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Author Topic: 19 years ago today  (Read 11713 times)
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« Reply #50 on: February 07, 2017, 09:35:49 PM »

Handlers?
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« Reply #51 on: February 08, 2017, 04:36:39 AM »

Let's not forget the fact that Carl and the rest of the group were hearing music tracks arranged by Don Was. It's easy for us to say that Soul Searchin' and Still A Mystery are great songs, when we've only heard the Andy Paley tracks for the songs. For all we know, what the group was hearing might have sounded like SIP part II.
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« Reply #52 on: February 08, 2017, 04:38:21 AM »

Handlers?
BW's hands on hamburger... Wink
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« Reply #53 on: February 08, 2017, 06:14:07 AM »

Let's not forget the fact that Carl and the rest of the group were hearing music tracks arranged by Don Was. It's easy for us to say that Soul Searchin' and Still A Mystery are great songs, when we've only heard the Andy Paley tracks for the songs. For all we know, what the group was hearing might have sounded like SIP part II.

I believe c-man confirmed in the aftermath of the MIC set what I had already read a long time ago (and what my ears told me), which is that the one and only version of "You're Still a Mystery" we've heard all these years is the Don Was-produced backing track. This would also explain the flipped production credits on the two "reunion" songs on the MIC set. Was's name is last on "Soul Searchin'", and first on "You're Still a Mystery."

I don't know if Brian and Andy Paley did their own pre-Was version of "You're Still a Mystery" (it certainly seems plausible of course). But if they did, we've never heard it.

So the version we've heard of YSAM is the same version Carl heard (obviously with the exception of Brian's re-recorded '99 lead on the MIC set).

As for "Soul Searchin'", Carl indeed heard a different backing track from what we heard. It's certainly possible the Was backing track was vastly different. I tend to wonder *how* different it could have been considering the "Paley" version must have been at more or less the same tempo (and certainly of course in the same key), as they were able to graft the Was BB vocals onto the Paley backing track without any digital stretching or pitching or anything like that.

Was tended to use excellent session musicians (check out the guys playing on IJWMFTT), and his productions of that era sounded nothing like Terry Melcher's production on "Summer in Paradise." SIP was using drum sequencers, while Don Was used guys like Jim Keltner. Don't get me wrong; I was never 100% convinced Was was like the perfect guy to be producing the band. But, I think his attempt was to be something like what Joe Thomas ended up doing on C50; a guy with production skills and musical skills, but also a sort of organizational guy that could keep everyone playing nice, and almost a sort of A&R guy. I think Was could have produced a good album, and my main beef with his stuff from that era was sticking his backing vocal guys on everything. Presumably, with the *full* BB complement in place, he was not going to use those guys on a full BB album, so I think it could have been good.
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« Reply #54 on: February 08, 2017, 06:33:19 AM »

I think the mistake in the reunion sessions was to rely strictly on Brian and his 'handlers' for the material. Brian hadn't been a fully participating Beach Boy for many years. The way forward should have been to take the best of Brian's material with Paley, and get some new songs from the other BB's (if they had any). I'm sure Carl and Al had a few tunes stored away. I can't fault the guys for being a bit suspicious of Brian's new group of people - they'd been screwed before by Brian's 'handlers'.
It's also possible that Carl looked at this potential album differently than SIP. SIP was Mike's baby; if the new album was to be Brian's baby (be my baby?), Carl knew the critics and fans would be paying closer attention, and if it was anything other than Brian's best, it would be savaged in the press. Carl didn't want to see Brian destroyed again by critical reaction to his work.

I dunno. While Brian hadn't yet released new stuff when they recorded those reunion songs, it was by the end of 1995 that Brian had released *two* albums, a documentary film, and he seemed to survive all of that with relatively solid reviews. No, "Orange Crate Art" didn't burn up the charts as if it was "Smile II", but Brian got more critical notices for his two '95 albums than anything the Beach Boys had done in the studio in eons. So even by the end of 1995 before they had finished "Stars and Stripes", Carl had to know Brian was "okay" in terms of critics.

I would definitely say using the "Pet Sounds" format for the 1995 sessions, in terms of writing and even partially recording songs before the BBs even entered the picture, was not necessarily going to engender unbridled enthusiasm. Add to that the weird political stuff of recent years with the autobiography, the awkwardness of not having worked together a great deal in the studio (and certainly they hadn't had Brian full writing and then helming a sessions for years), and both Don Was and Andy Paley were in there involved in various capacities; it was certainly a minefield of *potential* issues considering the dysfunctional BBs could be sidetracked by any *one* issue (or seemingly none at all) let alone numerous.
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« Reply #55 on: February 08, 2017, 06:37:41 AM »

To be fair...that song was part of the Elton John/Bernie Taupin tribute album "Two Rooms", which also featured artists such as The Who and Eric Clapton in addition to the Beach Boys.  That album sold over 1 million copies in the US alone and went platinum.  The video was commissioned by the label and I'm not sure how much, if any, input the band had on it. Problem Child, well, that's another story....

I think it's worth noting that that one track, and that one video, is not some sort of huge deal or huge turning point for the band. It's not even the worst one-off or tribute album track they had done. Al and Carl's lead vocals are good on that one.

Having said that, they still presumably chose that whole package deal with doing the song and then doing the video. Nobody was forcing them (perhaps an individual Beach Boy or two may have been outvoted on doing it, but probably not considering they had done numerous one-off soundtrack songs and whatnot in the previous decade).

I would guess the "Problem Child" situation was relatively similar, the difference being instead of the label running the tribute album, the band was dealing with the movie studio putting out "Problem Child."

But yeah, the basic idea is that Bruce's comments on the '95 stuff are rather rich considering the band hadn't been trying to reach any artistic peaks in the previous 10-15 years.
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« Reply #56 on: February 08, 2017, 03:07:27 PM »

I think the mistake in the reunion sessions was to rely strictly on Brian and his 'handlers' for the material. Brian hadn't been a fully participating Beach Boy for many years. The way forward should have been to take the best of Brian's material with Paley, and get some new songs from the other BB's (if they had any). I'm sure Carl and Al had a few tunes stored away. I can't fault the guys for being a bit suspicious of Brian's new group of people - they'd been screwed before by Brian's 'handlers'.
It's also possible that Carl looked at this potential album differently than SIP. SIP was Mike's baby; if the new album was to be Brian's baby (be my baby?), Carl knew the critics and fans would be paying closer attention, and if it was anything other than Brian's best, it would be savaged in the press. Carl didn't want to see Brian destroyed again by critical reaction to his work.

The people surrounding Brian in 1995 were people who had proven track records in the music business. Not a sociopathic wannabe rock star with a mid-life crisis.

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« Reply #57 on: February 08, 2017, 08:55:19 PM »

Andrew Doe has always maintained that the Andy Paley tracks are what is circulating, and the unbooted Don Was tracks are what the group was working with.
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« Reply #58 on: February 08, 2017, 08:56:57 PM »

Consider the source, though. If he told me 2+2 = 4, I'd have to ask him who was showing him the flash cards and got no credit for it.
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« Reply #59 on: February 09, 2017, 07:31:10 AM »

Andrew Doe has always maintained that the Andy Paley tracks are what is circulating, and the unbooted Don Was tracks are what the group was working with.

It does look like in the past some folks thought/assumed both "Soul Searchin'" and "You're Still a Mystery" were paste jobs with the Was-produced vocals grafted into old Paley backing tracks. Which is confusing, because I always had it I my mind since discussing this in the late 90s online that only "Soul Searchin'" was a paste job.

I remember it was in the late 90s, as I recall, that Mark Linett posted on the old usenet newsgroups the story of how, while Carl was still alive, they had grafted the BB vocals onto the old Paley track as an experiment. He specifically mentioned only "Soul Searchin'." The narrative always seemed to me to be that Don Was came into the project, and re-cut a couple of backing tracks for the BBs to add vocals to, and Carl apparently had issues with them, and specifically "Soul Searchin'."

Additionally, my ears always told me that YSAM sounded more like a Was track. Some of the instrumentation and arrangement sounded atypical of most of the other Paley stuff (though apparently both Was and Paley were involved in the "Was backing tracks").

C-man did confirm in a post (and it took me forever to find it) back in 2013 that "You're Still a Mystery" retains the backing track produced by Don Was, Brian, and Andy at Oceanway:

http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,16796.msg417108.html#msg417108

So we have a Don Was backing track to "Soul Searchin'" that we've never heard, and possibly an Andy Paley backing track/demo/alternate version of "You're Still a Mystery" that we've never heard.
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« Reply #60 on: February 09, 2017, 07:35:09 PM »

I think the mistake in the reunion sessions was to rely strictly on Brian and his 'handlers' for the material. Brian hadn't been a fully participating Beach Boy for many years. The way forward should have been to take the best of Brian's material with Paley, and get some new songs from the other BB's (if they had any). I'm sure Carl and Al had a few tunes stored away. I can't fault the guys for being a bit suspicious of Brian's new group of people - they'd been screwed before by Brian's 'handlers'.
It's also possible that Carl looked at this potential album differently than SIP. SIP was Mike's baby; if the new album was to be Brian's baby (be my baby?), Carl knew the critics and fans would be paying closer attention, and if it was anything other than Brian's best, it would be savaged in the press. Carl didn't want to see Brian destroyed again by critical reaction to his work.

I dunno. While Brian hadn't yet released new stuff when they recorded those reunion songs, it was by the end of 1995 that Brian had released *two* albums, a documentary film, and he seemed to survive all of that with relatively solid reviews. No, "Orange Crate Art" didn't burn up the charts as if it was "Smile II", but Brian got more critical notices for his two '95 albums than anything the Beach Boys had done in the studio in eons. So even by the end of 1995 before they had finished "Stars and Stripes", Carl had to know Brian was "okay" in terms of critics.

I would definitely say using the "Pet Sounds" format for the 1995 sessions, in terms of writing and even partially recording songs before the BBs even entered the picture, was not necessarily going to engender unbridled enthusiasm. Add to that the weird political stuff of recent years with the autobiography, the awkwardness of not having worked together a great deal in the studio (and certainly they hadn't had Brian full writing and then helming a sessions for years), and both Don Was and Andy Paley were in there involved in various capacities; it was certainly a minefield of *potential* issues considering the dysfunctional BBs could be sidetracked by any *one* issue (or seemingly none at all) let alone numerous.
Yeah, didn't take much to derail these guys. And I will never get why Carl could have issues with the Wilson/Paley/Was material, yet be in favor of the Stars and Stripes project. That album ranks even lower on the scale for me than SIP.
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« Reply #61 on: February 09, 2017, 07:43:53 PM »

There are several decisions made by Carl regarding the music and Brian's involvement in the band that are questionable to say the least. And it is also ironic that the band was leery about Brian getting involved in making the records beyond what Bruce said was a courtesy, yet within that same year there was Joe Thomas who at that point had no connections to the band prior to setting up the Stars & Stripes album asking that Brian be involved in the project. As soon as Brian made Willie Nelson's involvement a condition for that to happen, the project - according to Joe - took off and other country acts began signing on, following Willie's lead.

So Brian had and was building more of a cache and demand for his participation in music projects after his "return" in '94, except within the band he founded with his family. Ironic.
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« Reply #62 on: February 10, 2017, 07:08:52 AM »

There are several decisions made by Carl regarding the music and Brian's involvement in the band that are questionable to say the least. And it is also ironic that the band was leery about Brian getting involved in making the records beyond what Bruce said was a courtesy, yet within that same year there was Joe Thomas who at that point had no connections to the band prior to setting up the Stars & Stripes album asking that Brian be involved in the project. As soon as Brian made Willie Nelson's involvement a condition for that to happen, the project - according to Joe - took off and other country acts began signing on, following Willie's lead.

So Brian had and was building more of a cache and demand for his participation in music projects after his "return" in '94, except within the band he founded with his family. Ironic.

It's tough, because all of Carl's sentiments are now fed to us as indirect hearsay. I think there's enough evidence to strongly point to Carl having misgivings about various things to do with Brian in that era; I don't think those relating how Carl felt are trying to be misleading.

But I'd say some of the "alleged" issues Carl had were more legit than others. Balking at the Paley stuff in light of what Carl had sang on before and after with the Beach Boys? That seems much more difficult to agree with. But Carl's misgivings about Brian touring PS with the band in the 1996-97 timeframe? That's not completely nuts. Brian hadn't been touring regularly solo yet, and hadn't done a full-length show/tour with the Beach Boys since 1982, and hadn't really been a integral beginning-to-end participant in shows since either 1965 or, arguably, the 1977 shows where he was playing bass and was super energetic. So I could understand Carl's misgivings in that area (and indeed, Brian's early 1998 TV/video appearances were pretty shaky, especially that "Farm Aid" gig). But even then, as I've said in the past, the band could have easily put together a PS tour back then. It's not like Brian would have had to carry the show. Carl and Al would have taken plenty of vocal slack. Brian could have participated in the same way he ended up participating on C50, where he didn't have to carry the whole show.

I do think Carl knew the circa 1996/97 touring backing band could not adequately do all of the PS tracks, but again, they could have just hired more musicians for such a tour. But I think that gets back to Carl just not yet seeing it as viable to do Beach Boys shows with a huge, expensive backing band and filling the show with a bunch of deep cuts. I think Carl would have needed to see what Brian started engendering in 1999/2000 in terms of his live presentation. 
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« Reply #63 on: February 11, 2017, 04:07:14 PM »

This is a little off topic, but I always thought that Bruce's "courtesy to Brian" remark was a pretty shitty thing to say. He might as well have said "We're giving Brian the honor of producing a record for us, The Beach Boys".  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #64 on: February 11, 2017, 04:58:19 PM »

There are several decisions made by Carl regarding the music and Brian's involvement in the band that are questionable to say the least. And it is also ironic that the band was leery about Brian getting involved in making the records beyond what Bruce said was a courtesy, yet within that same year there was Joe Thomas who at that point had no connections to the band prior to setting up the Stars & Stripes album asking that Brian be involved in the project. As soon as Brian made Willie Nelson's involvement a condition for that to happen, the project - according to Joe - took off and other country acts began signing on, following Willie's lead.

So Brian had and was building more of a cache and demand for his participation in music projects after his "return" in '94, except within the band he founded with his family. Ironic.

It's tough, because all of Carl's sentiments are now fed to us as indirect hearsay. I think there's enough evidence to strongly point to Carl having misgivings about various things to do with Brian in that era; I don't think those relating how Carl felt are trying to be misleading.

But I'd say some of the "alleged" issues Carl had were more legit than others. Balking at the Paley stuff in light of what Carl had sang on before and after with the Beach Boys? That seems much more difficult to agree with. But Carl's misgivings about Brian touring PS with the band in the 1996-97 timeframe? That's not completely nuts. Brian hadn't been touring regularly solo yet, and hadn't done a full-length show/tour with the Beach Boys since 1982, and hadn't really been a integral beginning-to-end participant in shows since either 1965 or, arguably, the 1977 shows where he was playing bass and was super energetic. So I could understand Carl's misgivings in that area (and indeed, Brian's early 1998 TV/video appearances were pretty shaky, especially that "Farm Aid" gig). But even then, as I've said in the past, the band could have easily put together a PS tour back then. It's not like Brian would have had to carry the show. Carl and Al would have taken plenty of vocal slack. Brian could have participated in the same way he ended up participating on C50, where he didn't have to carry the whole show.

I do think Carl knew the circa 1996/97 touring backing band could not adequately do all of the PS tracks, but again, they could have just hired more musicians for such a tour. But I think that gets back to Carl just not yet seeing it as viable to do Beach Boys shows with a huge, expensive backing band and filling the show with a bunch of deep cuts. I think Carl would have needed to see what Brian started engendering in 1999/2000 in terms of his live presentation. 

Actually, I would not be surprised if Carl "balked" at it, because he of all people knew how hard it would be to "sell" a somewhat different sound for the band to the public, who'd been "frogged-in-the-pot" for twenty years by that point with the classic BB sound as the "way into" their music. He probably recognized that as much as he'd tried to take things elsewhere, those efforts did not pan out in reinventing the band's identity and that, like it or not, there were reasons why the band had to kow-tow to something like what Mike was advocating.

Neither "Soul Searching" nor "You're Still A Mystery" have sufficient connection to that sound--compare to "That's Why God Made the Radio." They are pretty good tracks, but they weren't tightly enough aligned with the classic BB sound to bring off a level of commercial success that would have opened the door to more adventurous songwriting. And I think Carl could sense that. I don't see it as a question of "well, this is so much better than SIP so we should just do it" in his mind. I think he knew if they were going to do a "Brian Is Back 2" that Brian would really need to be back. And it wasn't quite there.

As Wirestone said, Carl could not have known that a year later he would be mortally ill and that these aborted sessions would have turned out to be the "last chance" of the group to pull it all together. He was probably hoping that Brian would keep plugging away and find a new take on his old groove, and was willing to cross his fingers in terms of that coming to pass. It took awhile, but Brian did do that.

This is a little off topic, but I always thought that Bruce's "courtesy to Brian" remark was a pretty shitty thing to say. He might as well have said "We're giving Brian the honor of producing a record for us, The Beach Boys".  Roll Eyes

Bruce had been set up to evolve into somewhat with "extra entitlement" because he'd been specifically called back in to pull off the production that Brian was not pulling off in the late 70s. It says something about where Carl was at in the late 70s that he was not the choice to do this, as had been the case when Brian retreated in the late 60s.

So Bruce probably couldn't help but see himself as the "sane" choice in a "sea of madness" that had run the BBs aground. Remember this is a guy who in the late 70s made a strange joke about being the "Albert Speer of the Beach Boys" and technically innocent of much of the "craziness" in the band (it's that hidden "Nazi reference" in there that points to the kinds of things many of us have sensed simmering underneath Bruce's professionally sunny demeanor). By the mid-90s this must have been well "baked in" as a subliminal mindset, which did not remain hidden from view at that time, in part because--as noted in an earlier post--Brian was getting sensational press for the Was documentary and for Orange Crate Art. From the band's point of view, Brian had done little or nothing for their benefit since the late 70s. Note I am not agreeing with such a POV, but I can definitely see it coming into play at the time.
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« Reply #65 on: February 11, 2017, 08:52:31 PM »

Brilliant singer and underrated producer.
Prolly the sweatest male voice I ever heard.
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« Reply #66 on: February 11, 2017, 11:13:35 PM »

There are several decisions made by Carl regarding the music and Brian's involvement in the band that are questionable to say the least. And it is also ironic that the band was leery about Brian getting involved in making the records beyond what Bruce said was a courtesy, yet within that same year there was Joe Thomas who at that point had no connections to the band prior to setting up the Stars & Stripes album asking that Brian be involved in the project. As soon as Brian made Willie Nelson's involvement a condition for that to happen, the project - according to Joe - took off and other country acts began signing on, following Willie's lead.

So Brian had and was building more of a cache and demand for his participation in music projects after his "return" in '94, except within the band he founded with his family. Ironic.

It's tough, because all of Carl's sentiments are now fed to us as indirect hearsay. I think there's enough evidence to strongly point to Carl having misgivings about various things to do with Brian in that era; I don't think those relating how Carl felt are trying to be misleading.

But I'd say some of the "alleged" issues Carl had were more legit than others. Balking at the Paley stuff in light of what Carl had sang on before and after with the Beach Boys? That seems much more difficult to agree with. But Carl's misgivings about Brian touring PS with the band in the 1996-97 timeframe? That's not completely nuts. Brian hadn't been touring regularly solo yet, and hadn't done a full-length show/tour with the Beach Boys since 1982, and hadn't really been a integral beginning-to-end participant in shows since either 1965 or, arguably, the 1977 shows where he was playing bass and was super energetic. So I could understand Carl's misgivings in that area (and indeed, Brian's early 1998 TV/video appearances were pretty shaky, especially that "Farm Aid" gig). But even then, as I've said in the past, the band could have easily put together a PS tour back then. It's not like Brian would have had to carry the show. Carl and Al would have taken plenty of vocal slack. Brian could have participated in the same way he ended up participating on C50, where he didn't have to carry the whole show.

I do think Carl knew the circa 1996/97 touring backing band could not adequately do all of the PS tracks, but again, they could have just hired more musicians for such a tour. But I think that gets back to Carl just not yet seeing it as viable to do Beach Boys shows with a huge, expensive backing band and filling the show with a bunch of deep cuts. I think Carl would have needed to see what Brian started engendering in 1999/2000 in terms of his live presentation. 

Actually, I would not be surprised if Carl "balked" at it, because he of all people knew how hard it would be to "sell" a somewhat different sound for the band to the public, who'd been "frogged-in-the-pot" for twenty years by that point with the classic BB sound as the "way into" their music. He probably recognized that as much as he'd tried to take things elsewhere, those efforts did not pan out in reinventing the band's identity and that, like it or not, there were reasons why the band had to kow-tow to something like what Mike was advocating.

Neither "Soul Searching" nor "You're Still A Mystery" have sufficient connection to that sound--compare to "That's Why God Made the Radio." They are pretty good tracks, but they weren't tightly enough aligned with the classic BB sound to bring off a level of commercial success that would have opened the door to more adventurous songwriting. And I think Carl could sense that. I don't see it as a question of "well, this is so much better than SIP so we should just do it" in his mind. I think he knew if they were going to do a "Brian Is Back 2" that Brian would really need to be back. And it wasn't quite there.

As Wirestone said, Carl could not have known that a year later he would be mortally ill and that these aborted sessions would have turned out to be the "last chance" of the group to pull it all together. He was probably hoping that Brian would keep plugging away and find a new take on his old groove, and was willing to cross his fingers in terms of that coming to pass. It took awhile, but Brian did do that.

This is a little off topic, but I always thought that Bruce's "courtesy to Brian" remark was a pretty shitty thing to say. He might as well have said "We're giving Brian the honor of producing a record for us, The Beach Boys".  Roll Eyes

Bruce had been set up to evolve into somewhat with "extra entitlement" because he'd been specifically called back in to pull off the production that Brian was not pulling off in the late 70s. It says something about where Carl was at in the late 70s that he was not the choice to do this, as had been the case when Brian retreated in the late 60s.

So Bruce probably couldn't help but see himself as the "sane" choice in a "sea of madness" that had run the BBs aground. Remember this is a guy who in the late 70s made a strange joke about being the "Albert Speer of the Beach Boys" and technically innocent of much of the "craziness" in the band (it's that hidden "Nazi reference" in there that points to the kinds of things many of us have sensed simmering underneath Bruce's professionally sunny demeanor). By the mid-90s this must have been well "baked in" as a subliminal mindset, which did not remain hidden from view at that time, in part because--as noted in an earlier post--Brian was getting sensational press for the Was documentary and for Orange Crate Art. From the band's point of view, Brian had done little or nothing for their benefit since the late 70s. Note I am not agreeing with such a POV, but I can definitely see it coming into play at the time.
It's true that Brian was getting very positive press from OCA and IJWMFTT, but neither of those cd's sold at all. Brian was a cult artist. The Beach Boys wanted to be hitmakers again. SIP was a failed attempt at another Kokomo, 4 years too late. Mike probably thought S&S would help them build a base with country audiences. I think, by this point, Carl was looking at the commercial potential of these projects, too. If it was gonna come out under the Beach Boys name, it had better be commercial. If he wanted to do something more artistically expressive, he could do that outside of the band - as he did with Like A Brother. Too bad, then, that Carl and Brian did do more work together, but I think their relationship was very strained after the Landy stuff. I'm not convinced Brian wanted to get away from Landy - he was brainwashed into thinking he needed him, so that made Carl the villain in that story. It seems to have been very awkward between them. And as I watch the S&S video, it occurs to me that it must have been a little strange to Carl to be bringing Brian back to lead things. Carl had been the musical leader of the band for a long time. No one challenged him. Now Brian is back as the producer.
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