  Brian mentions several times how scared he was even recording.  What would he have been like touring Pet Sounds?  He was not in good shape.  Carl probably saw that.  Carl may also have seen how not hands on Brian was at that point in the studio.  Brian's live vocals were erratic as was his demeanour.  The best bit about the Paley sessions IMHO was the use of organic instruments again.  It sounded like 1965 era stuff. I was excited at the time when I heard this, and it still holds up. Some of the songs are really good, with some great vocals.  We'll never know how good it could have been.  I'd guess Brian possibly lost interest at some point as he'd done that style of production 30 years prior.  A genius wants to move forward not look backwards.

The idea of not wanting to look backwards: Correct me if I'm wrong, but that was Brian's reaction at one point when they tried to bring O'Hagan in to produce. Brian said something like "Why would I do sh*t I already did 30 years ago?" because according to some reports the various interests at that time wanted a Pet Sounds volume 2 more or less. Meanwhile Brian was already writing with Andy Paley and paying out of his own pocket for all the recording sessions.

If indeed Brian "lost interest" in doing stuff he did 30 years ago - and I have found no relevant quotes or reports that that was the case with working with Paley - it makes the decision to try bringing Sean O'Hagan in even more of a non-starter, beyond the fact Brian just didn't seem to connect with O'Hagan let alone work closely with him on a whole album.

Kudos to Bruce for trying to jump-start something new for the band, but it was a misstep in retrospect in many ways, and it could be a sidebar discussion of its own on just that chapter of the saga.

Correcting earlier points too - Neither Kokomo nor Wipe Out was necessarily Mike's idea to develop for the band. The people behind the Cocktail film initiated that and wanted a song for the film and soundtrack. Wipe Out was *not* a Beach Boys released project or idea, there is a lot of misconception behind that. The song was a Fat Boys release, on their label, and it was ultimately their call and not the Beach Boys or any Beach Boy saying "hey, let's cut a track together". They did similar "oldies" including The Twist with Chubby Checker, and if anything it was trying to crack into the mainstream with something familiar and "safe" in terms of a rap group. It was also trying to hit the momentum of perhaps the best and most influential of all those attempts to take rap mainstream with rock or pop audiences, Run DMC and Aerosmith doing Walk This Way. Both Wipe Out and Kokomo ended up on Still Cruisin after their initial success because Capitol wanted a collection for BB fans to buy those songs...on Capitol instead of the Cocktail and Fat Boys respective labels.

The fact both singles did well, Kokomo obviously better, was as much to do with the people involved who brought the Beach Boys into their projects, the Cocktail producers and the Fat Boys. It wasn't Mike saying the band should try to place a song on Cocktail and cut tracks with the Fat Boys. It was the opposite.

If Mike was the driving force in a project, similar to Bruce trying to make the O'Hagan deal happen, it was when Mike brought in Joe Thomas to do the country album. Joe had no contact with the band before that, at all, until he and Mike began developing Stars & Stripes.
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« Reply #331 on: November 19, 2017, 04:22:34 PM »

In terms of the interpersonal elements between Brian and Carl...there is also more to that story that peeked through the cracks in some interviews from this era that are not as often cited or reposted. There was family stuff between them too, again not which gets discussed too often.

What I will also suggest, and perhaps this kind of commentary would be better placed on that "Unpopular Opinions" thread because i know it may ruffle some feathers, is that if Carl was considered the 'peacemaker', how well did he fill that role in the 80's up to 1996 or so?

I'd suggest not so good, considering all the turmoil that surrounded the band members to the point where Al got kicked out at one point, the relationship with Brian wasn't all that strong after Landy if it had been strong at all since 1973-4 or so, and it felt like Mike was basically running the show how he saw fit to run it, and the band dynamic behind the scenes was pretty strained. carl reportedly walked out of the Soul Searchin session, the band wouldn't be bothered to accept an invite from Brian in summer 1995 to listen to the new material and shined on him...and other cases where things were not good for a myriad of reasons.

If Carl did indeed step aside and allow Mike to call the shots on everything from the design of the live show, to personnel moves, to what music the band released, how is that trying to make peace? There is appeasement and there is making peace, and if Carl had so many issues with Brian during this era we're focusing on, which he did it seems and vice versa, I guess he was OK with letting Mike be captain of the ship and almost run it aground. The band could not get a label to even consider signing them at this time, so Carl rejects the new material which was being offered (and paid for) by Brian, decides Brian wasn't OK even though he hadn't seen Brian much from the time "Landy Phase 2" began - yet they wanted Brian in the Stars & Stripes promo video and other higher profile appearances, and he let Mike continue skippering the ship into iceberg after iceberg.

I'm just offering an opinion and suggesting maybe Carl wasn't doing the kind of peacemaking some would think he did during this time, and also suggesting some of his opinions and decisions may not have been as correct or on point as some would believe they were. And if he did check out as was suggested, then why did he check back in to shoot down aspects of Brian's hoped-for return to the band after he got free of Landy?

There are many facets to this saga, maybe too many to get into each of them.
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« Reply #332 on: November 19, 2017, 04:51:54 PM »

Looks to me like the video in question contains the unedited footage that EW producers gathered when putting together their Brian-Mike reunion feature. You'd want lots of establishing shots and other b-roll to fill space while someone narrated, for instance.

With precious few exceptions, video of BW in the studio is staged, and this was no exception. Brian, Mike, Mark, Andy and others are just hanging out to be filmed. No actual production is going on, regardless of how much or little any of the participants are saying.
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« Reply #333 on: November 19, 2017, 05:11:15 PM »

This is just an excerpt from a magazine article published June 1997, one which doesn't get published or referenced as much as others.

I'm posting this to maybe shed some more light on issues from how into the project Brian was, how he worked in the studio, and other points that may be getting misread or misinterpreted. Hopefully the words direct from the sources involved at the time this was happening will bring more perspective to the discussions. And more like this can be added later too.

>>>>>>>>>>>>

Conditions  now  are  simple  and  loose.  When  Wilson  and  Paley  have  the  urge,  they  get together at one or the other’s house and sketch out ideas on a boom box (“Brian just got a four-track mini-studio he’s learning to use, but it’s mostly boom box for us,” Paley says).  Both contribute musical and lyrical ideas until a song is ripe, then Wilson books studio time and tells Paley what kinds of players he wants to use. “I pull out the union book and take care of most of his requests,” Paley says. “We can do a lot with just the two of us, but sometimes he’ll want harmonica or a stand-up-bass. An oboe. I brought in three French-horn players once, and he only used them for four bars  of  one  song,  but,  of  course,  it  was  absolutely  perfect  and  nothing  else  would  have worked.  We’ve  had  Danny  Hutton  from  Three  Dog  Night-an  old  friend  of  Brian’s  -come  in and do some vocals, and Elliot Easton of the Cars has done guitar on some tracks. Whatever Brian wants, we get it in there."

For Wilson, a studio full of willing compatriots is a vital sanctuary. “He’s always into it.”  Paley says. “Always. You can see how much he loves working. When he was being sued by Mike Love a while back he’d come straight from the courtroom to the studio.  He’d show up in a suit and tie and just get right to work.”

Working  so  intimately  with  Wilson,  Paley has  had  the  opportunity  to  witness  some  of  the unorthodox studio techniques that have earned Wilson the sometimes burdensome “genius”tag.  “When I was a kid listening to Beach Boys records, “Paley says, “I used to go nuts trying to figure out what the hell was going on. It sounded so easy, but you’d get to a spot where it was, Jesus, is that a major chord or a minor chord?  Now that I’m in the studio with Brian,I know that sometimes he’s playing both. He’ll do things that sound like they’re going to be terribly  dissonant,  but  when  it’s  all  put  together,  it’s  beautiful.  It’s  actually  a  great  sort  of philosophy:  You  put  something  kind  of  weird  under  these  incredible  gorgeous  harmonies, and that little something often drives the harmonies to another level.  It’s been gratifying to see  some  of  his  arrangement  tricks  up  close.  It’s  like,  ‘Oh,  Ok,  I  wasn’t  crazy  when  I  heard what I thought I heard on your records."

It’s questionable whether the public will hear the new music Wilson’s been able to crate with the help of Paley. In the close-knit community of major-label executives, Wilson is still seen as an unreliable ‘60s casualty with no commercial track record of late.“Label  people  haven’t  expressed  much  interest,”  Paley  says.  “The  problem  is  that  people have heard all the stories about him and they don’t really know what he’s up to.  It would take  hearing  this  stuff  for  anybody  to  actually  get  excited  about  it.  And  I  don’t  blame anybody for having their doubts about Brian, because you look at what’s been out there and it doesn’t tell you what he’s capable of. The Beach Boys’ country album? Come on.”

Wilson still finds himself running into some of the same old obstacles. When he played some  of  the  new  tracks  for  the  Beach  Boys,  hoping  that  the  group  might  pull  together  for an album, the  members  were  politely  supportive,  but  ultimately  declined  his  invitation.  And some of Wilson’s closet associates, having heard the Paley tracks, have suggested he worry less about his finely crafted, organically rendered arrangements and try to sound “more like Kenny G.” Perhaps understandably, Wilson is not too eager to hear a stranger’s assessment of  his work, and although  he’s  happy  to  have  Paley  talk  about  the  new  music,  a  much-discussed interview with Brian never materializes.

But  when  Wilson  does  find  a  crow  willing  to  give  his  new  songs  a  chance,  he  is  clearly electrified. By the end of the San Fernando house party, the stereo has been turned off, and Wilson is seated at the piano, pounding through a fiercely rocking version of “Desert Drive,” with Paley leaning over his shoulder to contribute harmonies. Wilson’s brow is furrowed in concentration as he plays and sings, but when he finishes, the small roar of applause brings a huge smile to his face. The Rock and Roll Hall of Famer with millions of record sales to his credit  seems  absolutely,  unabashedly  delighted  that  an  audience  numbering  in  the  low double  digits-including  some  who  have  no  idea  who  Wilson  is-approves  of  his  new  song.“Brian doesn’t go out that much, “Paley says,” and he doesn’t really play like that for people. But we went out to eat after the party, and all he could talk about was, ‘Man, did you see those people!  They loved it!  That was rock ‘n’ roll!’ He got off on that more than playing an amphitheater somewhere or standing on a stage with the Beach Boys.  That little group of people in that living room grooving to ‘Desert Drive’-to him, that was the greatest. And I think with songs like that, he could still really surprise anybody that thinks he’s a lost cause. He’s still got it; everything that made him great in the past, he’s still got it in there. I know for a fact he does.”

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
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« Reply #334 on: November 19, 2017, 05:33:23 PM »

This may be an odd point to make\suggest, but maybe Brian's smoking was a factor in causing Carl to be hesitant in working with him? Perhaps Carl associated smoking with some of the more destructive or reckless behavior Brian showed during the 1970's and early 1980's, and simply didn't want to go down that road again?
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« Reply #335 on: November 20, 2017, 08:09:47 AM »

I think that the simple truth was that Carl was as square, in his own way, as Mike and Al. The Paley stuff was too hip for his taste.
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« Reply #336 on: November 20, 2017, 10:15:54 AM »

I think that without a record deal, and without a true "manager" (as in, someone steering their art and career and not just a "business manager") to steer anything, that's probably a big part of why the BBs seemed so scattered and aimless during the "Paley sessions" era. There wasn't anything firm to "turn down" or "reject", they just didn't continue working on stuff. It was all loosey goosey.

Look at how C50 developed. It was Joe Thomas bankrolling it (directly and/or indirectly), with Thomas and Capitol and the whole machine moving the whole thing forward.

Had a major record label swooped in and said "Okay Beach Boys, we want an LP produced by Brian and Don Was based on the songs Brian has written with Andy Paley and with Beach Boys vocals. So go do that and we'll give you X amount of dollars and a major promotional push and TV appearances, etc.", I would imagine they would have hashed something out. With a record label paying for and scheduling studio time, Carl would have gone in with the rest of the guys and either sang on the stuff or made specific points that he wanted addressed (re-cut backing tracks, etc.). I think, especially after SIP tanked, even Mike would have gone along with this. I think it would have been much like C50; everybody would have come in and done their thing even if they weren't the most enthusiastic they could have been.

And with a real "manager", they could have had someone with some smarts to create some marketing synergy, book Brian to do select dates with the band, etc.

Maybe all of this would have fallen apart with Carl's illness anyway.

But I think, on top of Carl's strained relationship with Brian, waffling musical tastes, and possibly finicky attitude towards some of the material, the fact that they were already by that point essentially a "Touring Band that might occasionally record something" meant there was no huge motivation for them to work their asses off to make a "Brian/Paley" Beach Boys album happen.

It's pretty sad that Brian and the BBs often were just in a "wrong place, wrong time" situation as far as wanting to work with each other. Landy pushed Brian into going solo when the BBs maybe would have had him. Then eventually Brian was talking post-Landy about wanting to do another BB album, and nobody (apart from Mike occasionally pointing out he wanted to write with Brian) was effusively and ardently pushing to do another "Pet Sounds" sort of deal where Brian does the whole thing with an outside writer and they just come in to do the vocals.

And *all* of this is separate from Brian touring. That's a whole other ball of wax. Brian indeed had less of a running track record for being hugely involved in live shows. Couple that with the live touring being the other guys' main (and kind of only) bread and butter, and you could imagine how they'd rather just go on autopilot and keep doing the same boring 28-song, 90-minute setlist instead of re-doing the whole show to change the setlist and have to actually work extra hard to integrate Brian into the shows.
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« Reply #337 on: November 20, 2017, 10:24:35 AM »

Good points.  But in 1996 Virgin did approach the group and wanted to sign them to their new V2 label.  Whether that was based on the Paley material, I don't know.
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« Reply #338 on: November 20, 2017, 10:24:59 AM »

Looks to me like the video in question contains the unedited footage that EW producers gathered when putting together their Brian-Mike reunion feature. You'd want lots of establishing shots and other b-roll to fill space while someone narrated, for instance.

With precious few exceptions, video of BW in the studio is staged, and this was no exception. Brian, Mike, Mark, Andy and others are just hanging out to be filmed. No actual production is going on, regardless of how much or little any of the participants are saying.

Good points. Considering how Mike seems relatively unfamiliar with some of those in attendance and the studio in general (I believe at one point he asks Mark Linett if it's his studio), the barebones "listening" session may have also been a bit of an introductory situation for Mike in general, to hear how things were starting to take shape.

I have to wonder if this entire thing, the photo op and "news" item, was an attempt by Brian and Mike and whole operation to garner interest from labels or somebody out there. It just seems in retrospect a bit strange to start selling a "we're back together!" story before they've even done anything.

Contrast this to C50 where there wasn't (officially anyway) a peep until they had already signed the record/tour deals, started to record stuff, etc. And *even then* the thing was shaky and could have fallen off the rails.
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« Reply #339 on: November 20, 2017, 10:27:16 AM »

Good points.  But in 1996 Virgin did approach the group and wanted to sign them to their new V2 label.  Whether that was based on the Paley material, I don't know.

Yes, that deal was reportedly on the table. I'd have to go back and read the scant few reports detailing what V2 wanted and/or was offering. I'm sure they wanted Brian heavily involved (just like CBS in 1977 and Warner Bros. in 1970), but probably weren't looking at doing what Andy Paley termed in one interview as a situation where the BBs literally could have finished off a "Brian/Andy" album full of material "in two days." I don't think anybody would say that's an ideal situation, although in retrospect it's also easy to say that maybe they *should* have done that and just went with it so that they could get an album out there and get the ball rolling.
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« Reply #340 on: November 20, 2017, 11:47:43 AM »

Discussing the V2 deal comes with a bit of a warning on discussions to follow: It's a slippery slope where there isn't all that much that has been made public via comments or interviews from those involved, and what is out there comes with a natural bias because of feelings that were hurt or a general level of frustration about what happened, and subsequently what didn't end up happening.

My own opinion (and that's all it is) based on what's out there first. Having "V2" excited about getting a Beach Boys project underway with Brian's involvement was a positive notion on the surface. Expecting it to progress as a "Pet Sounds Volume 2" type of project already set it up for stormy weather ahead. As Brian himself (I think...confirmation appreciated) said, why would he do "sh*t he already did 30 years ago"? They wanted him to repeat what he was not into doing again at that time. He was making new music and funding all the sessions and work out of his own pocket for the past several years and was excited about that. He also found collaborators with whom he was comfortable working and making music in the studio.

Add to that, there was the plan actually on the table as part of the deal to have Sean O'Hagan in charge of producing this album. Brian dug "Hawaii" after Bruce introduced that music to him and the band, but bottom line was Brian did not know O'Hagan, and after they met he didn't click with him. Simple as that.

So hinging such an important project on Brian working with someone he didn't know, had never made music with, and on a basic human level just didn't click with personally kind of doomed it, wouldn't you think?

Anyway...so the principals who were involved and have commented on it were primarily O'Hagan and Bruce Johnston, who was the rainmaker in terms of trying to bring O'Hagan into the mix.

Bruce's comments would almost be expected to have an edge to them because he did do a lot of work trying to facilitate this project, only to see it not happen. So his frustration leads to blaming Brian and Melinda Wilson to a degree for it falling apart. Yet, again, consider the expectation being put on Brian and the project to bring in a stranger to make Pet Sounds vol 2, and Bruce can feel frustrated, no one would fault him, but how much hope did they actually put behind this project considering the main expectations and variables involved?

It may also have been the last push Bruce did in terms of trying to get new music happening from "The Beach Boys" after Carl's passing and all the events surrounding it, Bruce seems to have sunk into his current role as sideman happy to play on stage next to Mike.

Sean O'Hagan - naturally his reaction would be one of "what the f*** just happened?" on all fronts. he comes in through Bruce, who tells him the way to woo the Beach Boys was to be very corporate, as the BB's love corporate. Ok. He meets Brian, and that goes as expected. Brian knows and compliments him on the Hawaii music he heard, but he really doesn't know Sean or anything about him, let alone being told this stranger was the guy he'd be making music with for an all-important album. And, Brian was excited about part of the deal which would have him able to cut a solo album AND the Beach Boys album. Brian according to the reports was more excited about the solo album, for obvious reasons since he had been recording solo since he got away from Landy. The how's and why's of that aspect of the deal are subject for another long discussion, again with expected and inherent biases depending on who commented about that.

Then consider O'Hagan gets greeted by one of Mike's attempted jokes or put-downs where he called Sean a "f****t". Hardly a greeting to get the good vibes flowing, whether Mike was joking or not.

Then consider the band must have thought O'Hagan himself as an artist was more well known or had that elusive indie "cred" that they wanted, I guess. Because according to Sean, the band wanted him to appear in front of a crowd of what Sean termed "rednecks in Cincinnatti" at a full-blown BB's show. They introduced him to the crowd like they were bringing out Springsteen or something, and O'Hagan himself says hardly anyone outside the UK at that time knew who the hell he was, and there he was smack-dab in the middle of a Lewis Carroll dream sequence. So that must have been a combination of awkward or surreal or whatever else, but that's what happened according to Sean's comments.

Was he upset at the whole thing? It would be natural, but that's what getting into the Beach Boys saga entailed at that time. And for all of the reports out there, it's not like meeting with Brian especially as a stone-cold stranger would be like having a meeting with Tom Hanks or something. It was Brian Wilson, you basically knew what you were getting into apart from the process of creating great music with him in the studio.

What really changed the game for obvious and sad reasons was Carl getting more sick and less able to contribute and play with the band leading up to his passing. Some say the album should have been the first order of business versus Brian's solo recording, some say Brian's working with Joe was not the right call stylistically at that time, etc. Many thoughts and opinions on all of that.

But the V2 deal and the whole era we're discussing is as full of contradictions, mysteries, and things left unsaid that may remain sealed for good that rivals only the Smile era and 1967 for trying to filter through everything to get to what happened.

Just consider how much surrounds it, personally and professionally.



« Last Edit: November 20, 2017, 11:50:19 AM by guitarfool2002 » Logged

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« Reply #341 on: November 20, 2017, 03:45:18 PM »

I think that's a very good post. Really reasonable.
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« Reply #342 on: November 20, 2017, 06:35:52 PM »

Looks to me like the video in question contains the unedited footage that EW producers gathered when putting together their Brian-Mike reunion feature. You'd want lots of establishing shots and other b-roll to fill space while someone narrated, for instance.

With precious few exceptions, video of BW in the studio is staged, and this was no exception. Brian, Mike, Mark, Andy and others are just hanging out to be filmed. No actual production is going on, regardless of how much or little any of the participants are saying.

You are totally wrong about that in this case......... Mark
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« Reply #343 on: November 20, 2017, 07:30:14 PM »

Interesting. ..
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« Reply #344 on: November 21, 2017, 12:32:58 AM »

I think that the simple truth was that Carl was as square, in his own way, as Mike and Al. The Paley stuff was too hip for his taste.
Hmm...I've heard a good bit of the Paley sessions, and 'hip' was not a word that came to mind. Retro, yes. 60's style recordings, yes. Some good tunes in there and some throwaways, but I don't believe it was too 'out there' for Carl, Mike and Al to appreciate. It's more likely that all had reservations about turning over recording of a new album to a guy who hadn't been a full time band member in a good many years.
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« Reply #345 on: November 21, 2017, 07:04:06 AM »

I think the main takeaway from that studio/control room footage of Mike and Brian from 1995 is that the interpersonal interactions are far more potentially interesting that what is taking place creatively/musically. It's a constant loop of a sparse backing track of nothing but drums and bass.

Even if it's serving as legit studio work, all we actually see in that control room is discussion and listening. Perhaps Mike is getting the first feel for what he plans to write lyrics for.
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« Reply #346 on: November 21, 2017, 08:37:18 AM »

I think that's a very good post. Really reasonable.

Thank you Captain.
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« Reply #347 on: November 21, 2017, 08:41:43 AM »

I think that the simple truth was that Carl was as square, in his own way, as Mike and Al. The Paley stuff was too hip for his taste.
Hmm...I've heard a good bit of the Paley sessions, and 'hip' was not a word that came to mind. Retro, yes. 60's style recordings, yes. Some good tunes in there and some throwaways, but I don't believe it was too 'out there' for Carl, Mike and Al to appreciate. It's more likely that all had reservations about turning over recording of a new album to a guy who hadn't been a full time band member in a good many years.

Did you read my post about the O'Hagan deal? If the same band members had reservations about Brian because he hadn't been a full time member in years, they didn't seem to have reservations about bringing in a total stranger and relative unknown outside the UK to produce and oversee the recording of a new album alongside Brian with a potential album deal on the table. That would seem to be a blatant contradiction but nothing outside the norm for The Beach Boys I suppose.
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« Reply #348 on: November 21, 2017, 09:40:35 AM »

Nobody ever points out that - at the time - the High Llamas were passed around and written about a lot as sort of an "up-and-coming" indie band, and they were one of the first to be associated with that kind of '60s-revival alt-rock music scene from the '90s. It was a complete accident that Johnston stumbled upon Hawaii, and by extension, a musician of Sean O'Hagan's caliber. Keep in mind that the 1995 Paley timeline coincides EXACTLY with the rise of Britpop.

It's likely that he saw potential in the High Llamas as the counterpart to Oasis or Blur or something - a case of a broken clock being right twice a day. It had nothing to do with being "hip". This is a guy who, only three years before, thought that the group should record "Shortenin' Bread" with the Fat Boys as their next big hit.

And considering that the Beach Boys totally missed the boat on punk and new wave, it's easy to see why they didn't care too much for the Paley material, and why they wasted so much time trying to break into the charts again.
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« Reply #349 on: November 21, 2017, 11:27:03 AM »

Nobody ever points out that - at the time - the High Llamas were passed around and written about a lot as sort of an "up-and-coming" indie band, and they were one of the first to be associated with that kind of '60s-revival alt-rock music scene from the '90s. It was a complete accident that Johnston stumbled upon Hawaii, and by extension, a musician of Sean O'Hagan's caliber. Keep in mind that the 1995 Paley timeline coincides EXACTLY with the rise of Britpop.

It's likely that he saw potential in the High Llamas as the counterpart to Oasis or Blur or something - a case of a broken clock being right twice a day. It had nothing to do with being "hip". This is a guy who, only three years before, thought that the group should record "Shortenin' Bread" with the Fat Boys as their next big hit.

And considering that the Beach Boys totally missed the boat on punk and new wave, it's easy to see why they didn't care too much for the Paley material, and why they wasted so much time trying to break into the charts again.

Good point. Heck, the Old Wheeler Cabinessence Board shared web space with the High Llamas board ,too.

Makes you wonder though if they had gone with O'Hagen.  The High Llamas' moment in the sun, such as it was, didn't last all that long....is there a chance that any collaboration would have been looked at as a novelty and too much "of its time"? We'll never know now, but it does make one wonder.
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