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Author Topic: Paley Sessions Discussion Thread  (Read 20311 times)
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« Reply #275 on: November 05, 2017, 09:34:50 AM »

Watching that Brian interview..  you just have to feel for the guy who has given My and Your life's a special .... I don't know, but it's made mine enriched. God bless BDW.
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« Reply #276 on: November 05, 2017, 12:29:07 PM »

So I finally saw it...yeah...one could tell Brian was having issues neurologically thanks to what Landy had him on previously.  Took a while to get better. Was kind of weird to see him smoking..I thought he had quit the previous year?
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« Reply #277 on: November 05, 2017, 01:46:06 PM »

It's pretty shocking to see firsthand, isn't it? We're only seeing some of the more mild after-effects there. And consider this was when Brian was still recovering from whatever quack treatments and bad meds Landy and his team had him on, he basically had to be detoxed to get all of that stuff cleared out and get the proper medication for his condition, as well as whatever harm those Landy meds did. Imagine if Brian had not gotten away from that destructive quackery when he did, and he had been taking those med cocktails of Landy's even one month or a year later than he did. It would have destroyed the man if not killed him at some point.

So that clip is only one very minor example of why some of us get really, really pissed off when some idiots start spouting off and drawing direct lines between where Brian has been over the past 23 years and where he was under Landy's "regimen", and suggesting he's being kept drugged and controlled in recent years as if it were 1991 all over. What a crock of sh*t.

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« Reply #278 on: November 05, 2017, 02:11:48 PM »

Quote
We're only seeing some of the more mild after-effects there.

WHAT?! You mean it was worse?! Oh my God Sad   Kind of hits me hard, cause since my second stroke I kind of get like that, just not as bad. Really hit me to see Brian like that. Hurt.
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« Reply #279 on: November 05, 2017, 02:24:27 PM »

Quote
We're only seeing some of the more mild after-effects there.

WHAT?! You mean it was worse?! Oh my God Sad   Kind of hits me hard, cause since my second stroke I kind of get like that, just not as bad. Really hit me to see Brian like that. Hurt.

Consider that clip was some time after Brian had gotten away from Landy and was getting the right treatments and meds from doctors who actually knew what they were doing, he basically had to get all that toxic sh*t ordered by Landy out of his system,  then also get on the correct treatments for his actual condition on top of basically detoxing all of the stuff that harmed him under Landy's regimen. It's mind-boggling to even speculate - let's say - even what it was like the week before and immediately after Brian got free of all that crap and was actively taking all those incorrect meds.
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« Reply #280 on: November 05, 2017, 02:54:04 PM »

Sad
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« Reply #281 on: November 05, 2017, 03:50:12 PM »

Not sure what others think, but despite the...struggle on display in the interview here, I think the Diane Sawyer interview is scarier.  Is it going to far to say that there is the odd glimmer of Brian's impending recovery on show here?
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« Reply #282 on: November 05, 2017, 08:02:19 PM »

Seeing Brian in this kind of condition may have had something to do why Carl was not so enthused about a new Brian-produced Beach Boy record. He may have felt that Brian just wasn't up to it. Brian himself talks about how scared he was. I do think that working with the Beach Boys brings up a lot of old issues for Brian
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« Reply #283 on: November 06, 2017, 10:20:52 AM »

Not sure what others think, but despite the...struggle on display in the interview here, I think the Diane Sawyer interview is scarier.  Is it going to far to say that there is the odd glimmer of Brian's impending recovery on show here?

I don't think much of anyone would disagree that the Diane Sawyer interview was among, if not the lowest points in that whole saga. Publically anyway.

But, it could have only helped the actual case to get him removed from Landy, and it certainly helped fans understand how dire the Landy situation was. So the Sawyer interview did prove useful in that sense.

But there are different types of "cringey" interviews. Stuff like the Sawyer interview is cringe-worthy in the moment, but it's most alarming because of the larger picture it paints. Whereas, there are other Brian interviews which are a trainwreck even if they didn't immediately portend something catastrophic.

There are some early 80s bits with Brian and the guys that are pretty bad. There was one that used to be YouTube years ago from around 1978-ish or so where Brian and Al are sitting next to each other, and the interviewer asks Brian about Charles Manson, and *Al* goes off on the interviewer, seeming to actually go into protective mode for Brian.

Back to Brian and Landy, there are even some pretty early examples of Brian being pretty zonked under Landy's care. There's an unedited Westwood One radio interview tape from 1985 where Brian's promoting the BB '85 album, and he sounds out of it even on that one. He can't remember the existence of the "Surf's Up" album, etc.
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« Reply #284 on: November 06, 2017, 10:28:52 AM »

Seeing Brian in this kind of condition may have had something to do why Carl was not so enthused about a new Brian-produced Beach Boy record. He may have felt that Brian just wasn't up to it. Brian himself talks about how scared he was. I do think that working with the Beach Boys brings up a lot of old issues for Brian

I think it was far more complicated than that, as far as Carl-Brian was concerned.

Brian presented *more than album's worth* of material to the group in 1994/95. He had essentially pre-recorded more than an album with Andy Paley. He had proved he was up to it, especially with Paley and Was there to help.

We also have that Cindy Lee Berryhill report of Brian and the band's session for one (or both?) of the songs they recorded together, and Brian seemed to have his wits about him there as well (and again, if Carl had any misgivings, they had not one but TWO producers there to help), with the only potential issue coming up during that first-hand encounter being Mike being kind of a d**khead during the session (Brian was on the ball enough to actually razz Mike during session).

The problem with anybody stepping into the Paley Sessions situation and saying Brian wasn't up to it is that:

A) Brian had produced such a quantity of material already
B) They had co-producers working on it with them
C) NOBODY, including Carl, was offering *an alternative* as far as an album project to work on. Carl nor Mike nor anybody else had a huge bag of songs ready to record.

It's pretty clear that Carl and Bruce didn't think a lot of the Paley material was that great. Mike seemed pretty ambivalent about it. Al in his only comments I've seen has described liking the material (there's little doubt in my mind that Al would have gladly sang backups on 20 Paley songs, no problem).

So on Carl's end, "the material sucks" is probably closer to something that sounds plausible than "Brian's not up to it."

If Carl had walked into the 1986 Gary Usher sessions, then *maybe* he could have argued "Brian's not up to it."

But in 1995, Brian had *two* solo albums already in the pipeline, and arguably TWO albums worth of material in the can recorded with Andy Paley.
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« Reply #285 on: November 06, 2017, 11:55:18 PM »

Seeing Brian in this kind of condition may have had something to do why Carl was not so enthused about a new Brian-produced Beach Boy record. He may have felt that Brian just wasn't up to it. Brian himself talks about how scared he was. I do think that working with the Beach Boys brings up a lot of old issues for Brian
Honestly, I didn't think Brian looked all that bad in that interview. One thing for sure, he was totally real there, not being controlled at all. And I relate to "that Brian", because I have lived my life in fear of...well, pretty much everything. The man has a lot of courage.
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« Reply #286 on: November 07, 2017, 07:24:58 AM »

One (very short) part of the video I thought was neat was the footage of Brian playing at the piano, probably not knowing he's being filmed right then. Anyone else notice at 55:16 he briefly plays the first verse of "Heroes And Villains"?? Very interesting considering this is in the mid-90s.
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« Reply #287 on: November 07, 2017, 08:40:41 AM »

One (very short) part of the video I thought was neat was the footage of Brian playing at the piano, probably not knowing he's being filmed right then. Anyone else notice at 55:16 he briefly plays the first verse of "Heroes And Villains"?? Very interesting considering this is in the mid-90s.

I heard that as the song they were currently cutting, not H&V.
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« Reply #288 on: November 07, 2017, 11:18:52 AM »

I heard H&V too.
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« Reply #289 on: November 07, 2017, 12:54:11 PM »

Yeah I think he was either recording/practicing a piano part for what they were tracking, but then he goes into a quick divulgence, plunking the intro chords to Heroes and Villains (can you blame him?? That song is quintessential BW piano pounding)... to me it's the bass notes that confirm it's H&V. It's not the clearest, but it's there.

It's a step down from the original (just checked with my piano haha), og is Dflat and in this clip he starts at Bmaj. But it's got the same exact rhythm, bass melody, and progression as H&V. Just an interesting moment that caught my attention. I'd love to see BW just sit and play a piano when he thinks no one is watching/listening just to hear whatever comes to him in the moment.
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« Reply #290 on: November 07, 2017, 02:29:02 PM »

Yeah I think he was either recording/practicing a piano part for what they were tracking, but then he goes into a quick divulgence, plunking the intro chords to Heroes and Villains (can you blame him?? That song is quintessential BW piano pounding)... to me it's the bass notes that confirm it's H&V. It's not the clearest, but it's there.

It's a step down from the original (just checked with my piano haha), og is Dflat and in this clip he starts at Bmaj. But it's got the same exact rhythm, bass melody, and progression as H&V. Just an interesting moment that caught my attention. I'd love to see BW just sit and play a piano when he thinks no one is watching/listening just to hear whatever comes to him in the moment.


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« Reply #291 on: November 07, 2017, 04:05:33 PM »

Seeing Brian in this kind of condition may have had something to do why Carl was not so enthused about a new Brian-produced Beach Boy record. He may have felt that Brian just wasn't up to it. Brian himself talks about how scared he was. I do think that working with the Beach Boys brings up a lot of old issues for Brian

I think it was far more complicated than that, as far as Carl-Brian was concerned.

Brian presented *more than album's worth* of material to the group in 1994/95. He had essentially pre-recorded more than an album with Andy Paley. He had proved he was up to it, especially with Paley and Was there to help.

We also have that Cindy Lee Berryhill report of Brian and the band's session for one (or both?) of the songs they recorded together, and Brian seemed to have his wits about him there as well (and again, if Carl had any misgivings, they had not one but TWO producers there to help), with the only potential issue coming up during that first-hand encounter being Mike being kind of a d**khead during the session (Brian was on the ball enough to actually razz Mike during session).

The problem with anybody stepping into the Paley Sessions situation and saying Brian wasn't up to it is that:

A) Brian had produced such a quantity of material already
B) They had co-producers working on it with them
C) NOBODY, including Carl, was offering *an alternative* as far as an album project to work on. Carl nor Mike nor anybody else had a huge bag of songs ready to record.

It's pretty clear that Carl and Bruce didn't think a lot of the Paley material was that great. Mike seemed pretty ambivalent about it. Al in his only comments I've seen has described liking the material (there's little doubt in my mind that Al would have gladly sang backups on 20 Paley songs, no problem).

So on Carl's end, "the material sucks" is probably closer to something that sounds plausible than "Brian's not up to it."

If Carl had walked into the 1986 Gary Usher sessions, then *maybe* he could have argued "Brian's not up to it."

But in 1995, Brian had *two* solo albums already in the pipeline, and arguably TWO albums worth of material in the can recorded with Andy Paley.

I go with the material sucked theory as for Carl's disinterest.....Brian and many of his fans apparently lost their ability regarding critical judgment when it came to his nineties, ahem, "work"......
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« Reply #292 on: November 07, 2017, 04:07:32 PM »

Is Mike the greatest on SIP..... Roll Eyes
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« Reply #293 on: November 08, 2017, 07:02:41 AM »

Seeing Brian in this kind of condition may have had something to do why Carl was not so enthused about a new Brian-produced Beach Boy record. He may have felt that Brian just wasn't up to it. Brian himself talks about how scared he was. I do think that working with the Beach Boys brings up a lot of old issues for Brian

I think it was far more complicated than that, as far as Carl-Brian was concerned.

Brian presented *more than album's worth* of material to the group in 1994/95. He had essentially pre-recorded more than an album with Andy Paley. He had proved he was up to it, especially with Paley and Was there to help.

We also have that Cindy Lee Berryhill report of Brian and the band's session for one (or both?) of the songs they recorded together, and Brian seemed to have his wits about him there as well (and again, if Carl had any misgivings, they had not one but TWO producers there to help), with the only potential issue coming up during that first-hand encounter being Mike being kind of a d**khead during the session (Brian was on the ball enough to actually razz Mike during session).

The problem with anybody stepping into the Paley Sessions situation and saying Brian wasn't up to it is that:

A) Brian had produced such a quantity of material already
B) They had co-producers working on it with them
C) NOBODY, including Carl, was offering *an alternative* as far as an album project to work on. Carl nor Mike nor anybody else had a huge bag of songs ready to record.

It's pretty clear that Carl and Bruce didn't think a lot of the Paley material was that great. Mike seemed pretty ambivalent about it. Al in his only comments I've seen has described liking the material (there's little doubt in my mind that Al would have gladly sang backups on 20 Paley songs, no problem).

So on Carl's end, "the material sucks" is probably closer to something that sounds plausible than "Brian's not up to it."

If Carl had walked into the 1986 Gary Usher sessions, then *maybe* he could have argued "Brian's not up to it."

But in 1995, Brian had *two* solo albums already in the pipeline, and arguably TWO albums worth of material in the can recorded with Andy Paley.

I go with the material sucked theory as for Carl's disinterest.....Brian and many of his fans apparently lost their ability regarding critical judgment when it came to his nineties, ahem, "work"......

Well, you seem to have disdain for pretty much everything and everyone connected to the Beach Boys, certainly including most of the music, so that's not the "critical" voice I would go to in trying to look at that 90s material.

The point I would make is that if Carl thought the Paley material sucked across the board, then he was nuts. I don't think he literally thought that, and I think his apprehensive nature about tackling that material had as much to do with politics and his weird relationship with Brian as anything else. But I think he could and probably was also selectively nitpicky about stuff like the Paley material, and he and the rest of the band by 1995 had little credibility left in this regard. They weren't offering much themselves, were on autopilot on tour, and what they were choosing to do (SIP, Stars and Stripes) was sub-par to put it politely.

The Paley material wasn't great from top to bottom, but there was a strong album there with potential critical success with overdubbed BB voices.
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« Reply #294 on: November 08, 2017, 02:06:23 PM »

Seeing Brian in this kind of condition may have had something to do why Carl was not so enthused about a new Brian-produced Beach Boy record. He may have felt that Brian just wasn't up to it. Brian himself talks about how scared he was. I do think that working with the Beach Boys brings up a lot of old issues for Brian

I think it was far more complicated than that, as far as Carl-Brian was concerned.

Brian presented *more than album's worth* of material to the group in 1994/95. He had essentially pre-recorded more than an album with Andy Paley. He had proved he was up to it, especially with Paley and Was there to help.

We also have that Cindy Lee Berryhill report of Brian and the band's session for one (or both?) of the songs they recorded together, and Brian seemed to have his wits about him there as well (and again, if Carl had any misgivings, they had not one but TWO producers there to help), with the only potential issue coming up during that first-hand encounter being Mike being kind of a d**khead during the session (Brian was on the ball enough to actually razz Mike during session).

The problem with anybody stepping into the Paley Sessions situation and saying Brian wasn't up to it is that:

A) Brian had produced such a quantity of material already
B) They had co-producers working on it with them
C) NOBODY, including Carl, was offering *an alternative* as far as an album project to work on. Carl nor Mike nor anybody else had a huge bag of songs ready to record.

It's pretty clear that Carl and Bruce didn't think a lot of the Paley material was that great. Mike seemed pretty ambivalent about it. Al in his only comments I've seen has described liking the material (there's little doubt in my mind that Al would have gladly sang backups on 20 Paley songs, no problem).

So on Carl's end, "the material sucks" is probably closer to something that sounds plausible than "Brian's not up to it."

If Carl had walked into the 1986 Gary Usher sessions, then *maybe* he could have argued "Brian's not up to it."

But in 1995, Brian had *two* solo albums already in the pipeline, and arguably TWO albums worth of material in the can recorded with Andy Paley.

I go with the material sucked theory as for Carl's disinterest.....Brian and many of his fans apparently lost their ability regarding critical judgment when it came to his nineties, ahem, "work"......

Well, you seem to have disdain for pretty much everything and everyone connected to the Beach Boys, certainly including most of the music, so that's not the "critical" voice I would go to in trying to look at that 90s material.

The point I would make is that if Carl thought the Paley material sucked across the board, then he was nuts. I don't think he literally thought that, and I think his apprehensive nature about tackling that material had as much to do with politics and his weird relationship with Brian as anything else. But I think he could and probably was also selectively nitpicky about stuff like the Paley material, and he and the rest of the band by 1995 had little credibility left in this regard. They weren't offering much themselves, were on autopilot on tour, and what they were choosing to do (SIP, Stars and Stripes) was sub-par to put it politely.

The Paley material wasn't great from top to bottom, but there was a strong album there with potential critical success with overdubbed BB voices.
Carl may have had some reservations about basically handing the band over to Brian after many years of Brian barely being involved in the group. I can understand that. But the group hadn't come up with anything without him, except for a giant turkey of an album called Summer In Paradise, and they were about to drop another turkey from the helicopter - Stars and Stripes. Surely what Brian and Andy were coming up couldn't have been any worse than those birds.
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« Reply #295 on: November 15, 2017, 12:24:34 AM »

Yeah I think he was either recording/practicing a piano part for what they were tracking, but then he goes into a quick divulgence, plunking the intro chords to Heroes and Villains (can you blame him?? That song is quintessential BW piano pounding)... to me it's the bass notes that confirm it's H&V. It's not the clearest, but it's there.

Contrary to popular belief, H&V is not the first nor the only pop song to have a 5-1 bass riff.
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« Reply #296 on: November 15, 2017, 07:51:52 AM »

The Paley material had the potential to serve as the basis for a Beach Boys lp every bit as good as 'Holland'. Carl's taste level seems to have atrophied sometime in the late 70's.

Much as some folks rightly complain about Mike walking away from the reunion band in 2012, Carl rejecting the Paley stuff in '95 was more significant.
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« Reply #297 on: November 15, 2017, 10:36:17 AM »

The Paley material had the potential to serve as the basis for a Beach Boys lp every bit as good as 'Holland'. Carl's taste level seems to have atrophied sometime in the late 70's.

Much as some folks rightly complain about Mike walking away from the reunion band in 2012, Carl rejecting the Paley stuff in '95 was more significant.

I think Al, and I guess Matt as a de facto Beach Boy at that point in time, were the only members of the band outside of Brian who may have actually actively been "into" the Paley stuff. Carl apparently had some issues (although I'm not convinced he just hated the stuff across-the-board; it seems more like he had general misgivings about Brian and was also being nitpicky maybe about the material), Bruce is on record not being impressed with the material, and Mike has seemed ambivalent at best (and the report of Mike's behavior at the vocal sessions indicates he was not in the same "thumbs up" frame of mind as he was during that "Baywatch Nights" report shown on TV). The few times Mike has been asked years later about the Paley material, he hasn't "dissed" it, but he hasn't jumped out of his seat with regret that they didn't finish the material.

Had the BBs helped Brian finish a "Paley Sessions Beach Boys Album", I'm not sure that would have guaranteed any long term success for the guys or created a basis for a long-lasting reunion. It's all "what ifs", but presumably Carl would have still been gone in 1998, and the Al-Mike stuff was already going on.

So it's entirely possible that even if Brian and Mike had forged some epic, strong, reborn partnership on the back of "Baywatch Nights", a post-1998 Beach Boys might have been Brian-Mike-Bruce and no Al.

I think Carl punting on the Paley stuff was a potential bad step artistically, and a bad step in general "creative" terms, just in terms of striving to create truly new material.

But in terms of sort of rounding out the band's story, to sort of ride off into the sunset together on a true high where they were recording and touring together and doing it all well, I think Mike punting on C50 was worse. C50 healed so much so quickly, and it had potential in a way that I don't think even the Paley project did. C50 was not simply a group of good songs that they could have polished off. C50 was an artistic *and* commercial way forward for everything to run amazingly well on all fronts. Solid (not mind-blowing, but solid) reviews on their new music, with the potential for more Brian/Mike collaborations going forward in some fashion, and the best live reviews for the band from both fans and press since arguably Rolling Stone named then band of the year in 1974 based solely on touring. By continuing on past 2012 together, they could have *built* on what was already their biggest success in eons. They could have done a PS tour. They could have toured the globe *and* done a Vegas residency. Cut solo albums and do side gigs in between. They could have done it all. Hell, finish off the Paley stuff too!
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« Reply #298 on: November 15, 2017, 12:24:13 PM »

I think there could have even been M&B/BW gigs, without having the band break up, like what happened with C50. The whole group could have done huge, important shows, and solo gigs when they wanted.
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« Reply #299 on: November 15, 2017, 12:28:03 PM »

Well, I don't think Mike touring as "The Beach Boys" would work continuously woven in and out of reunion dates. There would have to be either a name change or a longer-term plan and cut-off date for respective tours.

Ideally, what they could have done is reserve the "Beach Boys" name for the reunion lineup, and then Mike could use the "Endless Summer Band" or "California Beach Band" name for "off-season" shows, if he was inclined or felt the need to do more shows than whatever the reunion lineup could have booked. 
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