gfxgfx
 
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
logo
 
gfx gfx
gfx
680598 Posts in 27600 Topics by 4068 Members - Latest Member: Dae Lims March 28, 2024, 09:30:29 PM
*
gfx*HomeHelpSearchCalendarLoginRegistergfx
gfxgfx
0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.       « previous next »
Pages: 1 ... 4 5 6 7 8 [9] 10 11 12 13 14 15 Go Down Print
Author Topic: Paley Sessions Discussion Thread  (Read 73778 times)
Lonely Summer
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Online Online

Posts: 3932


View Profile
« Reply #200 on: March 02, 2017, 11:00:51 PM »

With some of Mike's own songwriting projects that have leaked out via boots like "Baker's Dozen" and others, we can look back and hear pretty much where his mind was at when it came to making new songs for either the Beach Boys or whatever solo work he had in mind. The majority of them - how can I say this diplomatically - are to my ears just not that good, and if it were aiming right at a commercial effort, they're not commercial either. In the early 90's, say the time between Kokomo breaking out as a hit and Summer In Paradise, listen to what Mike was recording and demo'ing with Baker and others. It's all there on those recordings, everything from the themes of summer and sun and fun, the wordplay on his name using "love" at key points in the lyrics, the vapid if not horrid synth and drum machine backing tracks, the seeming need to recreate the vocal stacks Brian had with 3 tracks in 1964 done digitally with someone filling in where Mike and Bruce's ranges didn't go...

And some of the songs that did come out: Island Fever is no doubt Kokomo part 2, an attempt several years later to rewrite Kokomo with the same backing track feel more or less, same themes...maybe a few years later than Capitol actually wanted such a follow-up to Kokomo when they inked that deal which produced Still Cruisin'.

Speaking of Still Cruisin, How about Somewhere Near Japan? Some fans enjoy it, there was a songwriters roundtable where Mike and Bruce talk highly of that song and how Capitol focused on a Duran Duran release or something which stiffed the release in some ways. Yet what is the song under all the postmortems? It's another Papa John Phillips song, with the same team of songwriting and production plastic surgeons who came in to give it a facelift and make it more of a hook-filled tune.

Strip it down to the John Phillips original recording and concept, and it was a song about his daughter McKenzie lost on a drug binge trying to score dope. Apparently the title refers to an answer she gave on the phone.

So is that "hit making" material to run with to follow up Kokomo's success? Is that where some thought the Beach Boys should be going?

Put all of that together, listen to the results from Baker's Dozen to SIP to wherever else Mike's efforts were going at this time, and then compare that to what was happening with the Was/Paley sessions.

I guess my issue is still for all of the various doubts and shuffling of feet regarding "new material" surrounding the 94-95-96 period that eventually led to a country tribute album of covers, look at where the band was being skippered in terms of new material and releasing new music in the years after Kokomo became a hit.
I think Somewhere Near Japan could have been a hit if it had come out as a single right after Kokomo. I mean right after; say, Nov/Dec 1988, not a full year later. They waited too long to followup Kokomo, and when they did, it was the semi-okay Still Cruisin', which to me, always sounded like it was missing something when I heard it on the radio. If you're a die-hard BB's fan, it's an okay track, but it's not gonna win over a ton of new fans the way Kokomo did. SNJ might have.
Logged
HeyJude
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 10030



View Profile WWW
« Reply #201 on: March 03, 2017, 06:34:42 AM »

I think the fact that the band didn't seem to do a lot of great material in the late 80s and early 90s (e.g. hunks of "Still Cruisin" and most of SIP) may not have a *ton* to do with the lack of success. Poor critical showings certainly don't help. But I think "Kokomo" may have in part just been an anomaly, and the band could have had something amazing in their back pocket that still failed.

"Somewhere Near Japan" is interesting in that I'm with many if not most fans that it's a good track, probably the best original song on a BB album post-1985 and pre-C50 (not much competition there, though). But does it stand out in part because a lot of the stuff around it was rather "meh" in quality?

If we *do* want to get into the nuts and bolts of it, it is true that both "SNJ" specifically and the "Still Cruisin'" album as a whole probably hit way too late if the idea was mainly to just piggyback on the success of "Kokomo." Also, both "versions" of SNJ have problems. The "album" version is the better mix, but it is too long for "radio" what with the excessively long intro. But the "single mix" is a rather limp mix that lacks the full, punchy (yet "real" sounding, compared to "Still Cruisin'") drums of the album mix.

The band could have used the early 80s/Cetera "Chicago" template to try continue to wring out success, the template not being so much the specific musical style (I don't think the BBs had to go as "ballad heavy" as Chicago did with their singles), but an outside producer (and possibly writer) with strong commercial senses. No offense to Terry Melcher, but while I'm not a David Foster fan musically and even moreso of the guy personally (especially the post-success David Foster), the Beach Boys could have tried to seek out a David Foster-type with better commercial sensibilities and stronger sort of "A&R" skills than Terry Melcher.

I'm not a huge expert on the list of producers that were hot circa 1988/89, and who knows, maybe the hottest producers would have balked at working with the BBs. But Terry Melcher, while maybe a good guy to help Mike co-write a few songs here and there (Melcher was clearly able to write some catchy chord changes/melodies), was not the guy to run the whole thing. And he was the main producer on the majority of the "new" "Still Cruisin'" tracks and of course SIP is essentially a 90s "Mike and Terry" album with Al, Carl, and Bruce guesting.

Then again, the band hasn't seemed to have a great track record working with outside producers. Levine in '85 was a one-shot deal, and that project had a number of pitfalls. Neither Andy Paley nor Don Was (and Was was a pretty powerful and hot producer in the early-mid 90s) could corral the band to even finish anything.

It does appear that in some cases, if the band wanted to finish a project, they had to kind of leave the album in question in the hands of one main band member and a producer and kind of sit down and shut up. Al, Carl, and Bruce did this in handing full creative control of SIP to Mike and Terry Melcher. The album tanked, but nobody really left the project with any super ill will as far as I can tell. And then 20 years later, Mike, Al, and Bruce (and Dave) handed *most* control of TWGMTR over to Joe Thomas and Brian, with much better results but also with more ill feelings, at least from one member (Mike).
« Last Edit: March 03, 2017, 06:59:58 AM by HeyJude » Logged

THE BEACH BOYS OPINION PAGE IS ON FACEBOOK!!! http://www.facebook.com/beachboysopinion - Check out the original "BEACH BOYS OPINION PAGE" Blog - http://beachboysopinion.blogspot.com/
guitarfool2002
Global Moderator
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 9996


"Barba non facit aliam historici"


View Profile WWW
« Reply #202 on: March 03, 2017, 06:59:04 AM »

Even "Still Cruisin'" the song isn't all that special, is it? If we look at it in retrospect, Kokomo was universal in a way that appealed to casual fans of the Beach Boys who would buy a new Beach Boys record or enjoy one perhaps by default, and it also appealed to the fans of the film "Cocktail" and MTV where it got a heap of exposure and a boost to new listeners. The lyrics were universal and relatable, going back to the original Phillips version, and even without Mike's "Aruba, Jamaica..." contribution it had the escapism theme people connected with. It also sounded different melodically in some ways, like Carl's phrases.

But "Still Cruisin'" falls back into the cliches that have hampered Mike's songwriting, IMO. First the melody, chords and hook are a direct rip from Dick & DeeDee ""Mountains High". Next, the lyrical theme is the same tired cliche that worked, kind of, back in 1968 with Do It Again. "Hey kids, we're still here, having fun fun fun in the sun and cruisin in our custom cars...Let's Get Back Together And Do It Again...in 1989!"

It's too cliche, and it falls into the trap that Kokomo avoided, which was Kokomo removing the focus from the image of the band in the appeal of the lyrics. It wasn't the Beach Boys talking about how they used to go to Kokomo for fun in the sun and afternoon delights, it was a more universal statement of those sentiments of pure escapism. If Mike had tried to write a theme like "do you remember when we went to Kokomo, all those years ago, well join us again because we're still here and still surfin and still cruisin and blah blah..." it wouldn't have made it to the Cocktail soundtrack because it was about Mike and the band's image and not universal.

That's an exaggeration, but consider it as a factor.

I can dig the other points being made, but still - Look at what we do have of Mike's songwriting output and demos from this same time when the band needed a followup to Kokomo (or even prior to that). There isn't a shred of commercial meat on that bone. It's too much cliche, hamfisted attempts to be retro to a point of unintentional parody, and it is full of all the trappings like "love" wordplay and this notion of going back to the beach and the drag strip which bog down any attempts to be good.

And no matter what the track sounded like, "Somewhere In Japan" is still a fact-based song about a rock star's drug-addled daughter lost in the Far East trying to score junk. If that theme would have been a viable Beach Boys followup to a song about cavorting, drinking, and screwing in a tropical paradise getaway...I must be in the wrong universe.  Smiley
Logged

"All of us have the privilege of making music that helps and heals - to make music that makes people happier, stronger, and kinder. Don't forget: Music is God's voice." - Brian Wilson
HeyJude
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 10030



View Profile WWW
« Reply #203 on: March 03, 2017, 07:09:28 AM »

I'm not particularly trying to cut Mike slack, because he was coming up with some really weak stuff, but I don't heavily weigh the stuff like the Adrian Baker material from the 90s. Most of it was super-cheap re-recordings of old hits with a handful of ostensibly "new" songs sprinkled in there. I've never had the sense even Mike felt those few "new" songs were substantive; indeed, he ended up slipping a small number of them on *super obscure" projects like a CD given away at a car dealership.

I think the paucity of material Mike may have had around that time, and the hack quality of the material, speaks less to Mike's ability to write and more to the more basic idea that he just didn't care much and had little drive to write, record, and/or release new material.

To the degree Mike had that drive, I find it hard to believe even someone with the ego of Mike Love could have *not* been impacted by the unequivocal failure of SIP. I don't think Mike looked at the failure of SIP and had a epiphany about his life or about his talent. But I think it easily could have dictated that he subsequently had *even less* drive to do much creatively of his own accord. So he'd still show up if someone else sort of set the pins up for him to knock down, like Brian with Paley, or Adrian Baker recording cheesy BB remakes in his garage, or Bruce spearheading "Symphonic Sounds", or something turn-key like "Stars and Stripes."
« Last Edit: March 03, 2017, 07:10:42 AM by HeyJude » Logged

THE BEACH BOYS OPINION PAGE IS ON FACEBOOK!!! http://www.facebook.com/beachboysopinion - Check out the original "BEACH BOYS OPINION PAGE" Blog - http://beachboysopinion.blogspot.com/
guitarfool2002
Global Moderator
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 9996


"Barba non facit aliam historici"


View Profile WWW
« Reply #204 on: March 03, 2017, 07:21:33 AM »

I'm not particularly trying to cut Mike slack, because he was coming up with some really weak stuff, but I don't heavily weigh the stuff like the Adrian Baker material from the 90s. Most of it was super-cheap re-recordings of old hits with a handful of ostensibly "new" songs sprinkled in there. I've never had the sense even Mike felt those few "new" songs were substantive; indeed, he ended up slipping a small number of them on *super obscure" projects like a CD given away at a car dealership.

I think the paucity of material Mike may have had around that time, and the hack quality of the material, speaks less to Mike's ability to write and more to the more basic idea that he just didn't care much and had little drive to write, record, and/or release new material.

To the degree Mike had that drive, I find it hard to believe even someone with the ego of Mike Love could have *not* been impacted by the unequivocal failure of SIP. I don't think Mike looked at the failure of SIP and had a epiphany about his life or about his talent. But I think it easily could have dictated that he subsequently had *even less* drive to do much creatively of his own accord. So he's still show up if someone else sort of set the pins up for him to knock down, like Brian with Paley, or Adrian Baker recording cheesy BB remakes in his garage, or Bruce spearheading "Symphonic Sounds", or something turn-key like "Stars and Stripes."

I think it may speak directly to Mike's ability to write new material because if there was any time the band needed new material, it was when Capitol was basically demanding it from the band and putting the fate of a new record deal in the hands of new material. The challenge was put on the band, and the captain of the ship who in 1989 was suggesting they didn't need Brian Wilson to make hit records failed to deliver. It speaks volumes to me that even with actual demand for a strong follow up from the label which was hot on the band for the first time in 20 years, look at what Mike actually did have to offer and what was both in the vaults and eventually released. There was nothing beyond the cliches, cheesy retro attempts, and the continual notion of remaking and "updating" old classics and hits with drum machines and synths.

Mike I think absolutely had the drive to make hit records because he was saying he could do it on his terms and still have a hit like Kokomo, and Capitol was looking at the Beach Boys minus Brian to deliver another Kokomo, and that was putting the responsibility on Mike as the captain. Yet - what did he have? Or more pertinent, what did he offer as proof? Somewhere In Japan, minus the drug addict theme on the lyrics, was yet another John Phillips song like Kokomo which Mike brought to the operating room with Melcher to try to craft a hook or two for the existing song just as they did on Kokomo. Nearly everything else in his vault was ideas to remake and update or sing about parties and fun in the sun like "Do It Again (parts 2-34)".

Fast forward to 2017 - The notion of remaking the old hits with new production sounds and guests like John Stamos is currently on the table. "Getcha Back" is the new version of this. In the 25 years since Summer In Paradise, minus 2012, where's the beef in terms of something new or even collaborations to produce something new?

I think it is also ironic how Mike all but needs partners and collaborators to write and record anything, yet he still has that bee in his bonnet over Brian working with collaborators not named "Love". I think it also gives him an out in terms of being able to criticize those efforts as falling short or not delivering, yet when his own efforts sunk like a stone, he simply ignores those failures and won't comment on them.

« Last Edit: March 03, 2017, 07:23:22 AM by guitarfool2002 » Logged

"All of us have the privilege of making music that helps and heals - to make music that makes people happier, stronger, and kinder. Don't forget: Music is God's voice." - Brian Wilson
JK
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 6053


Maybe I put too much faith in atmosphere


View Profile
« Reply #205 on: March 03, 2017, 07:23:39 AM »

But "Still Cruisin'" falls back into the cliches that have hampered Mike's songwriting, IMO. First the melody, chords and hook are a direct rip from Dick & DeeDee ""Mountains High".

Yes indeed! I'll hear both songs in a new light from now on. Grin

For the uninitiated:

https://youtu.be/zMt2-unbu_E

A quite extraordinary record...
Logged

"Ik bun moar een eenvoudige boerenlul en doar schoam ik mien niet veur" (Normaal, 1978)
You're Grass and I'm a Power Mower: A Beach Boys Orchestration Web Series
the Carbon Freeze | Eclectic Essays & Art
guitarfool2002
Global Moderator
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 9996


"Barba non facit aliam historici"


View Profile WWW
« Reply #206 on: March 03, 2017, 07:26:30 AM »

But "Still Cruisin'" falls back into the cliches that have hampered Mike's songwriting, IMO. First the melody, chords and hook are a direct rip from Dick & DeeDee ""Mountains High".

Yes indeed! I'll hear both songs in a new light from now on. Grin

For the uninitiated:

https://youtu.be/zMt2-unbu_E

A quite extraordinary record...

It is a classic record, I agree! One of those that if you hear it by chance on an oldies station or stream, you drop what you're doing and listen. When I hear "Still Cruisin'" my first thought is the Dick & DeeDee record because it is the same hook and chord progression. Literally the same.
Logged

"All of us have the privilege of making music that helps and heals - to make music that makes people happier, stronger, and kinder. Don't forget: Music is God's voice." - Brian Wilson
The LEGENDARY OSD
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1948

luHv Estrangement Syndrome. It's a great thing!


View Profile
« Reply #207 on: March 03, 2017, 07:27:02 AM »

I remember hearing SNJ when it came out and felt flat out embarrassed. It did feature some great vocals from Carl and Al but from first listen, it always sounded like a candidate for a lame B side. Chance of being hit fodder? Not in anyone's wildest dreams, not even with heavy rotation on your favorite radio station. Poorly written, choppy in direction and over produced.
Logged

myKe luHv, the most hated, embarrassing clown the world of music has ever witnessed.
SMiLE Brian
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 8432



View Profile
« Reply #208 on: March 03, 2017, 07:43:15 AM »

But "Still Cruisin'" falls back into the cliches that have hampered Mike's songwriting, IMO. First the melody, chords and hook are a direct rip from Dick & DeeDee ""Mountains High".

Yes indeed! I'll hear both songs in a new light from now on. Grin

For the uninitiated:

https://youtu.be/zMt2-unbu_E

A quite extraordinary record...

It is a classic record, I agree! One of those that if you hear it by chance on an oldies station or stream, you drop what you're doing and listen. When I hear "Still Cruisin'" my first thought is the Dick & DeeDee record because it is the same hook and chord progression. Literally the same.
I wonder what would happen if you asked Mike about borrowing the melody to this classic? Smiley
Logged

And production aside, I’d so much rather hear a 14 year old David Marks shred some guitar on Chug-a-lug than hear a 51 year old Mike Love sing about bangin some chick in a swimming pool.-rab2591
HeyJude
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 10030



View Profile WWW
« Reply #209 on: March 03, 2017, 07:56:08 AM »


Mike I think absolutely had the drive to make hit records because he was saying he could do it on his terms and still have a hit like Kokomo, and Capitol was looking at the Beach Boys minus Brian to deliver another Kokomo, and that was putting the responsibility on Mike as the captain.

I think he has always had the desire to have a hit record, just as most everybody would. As for drive, I think he waxed and waned on that drive over the years. I think a myriad of failures through the late 70s and 80s took a lot of wind (and thus drive) out of their sails to make new material. Carl left the band in 1981 in part because the rest of the guys wouldn't make another album.

I think "Kokomo" certainly reinvigorated this drive in Mike, and the pinnacle of that drive is indeed the SIP album. But after that? I'm sure Mike always *wanted* a hit, but I don't see much evidence of any drive. He has remained rather passive ever since. There are ways to be driven beyond writing new material. There's no evidence he was, within BRI, pushing to woo a producer or a new manager to get them success. He was sailing on the one feather in his cap, which was touring. That was and will always be a "safe" place, where adulation and approval are pretty much guaranteed. Not to mention where pretty much *all* the money was/is.

When asked, Mike always did and still does *say* he wants to and believes he *can* write good new stuff with Brian. So he has some level of passive desire to have more hits, and there is a *belief*, or at least a *stated belief* (in the realm of it always being easier to *say* something than to actually *do* it) that he has the ability to write a hit with Brian. But not much drive. He actively antagonized and insulted Sean O'Hagan (the guy Bruce had brought in!), claimed to be so unfamiliar with Andy Paley *during* the recording of Paley's songs that he didn't even know Paley and Brian had written the songs, seemed to have a somewhat weird attitude towards Don Was (and obviously didn't let Was crack the whip and make a BB album), and we certainly know how Mike reacted to Joe Thomas and TWGMTR and C50 and all of that.

So I see a pretty strong lack of active drive and motivation to actually *do* something (and for mostly reasons that functionally make sense, mainly to do with touring being more fun, more lucrative, and since 1998 with nobody else to answer to), mixed with a fair amount of bluster and bluffing about what he things he *could* be doing, and then all of that mixed in with a track record in the 90s and 2000s of being an ambivalent-at-best participant (Paley material), actively working against it (O'Hagan), and seemingly seething anger temporarily bandaged by, I can only guess, a big cash guarantee (Joe Thomas and TWGMTR and C50).
« Last Edit: March 03, 2017, 07:58:14 AM by HeyJude » Logged

THE BEACH BOYS OPINION PAGE IS ON FACEBOOK!!! http://www.facebook.com/beachboysopinion - Check out the original "BEACH BOYS OPINION PAGE" Blog - http://beachboysopinion.blogspot.com/
SMiLE Brian
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 8432



View Profile
« Reply #210 on: March 03, 2017, 08:06:07 AM »

The SOT bootlegs of studio sessions are interesting evidence of Mike having little patience for the studio even when they had hits. He is constantly a distraction with the other BBs and doesn't add much to BW's work in crafting songs. Add that lack of effort and 30 years of hazy memories of those times and the Kokomo era studio material makes sense.
Logged

And production aside, I’d so much rather hear a 14 year old David Marks shred some guitar on Chug-a-lug than hear a 51 year old Mike Love sing about bangin some chick in a swimming pool.-rab2591
guitarfool2002
Global Moderator
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 9996


"Barba non facit aliam historici"


View Profile WWW
« Reply #211 on: March 03, 2017, 08:16:52 AM »

I agree with that HeyJude, but there was also the point where Kokomo became a hit without Brian's involvement and Mike was actually called on to deliver something to Capitol or in general that would sustain that renewed interest in the band making new records. He either didn't or couldn't deliver the goods. I think if there had not been the attitude of "See? We can make hits without Brian's involvement", perhaps there would have been more slack cut. But when the facts of the matters are laid out, including what has Mike actually written and what has he done in terms of songwriting and releasing music, there is little to nothing to suggest a backup of some of his comments and claims.

It's fine to tout and boast songwriting expertise when there is a legacy of hits and classics from the 60's Capitol years, for one example. But where is there something to hang those claims on from the 80's to the present?

Those examples given of working with O'Hagan and the head-scratching comments and incidents related to Was/Paley and all related are worth noting for sure. It's fine to boast, but where is anything to back up the boasts and the claims?

I think it is also telling how the failures and the non-starters in terms of songs and releases like SIP are somehow wiped clean from the record, there are barely any mentions of those failures beyond an implication like "people would like it if they gave it a chance". Instead of any self-appraisal, we get instead that same finger of blame pointed at Capitol for putting Duran Duran above Mike's "Somewhere Near Japan" single, various collaborators getting in the way of Mike's writing with Brian, various nefarious forces and "handlers" getting in the way of Mike writing with Brian, how the market isn't receptive enough to new music from the Beach Boys, the lack of this or that...it all serves to deflect from what could be the case made how Mike simply doesn't have the songs to do something commercial to match what Mike thinks he can produce with Brian if the conditions were exactly as he wants them to be. Brian-Mike-piano-room. It's like setting a standard that doesn't exist and using that standard as an excuse and an imaginary straw-man to finger the blame for a lack of songs or commercial success.

It also reminds me how many interviews of the past 25+ years where Mike was teasing a new album of his music, and we have nothing. Except talk of remakes and updates of old Beach Boys hits. 25+ years and nothing substantial. Even the Christmas single was a remake and update of a late-70's throwaway that may never have seen the light of day had the band Phoenix not blown the dust off of it for a Bill Murray special.
Logged

"All of us have the privilege of making music that helps and heals - to make music that makes people happier, stronger, and kinder. Don't forget: Music is God's voice." - Brian Wilson
The LEGENDARY OSD
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1948

luHv Estrangement Syndrome. It's a great thing!


View Profile
« Reply #212 on: March 03, 2017, 08:55:16 AM »

I agree with that HeyJude, but there was also the point where Kokomo became a hit without Brian's involvement and Mike was actually called on to deliver something to Capitol or in general that would sustain that renewed interest in the band making new records. He either didn't or couldn't deliver the goods. I think if there had not been the attitude of "See? We can make hits without Brian's involvement", perhaps there would have been more slack cut. But when the facts of the matters are laid out, including what has Mike actually written and what has he done in terms of songwriting and releasing music, there is little to nothing to suggest a backup of some of his comments and claims.

It's fine to tout and boast songwriting expertise when there is a legacy of hits and classics from the 60's Capitol years, for one example. But where is there something to hang those claims on from the 80's to the present?

Those examples given of working with O'Hagan and the head-scratching comments and incidents related to Was/Paley and all related are worth noting for sure. It's fine to boast, but where is anything to back up the boasts and the claims?

I think it is also telling how the failures and the non-starters in terms of songs and releases like SIP are somehow wiped clean from the record, there are barely any mentions of those failures beyond an implication like "people would like it if they gave it a chance". Instead of any self-appraisal, we get instead that same finger of blame pointed at Capitol for putting Duran Duran above Mike's "Somewhere Near Japan" single, various collaborators getting in the way of Mike's writing with Brian, various nefarious forces and "handlers" getting in the way of Mike writing with Brian, how the market isn't receptive enough to new music from the Beach Boys, the lack of this or that...it all serves to deflect from what could be the case made how Mike simply doesn't have the songs to do something commercial to match what Mike thinks he can produce with Brian if the conditions were exactly as he wants them to be. Brian-Mike-piano-room. It's like setting a standard that doesn't exist and using that standard as an excuse and an imaginary straw-man to finger the blame for a lack of songs or commercial success.

It also reminds me how many interviews of the past 25+ years where Mike was teasing a new album of his music, and we have nothing. Except talk of remakes and updates of old Beach Boys hits. 25+ years and nothing substantial. Even the Christmas single was a remake and update of a late-70's throwaway that may never have seen the light of day had the band Phoenix not blown the dust off of it for a Bill Murray special.

Case absolutely nailed by HJ and GF. Just the case of Sean O'Hagan in itself is mind numbing to say the least. Can you possibly imagine Brian teaming up with someone as inventive as Sean and the results it possibly could have produced? What we haven't been able to hear because of the jealous, ego drenched, screwed up paranoid mind of myKe luHv is just criminal. After a High Llamas concert, I had the opportunity to talk to Sean about Brian and their getting together to produce some material. He barely saw Brian let alone write with him because of luHv's interference. Instead, we get warmed over, third rate slop from him and his collaborators.  Roll Eyes
Logged

myKe luHv, the most hated, embarrassing clown the world of music has ever witnessed.
HeyJude
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 10030



View Profile WWW
« Reply #213 on: March 03, 2017, 09:05:49 AM »

I have no idea if Sean O'Hagan could have produced something great. But for Mike to *introduce* himself to the guy in the fashion that he did, to insult him behind a lame "you don't get my sense of humor" tone (and that's being kind to Mike; I'm not even sure he was trying to make a joke), is unprofessional at its core.

Can you imagine Mike saying that stuff to George Martin or Phil Ramone or Quincy Jones or something?
Logged

THE BEACH BOYS OPINION PAGE IS ON FACEBOOK!!! http://www.facebook.com/beachboysopinion - Check out the original "BEACH BOYS OPINION PAGE" Blog - http://beachboysopinion.blogspot.com/
HeyJude
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 10030



View Profile WWW
« Reply #214 on: March 03, 2017, 09:16:33 AM »

Mike has seemed to often find studio work, and rehearsing (for tours) to be rather tedious, and I suppose weirdly to his credit he has at least at times not been shy about that.

As I recall, if you listen to the extant "rehearsal" recordings done at Al's studio in Big Sur for the late 1993 "boxed set" tour, Mike isn't even present. I can only guess, but I guess he felt he didn't need to burn a bunch of time rehearsing "Take A Load Off Your Feet" and "Wonderful" and "Vegetables" and all of that.

I think, as is human nature I guess, he has more enthusiasm for something when it's *his* thing. I have no reason to doubt he was probably much more "into" the SIP sessions in 1992 than the TWGMTR sessions in 2011/2012. Listen to him talk about the ending suite on TWGMTR in that "Rolling Stone" article. He talks about it as if he's listening to freeform jazz or something, as if he's wholly unable to relate to it simply because he didn't have a hand in writing it. Even John F***ing Stamos is literally standing there next to Mike telling Mike the songs are brilliant and Mike seems to be hedging.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2017, 09:17:50 AM by HeyJude » Logged

THE BEACH BOYS OPINION PAGE IS ON FACEBOOK!!! http://www.facebook.com/beachboysopinion - Check out the original "BEACH BOYS OPINION PAGE" Blog - http://beachboysopinion.blogspot.com/
guitarfool2002
Global Moderator
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 9996


"Barba non facit aliam historici"


View Profile WWW
« Reply #215 on: March 03, 2017, 10:09:01 AM »

Interesting point on the rehearsal issues with Mike, from another discussion and posting of an interview with Carl from the early 80's, it seems that was an issue with Carl at that time too. Maybe a bigger factor in certain issues than was thought?

>>>As for playing with the Beach Boys, Carl agreed to do some dates with the band in April of 1982, but again the lack of formal rehearsal time irked him:

"Everything was rushed; it was very mechanical. There was resistance to rehearsing out of habit. But it all finally came together at the last minute. In 1983 they'll be a lot more rehearsals, new faces, new songs... I may open some shows with my new band." <<<

So if Mike shined on the rehearsals for the "Box Set Tour" in 1993 for whatever reasons, it could have indicated a pattern going back at least a decade. Interesting info. It seemed that Carl wanted the rehearsal time for the live shows more than perhaps Mike if there are more examples of this. "Resistance to rehearsing out of habit", is Carl referring to Mike?
Logged

"All of us have the privilege of making music that helps and heals - to make music that makes people happier, stronger, and kinder. Don't forget: Music is God's voice." - Brian Wilson
JK
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 6053


Maybe I put too much faith in atmosphere


View Profile
« Reply #216 on: March 03, 2017, 10:38:24 AM »

But "Still Cruisin'" falls back into the cliches that have hampered Mike's songwriting, IMO. First the melody, chords and hook are a direct rip from Dick & DeeDee ""Mountains High".

Yes indeed! I'll hear both songs in a new light from now on. Grin

For the uninitiated:

https://youtu.be/zMt2-unbu_E

A quite extraordinary record...

It is a classic record, I agree! One of those that if you hear it by chance on an oldies station or stream, you drop what you're doing and listen.

Yes. That snare, for example. And the vocal stack is really weird. Dee Dee Phelps describes it in her book Vinyl Highway, admittedly for what was to have been the A-side (it got flipped along the way), but it's the same set-up:

"We got together and I had the lyrics to a song called 'I Want Someone' and [Dick] had this melody and it fit the same lyrics as if it had been written together. He sang his melody to my lyrics and I picked it up pretty quick 'cause I hear harmony. I sang my harmony to it. He turned on the tape recorder and recorded it. Then when he was playing it back, I heard another harmony. As I say, I hear harmonies. ... So, I sang another harmony, a third part and then Dick not to be bested by that, sang falsetto in unison with his low voice and it sounded really amazing. It sounded like these four voices, but there were only two of us." 
Logged

"Ik bun moar een eenvoudige boerenlul en doar schoam ik mien niet veur" (Normaal, 1978)
You're Grass and I'm a Power Mower: A Beach Boys Orchestration Web Series
the Carbon Freeze | Eclectic Essays & Art
DonnyL
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 1990



View Profile WWW
« Reply #217 on: March 03, 2017, 11:03:45 AM »

No way any of the released material that followed "Kokomo" would have been hits in any alternate universe in my opinion ... "Kokomo" was a fluke.

"Soul Searchin'", if released in the mid-'90s and promoted properly (as a 'Beach Boys as artistic force' return to form) would have in my opinion.

Every Beach Boys or Beach Boys-related release since Keepin' the Summer Alive suffers from a bad pseudo-contemporary production. The Paley session material actually sounds good.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2017, 11:04:23 AM by DonnyL » Logged

HeyJude
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 10030



View Profile WWW
« Reply #218 on: March 03, 2017, 11:32:55 AM »

I also think searching for a hit *Single* was a losing battle anyway. By the 90s (and certainly today), "legacy" acts like McCartney were doing well on the *albums* charts, and getting "album of the year" grammy nods.

In the 90s, I believe the singles charts were calculated by a mixture of sales and radio airplay numbers, and the only thing that would have had lower numbers than singles sales for the BBs would have been radio airplay numbers for new material.

So I think looking at single songs by the time the band hit the 90s and trying to figure out what would have or could have been a "hit single" is missing the point (and maybe some of the BBs were still thinking of it that way in the 90s, which would have further hindered them).

I don't think any *single* pulled from the Paley sessions would have or could have been a smash hit. Much like McCartney scored a #2 spot on the charts and an "album of the year" Grammy nod for his "Flaming Pie" in 1997 while the single pulled form the album in the US tanked, this would have been the best scenario for the BBs in 1995/96. And I think this is really the case (or could have been the case) with any 1989 album or 1992 album as well.

They could have and should have focused on a strong *album* (a catchy single hitting radio and VH1 back in the day certainly wouldn't have hurt of course), and then strong performance on the albums chart and good critical notices, and potential Grammy nominations, would have been the possible outcome.

"Soul Searchin'" wouldn't have likely been a "hit single" in 1995/96. But it could have been pushed to radio and especially VH1 which was still playing McCartney all the time in the mid 90s, and all of that could have helped push an album.
Logged

THE BEACH BOYS OPINION PAGE IS ON FACEBOOK!!! http://www.facebook.com/beachboysopinion - Check out the original "BEACH BOYS OPINION PAGE" Blog - http://beachboysopinion.blogspot.com/
Lonely Summer
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Online Online

Posts: 3932


View Profile
« Reply #219 on: March 03, 2017, 02:27:41 PM »

I also think searching for a hit *Single* was a losing battle anyway. By the 90s (and certainly today), "legacy" acts like McCartney were doing well on the *albums* charts, and getting "album of the year" grammy nods.

In the 90s, I believe the singles charts were calculated by a mixture of sales and radio airplay numbers, and the only thing that would have had lower numbers than singles sales for the BBs would have been radio airplay numbers for new material.

So I think looking at single songs by the time the band hit the 90s and trying to figure out what would have or could have been a "hit single" is missing the point (and maybe some of the BBs were still thinking of it that way in the 90s, which would have further hindered them).

I don't think any *single* pulled from the Paley sessions would have or could have been a smash hit. Much like McCartney scored a #2 spot on the charts and an "album of the year" Grammy nod for his "Flaming Pie" in 1997 while the single pulled form the album in the US tanked, this would have been the best scenario for the BBs in 1995/96. And I think this is really the case (or could have been the case) with any 1989 album or 1992 album as well.

They could have and should have focused on a strong *album* (a catchy single hitting radio and VH1 back in the day certainly wouldn't have hurt of course), and then strong performance on the albums chart and good critical notices, and potential Grammy nominations, would have been the possible outcome.

"Soul Searchin'" wouldn't have likely been a "hit single" in 1995/96. But it could have been pushed to radio and especially VH1 which was still playing McCartney all the time in the mid 90s, and all of that could have helped push an album.
I agree that in the 90's, it would have been pointless for the BB's to expect a hit single, but in 1988/89, it was still a possibility. What I had really hoped the guys would do in the wake of Kokomo's success was a new studio album - not a compilation masquerading as a new album - that was more artistically expressive - something along the lines of Brian's solo album. Sure, put a couple songs on there that could follow Kokomo on the charts, but also find some material that could equal Melt Away or There's So Many or Let it Shine (I'm not expecting the group would've been willing to do something like Rio Grande). It's true that Kokomo was only #1 for a week, but it was in the Hot 100 for something like 6 months, it was a huge hit all over the world. Of course the whole situation would have been better if they'd already recorded an album. I remember when the Kinks had a surprise top 40 hit in 1983 with Come Dancing. Their Arista albums had sold well, but it had been ages since they'd had a hit single. Fortunately, they had an album, State of Confusion, to back it up, and the album made it to #12 in Billboard while Come Dancing peaked at #6. Then they followed it up with the similarly themed Don't Forget to Dance and had a top 30 hit. You have to strike while the iron is hot, because top 40 audiences have short memories. The Beach Boys in the 80's were not a top 40 band; their songs did much better on the AC charts. I think Getcha Back was #1 there; California Dreamin' was an AC top tenner; Still Cruisin' also made the AC top 10 in Billboard.
Logged
Bicyclerider
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 2132


View Profile
« Reply #220 on: March 04, 2017, 07:55:52 AM »

Kokomo was an incredible blown opportunity for Mike and the Beach Boys to follow up that hit with a good album and possibly another hit single.  The problem:  no decent material, and we all know what Mike was coming up with on his own.  Why didn't they just repeat the Kokomo "formula" - find some good songs by outside writers which Mike and Carl could add some Beach Boy-isms and vocal hooks, work out some co-writing credits?  The reluctance to look outside the BB circle doomed their resurgence.  After a big hit like Kokomo songwriters would jump at giving their songs to the BB if they could repeat that success. 

Why didn't they do it?  Mike "money" love thought he could do it himself and thereby keep all the songwriting/publishing monies.  But he couldn't, and the publishing monies were nonexistent because the records didn't sell.
Logged
guitarfool2002
Global Moderator
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 9996


"Barba non facit aliam historici"


View Profile WWW
« Reply #221 on: March 04, 2017, 08:15:59 AM »

They did repeat the Kokomo formula nearly to the letter - Somewhere Near Japan - John Phillips, Scott McKenzie, Melcher and Love as plastic surgeons trying to graft hooks onto the existing song as was done with Kokomo, same synths and production sounds too. But as I detailed earlier in the thread, the song's subject matter was far from universal unless Papa John and his daughter McKenzie's drug-addled experiences were what people wanted to relate to versus tropical escapism and paradise found lyrical content.

Mike had nothing substantial to offer except his usual bluster and bragging rights amplified by the Cocktail/Kokomo success. That has played out over how many decades now. Yet there is always an out to be found, an excuse card to play.
Logged

"All of us have the privilege of making music that helps and heals - to make music that makes people happier, stronger, and kinder. Don't forget: Music is God's voice." - Brian Wilson
Jay
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 5985



View Profile
« Reply #222 on: March 04, 2017, 10:32:42 AM »

See, I always thought of SNJ as an anti-Kokomo song. To me it's everything that Kokomo isn't. It's an "adult" and "mature" sounding modern day Beach Boy's song, without the cliche "radio friendly", or "ear worm" qualities of Kokomo.
Logged

A son of anarchy surrounded by the hierarchy.
♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇
Pissing off drunks since 1978
Global Moderator
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 11844


🍦🍦 Pet Demon for Sale - $5 or best offer ☮☮


View Profile WWW
« Reply #223 on: March 04, 2017, 10:49:31 AM »

Agreed. It is a direction that I would've liked them to explore further...they attempted the same sound with SIP's "Strange Things Happen".
Logged

Need your song mixed/mastered? Contact me at fear2stop@yahoo.com. Serious inquiries only, please!
Jay
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 5985



View Profile
« Reply #224 on: March 04, 2017, 10:59:33 AM »

Agreed. It is a direction that I would've liked them to explore further...they attempted the same sound with SIP's "Strange Things Happen".
If they had been able to come up with a full album of that quality, they just might have been able to save face and avoid the "traveling jukebox" shows of the last three or so years that we had still had Carl.
Logged

A son of anarchy surrounded by the hierarchy.
gfx
Pages: 1 ... 4 5 6 7 8 [9] 10 11 12 13 14 15 Go Up Print 
gfx
Jump to:  
gfx
Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines Page created in 1.017 seconds with 22 queries.
Helios Multi design by Bloc
gfx
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!