Pet Sounds Overrated?

[Lonely Summer]

The difference between Pepper and PS is that Pepper is considered to be one of the highlights in a great body of work, while PS is considered to be THE great work in a lifetime of music making. Look at the greatest albums list; they almost always include Abbey Road, Revolver and Rubber Soul. Some include A Hard Days Night and The Beatles. Rarely do any BB's albums besides PS get listed, other than Smile (mostly in the bootleg days when it was the greatest album that never was). I wonder how many of these critics even listened to the other BB's albums?

[Ang Jones]

The difference between Pepper and PS is that Pepper is considered to be one of the highlights in a great body of work, while PS is considered to be THE great work in a lifetime of music making. Look at the greatest albums list; they almost always include Abbey Road, Revolver and Rubber Soul. Some include A Hard Days Night and The Beatles. Rarely do any BB's albums besides PS get listed, other than Smile (mostly in the bootleg days when it was the greatest album that never was). I wonder how many of these critics even listened to the other BB's albums?

This brings us to the question 'what if?' What if SMiLE had been completed and finished back in the day? What effect would this have had on Brian's future creativity? What effect would this have had on the opinion of Sgt Pepper? Unfortunately, we can only speculate.

Brian created some beautiful music after Pet Sounds but IMO the non release of SMiLE and a few years later the release of American Graffiti and subsequent release of Endless Summer dragged Brian back like a rip tide into a past he had already outgrown.

[KDS]

There are several fine albums besides Pet Sounds. Iwould say Surfin' USA, Surfer Girl, All Summer Long, Today, Summer Days, Party, Smiley Smile, Wild Honey,Friends, 20/20, Sunflower, Surfs Up,Holland, and Love You. All of them are very good to excellent.

I agree with this (except Smiley Smile and Love You), but outside of BB fans, I don't think the albums get very highly rated. 

[Lee Marshall]

There are several fine albums besides Pet Sounds. Iwould say Surfin' USA, Surfer Girl, All Summer Long, Today, Summer Days, Party, Smiley Smile, Wild Honey,Friends, 20/20, Sunflower, Surfs Up,Holland, and Love You. All of them are very good to excellent.

I agree with this (except Smiley Smile and Love You), but outside of BB fans, I don't think the albums get very highly rated. 

YES!!!... ... ...What KDS said.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

Well Craig, whether or not Sgt Peppers is overrated is an argument we've had before. What I got from your position then, and now, is that Sgt Peppers cannot be called overrated because of its cultural significance.

Genuine question here then...

What term can be applied to something that is elevated to a lofty position, which you just don't get?

Overrated seems to be the best term to use, but it is a wholly subjective one. I think Sgt Peppers is overrated precisely because the cultural significance is, to me at complete odds with the musical content. I just dont think its a good album. Personal opinion. So what other term can I use than overrated? By that argument I have no problem with anyone finding Pet Sounds overrated. I can understand and sympathise with that position.

I look forward to your reply Craig, as long as you are aware of the irony in trying to convince me Sgt Peppers isn't overrated by telling me how important it is 

Obviously this wasn't directed toward me and guitarfool will have his own response to this but I wanted to share my thoughts as well.

To me, this would be like saying that the moon landing was overrated or World War 2 was overrated. Now today you will find lots of people who quite simply are not interested in stories about the moon landing or WW2, don't understand the significance of these events, and don't want to. And while they don't tend to use the term "overrated" to describe them, I suppose that they could. But to me, this would be missing the point. Sure, people have their own personal interests and it understandable that space travel and war might not fit into those interests. But to call them overrated is to dismiss the overall cultural significance of these events.

To me, I don't see what is wrong with just saying, "I don't particularly like that album because the music does nothing for me."

[Hickory Violet Part IV]

Well Craig, whether or not Sgt Peppers is overrated is an argument we've had before. What I got from your position then, and now, is that Sgt Peppers cannot be called overrated because of its cultural significance.

Genuine question here then...

What term can be applied to something that is elevated to a lofty position, which you just don't get?

Overrated seems to be the best term to use, but it is a wholly subjective one. I think Sgt Peppers is overrated precisely because the cultural significance is, to me at complete odds with the musical content. I just dont think its a good album. Personal opinion. So what other term can I use than overrated? By that argument I have no problem with anyone finding Pet Sounds overrated. I can understand and sympathise with that position.

I look forward to your reply Craig, as long as you are aware of the irony in trying to convince me Sgt Peppers isn't overrated by telling me how important it is  

Obviously this wasn't directed toward me and guitarfool will have his own response to this but I wanted to share my thoughts as well.

To me, this would be like saying that the moon landing was overrated or World War 2 was overrated. Now today you will find lots of people who quite simply are not interested in stories about the moon landing or WW2, don't understand the significance of these events, and don't want to. And while they don't tend to use the term "overrated" to describe them, I suppose that they could. But to me, this would be missing the point. Sure, people have their own personal interests and it understandable that space travel and war might not fit into those interests. But to call them overrated is to dismiss the overall cultural significance of these events.

To me, I don't see what is wrong with just saying, "I don't particularly like that album because the music does nothing for me."

I'm not downplaying or disregarding the cultural significance, far from it.  I'm saying that, to me, there is a disparity between its significance and the music itself. I find it musically overrated, and that's fine because it's a subjective view.

I don't understand the moon landing or world war II analogy. They weren't creative works. And  only a fool would say those weren't important events.

And surely cultural signicance shifts. Sorry to bring up Wagner again, but from the mid 19th century to the mid 20th century he was widely considered to be one of the worlds greatest composers. Then he fell out of favour after the war.  Mozart on the other hand didn't achieve the huge cultural significance he now has until the 1950s. A bit like Brian, he was considered quite lightweight and frothy before that, although there was always  a constant small group since his death who knew how great he was, and carried the flame. So was Mozart now underrated and is now overrated? Or Wagner vice versa? Meaningless. Its personal taste. I just judge stuff on the music, I find cultural significance a distraction.

Happy for you if you love Sgt Pepper though, and I hope it brings you great pleasure, because that's what music is for. Who cares what anyone else thinks.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

I'm not downplaying or disregarding the cultural significance, far from it.  I'm saying that, to me, there is a disparity between its significance and the music itself. I find it musically overrated, and that's fine because it's a subjective view.

It is fine and it is a subjective view (though, to be honest, saying something is overrated is to suggest there is an objective quality to the music) but I am entirely uninterested as a method of evaluation. For example, when I watch Orson Welles's Citizen Kane, it doesn't occur to me to say, "What I want to talk about when it comes to this film is how accurate the critical evaluation is of it." To me, that's not a particularly interesting argument. I'd like to talk about the photography, the dialogue, the performances, its relation to other films of its time, not how I think about it in relation to what others think about it.

Now, suppose when you say something is overrated you are not presuming an objective quality to the music. That, in fact, you are simply saying, "In my opinion this work of art does not deserve the respect it gets." Well, to me, what that really amounts to is, in my view, a more interesting position which is that you don't particularly like the work of art. And at that point the conversation can be "Why?" and hopefully the answer to that is not "Because other people like it so much" but, rather, because you can evaluate the work on it's own terms.

I don't understand the moon landing or world war II analogy. They weren't creative works.

Well, this is really an aside but quite honestly I do think that there was a lot of creative thinking that went into both of those examples. But, yes, they aren't works of art. Nevertheless, they are both things that had the capacity to be culturally significant and people can either be interested in them or not. In that respect, they are the same.

And  only a fool would say those weren't important events.

That's not really the point. As you say, you accept the cultural significance of an album like Sgt. Pepper, you're just not as interested in that album as other people are. And I'm saying that people can hold (and do hold) the same attitude towards monumental historical events but it wouldn't make sense to say that they are overrated.

So was Mozart now underrated and is now overrated? Or Wagner vice versa? Meaningless. Its personal taste. I just judge stuff on the music, I find cultural significance a distraction.

Well, this is kind of what I'm arguing except to say that it is important to think of the historical circumstances that surround a cultural artifact.

[Hickory Violet Part IV]

Now, suppose when you say something is overrated you are not presuming an objective quality to the music. That, in fact, you are simply saying, "In my opinion this work of art does not deserve the respect it gets." Well, to me, what that really amounts to is, in my view, a more interesting position which is that you don't particularly like the work of art. And at that point the conversation can be "Why?" and hopefully the answer to that is not "Because other people like it so much" but, rather, because you can evaluate the work on it's own terms.

Beautifully put, and that is exactly my position, but not with the answer you hope its not . I find the respect it gets difficult though, although I accept it.

And you're right that the term overrated does suggest a certain amount of objectivity. I was wrestling with that.

[Bicyclerider]

The problem is one person not liking a particular album does not diminish either its' significance/importance OR its' quality. It's one person's opinion.  So it is presumptuous for one person to think their opinion is so important that it somehow nullifies multiple critics and the public's opinion and somehow their belief that the album is overrated trumps all the critics and the general public's.

So I guess I'm saying that someone can say they don't like an album, and explain why, and see if others agree or disagree.  More interesting would be to analyze WHY the critics feel an album is great, and then refute those reasons, which is something the linked articles attempt to do but they set up paper elephants only to shoot them down.  Another approach would be to poll knowledgeable music fans such as the participants in this board and ask them what the top BB album is - if Pet Sounds were to fall in the middle somewhere rather than at the top, that could be significant.

[Don Malcolm]

Revisionism is easy. Actually revising the past in a way that illuminates the present or points to the future, however, is exceedingly difficult. It is easy to reflect the present via such an effort, but it will almost always be a distorted, inaccurate reflection--more like a funhouse mirror. That's what we're getting from most of these clowns.

The other aspect of this that gets tricky is that in the old delivery model--still intact somewhat, but not as monolithic as it was--the LP was a unit of commerce that some folks decided to burden with the status of art. This has caused all kinds of hocus-pocus over the years. We could literally spend the rest of our lives debating what track sequences, "concept album" definitions, etc., etc. And all of it would lead nowhere--often interestingly, but inconclusively.

Of course Pet Sounds is overrated. All of the LPs in the "Rock Critics" Top 100 are. It's the nature of the beast for this type of stuff. What seems to differentiate it in the minds of most is a shared sense of stylistic unity which seems mostly lacking in the commerce-art receptacles called LPs released by the band. Many will argue for this being present in certain favored LPs: Today, Wild Honey, Friends, Sunflower, Holland, Love You--but there is no universal agreement to be had for these...only for Pet Sounds. It's an LP that is SO perfect that it might seem too self-contained for those who've become familiar with the waywardness of the BBs oeuvre--and how that waywardness radiates through the creative exploits of the other band members--Dennis' songwriting, Carl's production "bubble" in the late 60s-early 70s, Brian's post-SMiLE desire to write contrapuntal tracks from very minimalist musical materials instead of the original "lusher" composition style, which I think he generally thinks led him down a rabbit hole.

All of that makes this waywardness interesting to us, but it won't help folks who are dead-set on fetishizing the commerce-art receptacle. They will be revising away forever, and to little useful effect. Meanwhile, here we can appreciate the unity of inspiration that is represented by Pet Sounds and forage elsewhere for the diversity of inspiration that is also abundantly at our fingertips...

[D Cunningham]

Don M...like your thoughts.  The tyranny of the art-LP item (thanks to Bob Dylan?) has always grated.
Considering the great works...all have their blemishes.  Even with Dante, one can say, geez, did it have
to be this long?  Perhaps the problem lies in the language of description and the urge to chauvinism.
Human failings...how they grate/are frustrating.  So, not the art itself.

With Pet Sounds...having heard Caroline No at the proper speed...I hope never to hear the sped-up
version again.

Still, a pretty good album...

[guitarfool2002]

I'll go back to one of my original comments, although my thoughts overall have already been expressed in the posts of "Chocolate Shake Man", Bicyclerider, and others.

The statements about something being overrated, in this case a particular album, usually say as much if not more about the person stating them as it does about the actual issue being discussed. So much of it comes down to basic opinion, whether there is or isn't that immediate feeling of connecting with or not connecting with an album, song, or any work of art.

I do think there has been even more of a trend toward self-elevation of one's own importance in the areas of music journalism and criticism especially in the past 15 years or so, give or take. Not that the sometimes overt narcissism of some of the writers and pundits wasn't always there, and it is far from exclusive to rock or pop or 'alternative' music writers and critics, but there seems to be an increase in critics writing from an Ivory Tower where their perspective is presented with an underlying implication that they know better and are dispensing information to the great unwashed masses.

I like to read opinions, I like to read and debate them pro and con, but arguing opinions is another matter entirely. If someone tags Sgt Pepper or Pet Sounds or any of my personal favorites with the descriptive "overrated", it's different than saying "I just don't get it, I can't connect with it, I don't like it...etc." I can offer any number of factors from musical to technical and even veer into the emotional to present my own case, and if necessary defend or support the reasons why Pepper or Pet Sounds are so highly regarded. However, the term overrated is loaded before the discussion even begins.

If "Album X" is declared overrated, then the natural response should be "in relation to what other albums?". Something can't be declared overrated unless there is a perspective given and a counter to the example offered...in this case there would be an album or albums that the person commenting would need to cite and which would by nature be "underrated" relative to "Album X" according to that person's perspective.

And because of that, the term "overrated" again exposes more about the commentator than it does about the work being commented on, and right there for me is the pitfall.

There are literally so many variables involved in these issues that it becomes an endless loop that usually comes back to semantics and basic aesthetics, as in what someone things is good versus not good. And it's pure opinion.

I do believe there is a dividing line between "overrated" and "underrated". Overrated has a negative connotation, as in the person using that word to describe a work is attempting to diminish it in some way, even if very slight. Underrated projects a more positive perspective, where a work is going to be boosted or praised to show that perhaps something that person likes should be getting more attention if not a reevaluation from a wider audience. I would much rather hear a case made for the latter, as in "it's underrated" but without the necessity to find negatives about it in order to back up the case.

[Ang Jones]

Whether the word 'overrated' or 'underrated' is used it suggests that there is a correct place for an album (or anything else!) to be in the scale of things, and those who haven't discovered that placing are in the wrong. Perhaps rating isn't 100% subjective but it depends on personal taste, fashion, and indeed, where you came in, because someone who was alive before Pet Sounds and others were released will have a different perception from someone whose experience of music has dated from the time when it was influenced by those albums. Some of today's music would undoubtedly be different had Pet Sounds not been released - how different, we cannot tell.

It is surely arrogant though to suggest that because any of us is personally unable to appreciate a particular album, that means it is over-rated. I would reserve 'over-rated' to works where you can hear things that are undeniably wrong - for example plagiarism, singing off-key, badly scanned or cliched lyrics and overly predictable melodies.

[guitarfool2002]

There is an element of arrogance and inflated self-opinion involved, yes - But even that might be my own perspective and interpretation shading that opinion. However there are writers and critics (amplified ten-fold by the 'blogosphere' and the ability of anyone to buy a web domain and start writing criticism and opinion pieces free of any publishing concerns) who are clearly coming from their own perspectives to make definitive opinions turn into preaching or dispensing wisdom versus expressing opinion as purely visceral reactions to a work and declaring whether or not they like it personally and listing reasons why. It's when *that* element where pure opinion becomes written into the history starts actually becoming considered part of the history that we should at least raise an eyebrow and say...hold the phone, this is one person saying "Album X" is overrated and is not part of the history.

There are definite, concrete reasons why a certain work of art reaches a high status in the critical and public sphere, and with everything from Pet Sounds to Sgt Pepper to "Citizen Kane" to Andy Warhol, these reasons can be presented factually and backed up with evidence both of the time and in subsequent generations' worth of rediscovery and reevaluation. Why are certain artists and works of art elevated to that high level? Those cases can be made. However, someone looking back and saying that work is or has been "overrated" takes on that negative connotation where that person is about to give a list of negatives to try knocking the work down a few pegs in order to back up what is basically their own visceral reaction of not liking as much something that others have elevated to the "greatness" or legendary status.

It's mainly a case of personal taste, but I am more willing to hear someone tell me why they think something is underrated because it will open up their emotions in stating the positives which shaped their opinion versus trying to list negatives to degrade a work that I may love or even one which has reached that rare position of being universally praised as a legend.

It's also a case by case basis, as is much of life in general. Is it acceptable to write an article or state a case that the following artists are overrated? Pearl Jam, The Pixies, Nirvana, Beyonce, Tarantino, JD Salinger, Kanye West, The Velvet Underground, etc etc etc? Consider the reactions if instead of Pet Sounds being the subject of an article about being overrated, it were instead Beyonce or Bowie or Pearl Jam or any number of other hugely popular artists. Then consider the reasoning behind those reactions and factor in how much more there is than making a blanket case that something or someone is "overrated".

[Lonely Summer]

I said earlier that PS is overrated in relation to the rest of the BB's catalog, but it's not the most overrated BB album. That honor belongs to Love You.  Most underrated album is Smiley Smile.

[Hickory Violet Part IV]

Presumptious? Arrogant? Ha, I've been called worse.....

I agree that overrated/underrated are loaded terms. What I genuinely have though is a knee jerk reaction when I hear Sgt Pepper being referred to as 'the greatest album ever'   Same as when anyone tells me Oasis were the best band of the 90s

So, to me, using the term 'overrated' is only ever a reaction to terms like  'best' or ' greatest'

Would you not agree that those could equally be construed as loaded terms?

[Ang Jones]

Presumptious? Arrogant? Ha, I've been called worse.....

I agree that overrated/underrated are loaded terms. What I genuinely have though is a knee jerk reaction when I hear Sgt Pepper being referred to as 'the greatest album ever'   Same as when anyone tells me Oasis were the best band of the 90s

So, to me, using the term 'overrated' is only ever a reaction to terms like  'best' or ' greatest'

Would you not agree that those could equally be construed as loaded terms?

No offence intended - i've undoubtedly used the word 'overrated' about albums I don't like or don't 'get'. And I do agree that many of these words are loaded and very subjective. The difference though is the implicit criticism of those who have overrated a particular piece of work, whereas 'best' or 'greatest' may be a subjective and even an arguably incorrect statement but there is no such implication.

[HeyJude]

It's possible for something to be the greatest ever for all time and still be "overrated", based on some folks' interpretation of the word "overrated."

To some, unfortunately, "overrated" is just code for "I don't like it." That's not a good use of the word in my opinion.

To some, "overrated" is probably more akin to "overhyped" or "oversaturated"; you know, like the movie your buddy keeps telling you is awesome that you now *hate* even though you haven't seen it, just because you're sick of hearing about it. 

Then there's the more objective, put-on-your-critic-hat judgment. To say "Pet Sounds" is "overrated" in this sense, you need to be prepared to know your s**t about not just the BBs, but all of the popular and important music of that era and subsequent eras. You need to be able to explain at least some amount of music theory, or somehow engage in the specific musical nuances of the thing. Not just "this song sounds cheesy", etc.

I don't think PS is overrated, but I have no problem saying it's constant citations of the "greatest ever" may throw some people off. I've never understood the *constant* need to say the thing you like is the "GREATEST EVER!" I hear this all the time these days about *everything.* My thing is, why can't something just be really good, and leave it at that?

So yeah, if I was trying to turn someone on to PS, I probably wouldn't tell them it's the "GREATEST ALBUM OF ALL TIME" and start pulling out old Mojo magazines to show them the all-time lists and stuff. I would just tell them I think it's a great album, and maybe I'd mention how it might subvert their perception of the band (in cases where they only have passing familiarity).

I've played the BBs and specifically PS to people who *love* music who haven't just fallen head-over-heels in love with it (same with the Beatles, etc.). I can live with that. They usually tend to have a more focused idea of what kind of music they like. Sometimes they can even articulate what doesn't speak to their core about the BBs (or Beatles). One person I know really likes unique, solo voices like Nick Cave. While I can help them see things they will like about the Beach Boys, there's always going to be a limit when they literally *don't* like massive multi-part group harmonies. But the cool thing is, the people I know who aren't uber fans of PS or the BBs or Beatles are cool and don't try to then assume they know more than someone else and contend PS is "overrated."

[guitarfool2002]

Does anyone else notice how these "overrated" albums/artists/songs seem to run in cycles as far as which classic artist or album gets the "overrated" treatment in some circles of music criticism and journalism (not to mention online discussion) ?

I remember very well there was a specific time when I started to notice an influx of articles and commentaries going on the "Sgt Pepper is overrated" trip, and the only reason why I noticed it was because it seemed to be boiling up all at once among some writers and fans. Along with that declaration that Pepper is overrated came the listings of albums released around the same time as Pepper which ostensibly were "better", and I guess trying to imply were more deserving of the ratings that Pepper had been receiving. Floyd, Love, Zombies, go down the usual list.

Now Pet Sounds is in that same grinder.

I'm already repeating earlier points I posted here, but can someone list some albums that would/could/should be rated higher from Pet Sounds' peer group which would make a case that it is overrated? And on what other standards and parameters would that rating be judged? Is it exclusive to each album, or relative to its surrounding and era, etc etc etc?

I won't hold my breath waiting for that list. Ultimately it means little to nothing because it's yet again more of a statement of opinion and musical preferences than it is a true attempt to have a discussion without getting into arguing opinions, semantics, and personal biases.

Or if it isn't possible to craft such a list relative to Pet Sounds or even Pepper, how about the earlier point: Are there artists who are off-limits when it comes to applying the "overrated" label to their work or to them in general, and if so, why are they off-limits while some fall into the critical grinder of negative reevaluation every time the trend recycles itself?

[the captain]

Does anyone else notice how these "overrated" albums/artists/songs seem to run in cycles as far as which classic artist or album gets the "overrated" treatment in some circles of music criticism and journalism (not to mention online discussion) ?

Yes, yes, a thousand times yes.

[HeyJude]

Several years back, I saw "Sgt. Pepper" at #1 on a list of "Worst Albums of All Time." No ridiculous extreme is off limits.

There's a point at which, especially *these* days, a lot of these essays and articles are kind of just click-bait.

"Why Sgt. Pepper is Awful" is probably going to get more "shocked and stunned!" reactions these days than another "Sgt. Pepper is Still a Classic!" headline.

[Hickory Violet Part IV]

Presumptious? Arrogant? Ha, I've been called worse.....

I agree that overrated/underrated are loaded terms. What I genuinely have though is a knee jerk reaction when I hear Sgt Pepper being referred to as 'the greatest album ever'   Same as when anyone tells me Oasis were the best band of the 90s

So, to me, using the term 'overrated' is only ever a reaction to terms like  'best' or ' greatest'

Would you not agree that those could equally be construed as loaded terms?

No offence intended - i've undoubtedly used the word 'overrated' about albums I don't like or don't 'get'. And I do agree that many of these words are loaded and very subjective. The difference though is the implicit criticism of those who have overrated a particular piece of work, whereas 'best' or 'greatest' may be a subjective and even an arguably incorrect statement but there is no such implication.

 

Course I'm not offended Ang! By you or anyone else. I'm enjoying the discussion.

[Hickory Violet Part IV]

Does anyone else notice how these "overrated" albums/artists/songs seem to run in cycles as far as which classic artist or album gets the "overrated" treatment in some circles of music criticism and journalism (not to mention online discussion) ?

I remember very well there was a specific time when I started to notice an influx of articles and commentaries going on the "Sgt Pepper is overrated" trip, and the only reason why I noticed it was because it seemed to be boiling up all at once among some writers and fans. Along with that declaration that Pepper is overrated came the listings of albums released around the same time as Pepper which ostensibly were "better", and I guess trying to imply were more deserving of the ratings that Pepper had been receiving. Floyd, Love, Zombies, go down the usual list.

Now Pet Sounds is in that same grinder.

I'm already repeating earlier points I posted here, but can someone list some albums that would/could/should be rated higher from Pet Sounds' peer group which would make a case that it is overrated? And on what other standards and parameters would that rating be judged? Is it exclusive to each album, or relative to its surrounding and era, etc etc etc?

I won't hold my breath waiting for that list. Ultimately it means little to nothing because it's yet again more of a statement of opinion and musical preferences than it is a true attempt to have a discussion without getting into arguing opinions, semantics, and personal biases.

Or if it isn't possible to craft such a list relative to Pet Sounds or even Pepper, how about the earlier point: Are there artists who are off-limits when it comes to applying the "overrated" label to their work or to them in general, and if so, why are they off-limits while some fall into the critical grinder of negative reevaluation every time the trend recycles itself?

Yes, it does run in cycles. Personally I've  had a problem with Sgt Pepper since about 1984, and its been constant.

As I've already stated. I call it overrated in relation to it being called 'the greatest album ever'. That is the language I take exception against, and overrated is the term I choose to retaliate with. You take exception to me using the word overrated.

As also stated, 'best' and 'greatest' are just a loaded as 'overrated', and can irritate just as much.

Either we choose to accept we are both having a valid reaction to a term we don't like and agree to disagree, or we take the route that one of us is right and one of us is wrong.

Personally I choose the former.

[guitarfool2002]

Does anyone else notice how these "overrated" albums/artists/songs seem to run in cycles as far as which classic artist or album gets the "overrated" treatment in some circles of music criticism and journalism (not to mention online discussion) ?

I remember very well there was a specific time when I started to notice an influx of articles and commentaries going on the "Sgt Pepper is overrated" trip, and the only reason why I noticed it was because it seemed to be boiling up all at once among some writers and fans. Along with that declaration that Pepper is overrated came the listings of albums released around the same time as Pepper which ostensibly were "better", and I guess trying to imply were more deserving of the ratings that Pepper had been receiving. Floyd, Love, Zombies, go down the usual list.

Now Pet Sounds is in that same grinder.

I'm already repeating earlier points I posted here, but can someone list some albums that would/could/should be rated higher from Pet Sounds' peer group which would make a case that it is overrated? And on what other standards and parameters would that rating be judged? Is it exclusive to each album, or relative to its surrounding and era, etc etc etc?

I won't hold my breath waiting for that list. Ultimately it means little to nothing because it's yet again more of a statement of opinion and musical preferences than it is a true attempt to have a discussion without getting into arguing opinions, semantics, and personal biases.

Or if it isn't possible to craft such a list relative to Pet Sounds or even Pepper, how about the earlier point: Are there artists who are off-limits when it comes to applying the "overrated" label to their work or to them in general, and if so, why are they off-limits while some fall into the critical grinder of negative reevaluation every time the trend recycles itself?

Yes, it does run in cycles. Personally I've  had a problem with Sgt Pepper it since about 1984, and its been constant.

As I've already stated. I call it overrated in relation to it being called 'the greatest album ever'. That is the language I take exception against, and overrated is the term I choose to retaliate with. You take exception to me using the word overrated.

As also stated, 'best' and 'greatest' are just a loaded as 'overrated', and can irritate just as much.

Either we choose to accept we are both having a valid reaction to a term we don't like and agree to disagree, or we take the route that one of us is right and one of us is wrong.

Personally I choose the former.

Just to be clear, I don't take exception to anything *you* said and never did take exception, nor am I replying to anything specific from your specific posts. It's the trend overall and the behaviors/patterns overall that I've seen regarding all this stuff that I addressed.

It's been going on for awhile, but it seems to have intensified in the past 15 years or so (coinciding with the rise of the internet as a communication tool? ) where there are more efforts to knock down what some consider "sacred cows" among albums and artists. Keep in mind, it's that specific notion when applied to art/music and the like which is the issue I'm addressing. If someone says "grilled cheese sandwiches are overrated", I could care less.

I've already listed a lot of factors and parameters that can be involved in this - But there are also some societal, interpersonal, and even psychological factors in some of it. It could be the notion of "click bait", which amounts to wanting attention and fishing for it by baiting people with those kinds of comments expected to get a strong reaction, positive or negative. It could be the notion of championing the underdog and the downtrodden, sometimes for the sake of championing the underdog as a personal thing rather than based on the quality of that underdog's artistic output or quality. Sometimes it's the caricature of the guys at the record shows and swap meets who have to play the game of one-upmanship with those around them using music as the weapon of choice. When someone shares something they like, those types have to do it one better as much to boost themselves and the self-esteem versus the desire to share with a fellow fan. And some of it is whatever formerly underground sub-cultures now brought to the fore by the internet and anonymity bring to the table in the way of enjoying kocking down the popular stuff in favor of some obscure stuff that never went beyond a regional pressing of 1,000 LP's back in 1966 but is truly spectacular and "better" than the popular stuff. Often what happens then is if and when that 1,000 copy great lost unknown obscure underrated album gets attention from a wide audience or even gets mass attention and heaps of praise, some in that sub-group do the equivalent of shouting "sell out!" and may even start to call their once-beloved and championed "lil ol album that only we knew about before anyone" overrated.

Just throwing out some thoughts and ideas, but consider they can be applied to many of the cycles and trends that have been hitting articles and commentaries regarding what is overrated.

[thorgil]

It's not that PS is overrated. It's that too many (ab)use the excellency of PS as a hammer to beat down whatever else the Beach Boys and Brian Wilson have done. I have read far too many variations on "nice, but it's not Pet Sounds". Saying such a thing is boring, is trite, is lazy, and most importantly is unfair.

Just try to figure how you'd like it people treated that way everything you do in life. Nice, but...