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655371 Posts in 26184 Topics by 3725 Members - Latest Member: suitable_rasberry February 23, 2020, 09:52:17 AM
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Author Topic: What if Jan & Dean had joined The Beach Boys?  (Read 4446 times)
Mark A. Moore
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« Reply #25 on: January 26, 2017, 01:21:53 PM »

Jan played guitar and piano. This post was more about if Jan was in the group than Dean

It wouldn't have worked. But it's a moot point. Jan was under contract with Screen Gems, and the terms stipulated that he was not allowed to work officially with any other music act. (His songwriting collaborations were not affected by that stipulation).

It's my understanding that Jan and Mike Love did not get along with one another.

Murry resented Brian's collaborations with Jan (but after Brian tossed Murry, I could easily see Brian taunting his father by letting Murry think he was considering Jan for the band).

Jan was a headstrong leader for his own act. He had complete control, and worked in direct contact with Screen Gems on everything.

Jan could not have stepped into the Beach Boys and been a leader (but he could easily have played keyboards for live performances).

If anything, it would have been interesting if Jan and Brian could have collaborated more. But when you look at Brian's outside collaborators—Gary Usher, Bob Norberg, Roger Christian, Jan Berry, Tony Asher, and Van Dyke Parks—they were all short-term.

« Last Edit: January 28, 2017, 12:09:38 AM by Mark A. Moore » Logged

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« Reply #26 on: January 26, 2017, 02:05:54 PM »

Not to distract from this thread and play into stereotypical "SB" post, but did Mike Love get along with anybody ever in the music industry? Roll Eyes
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« Reply #27 on: January 26, 2017, 02:09:51 PM »

Not to distract from this thread and play into stereotypical "SB" post, but did Mike Love get along with anybody ever in the music industry? Roll Eyes

Terry Melcher and Bruce Johnston at least.  LOL

Well, I don't even know how much he presently is buddies with Bruce, they seem to have a sort of Ed McMahon/Johnny Carson type of relationship at this point.
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« Reply #28 on: January 26, 2017, 02:12:20 PM »


It's my understanding that Jan and Mike Love did not get along with one another.


I'm curious, do we know any of the reasons for this, and is this more pertaining to the 60s than, say, the late 70s when they toured together again? There's the obvious, that it was another outside collaborator (albeit one where the *other* band used the collaborations), which Mike has always seemed somewhat skeptical of.

I'm curious what else could have been a beef, but I don't know how much anyone in the BBs outside of Brian had much interaction with J&D. Obviously, they did some gigs together over the years.

Was Jan pissed at the "Mike & Dean" stuff in the 80s or something?
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Mark A. Moore
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« Reply #29 on: January 26, 2017, 02:30:25 PM »


It's my understanding that Jan and Mike Love did not get along with one another.


I'm curious, do we know any of the reasons for this, and is this more pertaining to the 60s than, say, the late 70s when they toured together again? There's the obvious, that it was another outside collaborator (albeit one where the *other* band used the collaborations), which Mike has always seemed somewhat skeptical of.

I'm curious what else could have been a beef, but I don't know how much anyone in the BBs outside of Brian had much interaction with J&D. Obviously, they did some gigs together over the years.

Was Jan pissed at the "Mike & Dean" stuff in the 80s or something?

It was in the '60s. Apparently, Jan could put the screws to Mike on an intellectual level. I suspect it was an ego thing on both sides.
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Rick5150
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« Reply #30 on: January 27, 2017, 06:36:48 AM »

It is not fair to compare Jan and Brian in the same timeline. Didn't Jan have a bit of a head start? I love the J&D albums - and really like 3 sides of the Jan and Dean Anthology album. Brian quickly learned the trade and then musically and lyrically and vocally surpassed Jan. Joining the Beach Boys would have done nothing for the Beach Boys. Like the Beach Boys, Jan & Dean had a surfer image - one that Brian was quickly shedding with his music.
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Steve Latshaw
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« Reply #31 on: January 27, 2017, 07:41:37 AM »

An interesting sidebar... when Mike went to Switzerland in the first half of 1977, The Beach Boys were considering tours early in the year.  Mike's specific recommendation... should the band elect to tour while he was out of the country... was that Dean Torrence take his place as front man.  That would have been interesting to see.

There was also some talk in 1978 that Mike and Bruce would join forces to produce a Jan Berry solo album.  I don't recall if it was speculation in the rock or fan press at that time... don't even recall where I read it.  May have been Sunshine Music or BBFUN.  Per Mark's excellent book, I believe A&M was close to releasing a solo LP from Jan... or at least a basic track line-up might have been proposed.  Mark?
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Mark A. Moore
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« Reply #32 on: January 27, 2017, 06:10:56 PM »

There was also some talk in 1978 that Mike and Bruce would join forces to produce a Jan Berry solo album.  I don't recall if it was speculation in the rock or fan press at that time... don't even recall where I read it.  May have been Sunshine Music or BBFUN.  Per Mark's excellent book, I believe A&M was close to releasing a solo LP from Jan... or at least a basic track line-up might have been proposed.  Mark?

An album of Jan's Ode and A&M recordings was proposed (10 tracks), but it was shelved when Jan began to focus on getting back on the road in '77 and '78 (Jan hit the road with his own Aloha band before he reunited with Dean).

I'm not aware of any album plans with Mike and Bruce, but I do know that 1978 marked the beginnings of Dean's re-recordings with Mike (after Dean's '77 re-makes with Papa Doo Run Run).
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« Reply #33 on: January 27, 2017, 07:15:18 PM »


 Apparently, Jan could put the screws to Mike on an intellectual level.

That doesn't seem, to me, to be an awfully difficult thing to 'accomplish'.  Thanks for the info on Jan Mark.  I was a fan from Surf City up to and including their Batman album.  The doo-wop stuff...not so much.  Pretty pedestrian filler really.  Brian gets a ton of credit for inventing a California 'sound'.  He had a collaborator.  [and it wasn't his 'cranially' challenged cousin.]
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« Reply #34 on: February 11, 2017, 02:21:38 PM »

To answer question - I'd like Jan to add his twist during Pet Sounds Sessions. Dean add some background vocals.
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Peadar 'Big Dinner' O'Driscoll
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« Reply #35 on: January 24, 2020, 09:21:47 AM »

The closest you'll ever get is the Legendary Masked Surfers album, available on CD.

Anyone own a copy of this - https://www.discogs.com/Jan-Dean-Legendary-Masked-Surfers-Rarities/release/6224989

Picked it up today at my local. Can find very little info online about it.
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« Reply #36 on: January 24, 2020, 10:00:19 AM »

Peadar 'Big Dinner' O'Driscoll,


I have that LP. It's a bootleg from the 70's. Great, great music.
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Joel Goldenberg
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« Reply #37 on: January 24, 2020, 11:02:46 AM »

Sure, Brian surpassed Jan overall, but Jan far surpassed Brian for comedy.

I'll take The Submarine Races, One Piece Topless Bathing Suit, the spoken-word skits of Jan and Dean Meet Batman and Side 4 of the Jan and Dean 1971 Legendary Masters album (the entire original Filet of Soul is a bit much) way, way, way over Cassius Love vs. Sonny Wilson, Our Favorite Recording Sessions and Bull Session With the Big Daddy anytime.
Also, while Brian was progressing albumwise, IMO J and D were kind of falling apart in that area — their albums just before Jan's accident were kind of unfocused and, in two cases (Batman and Filet) had to be revised. And as much as I like A Beginning From An End musically, it is very bizarre.
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Steve Latshaw
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« Reply #38 on: January 24, 2020, 02:25:23 PM »

Anyone own a copy of this - https://www.discogs.com/Jan-Dean-Legendary-Masked-Surfers-Rarities/release/6224989
Picked it up today at my local. Can find very little info online about it.

I've owned it for about 30 years.  Great stuff... including the J&D post accident singles by Dean (released as "Jan & Dean", the Jan & Dean Records post accident singles by Jan as "Jan & Dean" and some of Jan's WB singles, plus some vintage Jan & Arnie sides.  All of this later surfaced on authorized CD releases.

However... it has two real rarities on it... Dean's 1973 Legendary Masked Surfers version of SUMMER MEANS FUN, which has 1973-vintage vocal overdubs by Dean, Bruce Johnston and Terry Melcher and an additional piano part.  The other rarity is the 1975 UA single SIDEWALK SURFIN, which uses the 1964 backing track, retains some of the Jan Berry and Sloan & Barri background vocals but also features all new lead and falsetto vocals by Dean.
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Peadar 'Big Dinner' O'Driscoll
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« Reply #39 on: January 24, 2020, 03:02:07 PM »

Thanks fellas, was this a fan club release?  Were a lot of the songs new to you when you heard it back then? as in real "rarities"?

I have maybe 5 or 6 Jan & Dean LP's so I'm unsure of what's here really.
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« Reply #40 on: January 25, 2020, 08:10:54 AM »

I absolutely love Dean's "Legendary Masked Surfers" versions of Sidewalk Surfin and Summer Means Fun that he did with Bruce and Terry. Great energy and great harmonies.

As for Jan and Brian, they are incredibly hard to compare, but intertwined story wise, so it'd be ludicrous not to acknowledge Brian in Jan's story, and Jan in Brian's. They each influenced each other, and were creating very similar sounds simultaneously.

I think you can certainly hear the beginning of the California Sound in pre-BBs J&D music. I recall Dean talking about the process behind recording Barbara Ann for their Greatest Hits Vol 1 album (in the liner notes of the 71 Anthology album).  He said the label didn't allot them much of a budget for the LP, so they had to do most (if not all) the voices themselves, by syncing two tape machines, giving them more tracks to record harmonies on. Their version of Barbara Ann is quintessential California Sound to me. Soaring falsetto, locked harmonies, tight backing track. Jennie Lee, Baby Talk, Sunday Kind of Love, and particularly Linda also contain those elements. When Surfin' was initially released in late '61, I don't think it's any stretch to imagine that people would think it sounded like J&D. They had been having hit after hit with their "bomps" since 1958.

However, by the time the Boys have written and recorded Surfin Safari and the material surrounding it, it is clear they have their own style. Both the BBs and J&D were Rock and Roll, but the  BBs had a more present jazz influence, whereas J&D had an R&B influence. Where J&D would be having a total ball, even if that meant singing a little out of tune- The BBs were master vocalists and harmonizers and Jan took notice.

You can see with Jan's versions of "Surfin" and "Surfin Safari" that he was studying, or at the very least, appreciative of Brian's songs and arrangements. But he saw the potential, and that they could be *more*. With J&D's two BBs covers on the "Take Linda Surfin" LP, you have fatter, richer backing tracks than on The BBs versions. While this can partially be attributed to the fact that The BBs played those backing tracks, and had gotten more practice since the initial recordings, there is no doubt in my mind that this "fatter" sound can be largely attributed to Jan's skills as a producer.

Brian watched Jan in the studio. He saw Jan work with the Wrecking Crew (probably years before he got to observe Spector work with the WC), and how Jan's primary instrument was the studio. In the case of Surf City, Jan prepared charts for every musician. Every note was transcribed- for the layers of drums, guitars, and keys. Jan had a vision for how the song should sound, and his behavior and the way he conducted himself in the studio reflected that. He was a man on a mission.

Surf City was a huge leap forward for the California Sound. Where Surfin Safari and even Surfin USA, sound like a contained group, Surf City sounds like a Surfin' Symphony! Double drum set, layered guitars, doubled lead vocals (Jan more present, Brian shadowing him). It's a HUGE sound. No wonder the entire world took notice.

After Surf City, with both Jan and Brian both having a number one hit under their belt, they understandably probably BOTH felt very confident, and like they didn't *need* eachother. This was true. In the coming years, both Jan and Brian would produce hits independent of each other, and in a roundabout way, create two camps for fans to reside in- The BBs camp or the J&D camp.

But the funny thing is, Jan and Brian were close friends with a lot of respect for each other. They were collaborators. Brian and Jan wrote Drag City, Ride The Wild Surf, and many other classics together. They sang on each other's records. (I recall hearing for many years that J&D were possibly on Help Me Rhonda) when Jan was in recovery from his accident, Jan and Brian worked together on Don't You Just Know It, and I believe Brian may have been present at some COS sessions.  I don't think either has *ever* said anything negative about the other.
 
So while the BBs fans will always think Brian was superior, and the J&D fans will always think Jan was superior, it'd be silly to pin these two friends and collaborators against each other.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2020, 09:17:31 AM by NateRuvin » Logged
The Old Ranger
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« Reply #41 on: January 26, 2020, 09:55:00 AM »

If I had a vote, I would say no. I always considered The Beach Boys and Jan & Dean as "musical cousins" and I loved them both. If they combined, we wouldn't have had the large quantity of music released by the both of them.
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