Pet Sounds Overrated?

[Robbie Mac]

While I personally don't think PS is overrated, I can understand why some people don't like the album and therefor can't understand why the album tops many critics best lists.  The reasons are all detailed in the links from the first post - too many downbeat slow sentimental (one person said syrupy) depressing songs (Mike Love's critical appraisal as well?), only a few good songs (essentially because of the first point), overblown production that essentially copied Spector and so wasn't innovative, high voices/falsetto on some songs that are emasculating or embarrassing to even listen to (a criticism that Brian could relate to, feeling the same way about some of his vocal performances like on Let Him Run Wild). 

That's what I get out of the linked articles, and that these people who don't like the album believe the reasons the album is revered is because of the mythic back story that critics love - crazy mentally unstable rock star fights with record company to release his masterpiece before breaking down completely during the Smile sessions.

The albums songs ARE sentimental at times but also sensitive, reflecting the sensitive, emotional and emotionally troubled artist himself, and those sentiments are given a remarkable musical backdrop and melodies and harmonies that are nothing short of genius for those who can appreciate them.  And what the macho let's rock and roll upbeat only critics of PS perhaps don't realize is that the emotions and feelings explored in Pet Sounds are universal and very common in adolescence, even though at the time, 1966, few men or high school boys would ever admit to it.  It's a different age now, but it was very brave of Brian, with Tony's help, to bare his feelings and expose himself like that, when to do that in high school in 1966 would likely invite ridicule and taunts to "man up."

Point taken. But was "man up" a popular phrase in 1966?

[The LEGENDARY OSD]

While I personally don't think PS is overrated, I can understand why some people don't like the album and therefor can't understand why the album tops many critics best lists.  The reasons are all detailed in the links from the first post - too many downbeat slow sentimental (one person said syrupy) depressing songs (Mike Love's critical appraisal as well?), only a few good songs (essentially because of the first point), overblown production that essentially copied Spector and so wasn't innovative, high voices/falsetto on some songs that are emasculating or embarrassing to even listen to (a criticism that Brian could relate to, feeling the same way about some of his vocal performances like on Let Him Run Wild). 

That's what I get out of the linked articles, and that these people who don't like the album believe the reasons the album is revered is because of the mythic back story that critics love - crazy mentally unstable rock star fights with record company to release his masterpiece before breaking down completely during the Smile sessions.

The albums songs ARE sentimental at times but also sensitive, reflecting the sensitive, emotional and emotionally troubled artist himself, and those sentiments are given a remarkable musical backdrop and melodies and harmonies that are nothing short of genius for those who can appreciate them.  And what the macho let's rock and roll upbeat only critics of PS perhaps don't realize is that the emotions and feelings explored in Pet Sounds are universal and very common in adolescence, even though at the time, 1966, few men or high school boys would ever admit to it.  It's a different age now, but it was very brave of Brian, with Tony's help, to bare his feelings and expose himself like that, when to do that in high school in 1966 would likely invite ridicule and taunts to "man up."

Point taken. But was "man up" a popular phrase in 1966?

Don't remember the term back then and never heard it while in the service from 67-70 as most of their lingo was gutter oriented.

[SMiLE Brian]

Youngarmydude!

[DonnyL]

I mean, Love You and 15 Big Ones are just as good

[Hickory Violet Part IV]

I mean, Love You and 15 Big Ones are just as good

I agree with Love You, as it's  a stunning, original work.

Interested in your hearing your thoughts behind putting 15 Big Ones up there with Pet Sounds,  Donny.

[B.E.]

I mean, Love You and 15 Big Ones are just as good

I agree with Love You, as it's  a stunning, original work.

Interested in your hearing your thoughts behind putting 15 Big Ones up there with Pet Sounds,  Donny.

If I may, DonnyL was quoting Brian Wilson. And I gotta say... I love how much Brian loves his own work.

As far as Pet Sounds being overrated? I don't think so. I'm willing to consider it, but I just can't get there. It deserves the praise it receives and its status as one of the greatest records ever made.

While I personally don't think PS is overrated, I can understand why some people don't like the album and therefor can't understand why the album tops many critics best lists.  The reasons are all detailed in the links from the first post - too many downbeat slow sentimental (one person said syrupy) depressing songs (Mike Love's critical appraisal as well?), only a few good songs (essentially because of the first point), overblown production that essentially copied Spector and so wasn't innovative, high voices/falsetto on some songs that are emasculating or embarrassing to even listen to (a criticism that Brian could relate to, feeling the same way about some of his vocal performances like on Let Him Run Wild). 

That's what I get out of the linked articles, and that these people who don't like the album believe the reasons the album is revered is because of the mythic back story that critics love - crazy mentally unstable rock star fights with record company to release his masterpiece before breaking down completely during the Smile sessions.

The albums songs ARE sentimental at times but also sensitive, reflecting the sensitive, emotional and emotionally troubled artist himself, and those sentiments are given a remarkable musical backdrop and melodies and harmonies that are nothing short of genius for those who can appreciate them.  And what the macho let's rock and roll upbeat only critics of PS perhaps don't realize is that the emotions and feelings explored in Pet Sounds are universal and very common in adolescence, even though at the time, 1966, few men or high school boys would ever admit to it.  It's a different age now, but it was very brave of Brian, with Tony's help, to bare his feelings and expose himself like that, when to do that in high school in 1966 would likely invite ridicule and taunts to "man up."

Great post. Pet Sounds isn't going to be everyone's favorite album, but that doesn't mean it's overrated. I don't care for most 'classic' albums, but that doesn't take away from their greatness.

[Hickory Violet Part IV]

If I may, DonnyL was quoting Brian Wilson. And I gotta say... I love how much Brian loves his own work.

Ah, I must have missd that one. Very pleased he loves Love You. So he should.

[DonnyL]

If I may, DonnyL was quoting Brian Wilson. And I gotta say... I love how much Brian loves his own work.

Ah, I must have missd that one. Very pleased he loves Love You. So he should.

Ha yes, I recently saw that video someone posted with that BW quote ...

I have to agree in some ways with his assessment. To me, Love You is one of the most immediate Beach Boys records. When I first heard both albums at age 13, Pet Sounds took awhile to sink in ... but Love You (and MIU actually) I loved right away.

As for 15 Big Ones, I must admit I play it a lot more than albums that I should like better (Surf's Up, So Tough, etc) ...

[Adult Child]

I mean, Love You and 15 Big Ones are just as good

I agree with Love You, as it's  a stunning, original work.

Interested in your hearing your thoughts behind putting 15 Big Ones up there with Pet Sounds,  Donny.

If I may, DonnyL was quoting Brian Wilson. And I gotta say... I love how much Brian loves his own work.

Where did Brian say that? I'm not denying it, I'm just fascinated. Love You I get. But 15 Big Ones? Was this said in hindsight?
For some reason I'm always surprised at how much I'm surprised by Brian's opinions on things, despite the fact they should make sense coming from him (that wasn't meant as a put down just in case anybody read it as such).

[CenturyDeprived]

If I may, DonnyL was quoting Brian Wilson. And I gotta say... I love how much Brian loves his own work.

Ah, I must have missd that one. Very pleased he loves Love You. So he should.

Ha yes, I recently saw that video someone posted with that BW quote ...

I have to agree in some ways with his assessment. To me, Love You is one of the most immediate Beach Boys records. When I first heard both albums at age 13, Pet Sounds took awhile to sink in ... but Love You (and MIU actually) I loved right away.

As for 15 Big Ones, I must admit I play it a lot more than albums that I should like better (Surf's Up, So Tough, etc) ...

15BO is definitely underrated. Flawed as it is, there's some gold in them backing tracks..

[bossaroo]

as to the original question... overall, no of course not. any criticism of PS just boils down to personal taste. the songs are mostly sentimental (that's the point) but not mostly slow. in terms of pop composition, arrangement, production, vocal harmonies, and influence Pet Sounds can't be topped.

and you might be surprised how many people have NO IDEA that an album called Pet Sounds even exists. I have a Pet Sounds t-shirt and am still shocked how many people ask me what it means!

lots of people know WIBN, SJB, GOK but the rest of the album, not so much.


I do feel it gets way more attention than other BB albums, for some obvious reasons... but there are so many great ones in the catalog.
Today!, Wild Honey, Friends, Sunflower, Love You being my personal favorites. and SMiLE

 

[B.E.]

Where did Brian say that?

Start at 1:47...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8IVPSR2GLk4

[Robbie Mac]

If I may, DonnyL was quoting Brian Wilson. And I gotta say... I love how much Brian loves his own work.

Ah, I must have missd that one. Very pleased he loves Love You. So he should.

Ha yes, I recently saw that video someone posted with that BW quote ...

I have to agree in some ways with his assessment. To me, Love You is one of the most immediate Beach Boys records. When I first heard both albums at age 13, Pet Sounds took awhile to sink in ... but Love You (and MIU actually) I loved right away.

As for 15 Big Ones, I must admit I play it a lot more than albums that I should like better (Surf's Up, So Tough, etc) ...

15BO is definitely underrated. Flawed as it is, there's some gold in them backing tracks..

Had To Phone Ya is stunning (You Know You stopped short of calling me an idiot when I suggested that once) and Just once In My Life is a great 70's take on Spector's sound.

[KDS]

It's overrated in relation to the rest of the BB's catalog. In other words, if you read the hip music publications, you'd think all you need for a BB's collection is Pet Sounds and a collection of their early single hits...and maybe Smile Sessions. To me, that does such an injustice to Sunflower, Wild Honey, Beach Boys Today, Summer Days and Summer Nights, Holland, All Summer Long......and yes, i'll say it....Smiley Smile. I am so thankful that I did not stop with Pet Sounds and Endless Summer way back in 1981, so glad I investigated the rest of the catalog, especially those much maligned post-PS albums (gee, reading David Leaf's book, I  was lead to believe the only worthwhile moments on those albums were the Brian Wilson songs...but I kept my ears and my mind open, and found out "wow, the other guys wrote some good stuff too! And Carl Wilson can make even the most average song sound won-won-wonderful!").

This is true.  I've said before that the perception of The Beach Boys seems to be a singles band with one great album (Pet Sounds).

[Peter Reum]

There are several fine albums besides Pet Sounds. Iwould say Surfin' USA, Surfer Girl, All Summer Long, Today, Summer Days, Party, Smiley Smile, Wild Honey,Friends, 20/20, Sunflower, Surfs Up,Holland, and Love You. All of them are very good to excellent.

[Rick5150]

Anybody who thinks Pet Sounds is overrated should do the following:

1. Get a good sound system or a good set of headphones;
2. Listen to the entire album from start to finish;
3. Listen to the instrumental-only versions of the songs from start to finish. Notice that things that are not instruments are used to become an integral part of the music;
4. Revel in each note of every instrument and non-instrument;
5. Listen to the vocals-only version of the album from start to finish;
6. Openly weep at the beauty of the intertwining harmonies and the vocal gymnastics. You will never hear anything like this again, other than other Beach Boys albums.
7. Now re-listen to the album and see how the instruments and vocals combine in a perfectly blended wall of emotion, intense feeling and longing.
8. Repeat steps 3-7 until you 'get it'.

[The LEGENDARY OSD]

Anybody who thinks Pet Sounds is overrated should do the following:

1. Get a good sound system or a good set of headphones;
2. Listen to the entire album from start to finish;
3. Listen to the instrumental-only versions of the songs from start to finish. Notice that things that are not instruments are used to become an integral part of the music;
4. Revel in each note of every instrument and non-instrument;
5. Listen to the vocals-only version of the album from start to finish;
6. Openly weep at the beauty of the intertwining harmonies and the vocal gymnastics. You will never hear anything like this again, other than other Beach Boys albums.
7. Now re-listen to the album and see how the instruments and vocals combine in a perfectly blended wall of emotion, intense feeling and longing.
8. Repeat steps 3-7 until you 'get it'.

Excellent list and further suggest the stereo version and a glass of your favorite vintage.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

Pet Sounds is my 2nd favourite album of all time and, in general, I find that terms like "overrated" and "underrated" are lousy ways of evaluating something (evaluate it on its own terms not in relation to what you assume others think about it). But why should I care if someone else doesn't like it?

[Ang Jones]

Pet Sounds is my 2nd favourite album of all time and, in general, I find that terms like "overrated" and "underrated" are lousy ways of evaluating something (evaluate it on its own terms not in relation to what you assume others think about it). But why should I care if someone else doesn't like it?

When we ask if something is 'over-rated' we are really judging the opinions of others as much as the thing itself. We are suggesting that the people who have such an opinion are wrong. So I agree that there are better ways of evaluating Pet Sounds and ones that are less subjective. Has it stood the test of time? The answer to that appears to be 'yes'. Even now, over 50 years since the time of its release, it can sell out concerts all over the world and it is still on sale as an album as well.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

Pet Sounds is my 2nd favourite album of all time and, in general, I find that terms like "overrated" and "underrated" are lousy ways of evaluating something (evaluate it on its own terms not in relation to what you assume others think about it). But why should I care if someone else doesn't like it?

When we ask if something is 'over-rated' we are really judging the opinions of others as much as the thing itself. We are suggesting that the people who have such an opinion are wrong. So I agree that there are better ways of evaluating Pet Sounds and ones that are less subjective. Has it stood the test of time? The answer to that appears to be 'yes'. Even now, over 50 years since the time of its release, it can sell out concerts all over the world and it is still on sale as an album as well.

Yes, but even that is somewhat subjective because others feel that it is more important for a work of art to be of its time and speak to what is happening now than it is to aim for timelessness. Personally, I am more than a little surprised about what music from my youth (the 90s) has stood the test of time (two decades at least) and I can't say that I think much of it is any good.

[the captain]

I mostly agree with CSM here. Peruse old threads about overrated or underrated or listing in general and you can find me blathering on and on about things like this: (over- and under-)rated by whom, and on what criteria? Most of the time, it's a vague presumed consensus and on no criteria. It's just a way to fill pages of a magazine, or to generate clicks, the musical equivalent of 10 ways to get that bikini body by summer, or top 3 tricks to have better sex. It's just irrelevant crap.

[guitarfool2002]

Pet Sounds is my 2nd favourite album of all time and, in general, I find that terms like "overrated" and "underrated" are lousy ways of evaluating something (evaluate it on its own terms not in relation to what you assume others think about it). But why should I care if someone else doesn't like it?

When we ask if something is 'over-rated' we are really judging the opinions of others as much as the thing itself. We are suggesting that the people who have such an opinion are wrong. So I agree that there are better ways of evaluating Pet Sounds and ones that are less subjective. Has it stood the test of time? The answer to that appears to be 'yes'. Even now, over 50 years since the time of its release, it can sell out concerts all over the world and it is still on sale as an album as well.

Yes, but even that is somewhat subjective because others feel that it is more important for a work of art to be of its time and speak to what is happening now than it is to aim for timelessness. Personally, I am more than a little surprised about what music from my youth (the 90s) has stood the test of time (two decades at least) and I can't say that I think much of it is any good.

Above all I agree with Mr. Desper's assessment of all this, verbatim.

Usually the talking heads and pundits try to state a case that something is "overrated" with the goal of knocking something down in order to boost another something up. And it usually if not always exposes more about the person making that attempt than it does add in some way to the dialogue.

But in terms of art being of its time, if that is applied to other prominent examples of albums from the period 1966-67-68, that notion would shatter attempts to diminish the legacy and impact of the Sgt. Pepper album. In the past decade or so there have been attempts to declare Pepper "overrated" if not diminish it entirely, yet if the standard involves a work of art being "of its time", Pepper really was that big of a release in its time and it really was that much of a groundbreaker in terms of kicking down the doors and brick walls in terms of what could be possible on a rock album and how that related to the other facets of pop groups making albums and how those albums were delivered to the public.

So essentially, the "of its time" point would make attempts to lift great albums like "Forever Changes" or "Piper At The Gates..." over and above an album like Pepper basically moot since no matter how much "better" opinions might put either one or others comparative to Pepper artistically or musically, nothing in 1967 really resonated with both the public and the musician/artist/pop culture community as much as Pepper.

And in terms of legacy coming from years of reassessment, rediscovery, and discovery in general, Pet Sounds is in very exclusive company in terms of the album continuing to grow in stature as each successive generation of listeners finds it on their own.

Perhaps it truly was ahead of its time, yet it was always there waiting for people to discover when they were ready and open enough to do so.

[Ang Jones]

Pet Sounds is my 2nd favourite album of all time and, in general, I find that terms like "overrated" and "underrated" are lousy ways of evaluating something (evaluate it on its own terms not in relation to what you assume others think about it). But why should I care if someone else doesn't like it?

When we ask if something is 'over-rated' we are really judging the opinions of others as much as the thing itself. We are suggesting that the people who have such an opinion are wrong. So I agree that there are better ways of evaluating Pet Sounds and ones that are less subjective. Has it stood the test of time? The answer to that appears to be 'yes'. Even now, over 50 years since the time of its release, it can sell out concerts all over the world and it is still on sale as an album as well.

Yes, but even that is somewhat subjective because others feel that it is more important for a work of art to be of its time and speak to what is happening now than it is to aim for timelessness. Personally, I am more than a little surprised about what music from my youth (the 90s) has stood the test of time (two decades at least) and I can't say that I think much of it is any good.

Above all I agree with Mr. Desper's assessment of all this, verbatim.

Usually the talking heads and pundits try to state a case that something is "overrated" with the goal of knocking something down in order to boost another something up. And it usually if not always exposes more about the person making that attempt than it does add in some way to the dialogue.

But in terms of art being of its time, if that is applied to other prominent examples of albums from the period 1966-67-68, that notion would shatter attempts to diminish the legacy and impact of the Sgt. Pepper album. In the past decade or so there have been attempts to declare Pepper "overrated" if not diminish it entirely, yet if the standard involves a work of art being "of its time", Pepper really was that big of a release in its time and it really was that much of a groundbreaker in terms of kicking down the doors and brick walls in terms of what could be possible on a rock album and how that related to the other facets of pop groups making albums and how those albums were delivered to the public.

So essentially, the "of its time" point would make attempts to lift great albums like "Forever Changes" or "Piper At The Gates..." over and above an album like Pepper basically moot since no matter how much "better" opinions might put either one or others comparative to Pepper artistically or musically, nothing in 1967 really resonated with both the public and the musician/artist/pop culture community as much as Pepper.

And in terms of legacy coming from years of reassessment, rediscovery, and discovery in general, Pet Sounds is in very exclusive company in terms of the album continuing to grow in stature as each successive generation of listeners finds it on their own.

Perhaps it truly was ahead of its time, yet it was always there waiting for people to discover when they were ready and open enough to do so.

I think Pet Sounds was both of its time and ahead of its time, which is why it made a difference THEN (at least in Europe at first) and is still appreciated today. I'm not sure if that makes it timeless - part of its charm is that it is so of its time. It's impossible to be completely objective - for me, Pet Sounds has some things in common with 'coming of age'. Brian's work became more daring and the very album starts with a look to the future but ends with a glance back at the past.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

Pet Sounds is my 2nd favourite album of all time and, in general, I find that terms like "overrated" and "underrated" are lousy ways of evaluating something (evaluate it on its own terms not in relation to what you assume others think about it). But why should I care if someone else doesn't like it?

When we ask if something is 'over-rated' we are really judging the opinions of others as much as the thing itself. We are suggesting that the people who have such an opinion are wrong. So I agree that there are better ways of evaluating Pet Sounds and ones that are less subjective. Has it stood the test of time? The answer to that appears to be 'yes'. Even now, over 50 years since the time of its release, it can sell out concerts all over the world and it is still on sale as an album as well.

Yes, but even that is somewhat subjective because others feel that it is more important for a work of art to be of its time and speak to what is happening now than it is to aim for timelessness. Personally, I am more than a little surprised about what music from my youth (the 90s) has stood the test of time (two decades at least) and I can't say that I think much of it is any good.

Above all I agree with Mr. Desper's assessment of all this, verbatim.

Usually the talking heads and pundits try to state a case that something is "overrated" with the goal of knocking something down in order to boost another something up. And it usually if not always exposes more about the person making that attempt than it does add in some way to the dialogue.

But in terms of art being of its time, if that is applied to other prominent examples of albums from the period 1966-67-68, that notion would shatter attempts to diminish the legacy and impact of the Sgt. Pepper album. In the past decade or so there have been attempts to declare Pepper "overrated" if not diminish it entirely, yet if the standard involves a work of art being "of its time", Pepper really was that big of a release in its time and it really was that much of a groundbreaker in terms of kicking down the doors and brick walls in terms of what could be possible on a rock album and how that related to the other facets of pop groups making albums and how those albums were delivered to the public.

So essentially, the "of its time" point would make attempts to lift great albums like "Forever Changes" or "Piper At The Gates..." over and above an album like Pepper basically moot since no matter how much "better" opinions might put either one or others comparative to Pepper artistically or musically, nothing in 1967 really resonated with both the public and the musician/artist/pop culture community as much as Pepper.

And in terms of legacy coming from years of reassessment, rediscovery, and discovery in general, Pet Sounds is in very exclusive company in terms of the album continuing to grow in stature as each successive generation of listeners finds it on their own.

Perhaps it truly was ahead of its time, yet it was always there waiting for people to discover when they were ready and open enough to do so.

I agree with this. I think to some degree we look at what the characteristics are of our favourite works of art (ie., it's timeless, it's a reflection of its time) and then privilege those characteristics. In other words, they decide first that they like the album and in looking for ways to explain what is good about it, they use these characteristics. I don't know if what I'm saying makes any sense though...

[Hickory Violet Part IV]

Well Craig, whether or not Sgt Peppers is overrated is an argument we've had before. What I got from your position then, and now, is that Sgt Peppers cannot be called overrated because of its cultural significance.

Genuine question here then...

What term can be applied to something that is elevated to a lofty position, which you just don't get?

Overrated seems to be the best term to use, but it is a wholly subjective one. I think Sgt Peppers is overrated precisely because the cultural significance is, to me at complete odds with the musical content. I just dont think its a good album. Personal opinion. So what other term can I use than overrated? By that argument I have no problem with anyone finding Pet Sounds overrated. I can understand and sympathise with that position.

I look forward to your reply Craig, as long as you are aware of the irony in trying to convince me Sgt Peppers isn't overrated by telling me how important it is