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Author Topic: Piano on Darlin'  (Read 12291 times)
Joshilyn Hoisington
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« Reply #25 on: February 25, 2017, 10:12:21 AM »

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Rumor has it that Brian called in a piano tuner to de-tune the Chickering for the overdub, but that's rather expensive and inconvenient since the piano once detuned would need to be completely re-tuned once the overdub is finished.

Not if you just leave the piano that way for 4 albums and keep it maintained...

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I've heard the tracking tape from the "Darlin'" basic session, and the piano Brian is playing on the incomplete takes sounds exactly like the piano on the final mix.

Right, and it's not like it's that crazy of a tuning.  It's just a very bright tuning, and you can hear similar tunings on pianos that the BBs used at other studios.
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« Reply #26 on: February 25, 2017, 10:19:35 AM »

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Rumor has it that Brian called in a piano tuner to de-tune the Chickering for the overdub, but that's rather expensive and inconvenient since the piano once detuned would need to be completely re-tuned once the overdub is finished.

Not if you just leave the piano that way for 4 albums and keep it maintained...

Quote
I've heard the tracking tape from the "Darlin'" basic session, and the piano Brian is playing on the incomplete takes sounds exactly like the piano on the final mix.

Right, and it's not like it's that crazy of a tuning.  It's just a very bright tuning, and you can hear similar tunings on pianos that the BBs used at other studios.

 I was just going to ask you… Do we know for how many albums beyond this one that this piano, with its unusual tuning, was still being utilized by the band?
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Stephen W. Desper
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« Reply #27 on: February 25, 2017, 10:41:21 AM »

Guitarfool2000 - I've heard the tracking tape from the "Darlin'" basic session, and the piano Brian is playing on the incomplete takes sounds exactly like the piano on the final mix. It's obviously de-tuned, or specialty-tuned, but it's not standard concert-tuning. I believe he did overdub another piano part, with masking tape (or some other kind of tape, like gaffer's tape) applied to the strings - for that overdub, he seems to have played in a higher octave. But the essential, funky "Darlin'" piano sound we all know and love was created mostly by Brian playing a piano that had been "doctored" in some way before its sound ever hit the recording tape.  
COMMENT to Guitarfool2000: Yes, I've heard the tapes also (and added to them). The so-called treated piano was undoubtedly a composite (ping-ponged) track. Back when Darlin', and even before that, was recorded, certain Piano Tuners (a person who tunes a piano) specialized in tuning for studio recording. The standard approach to piano tuning will give you that "concert sound" or fairly straight forward sound. Studio Piano Tuners had variations on the regular tuning of a piano. Like the barber asks you, "want it long or short?", the piano tuner would ask you, "do you want it tight or loose?"
As you know each non-bass note in the piano is sounded by the hammer striking two or three strings simultaneously.  These two or three strings-per-note can be tuned to be sightly or widely de-tuned each string from the other. At times, Brian would ask for a loose tuning so that the piano had a more twanging sound.
I remember one Piano Tuner in particular had quite the reputation for this type of tuning -- even traveling up to Alan's Red Barn Studio in BigSur to loose-tune his piano for a session. He was not your Aunt Mary's upright in the parlor, piano tuner.  His fee in today's dollar value was between $500 to $750 per visit plus mileage.
As for the masking-tape-on-the-strings piano . . . It was probably the same Chickering with tape applied -- and probably by me, as I introduced that technique to the band early on.

~SWD    
« Last Edit: February 25, 2017, 11:06:26 AM by Stephen W. Desper » Logged
RubberSoul13
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« Reply #28 on: February 25, 2017, 11:12:07 AM »

Whether it's the same piano or not I do not know, but I can hear the same timbre in places on every record up to and including "Surf's Up" in '71.
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« Reply #29 on: February 25, 2017, 11:13:47 AM »

Stephen - Your reply is to C-Man, that's not my quote nor my issue about the session tapes or piano tuning. I posted about the R&B and hip-hop vocal mixing technique that was digitally a similar technique as you had done analog, as you described.

The quotes somehow got mixed up in the replies.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2017, 11:31:17 AM by guitarfool2002 » Logged

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« Reply #30 on: February 25, 2017, 02:59:23 PM »

Whether it's the same piano or not I do not know, but I can hear the same timbre in places on every record up to and including "Surf's Up" in '71.

 Very cool. Any specific examples of post-WH songs you hear it on?
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« Reply #31 on: February 25, 2017, 09:10:44 PM »

Whether it's the same piano or not I do not know, but I can hear the same timbre in places on every record up to and including "Surf's Up" in '71.

 Very cool. Any specific examples of post-WH songs you hear it on?

It's all over the Friends LP. No doubt about that.

On 20/20, I can hear it on "I Went To Sleep" and "Time To Get Alone", albeit low in the mix...and maybe on the album version of "Cotton Fields" although that piano doesn't sound as jangly and wonky.

On Sunflower, "Slip on Through" "Our Sweet Love" and "Cool, Cool Water" all seem to be that same piano to my ears, I have no evidence beyond that.

I'd draw the line there. I can't seem to pick it out anywhere on the Surf's Up LP as I previously said, but that doesn't mean it isn't in there or on other tracks that I neglected to pick up on from 20/20 & Sunflower.

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Stephen W. Desper
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« Reply #32 on: February 26, 2017, 04:35:14 PM »

Whether it's the same piano or not I do not know, but I can hear the same timbre in places on every record up to and including "Surf's Up" in '71.

 Very cool. Any specific examples of post-WH songs you hear it on?

It's all over the Friends LP. No doubt about that.

On 20/20, I can hear it on "I Went To Sleep" and "Time To Get Alone", albeit low in the mix...and maybe on the album version of "Cotton Fields" although that piano doesn't sound as jangly and wonky.

On Sunflower, "Slip on Through" "Our Sweet Love" and "Cool, Cool Water" all seem to be that same piano to my ears, I have no evidence beyond that.

I'd draw the line there. I can't seem to pick it out anywhere on the Surf's Up LP as I previously said, but that doesn't mean it isn't in there or on other tracks that I neglected to pick up on from 20/20 & Sunflower.



COMMENT to RS13:   Chickering Concert Grand Piano
  


This is most interesting to me.  I have never seen such comments before. You must have extraordinary listening abilities. I say that because you are right-on with your observations.

From your post (above) all named songs or LPs in red have in common that the featured piano in all of these songs was the same Chickering piano miked and EQed by the same engineer. However the tuning of the piano was not constant, so I could assume what you hear is probably common to the instrument. From your comments, you are able to recognize the sonic signature of this instrument from others.

To underscore that observation, the named LP in green, where you did not hear the sonic signature, featured a piano located at Columbia Studios (pre-dating all the others by many years) and the other prominent piano used on the Surf's Up LP were holdover tracks from Western Studios using a Steinway piano. Interesting that you were able to not-hear the Chickering when it was, in fact, not recorded -- and hear the Chickering on songs in which it was recorded.

Man, you are blessed with some great ears !!

Just to show you how large a concert grand piano is, take a look from the angle below. And to think we had two of these behemoths in the house studio, side-by-side.



Chickering & Bros. when out of business in 1983. But the company is old enough to have made a Chickering Piano owned by President Abraham Lincoln and played at the White House.

Here's an interesting history of the Chickering Piano Company >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L4yfS1bEHz8

If you wish to see a demo guide video of a Chickering Concert Grand simular to the one owned by Brian Wilson, here is a good example >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRyOIjkhMpI
 ~SWD  
« Last Edit: February 26, 2017, 04:40:57 PM by Stephen W. Desper » Logged
Don Malcolm
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« Reply #33 on: February 26, 2017, 06:47:36 PM »

Now THIS is an example of a great thread with tremendous historical detail and analytical value-added. Capped off, of course, by Stephen's encyclopedic recall, helping to confirm some fascinating (and impressive) analysis from RubberSoul.

I remember reading Arthur Schmidt's reviews of Friends and 20/20 for ROLLING STONE--Schmidt was more on top of the music than any of the other reviewers--and he specifically talks about the high preponderance of tracks that were anchored by what he called "subtle, humorous, but nonetheless driving piano" and indicated that the piano had become the central instrument in what he called at the time (1969) Brian's "later work."

Though Schmidt clearly wasn't in a position to know about the particularities of piano model and the special tuning it received, we can connect the dots here to confirm that for Brian (and the tracks mentioned are, with only one exception, all tunes where Brian is the lead writer) he was using the sound of that piano to establish the overall sonic signature for his songs in this time frame.

And the reason why it would seem to be absent from SURF'S UP (the LP) is because the primary insturment that Brian was using to anchor his tracks was not the piano, but the organ.

Question: what about the piano tack on "Don't Go Near The Water"? Stephen, do you have any recollections regarding that track? And RubberSoul13, what about the piano that dominates Dennis' "Got to Know the Woman"??
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« Reply #34 on: February 26, 2017, 09:26:06 PM »

Thank you for the kind words...what can I say, I just might happen to be a Jazz Piano/Music Education major!  Wink

"Got To Know The Woman" definitely does not sound like the same piano at all. I don't know what it is, but it's not the Chickering.
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« Reply #35 on: February 27, 2017, 04:33:14 AM »

Quote
author=Don Malcolm link=topic=24836.msg604928#msg604928 date=1488163656

Question: what about the piano tack on "Don't Go Near The Water"? Stephen, do you have any recollections regarding that track? And RubberSoul13, what about the piano that dominates Dennis' "Got to Know the Woman"??
 

COMMENT to Don Malcolm: DGNTW is detailed in part two of my book -- whenever I get time to publish it.  ~swd
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Stephen W. Desper
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« Reply #36 on: February 27, 2017, 04:40:10 AM »

Thank you for the kind words...what can I say, I just might happen to be a Jazz Piano/Music Education major!  Wink

"Got To Know The Woman" definitely does not sound like the same piano at all. I don't know what it is, but it's not the Chickering.

COMMENT to RubberSoul13:  You are right again Mr. Jazz Man!  At the time GTKTW was recorded, a rented 9-foot Concert Grand piano manufactured by Baldwin was sitting next to the Chickering in the studio. Dennis preferred the action of the Baldwin and so that was the piano sound you hear for GTKTW.  ~swd
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RubberSoul13
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« Reply #37 on: February 27, 2017, 09:40:27 AM »

Thank you for the kind words...what can I say, I just might happen to be a Jazz Piano/Music Education major!  Wink

"Got To Know The Woman" definitely does not sound like the same piano at all. I don't know what it is, but it's not the Chickering.

COMMENT to RubberSoul13:  You are right again Mr. Jazz Man!  At the time GTKTW was recorded, a rented 9-foot Concert Grand piano manufactured by Baldwin was sitting next to the Chickering in the studio. Dennis preferred the action of the Baldwin and so that was the piano sound you hear for GTKTW.  ~swd

I will never get tired of reading all these stories on here, it's nice when these threads function properly...how's that book coming along?  LOL
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« Reply #38 on: February 27, 2017, 09:53:31 AM »

As an aside - I think in the Tom Nolan article from Rolling Stone in 70 or 71 Brian mentions Marilyn getting him a new piano for he 30th birthday.  He mentioned that some of the "keys stick".  I believe it was a Steinway.  So much for the Chickering at that point.
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RubberSoul13
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« Reply #39 on: February 27, 2017, 07:26:03 PM »

As an aside - I think in the Tom Nolan article from Rolling Stone in 70 or 71 Brian mentions Marilyn getting him a new piano for he 30th birthday.  He mentioned that some of the "keys stick".  I believe it was a Steinway.  So much for the Chickering at that point.

Which would make perfect sense on the timeline, as it seems its usage extends from Wild Honey ('67) through Sunflower ('70) !
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Stephen W. Desper
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« Reply #40 on: February 27, 2017, 09:25:55 PM »

As an aside - I think in the Tom Nolan article from Rolling Stone in 70 or 71 Brian mentions Marilyn getting him a new piano for he 30th birthday.  He mentioned that some of the "keys stick".  I believe it was a Steinway.  So much for the Chickering at that point.

COMMENT:  Sorry you guys, but that's how we mortals would interpret those stories. Think BIG. Brain's house in Bel Aire had a Steinway in the formal living room, an upright in one of the upstairs bedrooms, another smaller Steinway (baby grand) in the upstairs family quarters and a Chickering 9-foot Concert Grand accompanied at times by another Baldwin 9-foot concert grand in the studio. That's four to five pianos. Seems like a lot of pianos, but they were pocket change to buy for Brian ... and he likes pianos. M's Steinway was in the family area where the children played. Who knows what gum or soda pop found its way into the mechanism. But these stories have little to do with the reality of the house. The Chickering was a magnificent piano. (Go back and take time to review the history of Chickering Bros. Co. -- a few of my posts back there is a link.) It was given to Brian by his Dad early in their carrier. Many people consider a Chickering piano more desirable than a Steinway. They are louder, therefore produce greater playing dynamics (pianissimo to forte -- hence the actual name for a piano is "piano-forte" meaning soft to loud, in contrast to the other competing keyboard instrument, the harpsichord. It was all the same level or loudness, no soft or loud.), and can fill a concert hall with authority. However, they require a heavy hand to play. Chickering predates Steinway. Because Chickering had patents and used design techniques before Steinway entered the market, the Chickering sound has more emphasis in the lower overtones, more "bloom," a more romantic sound. Steinway, being a lighter harp (chassis) leans more toward upper harmonics, making it more suitable to popular recording. Don't get me wrong, Steinway is certainly a treasured concert instrument, but Chickering is no lightweight. It's just that you don't see too many of them since their market value is sky high, usually higher than Steinway if an older instrument.  

Another instrument that Brian loved to play and to record was owned by United Recorders, where Chuck Briz worked. It was a Yamaha C-7 7-foot Grand Piano, I believe. Everyone loved that piano. It was famous among pop musicians. I've seen side-man keyboard players just sit at instrument with their hands on the keys in a trance -- socking in the vibs from this piano's legacy.  Everyone tracking with a piano in the mix liked to record using that piano. Name any half-way famous song and I'll bet you that piano was involved. It was never moved out of Studio B, it's home. On more than one occasion Brian offered a small fortune for the piano, but the studio would not sell. The piano was in constant use. But it was no beauty. Forgotten cigarettes left numerous burn marks to the sides and near the music sheet holder. It's finish was dull from scratches and use. Over the years the hammers had become hardened, seasoned hard. That gave the sound a slightly elevated leading edge when the string was struck. This tactical advantage would cut through a complex mix of sounds and instruments, so for recording it was fantastic. And the mechanism was so used it was very free and easy to play. A good player like RS13 could move up and down and all around the keyboard with great speed and dexterity. Players would say they could play many more notes in succession (you know, like on a run, a progression, a round or a trill) because the keys were so responsive. That old piano was probably the most recorded piano in modern rock music -- at least on the West Coast.  When United was sold, the piano remained in use -- even today.

And what discussion about Brian's pianos would not be complete without a mention of his toy piano. (see >>> https://www.etsy.com/listing/109924907/vintage-toy-piano-wooden-upright-natural). It really wasn't a piano, more like a chime played by a keyboard. But once in a while Brian would pull that little thing out for one sweetening track or another. Check out the sound and you may just remember hearing it somewhere. (Sound >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gxyoR5Ss2g)


~swd
« Last Edit: February 27, 2017, 10:38:09 PM by Stephen W. Desper » Logged
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« Reply #41 on: February 28, 2017, 07:47:35 AM »

what, 5 pianos there and no Bluthner?
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« Reply #42 on: February 28, 2017, 08:00:56 AM »

what, 5 pianos there and no Bluthner?
COMMENT to hideyosuburaya  Since Bluthner is used by The Beatles, I doubt he would be interested. I played a few chords on that piano while visiting Abby Road Studios, where it resides. Whoopee!?!    ~swd
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« Reply #43 on: February 28, 2017, 10:00:34 AM »

two ways to look at it and the other's of course Brian could be interested (in a Bluthner) BECAUSE the beatles utilized it (if he knew).  pocket change (for him)?  well that's also debatable.

not that I have one, I vowed to stick w/ made in USA's, an old Lyon-Healy grand plus Charles Walters (last USA mfgr, w/ original pratt-read action) console
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« Reply #44 on: February 28, 2017, 11:17:28 AM »

two ways to look at it and the other's of course Brian could be interested (in a Bluthner) BECAUSE the beatles utilized it (if he knew). Don't think that Brian was not very aware of the music scene and industry trends. He moved with the best of them behind the scenes. Suggest you watch this interview for some insight on this topic.  (Brian Wilson & George Martin in the studio >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CnVyCuc9_P8[/b][/i]  

pocket change (for him)?  well that's also debatable. At that time Brian was clearing around 2 million a year. That's $2,700 PER DAY. Two or three days income would buy you one fine piano. "pocket change"

not that I have one, I vowed to stick w/ made in USA's, an old Lyon-Healy grand plus Charles Walters (last USA mfgr, w/ original pratt-read action) console  Nice.
COMMENTS to hideyotsuburaya are underscored above.  ~swd
« Last Edit: February 28, 2017, 11:19:57 AM by Stephen W. Desper » Logged
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« Reply #45 on: February 28, 2017, 11:23:39 AM »

Don't forget the Baldwin organ! Grin
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« Reply #46 on: March 01, 2017, 02:01:50 PM »

As an aside - I think in the Tom Nolan article from Rolling Stone in 70 or 71 Brian mentions Marilyn getting him a new piano for he 30th birthday.  He mentioned that some of the "keys stick".  I believe it was a Steinway.  So much for the Chickering at that point.

COMMENT:  Sorry you guys, but that's how we mortals would interpret those stories. Think BIG. Brain's house in Bel Aire had a Steinway in the formal living room, an upright in one of the upstairs bedrooms, another smaller Steinway (baby grand) in the upstairs family quarters and a Chickering 9-foot Concert Grand accompanied at times by another Baldwin 9-foot concert grand in the studio. That's four to five pianos. Seems like a lot of pianos, but they were pocket change to buy for Brian ... and he likes pianos. M's Steinway was in the family area where the children played. Who knows what gum or soda pop found its way into the mechanism. But these stories have little to do with the reality of the house. The Chickering was a magnificent piano. (Go back and take time to review the history of Chickering Bros. Co. -- a few of my posts back there is a link.) It was given to Brian by his Dad early in their carrier. Many people consider a Chickering piano more desirable than a Steinway. They are louder, therefore produce greater playing dynamics (pianissimo to forte -- hence the actual name for a piano is "piano-forte" meaning soft to loud, in contrast to the other competing keyboard instrument, the harpsichord. It was all the same level or loudness, no soft or loud.), and can fill a concert hall with authority. However, they require a heavy hand to play. Chickering predates Steinway. Because Chickering had patents and used design techniques before Steinway entered the market, the Chickering sound has more emphasis in the lower overtones, more "bloom," a more romantic sound. Steinway, being a lighter harp (chassis) leans more toward upper harmonics, making it more suitable to popular recording. Don't get me wrong, Steinway is certainly a treasured concert instrument, but Chickering is no lightweight. It's just that you don't see too many of them since their market value is sky high, usually higher than Steinway if an older instrument.  

Another instrument that Brian loved to play and to record was owned by United Recorders, where Chuck Briz worked. It was a Yamaha C-7 7-foot Grand Piano, I believe. Everyone loved that piano. It was famous among pop musicians. I've seen side-man keyboard players just sit at instrument with their hands on the keys in a trance -- socking in the vibs from this piano's legacy.  Everyone tracking with a piano in the mix liked to record using that piano. Name any half-way famous song and I'll bet you that piano was involved. It was never moved out of Studio B, it's home. On more than one occasion Brian offered a small fortune for the piano, but the studio would not sell. The piano was in constant use. But it was no beauty. Forgotten cigarettes left numerous burn marks to the sides and near the music sheet holder. It's finish was dull from scratches and use. Over the years the hammers had become hardened, seasoned hard. That gave the sound a slightly elevated leading edge when the string was struck. This tactical advantage would cut through a complex mix of sounds and instruments, so for recording it was fantastic. And the mechanism was so used it was very free and easy to play. A good player like RS13 could move up and down and all around the keyboard with great speed and dexterity. Players would say they could play many more notes in succession (you know, like on a run, a progression, a round or a trill) because the keys were so responsive. That old piano was probably the most recorded piano in modern rock music -- at least on the West Coast.  When United was sold, the piano remained in use -- even today.

And what discussion about Brian's pianos would not be complete without a mention of his toy piano. (see >>> https://www.etsy.com/listing/109924907/vintage-toy-piano-wooden-upright-natural). It really wasn't a piano, more like a chime played by a keyboard. But once in a while Brian would pull that little thing out for one sweetening track or another. Check out the sound and you may just remember hearing it somewhere. (Sound >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gxyoR5Ss2g)


~swd
 

There have been some great posts in the history of this website, and this, IMO, is up there with the best.  Thank you for your insights Mr. Desper.
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« Reply #47 on: March 01, 2017, 02:04:59 PM »

Yeah that was pretty awesome!
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« Reply #48 on: March 01, 2017, 03:34:38 PM »

RubberSoul--thanks, that's what I thought as well, and what a thrill to have Stephen give us the exact lowdown on the GTKTW session...

Now, what about the piano in "Mess of Help"--I'm thinking it's two different pianos, the first for the "framing" sound and the second for the "descending motifs" at the end of the verses. Or same piano with some treatments--maybe "tacked" up somehow. Hard to tell because there is so much else going on in the track...even though it's not Desper-engineered.

This thread is a reminder of the caliber of people that are still here, who really bring out the questions and observations that lead to the type of fascinating recollections evinced above. And it reminds us just how invested the band was in making the best possible music in the "Desper era."
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« Reply #49 on: March 01, 2017, 06:41:56 PM »

Thank you so very much Mr. Desper for such phenomenal stories!

It definitely has some sort of tack deal going on, but the trick must be in the recording process and not so much the instrument itself. Honestly, it's always reminded me of the sound on "Heroes and Villains", not that I necessarily think it's the same piano. I really don't think it's the Chickering, but I'm certainly not exempt from being wrong...I've just had a good record on this thread so far!  LOL
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