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Author Topic: Paley Sessions Discussion Thread  (Read 73823 times)
joshferrell
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« Reply #300 on: November 15, 2017, 02:13:00 PM »

I wonder if Carl was thinking that the Paley stuff sounded TOO vintage sounding,too 60's and maybe thought they sounded dated..of course that's the part of the songs I like best and I hope Brian does one more Wall of sound 60's sounding CD soon..it seem Carl was into the more mello A&R type stuff in line with Chicago and Christopher Cross while the BB were doing songs with heavy drum machines, heavy synths and heavy guitars..the Paley stuff sounded more like Today or Summer Days/Nights than Problem Child,...


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« Reply #301 on: November 15, 2017, 03:24:23 PM »

I wonder if Carl was thinking that the Paley stuff sounded TOO vintage sounding,too 60's and maybe thought they sounded dated..of course that's the part of the songs I like best and I hope Brian does one more Wall of sound 60's sounding CD soon..it seem Carl was into the more mello A&R type stuff in line with Chicago and Christopher Cross while the BB were doing songs with heavy drum machines, heavy synths and heavy guitars..the Paley stuff sounded more like Today or Summer Days/Nights than Problem Child,...




I'm trying to picture Carl yelling: More Problem Child! Less Today-sounding tunes!
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« Reply #302 on: November 15, 2017, 03:38:58 PM »

I wonder if Carl was thinking that the Paley stuff sounded TOO vintage sounding,too 60's and maybe thought they sounded dated..of course that's the part of the songs I like best and I hope Brian does one more Wall of sound 60's sounding CD soon..it seem Carl was into the more mello A&R type stuff in line with Chicago and Christopher Cross while the BB were doing songs with heavy drum machines, heavy synths and heavy guitars..the Paley stuff sounded more like Today or Summer Days/Nights than Problem Child,...




I'm trying to picture Carl yelling: More Problem Child! Less Today-sounding tunes!

Stars & Stripes! Stars & Stripes!
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« Reply #303 on: November 15, 2017, 11:20:03 PM »

I wonder if Carl was thinking that the Paley stuff sounded TOO vintage sounding,too 60's and maybe thought they sounded dated..of course that's the part of the songs I like best and I hope Brian does one more Wall of sound 60's sounding CD soon..it seem Carl was into the more mello A&R type stuff in line with Chicago and Christopher Cross while the BB were doing songs with heavy drum machines, heavy synths and heavy guitars..the Paley stuff sounded more like Today or Summer Days/Nights than Problem Child,...



I think you nailed it there. And the fact that no label ever stepped up to release the Paley sessions "as is" indicates that there was a perception that this type of production/recording would not fare well in the marketplace circa 1996. Sure, it might have received some positive reviews from the hip crowd, but that's not what the BB's were looking for in 1995. Then, as always, they were looking for a vehicle to get them back on the charts.
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« Reply #304 on: November 16, 2017, 12:09:19 AM »

Maybe there were more personal issues behind Carl's veto (among other actions during this same time) that should be considered besides the purely musical or commercial reasons that are the focus whenever this topic comes up. Brian and Carl were not exactly close and in regular contact outside the filmed appearances in the various documentaries and interviews which showed them together. In fact, consider this article in People magazine from July 1998 (written by Peter Ames Carlin), after Carl and Audree had passed: http://people.com/archive/love-and-mercy-vol-50-no-1/

It goes so far as to call the brothers estranged:

>>>>Wilson’s mind and soul were challenged last February when Carl died only weeks after their mother passed away at age 80. The brothers’ long estrangement made the loss all the harder. “He and I didn’t really talk for 25 years,” says Wilson. “We couldn’t deal with each other.” Business disputes—as well as Wilson’s 1991 autobiography, which prompted defamation lawsuits by the other Beach Boys—drove the brothers farther apart. “But he was always in my heart,” Wilson says. To Melinda, Carl and Brian never escaped their past. “They came from a dysfunctional family that had a hard time communicating,” she says. “The only real tension was trying to figure out how to love each other.”<<<<

Wanting a hit record is one thing, maybe Carl either being right or wrong about the viability of the Paley material is a factor, but there was personal tension between them as brothers and according to Brian he and Carl had not really talked for 25 years. That's a factor that doesn't get discussed much, but one which may hold a key as to why Carl seemed to be the most negative voice (and vote) within the band toward Brian's activities from producing to writing the band's new material after Brian came back in the 90's post-Landy.
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« Reply #305 on: November 16, 2017, 07:23:34 AM »

Exactly, I think a lot of interpersonal stuff was at play.

And, as best as we can tell as observers, *some* of Carl's potential issues were not unfounded. The autobiography was hurtful.

I also think some of Carl's apprehensive thoughts about Brian doing stuff like a PS tour in 1996/97 were understandable. Remember all of us who bought ticket to see Brian in 1999? We weren't sure what it would be like, or how well he would handle anchoring an entire show.

The last time Carl had been *with* Brian in the touring band where Brian was any significant part of the live show was like 1978. He wasn't necessarily wrong to at least wonder if the guy who just dipped in to sing the opening lines to "Sloop John B" and bridge on "Surfer Girl" at BB shows would be able to sing the leads on a bunch of "Pet Sounds" songs.

Ironically, Carl potentially not liking the core *material* of the Paley sessions is the least understandable of his potential gripes, where I'm less sympathetic to his possible complaints.

Sure, the Paley material was retro and Paley had a thing for that Today/Summer Days sound. The stuff certainly wasn't like what the band had been doing. But I have less sympathy for Carl (and I acknowledge we're kind of just assuming what he might have had problems with) considering most everything the BB's without Brian had been doing was stinking it up both critically and commercially, and Carl specifically wasn't even offering up material on *those* few BB projects (his last songwriting contribution on a BB album is from 1985), and nobody in the band seemed to have much of an ear for what was "commercial" and what would be "hit" material circa 1995. They also seemed to have little motivation to record at all; they could have even gone the route of shopping for songs from outside writers (not my first choice, but I wouldn't have minded if it had kept them active in the studio).
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« Reply #306 on: November 16, 2017, 08:29:04 AM »

There are alot of interesting observations  one could make about the previous comments.  My opinion is that   maybe Carl just didn't like the Andy Paley  material!  SIMPLE AS THAT . Ive heard it, and while there are  a few cool lines and melodies here  and there, Im not sure i get it either. To call it retro seems a bit of a stretch to me. The production is very raw plain and simple. And not in a good way. While i get the Wall of Sound implications, the arrangements to me do not sound like Brian at all. Just because you have a bunch of Baritone saxes in the mix doesn't mean its a wall of sound. When I listen to the clarinets in Imagination, or even the saxes in Blueberry Hill from 15 Big Ones, I believe i can hear the genius of BW!  Also, Am i the only one that can't picture  Carl singing the line" I was a Bum " and comparing it to the feeling he had singing "I may not always love you" ? Maybe im being paranoid but i keep hearing references to Stars and Stripes ( mostly jabs) Is there a joke here that im not in on? I grew up listening to country, In the late 90's my parents loved L Morgan, Willie Nelson etc. They wore out the Stars and Stripes CD. The arrangements on Warmth of the Sun and Caroline No were amazing! I can see Jimmy Webb and Brian working together in some studio and inspiring the heck out of each other. Im not getting that same feeling listening to the almost two hours of you tube renditions of the Paley sessions. Everyone should have their own opinion but based on the fact that the Paley material has been available to the public for quite awhile, and given the fact that i have NEVER heard Brian mention that he was anxious to get back into the studio with Paley  maybe Brian himself wasn't all that proud of the stuff either, and maybe he didn't push it. I agree that    Carl and Mike probably didn't like the material, and thought that Brian or they could do better. Stars and Strips much like 15 Big Ones could have been their way to slowly get Brian back in to the studio without putting too much pressure on him. Who wouldn't want to work with Jimmy Webb and Willie Nelson ?  I will say that i do not to this day get the name Stars and Stripes, although the CD  to me was a great idea if it had 5 or 6 remakes and a couple of new Brian Wilson Beach Boy songs.
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« Reply #307 on: November 16, 2017, 08:35:54 AM »

I've only listened to very little of the Paley Sessions, and to be 100% honest, I'm not overly impressed by it.   Maybe with Mike, Al, Carl, and Bruce, they could've taken the material and turned out an album of 10-12 pretty good Beach Boys songs. 

Granted, I still need to listen to more of it. 
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« Reply #308 on: November 16, 2017, 09:29:42 AM »

There are alot of interesting observations  one could make about the previous comments.  My opinion is that   maybe Carl just didn't like the Andy Paley  material!  SIMPLE AS THAT . Ive heard it, and while there are  a few cool lines and melodies here  and there, Im not sure i get it either. To call it retro seems a bit of a stretch to me. The production is very raw plain and simple. And not in a good way. While i get the Wall of Sound implications, the arrangements to me do not sound like Brian at all. Just because you have a bunch of Baritone saxes in the mix doesn't mean its a wall of sound. When I listen to the clarinets in Imagination, or even the saxes in Blueberry Hill from 15 Big Ones, I believe i can hear the genius of BW!  Also, Am i the only one that can't picture  Carl singing the line" I was a Bum " and comparing it to the feeling he had singing "I may not always love you" ? Maybe im being paranoid but i keep hearing references to Stars and Stripes ( mostly jabs) Is there a joke here that im not in on? I grew up listening to country, In the late 90's my parents loved L Morgan, Willie Nelson etc. They wore out the Stars and Stripes CD. The arrangements on Warmth of the Sun and Caroline No were amazing! I can see Jimmy Webb and Brian working together in some studio and inspiring the heck out of each other. Im not getting that same feeling listening to the almost two hours of you tube renditions of the Paley sessions. Everyone should have their own opinion but based on the fact that the Paley material has been available to the public for quite awhile, and given the fact that i have NEVER heard Brian mention that he was anxious to get back into the studio with Paley  maybe Brian himself wasn't all that proud of the stuff either, and maybe he didn't push it. I agree that    Carl and Mike probably didn't like the material, and thought that Brian or they could do better. Stars and Strips much like 15 Big Ones could have been their way to slowly get Brian back in to the studio without putting too much pressure on him. Who wouldn't want to work with Jimmy Webb and Willie Nelson ?  I will say that i do not to this day get the name Stars and Stripes, although the CD  to me was a great idea if it had 5 or 6 remakes and a couple of new Brian Wilson Beach Boy songs.

It could be just as simple as Carl not liking the material, that's a given. But there was also a personal factor involved between brothers Carl and Brian that simply doesn't get talked about as much, and maybe for obvious reasons. They were not as close as some would perhaps like to think or assume, and it's not a knock on either man, it's just one of those realities of being brothers and in this case Carl and Brian had issues between them that had been festering for years. If Brian says they barely talked for 25 years, that goes back to 1973-74 in the timeline, and events of those years related to the band's history and changes within the band can be easily traced back to those years. And reading it almost 20 years later, that single paragraph from the People article really packs a punch as it sheds a little more light on what was going on between the brothers, and it's not what I think many fans assumed was the case.

Regarding Brian's enthusiasm for the new music or lack thereof, all we have as fans to go on are the various articles and reports from that time Brian was actively working with, writing with, and recording with Don Was, Andy Paley, and even Mike Love. Brian is full of enthusiasm for what he was doing, as were those around him in every article that I can think of. In one, Brian is so excited to play the interviewer a mix of "Proud Mary" they were working on that he keeps interrupting the questions about topics like Pet Sounds to say how excited he is to play the mix. That doesn't sound like a musician who is doing something he's not into.

One interesting aspect of this era specific to Brian getting back with the band and making music with them came from the Carlin book, where it describes the band treating Brian like he wasn't up for the task, or walking on eggshells around him like they had to treat him as an invalid or something. That's the band's burden to carry, right there - As soon as Brian got out of the Landy mess, the first thing he wanted to do musically was get back to working with the Beach Boys, and when he did, yet again it seemed to be Carl who was putting up the most barriers as if he didn't want that to happen...or didn't think Brian was up to the task.

Yet consider Brian was actively writing and recording, and in the subsequent years (mid 90's up to Carl's passing) Brian worked and worked on music...while The Beach Boys did nothing new of note except tour with the dancing girls still there cranking out the oldies on stage, cut the Stars & Stripes album where they were essentially a backing vocal group for the guest artists covering their old hits, and made ridiculous TV appearances like Baywatch.

So it's pretty clear-cut to see the Beach Boys (or some Beach Boys) didn't seem to want to do any new music, and when they finally got Brian back in the fold and wanting to make new music with them, they didn't do much of anything with that opportunity. And in the next 4 years or so after the "Paley Sessions" ground to a halt, Brian was making new music and touring as a solo artist with one of the best live bands of musicians in the business who could play the music accurately and respectfully.

Stars & Stripes perhaps would have been better remembered by fans if there were some original music, I do agree, but beyond that if there were a sense that the Beach Boys were doing more than acting as guest vocalists akin to the "Tower Of Power Horns" where they just add that incredible vocal blend behind any artist who wants that sound on their music but aren't the focal point of the actual records.

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« Reply #309 on: November 16, 2017, 09:41:21 AM »

Clearly there were mixed feelings at best about the Paley material from the other guys.

I also objectively don't think the stuff is uniformly amazing. But a good album could have been molded from the best of the lot. Keep in mind there are some Brian/Andy songs we've likely never heard that may have been part of that whole cache of material.

But the problem is that everybody else in the band was either offering up bad idea or no ideas at all. If history indicated that Carl had an album's worth of songs that he was pointing to that he felt they could work on instead, then his *subjective* feelings about the Paley material would have more pull. Whereas, with Mike, he had a clear running track record of one fluke hit followed by massive failure.

It's not as if everybody in the band had previously had to sign off on *loving* every song on every previous album. Dennis clearly hated MIU. I somehow doubt Mike found "Love Surrounds Me" to be his cup of tea. I'd certainly hope Carl and Al knew the SIP material wasn't really amounting to greatness.

Some have pointed out that one of the only specifics (to some degree anyway) we have on Carl's take on the material was that he didn't like the *backing track* that Don Was had made for "Soul Searchin'." This Don Was backing track has never circulated, so none of us have ever heard it.

So Carl may have had more nitpicky, production-oriented issues with the song. But even on that front, nobody else in the band was really in a strong position to tell Don Was, who was an active, working, successful producer, that his stuff sucked.

But Carl never apparently nixed anything. It just kind of fizzled, which means I'm also not prepared to assume Carl wouldn't have been open to doing the material, perhaps re-recording some things, etc.
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« Reply #310 on: November 16, 2017, 09:51:39 AM »

There are alot of interesting observations  one could make about the previous comments.  My opinion is that   maybe Carl just didn't like the Andy Paley  material!  SIMPLE AS THAT . Ive heard it, and while there are  a few cool lines and melodies here  and there, Im not sure i get it either. To call it retro seems a bit of a stretch to me. The production is very raw plain and simple. And not in a good way. While i get the Wall of Sound implications, the arrangements to me do not sound like Brian at all. Just because you have a bunch of Baritone saxes in the mix doesn't mean its a wall of sound. When I listen to the clarinets in Imagination, or even the saxes in Blueberry Hill from 15 Big Ones, I believe i can hear the genius of BW!  Also, Am i the only one that can't picture  Carl singing the line" I was a Bum " and comparing it to the feeling he had singing "I may not always love you" ? Maybe im being paranoid but i keep hearing references to Stars and Stripes ( mostly jabs) Is there a joke here that im not in on? I grew up listening to country, In the late 90's my parents loved L Morgan, Willie Nelson etc. They wore out the Stars and Stripes CD. The arrangements on Warmth of the Sun and Caroline No were amazing! I can see Jimmy Webb and Brian working together in some studio and inspiring the heck out of each other. Im not getting that same feeling listening to the almost two hours of you tube renditions of the Paley sessions. Everyone should have their own opinion but based on the fact that the Paley material has been available to the public for quite awhile, and given the fact that i have NEVER heard Brian mention that he was anxious to get back into the studio with Paley  maybe Brian himself wasn't all that proud of the stuff either, and maybe he didn't push it. I agree that    Carl and Mike probably didn't like the material, and thought that Brian or they could do better. Stars and Strips much like 15 Big Ones could have been their way to slowly get Brian back in to the studio without putting too much pressure on him. Who wouldn't want to work with Jimmy Webb and Willie Nelson ?  I will say that i do not to this day get the name Stars and Stripes, although the CD  to me was a great idea if it had 5 or 6 remakes and a couple of new Brian Wilson Beach Boy songs.

Well, what we do know is that "Stars and Stripes" was a critical and commercial flop. Apart from what hardcore fans thought, the album wasn't well received and was in fact barely on anybody's radar.

Further, in general I think albums of artists covering themselves is just less creative and interesting.

On top of that, I think "Stars and Stripes" was pretty awful. Trite, synthetic 90s country with mostly forgettable and grating singers. The Willie Nelson track was okay (worth it just to get footage of Mike trying to correct Willie and then Willie blowing Mike off and doing it the way he wanted), Junior Brown at least brought some enthusiasm to the table. I guess Timothy B. Schmit's track was okay, and not coincidentally barely "country" at all. The rest of the stuff on the released album was forgettable and bland *at best.*

The band didn't need to get Brian comfortable with the studio (he had just recorded like 57 tracks with Andy Paley and had released TWO solo albums), and "crossing over" into country wasn't going to get them any closer to doing what fans wanted (whether that was Paley songs or just another good album written by Brian and/or the rest of the guys).

Had "Stars and Stripes Vol. 1" succeeded, what would have happened next? Undoubtedly "Stars and Stripes Vol. 2."

So yeah, when they had "Soul Searchin'" and "You're Still a Mystery" and "It's Not Easy Being Me" and "Gettin' in Over My Head" sitting in the vaults (to say nothing of the gazillion other tracks they had in the vault, "Don't Fight the Sea", etc.), it's pretty sad that they felt compelled to do *THIS* instead:

https://youtu.be/RHiExb2SYOw?t=27s
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« Reply #311 on: November 16, 2017, 10:02:45 AM »

But Carl never apparently nixed anything. It just kind of fizzled, which means I'm also not prepared to assume Carl wouldn't have been open to doing the material, perhaps re-recording some things, etc.

I agreed with the bulk of your post except this - The impression from published sources is that Carl did veto several projects during these years, centered around his concerns about Brian perhaps as much as the potential quality or success of the projects themselves. Maybe I'm mistaken but wasn't it Carl who was the catalyst behind scotching the idea of Pet Sounds live performances not just because he thought the music was too complex to play and sing but he also thought Brian wasn't able to perform it? Wasn't it Carl who was worried Brian would embarrass himself and the band if he sang too much at the Nashville Fan Fest gig? And wasn't it Carl who was behind the idea of bringing in a member of the High Llamas to "collaborate" with Brian in the wake of the Paley-Was sessions collapsing?

In each of those cases, and yes there is a fair amount of reading between the lines to be done, it feels like Carl's concerns were centered on his own issues with Brian, especially how he may have thought Brian wasn't able to do this stuff. The fact there is even a notion that Carl thought Brian might embarrass himself and the band if he performed live would seem to speak volumes on the dynamic. And it had to hurt Brian personally, and I'm guessing it did when he kept hearing "no" especially coming from his own brother.

It did seem to be Carl specifically balking at doing Soul Searchin, You're Still A Mystery, etc. to the point where he worked on the tracks but later decided he wasn't into them. That's kind of odd. But that was Carl's call.

And what can't be ignored is how a scant few years after all of these no votes from Carl, Brian was out on his own doing exactly what Carl wasn't supporting, including playing (and singing) Pet Sounds tracks on a live stage...to rave reviews. And releasing new music. And he's still out there doing it.

It makes me come back to the notion that there was personal stuff involved in this beyond just the music, and again suggesting maybe Carl was simply wrong on some of these points considering what did end up happening with both the band and Brian.
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« Reply #312 on: November 16, 2017, 10:27:16 AM »

Add to that timeline, and I realize I've talked about this before but it's relevant - In an interview with Brian conducted August 1995, he mentioned inviting the Beach Boys to his house for a listening party so he could play them more of the tracks he was working up. And despite them being described as "enthusiastic" to work again with Brian, they all canceled on him and didn't show up. That hurt Brian, and add that Aug 1995 interview to several where he says he wants to work with The Beach Boys, and had material which he was excited to present and actively working on with Paley and Was, yet the band seemed to balk if not be outright rude about even listening to it, let alone cutting more tracks. It did hurt Brian, he says it hurt him to have these cancellations and whatnot, and yet he kept saying he wanted to work with them.

At some point, isn't it a natural reaction for someone who keeps hearing "no" and can't even get his own band to come to his place to listen to new songs to just say "f*** this" and move on? The fact his brother was one of the louder voices in all of this had to hurt even more.
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« Reply #313 on: November 16, 2017, 02:07:21 PM »

It was Bruce, not Carl, who tried to get Sean O'Hagan of the High Llamas involved.

A clue to Carl's objections to the Paley material might be found in the music that Carl did write and arrange around this time : the Beckley-Lamm-Wilson lp. Maybe if the Paley stuff sounded more like Air Supply, Carl might have been more enthusiatic.
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« Reply #314 on: November 16, 2017, 03:23:48 PM »

Add to that timeline, and I realize I've talked about this before but it's relevant - In an interview with Brian conducted August 1995, he mentioned inviting the Beach Boys to his house for a listening party so he could play them more of the tracks he was working up. And despite them being described as "enthusiastic" to work again with Brian, they all canceled on him and didn't show up. That hurt Brian, and add that Aug 1995 interview to several where he says he wants to work with The Beach Boys, and had material which he was excited to present and actively working on with Paley and Was, yet the band seemed to balk if not be outright rude about even listening to it, let alone cutting more tracks. It did hurt Brian, he says it hurt him to have these cancellations and whatnot, and yet he kept saying he wanted to work with them.

At some point, isn't it a natural reaction for someone who keeps hearing "no" and can't even get his own band to come to his place to listen to new songs to just say "f*** this" and move on? The fact his brother was one of the louder voices in all of this had to hurt even more.

Wow. Compare and contrast to 1966/67 when Brian's friends would eagerly come over for listening parties when he'd invite them. How much of a let down must that have been to see how much everything had changed in his life. Brian thrives off of good vibes and excitement from others when sharing his music. And the friends who attended the SMiLE acetate listening parties were the ones that Brian's mates (at least Mike?) labelled as leaches or not good for Brian to be associated with, yet those friends seemed to be so much more supportive than Brian's own family/bandmates when one compares these experiences. So very sad.
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« Reply #315 on: November 16, 2017, 06:23:23 PM »

Wasn't Melinda also a factor in the songs not ever being released? I've read that she didn't like the material either and in turn pushed him towards working with Joe Thomas instead.
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« Reply #316 on: November 16, 2017, 11:11:39 PM »

Wasn't Melinda also a factor in the songs not ever being released? I've read that she didn't like the material either and in turn pushed him towards working with Joe Thomas instead.
I remember that being reported in Rolling Stone circa 1999.

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« Reply #317 on: November 17, 2017, 06:33:18 AM »

But Carl never apparently nixed anything. It just kind of fizzled, which means I'm also not prepared to assume Carl wouldn't have been open to doing the material, perhaps re-recording some things, etc.

I agreed with the bulk of your post except this - The impression from published sources is that Carl did veto several projects during these years, centered around his concerns about Brian perhaps as much as the potential quality or success of the projects themselves. Maybe I'm mistaken but wasn't it Carl who was the catalyst behind scotching the idea of Pet Sounds live performances not just because he thought the music was too complex to play and sing but he also thought Brian wasn't able to perform it? Wasn't it Carl who was worried Brian would embarrass himself and the band if he sang too much at the Nashville Fan Fest gig? And wasn't it Carl who was behind the idea of bringing in a member of the High Llamas to "collaborate" with Brian in the wake of the Paley-Was sessions collapsing?

In each of those cases, and yes there is a fair amount of reading between the lines to be done, it feels like Carl's concerns were centered on his own issues with Brian, especially how he may have thought Brian wasn't able to do this stuff. The fact there is even a notion that Carl thought Brian might embarrass himself and the band if he performed live would seem to speak volumes on the dynamic. And it had to hurt Brian personally, and I'm guessing it did when he kept hearing "no" especially coming from his own brother.

It did seem to be Carl specifically balking at doing Soul Searchin, You're Still A Mystery, etc. to the point where he worked on the tracks but later decided he wasn't into them. That's kind of odd. But that was Carl's call.

And what can't be ignored is how a scant few years after all of these no votes from Carl, Brian was out on his own doing exactly what Carl wasn't supporting, including playing (and singing) Pet Sounds tracks on a live stage...to rave reviews. And releasing new music. And he's still out there doing it.

It makes me come back to the notion that there was personal stuff involved in this beyond just the music, and again suggesting maybe Carl was simply wrong on some of these points considering what did end up happening with both the band and Brian.

In terms of Carl not literally nixing something, I was only referring to the Paley recordings. He may have put up stronger direct opposition to other ideas like a "Pet Sounds" tour due to not feeling Brian was up to it. But I'm also not sure how ironclad of a project something like that late 90s PS tour was. Was it just an idea floated? It seemed to be enough of a plausible idea that at least Melinda and Al both separately discussed it and that Carl didn't want to do it.

But in terms of the Paley sessions, apart from Carl apparently walking from one earlier session (I believe prior to the session for "Soul Searchin" and "You're Still a Mystery" documented by Berryhill) due by all accounts to "non-musical" reasons, I don't see any evidence Carl refused the material or refused to do a session. So he may have kinda done more like what Mike did with C50, which was to essentially put the kibosh by simply not doing any *further* work as opposed to outright canceling sessions or saying "I refuse to work on this material."

As far as the idea that Carl may have eventually worked on the material, I think it would have simply been the same sort of attrition that often led to BB projects being finished. Sometimes projects would just have enough natural momentum to get finished even if not everyone was on the same page.

Certainly, it's possible that had Carl lived longer to see Brian be able to spearhead albums and tours, his position on a lot of these issues may have changed.
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« Reply #318 on: November 17, 2017, 09:11:41 AM »

It was Bruce, not Carl, who tried to get Sean O'Hagan of the High Llamas involved.

A clue to Carl's objections to the Paley material might be found in the music that Carl did write and arrange around this time : the Beckley-Lamm-Wilson lp. Maybe if the Paley stuff sounded more like Air Supply, Carl might have been more enthusiatic.

You are correct, and I totally forgot that story until your post. Bruce had the copy of Hawaii which he brought into the band, and he was the one who met and brought O'Hagan into the meetings. The rest of that story can be told at a later time... Smiley  Good point about Carl's material too. But I do think there was more to all of it than purely musical reasons, although those factor heavily too.
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« Reply #319 on: November 17, 2017, 09:14:47 AM »

Add to that timeline, and I realize I've talked about this before but it's relevant - In an interview with Brian conducted August 1995, he mentioned inviting the Beach Boys to his house for a listening party so he could play them more of the tracks he was working up. And despite them being described as "enthusiastic" to work again with Brian, they all canceled on him and didn't show up. That hurt Brian, and add that Aug 1995 interview to several where he says he wants to work with The Beach Boys, and had material which he was excited to present and actively working on with Paley and Was, yet the band seemed to balk if not be outright rude about even listening to it, let alone cutting more tracks. It did hurt Brian, he says it hurt him to have these cancellations and whatnot, and yet he kept saying he wanted to work with them.

At some point, isn't it a natural reaction for someone who keeps hearing "no" and can't even get his own band to come to his place to listen to new songs to just say "f*** this" and move on? The fact his brother was one of the louder voices in all of this had to hurt even more.

Wow. Compare and contrast to 1966/67 when Brian's friends would eagerly come over for listening parties when he'd invite them. How much of a let down must that have been to see how much everything had changed in his life. Brian thrives off of good vibes and excitement from others when sharing his music. And the friends who attended the SMiLE acetate listening parties were the ones that Brian's mates (at least Mike?) labelled as leaches or not good for Brian to be associated with, yet those friends seemed to be so much more supportive than Brian's own family/bandmates when one compares these experiences. So very sad.

That's a good comparison to draw - In the mid 60's Brian hosted these listening parties where he wanted to play whatever new music he was working on for friends and associates and get their reactions. It was the first time Van Dyke Parks personally interacted with Brian, at a listening party where David Crosby took Van Dyke to hear advance mixes of the Sloop John B single.

Then in 1995, Brian's own band shines on him.

Keep the year 1995 in mind as there is more to be said about the timeline and the years in which all of this was happening.
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« Reply #320 on: November 17, 2017, 09:23:49 AM »

Wasn't Melinda also a factor in the songs not ever being released? I've read that she didn't like the material either and in turn pushed him towards working with Joe Thomas instead.
I remember that being reported in Rolling Stone circa 1999.



Kudos to your good memory! July 1999 RS article written by Jason Fine, that is correct. But the article says there were plans to re-record some of the tracks and make them more polished, which is exactly what we got on the GIOMH collection 5 years later. I think four of the better Paley-Wilson songs made it onto that disc, including "Soul Searchin" so it's not like the tracks never got released.

Worth noting, again this is going somewhere with the timeline...July 1999 Paley and Brian were still playing music together. So the earlier poster who commented about Brian not returning to Paley to work...not sure what timeline they had in mind, but Brian and Paley were still working on music *after* Stars & Stripes and Imagination, as the Jason Fine article and others from '97 which I can access would show.
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« Reply #321 on: November 17, 2017, 09:57:29 AM »

It appears Brian and Joe cut several "Paley" songs (backing tracks at least) during the "Imagination" sessions.

I think they often revisited the Paley *material*, but it appears they picked and chose which stuff would utilize elements of the original recordings versus re-recording from scratch.

Also, let's remember that Brian *re-cut* the lead to "You're Still a Mystery" in October of 1999. This is the lead vocal heard on the MIC set from 2013. I still haven't heard of a reason for why he did this (and it may well have had no particular reason beyond just messing around with the song), but it was done without Mark Linett (who apparently expressed surprise upon finding the new lead when compiling MIC), and was done *after* Brian and Joe split (presumably after the 1999 Japan dates and before or during the west coast tour in the Fall).

Presumably, Brian would have been doing this work with an eye towards releasing the song *solo*, as the "Beach Boys", such as they were at that moment, were heavily splintered. The idea that Brian would "Beach Boys" material solo is interesting in light of Joe Thomas's 2012 comments suggesting Brian and he (Joe) wrote stuff back in the 1997/98 that Brian earmarked specifically for the Beach Boys and refused to do solo (such as of course "That's Why God Made the Radio").
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« Reply #322 on: November 17, 2017, 09:58:24 AM »

Add to that timeline, and I realize I've talked about this before but it's relevant - In an interview with Brian conducted August 1995, he mentioned inviting the Beach Boys to his house for a listening party so he could play them more of the tracks he was working up. And despite them being described as "enthusiastic" to work again with Brian, they all canceled on him and didn't show up. That hurt Brian, and add that Aug 1995 interview to several where he says he wants to work with The Beach Boys, and had material which he was excited to present and actively working on with Paley and Was, yet the band seemed to balk if not be outright rude about even listening to it, let alone cutting more tracks. It did hurt Brian, he says it hurt him to have these cancellations and whatnot, and yet he kept saying he wanted to work with them.

At some point, isn't it a natural reaction for someone who keeps hearing "no" and can't even get his own band to come to his place to listen to new songs to just say "f*** this" and move on? The fact his brother was one of the louder voices in all of this had to hurt even more.

Wow. Compare and contrast to 1966/67 when Brian's friends would eagerly come over for listening parties when he'd invite them. How much of a let down must that have been to see how much everything had changed in his life. Brian thrives off of good vibes and excitement from others when sharing his music. And the friends who attended the SMiLE acetate listening parties were the ones that Brian's mates (at least Mike?) labelled as leaches or not good for Brian to be associated with, yet those friends seemed to be so much more supportive than Brian's own family/bandmates when one compares these experiences. So very sad.

That's a good comparison to draw - In the mid 60's Brian hosted these listening parties where he wanted to play whatever new music he was working on for friends and associates and get their reactions. It was the first time Van Dyke Parks personally interacted with Brian, at a listening party where David Crosby took Van Dyke to hear advance mixes of the Sloop John B single.

Then in 1995, Brian's own band shines on him.

Keep the year 1995 in mind as there is more to be said about the timeline and the years in which all of this was happening.

The yr Brian called Carl an asshole. There's also an interview from around that time where, if i recall correctly, Brian tells Melinda that he wants to buy a monkey cause they fling sh*t at people  LOL
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« Reply #323 on: November 17, 2017, 10:04:38 PM »

Add to that timeline, and I realize I've talked about this before but it's relevant - In an interview with Brian conducted August 1995, he mentioned inviting the Beach Boys to his house for a listening party so he could play them more of the tracks he was working up. And despite them being described as "enthusiastic" to work again with Brian, they all canceled on him and didn't show up. That hurt Brian, and add that Aug 1995 interview to several where he says he wants to work with The Beach Boys, and had material which he was excited to present and actively working on with Paley and Was, yet the band seemed to balk if not be outright rude about even listening to it, let alone cutting more tracks. It did hurt Brian, he says it hurt him to have these cancellations and whatnot, and yet he kept saying he wanted to work with them.

At some point, isn't it a natural reaction for someone who keeps hearing "no" and can't even get his own band to come to his place to listen to new songs to just say "f*** this" and move on? The fact his brother was one of the louder voices in all of this had to hurt even more.

Wow. Compare and contrast to 1966/67 when Brian's friends would eagerly come over for listening parties when he'd invite them. How much of a let down must that have been to see how much everything had changed in his life. Brian thrives off of good vibes and excitement from others when sharing his music. And the friends who attended the SMiLE acetate listening parties were the ones that Brian's mates (at least Mike?) labelled as leaches or not good for Brian to be associated with, yet those friends seemed to be so much more supportive than Brian's own family/bandmates when one compares these experiences. So very sad.

That's a good comparison to draw - In the mid 60's Brian hosted these listening parties where he wanted to play whatever new music he was working on for friends and associates and get their reactions. It was the first time Van Dyke Parks personally interacted with Brian, at a listening party where David Crosby took Van Dyke to hear advance mixes of the Sloop John B single.

Then in 1995, Brian's own band shines on him.

Keep the year 1995 in mind as there is more to be said about the timeline and the years in which all of this was happening.

The yr Brian called Carl an asshole. There's also an interview from around that time where, if i recall correctly, Brian tells Melinda that he wants to buy a monkey cause they fling sh*t at people  LOL
I remember reading that interview where Brian called Carl (and Mike) an @$$hole. Brian was liable to say about anything back then, but that comment made me sad. If anyone in the Beach Boys DIDN'T deserve to be called an a---ole, it was Carl. Carl was the strong, quiet presence that kept them together. As soon as he was gone, they splintered.
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« Reply #324 on: November 18, 2017, 04:35:21 AM »

I think one of the major reason Carl didn't want to work with Brian at that point is right there in that interview footage from the stuff shot during that Baywatch Nights session.  Carl realised his brother needed to get better before touring etc.
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