gfxgfx
 
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
logo
 
gfx gfx
gfx
680597 Posts in 27600 Topics by 4068 Members - Latest Member: Dae Lims March 28, 2024, 03:13:45 PM
*
gfx*HomeHelpSearchCalendarLoginRegistergfx
gfxgfx
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.       « previous next »
Pages: [1] Go Down Print
Author Topic: Heroes sections  (Read 3350 times)
buddhahat
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 2643


Hi, my name's Doug. Would you like to dance?


View Profile
« on: August 01, 2006, 01:44:07 PM »

I'm sure this question has been covered many times before but if so I've missed it. I apologise in advance to all the Smile veterans that may be groaning at the sight of this.

Basically, I've just finally read Priore's Look Listen Vibrate Smile. I know that there are a lot of inaccuries in there so it's difficult to know what to believe. Regarding Heroes and Villains part 2, priore describes it as basically the same as Heroes Sections from the GV boxset albeit minus the stuff prior to Gee and minus the False Barnyard fade.

I was recently assuming that Heroes Sections was not a Brian Wilson mix, but rather a series of sections that he was experimenting with for Heroes and Villains the single, i.e. possibly different try outs but not necessarily parts that belonged together in a song. These were then edited together for the boxset. The subject came up on the board before but there seemed to be differences of opinion. Is there any solid evidence that any of these sections belong together, i.e this was Brian's intention?

Priore suggests that Linnett sequenced this 'H&V part 2' from Brian's direction to the BB on the master tape. Did H&V part 2 potentially exist? Is it basically the main guts of Heroes Sections on the boxset, or is this part 2 idea rubbish, i.e. it was all recordings intended (but many discarded) for H&V?

Thanks in advance.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2006, 03:10:06 AM by buddhahat » Logged

Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes ......
Andreas
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 226


View Profile
« Reply #1 on: August 01, 2006, 11:24:19 PM »

The "Heroes And Villains Sections" track on the GV box set was edited together from various sections by Mark Linett.

However, there is a track on SOT 17 which appears to be a mono mix done by Brian himself where the three variations of the "heroes and villains" chant are edited together. The first edit has an additional hand-clap which is not on the GV box set edit! It is unclear if that particular mix was considered finished or if it was just an assembly of different variations from which Brian was about to pick one for the final version. This mix does not contain the "swedish frog" section.
Logged
buddhahat
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 2643


Hi, my name's Doug. Would you like to dance?


View Profile
« Reply #2 on: August 01, 2006, 11:34:02 PM »

Many thanks Andreas. I have SOT 17 somewhere so I will give it a listen.

So really, this edit you're talking about is the closest thing we have to a Brian Wilson sequenced Heroes sections, even if, as you say, it may just have been a compilation.

Has anyone ever asked Mark Linnett how he came to sequence Sections for the box set, i.e if it was merely done by what sounded good in sequence, or whether as, Priore suggests, there were clues from Brian in the sessions? It always strikes me as strange that the western theme that sounds like an ending should be close to the beginning of the track.

Edit: Just realised my mistake - Linnett didn't sequence Heroes Sections. Has anyone asked him if his 88 edit, as mentioned in Priore's book, was sequenced according to Brian's instructions to group, heard on the session reel?

Also who sequenced Heroes sections on the boxset, and why did they sequence it the way they did beginning with the bicycle rider chant and ending with the False Barnyard?
« Last Edit: August 02, 2006, 12:24:59 AM by buddhahat » Logged

Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes ......
Andreas
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 226


View Profile
« Reply #3 on: August 02, 2006, 02:57:37 AM »

Many thanks Andreas. I have SOT 17 somewhere so I will give it a listen.
I think it's track 10 on disc 1, starting with the "Gee" (How I Love My Girl) bit. There is a glitch towards the end, at least on my copy.

Quote
Edit: Just realised my mistake - Linett didn't sequence Heroes Sections.
Yes, he did.

Quote
Has anyone asked him if his 88 edit, as mentioned in Priore's book, was sequenced according to Brian's instructions to group, heard on the session reel?
The 88 edit is the one that appears on the Vigotone bootleg. It is basically identical to the GV box set Sections edit, but instead of the "False Barnyard" coda, it has the full "My Children Were Raised..." ending from the single version, remixed.

Quote
Also who sequenced Heroes sections on the boxset, and why did they sequence it the way they did beginning with the bicycle rider chant and ending with the False Barnyard?
You have to ask Mark Linett. My guess is that, similar to the Good Vibrations Sessions edits on the Smiley Smile/Wild Honey twofer and on the GV box set disc 5, he wanted to present various sections edited together in a listenable form. Plus, he had that mono mix mentioned above as a guideline.

I have no idea what Priore means with according to Brian's instructions to group, heard on the session reel.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2006, 02:59:37 AM by Andreas » Logged
buddhahat
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 2643


Hi, my name's Doug. Would you like to dance?


View Profile
« Reply #4 on: August 02, 2006, 03:13:39 AM »

Many thanks Andreas. I have SOT 17 somewhere so I will give it a listen.
I think it's track 10 on disc 1, starting with the "Gee" (How I Love My Girl) bit. There is a glitch towards the end, at least on my copy.

Thanks Andreas. Yes I've just listened  to this track 10 on SOT 17. The section with the handclaps that follows Gee actually ends with the an 'aah' that sounds like the beginning of the Swedish Frog section (it ends abruptly as if it's been clipped before that SF part), so surely this implies that these two sections (the handlap Heroes and Swedish Frog) could have been edited together by Brian at some point, and were potentially designed to go together?
« Last Edit: August 02, 2006, 03:15:56 AM by buddhahat » Logged

Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes ......
The Shift
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 7427


Biding time


View Profile
« Reply #5 on: August 02, 2006, 03:23:04 AM »

I think the Heroes & Vibrations boot contains clues as to where each of these bits might flow together - what Brian says between takes of various sections could be taken as a guide.
Logged

“We live in divisive times.”
Bicyclerider
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 2132


View Profile
« Reply #6 on: August 02, 2006, 07:32:29 AM »

My understanding that the sequence on the box set Heroes is basically the same as on the Heroes comp reel, which was mistakenly assumed to be put together by Brian - it actually was put together by Stephen Desper and Carl, and so the order of the sections can't be assumed to be the same as Brian would have done.

That said, the SOT mono mix basically follows the same sequence for the dit dit dit parts - minus the swedish frog part (but it sounds like that part has been edited out, as there is a gap where it would have gone).
Logged
Cam Mott
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 4171


View Profile
« Reply #7 on: August 02, 2006, 01:28:05 PM »

I don't know about the sequence on SOT or box set, hopefully Mark will illuminate, but it appears to me that Brian identified the place or purpose or sequence of almost every H&V recording at the time of recording by written or spoken notation on or in the recording.

On a related tangent, H, does the PS' medley that was mastered for the GOK [?] single, but unused, fade between sections of songs, butt-cut sections of songs or how exactly is it put together? Thanks pal-o'-mine.
Logged

"Bring me the head of Carmen Sandiego" Lynne "The Chief" Thigpen
buddhahat
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 2643


Hi, my name's Doug. Would you like to dance?


View Profile
« Reply #8 on: August 03, 2006, 03:49:22 AM »

Hi Mr Linett,

Apologies if you've addressed this question many times before. I've had a brief search of the topics but can't find anything.

How did you sequence 'Heroes Sections' on The Good Vibrations Boxset? I know that apart from the ending, it is identical to the mix you did in 88. Did you arrange the parts based on what sounded good together or were there clues in the 66/67 sessions from Brian, as to how he intended these sections to be sequenced? Domenic Priore in his book Look Listen Vibrate Smile suggests that for the large part of 'Sections', the latter is true.

I have heard one boot that has a mix where several sections are sequenced similarly to yours. Another poster suggestes that other boots have futher clues, although some on this board have suggested that the sequence of Heroes Sections was based on a Carl Wilson/Stephen Desper comp tape from 1972, that had nothing to do with Brian. It strikes there is some confusion about this specific track, so any light you could shed on this query would be much appreciated.

Many thanks,

Ben

I just sequenced what sounded good..... I know we changed the end for the box so we didn't use a part of the Smiley version.... Mark

I posed this question in the Mark Linett thread and the above was his response, so it seems it was sequenced according to what bits sounded good together, although the middle sequence from Gee up to False Barnyard is remarkably similar to track 10 on SOT 17 as Andreas pointed out, so maybe Smile-era-Brian indirectly has something to do with this part?!

Heroes Sections more than any other track frustrates me as I never know what to do with it when doing a Smile mix. Do you split it  up and scatter the bits throughout as link tracks, or just leave it as it is?

 


Logged

Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes ......
Bubba Ho-Tep
Guest
« Reply #9 on: August 03, 2006, 06:40:13 AM »

No such thing as a link track…I leave it out. If it were going to appear anywhere it would have been as a B-side to H&V (maybe). I don’t see how it could have worked on the album, or as part of the final song. Let’s face it, it’s cool to use all the bits and pieces, but the addition of endless chants to H&V would have totally killed the momentum the song has going for it in all incarnations. It’s a fast paced western adventure, with a couple of romantic interludes, but it always has momentum, and I’m sure Brian wouldn’t have attempted to weight the song down like that. He’s very economical. Look at what he did with Good Vibrations. Less is more. Trim and trim until it’s just right. H&V ended up devoid of most of it’s quirkiness and abrupt stops by time it reached the Smiley stage, but that just goes to show that no matter how ‘avante-garde’ or experimental Brian seemed to be, he tinkered and tinkered and  usually ended up sticking with the conventional verse/chorus/verse/chorus/tag format. He’s a commercially minded composer. He knew he was getting too fancy for the public, like he says, so that’s why he canned Smile in the first place. He realized his dope-peddling buddies were steering him away from his true musical self. It’s not like he ever showed any interest in returning to the Smile format at anytime thereafter in his career, at least not on his own freewill (Rio Grande was someone else’s idea). We never heard him saying he missed the Smile stuff. He hated it. When asked to play Surf’s Up by Jeff and Stamos he called it a “pu**y song” and I think those are his true feelings. Still, perhaps with the completion of BWPS he now feels differently about the whole thing (he tends to change his mind a lot). All Brian ever wants to do is cut a rock and roll album. He’s a rocker. 2-3 minute pop songs. Yep. So the idea of a long version of H&V seems unlikely. The easiest way to come to understand Smile is to simplify the whole thing, because that’s what Brian would have ended up doing anyway. There was not massive theme or movements. It was a record of 12 individual songs with fade-outs.
Logged
Roger Ryan
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1528


View Profile
« Reply #10 on: August 03, 2006, 07:08:05 AM »

I think the experimentation with "SMiLE" influenced the way Brian approached songwriting and record making for the rest of his career. Throughout the 70s, 80s and 90s, Brian continued to take snippets of different feels and edit them together into songs ("This Whole World", "Funky Pretty", "Let Us Go On This Way", "Love & Mercy", "Happy Days" and so on and so on). Whether or not he thought "SMiLE" was an appropriate musical statement for the Beach Boys or for himself, it was certainly a breakthrough in Brian's creative development.

By the way, I used to take the various H & V chants and use them in place of the choruses in "Heroes & Villains" keeping the "Bicycle Rider" out of the composition all together. It did slow the momentum down somewhat, but not anymore than the BR theme does in the official versions.
Logged
Bicyclerider
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 2132


View Profile
« Reply #11 on: August 03, 2006, 10:08:35 AM »

Looking over Brian's body of work, I would hardly call Brian a "rocker."  Most of the "rockers" are on the first six Beach Boys albums.  Brian was much more a midtempo or ballad songwriter.  A "popper" might be a better description.  And while he keeps talking about doing a rock and roll album, I have my doubts we'll ever see something that most people would agree is solid rock and roll from start to finish.
Logged
Cam Mott
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 4171


View Profile
« Reply #12 on: August 03, 2006, 02:50:32 PM »

It seems more and more to me that H&V sections aren't album link tracks or even confused or obsessive recording but creative progression/modification in the recording for H&V and an H&V Part II, b-side to a H&V 45, that hinted at or referenced what was to come on the rest of the SMiLE album without giving too much away.  H&V Part II could have had not only its own master number but its own "intro", "prelude to fade", etc..  Am I missing something that makes that unlikely in a theoretical sense?

Brian's work on H&V and H&V Part II, or any of the rest of SMiLE, seems no more or less confused or redundant or obsessive or random or not-on-task then GV to me.  To my mind, he knew what he wanted and how he was going to do it and what he would do when he knew what didn't work for him [just like with GV] and, when almost none of it worked for his muse, he knew what he wanted to junk and how and what he wanted to re-create according to his muse's whim. 
Logged

"Bring me the head of Carmen Sandiego" Lynne "The Chief" Thigpen
buddhahat
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 2643


Hi, my name's Doug. Would you like to dance?


View Profile
« Reply #13 on: August 03, 2006, 04:06:12 PM »

It seems more and more to me that H&V sections aren't album link tracks or even confused or obsessive recording but creative progression/modification in the recording for H&V and an H&V Part II, b-side to a H&V 45, that hinted at or referenced what was to come on the rest of the SMiLE album without giving too much away.  H&V Part II could have had not only its own master number but its own "intro", "prelude to fade", etc..  Am I missing something that makes that unlikely in a theoretical sense?

Brian's work on H&V and H&V Part II, or any of the rest of SMiLE, seems no more or less confused or redundant or obsessive or random or not-on-task then GV to me.  To my mind, he knew what he wanted and how he was going to do it and what he would do when he knew what didn't work for him [just like with GV] and, when almost none of it worked for his muse, he knew what he wanted to junk and how and what he wanted to re-create according to his muse's whim. 

It does seem he was striving for something with these sections. Were they designed for a Part 2? What interests me about the Heroes sessions is that that there are definite beginnings and endings. Gee seems like an intro, Mrs Oleary's Cow could be according to it's alternate title, and prelude to fade (is that the western theme?) is fascinating as it is an ending of sorts. What is the 'fade' it preludes? Is that the Flutter Horn, as on one session the horn has some descending strings accompanying it that sounds like a fade? Anyway my point is that, with these sections it seems to me there are the faintly sketched outlines of another complete 'song' separate to H&V. Of course you could argue they're just discarded parts of H&V. The Western theme sounds so complete though and also, with the flutter horn it sounds like it's going somewhere. I find this the most intriguing of the unused sections.
Logged

Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes, Bedroom Tapes ......
Bicyclerider
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 2132


View Profile
« Reply #14 on: August 04, 2006, 01:47:16 PM »

The fade that the "prelude to fade" preceeds is a rerecord of the false Barnyard fade used for the cantina version.  So either he was going to end the A side of the single with prelude/fade, or it was destined for the Bside (Part 2) ending, depending on what you believe about a 2 sided single.
Logged
Cam Mott
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 4171


View Profile
« Reply #15 on: August 05, 2006, 08:14:24 AM »

It does seem he was striving for something with these sections.

And, imo, not only here but with the whole album.  I mean really, what is the evidence behind the enduring notions that Brian was not on-task and on-top of these recordings? 

He used the same method on G&V and no one I've seen has projected that he was not in control of himself, his creative faculties, or the recordings. H&V was finished and released [and Wonderful, Vegetables, Windchimes] which in itself seems to be another proof he knew what he wanted and did it, regardless of what was left in the can unused.
Logged

"Bring me the head of Carmen Sandiego" Lynne "The Chief" Thigpen
gfx
Pages: [1] Go Up Print 
gfx
Jump to:  
gfx
Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines Page created in 0.78 seconds with 21 queries.
Helios Multi design by Bloc
gfx
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!