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Author Topic: AGD missing, the future of this forum  (Read 106621 times)
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HeyJude
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« Reply #150 on: January 24, 2017, 06:45:32 AM »

As for AGD, if he wants to come back, I say let him back on a probatory basis. If he acts like a jerk again then re-ban him.

I'm pretty sure he was banned a couple times here already anyways. And yet again, the man publicly (and childishly) mouthed off about the personal life of one of the moderators here - I really doubt the moderators want that kind of petulance pervading this board again, understandably.

Anyone who misses Andrew's knowledge and high standards for research can easily find him on that other board. For the rest of us, who want to reside on a board free of people with a history of juvenile gossip and callow board behavior, we'll probably be happy staying here where the moderators did a fine job cleaning up the filth. Truly this place has been pretty much free of any real hassles for months, and it's been wonderful. 

I have to agree. I think in particular a couple of long overdue "clean ups" have exponentially helped the board. One recent example showed how one person was derailing thread after thread after thread, and that has now been fixed.

I think AGD got more than a fair number of chances; those still bringing up the idea of another "chance" are not, I'm guessing, familiar with how the Mods on this board actually ironically, as I recall, occasionally if not often caught extra s**t for giving him so many chances. Talk about "damned if you do, damned if you don't."

I would also say that observers of this should also keep in mind that when someone, it doesn't matter who, starts saying stuff about YOU and YOUR FAMILY, however incorrect or trollish it may be, it's just *very different*, and the Mods here had to put up with stuff that nobody should have had to.

Something else to chew on: The ramifications of so much *incorrect* info (both the gossipy crap and stuff more germane to the actual band) being spread over the years, both unknowingly and knowingly, continue to be felt. There are still people out there working from some really crazy, bats**t insane pieces of information about Brian and Melinda, the C50 tour, and other stuff.

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« Reply #151 on: January 24, 2017, 07:11:32 AM »

<<I dunno, this is just coming across as stirring the s**t back up. I don't recall anyone in that thread calling Steve Desper an "asshat" or "idiotic." It's especially unfair to make these characterizations of other posters when apparently *none* of the original posts in question are still up on this board. >>

Trigger Warning:

I'm not sure of your relevance here?  The instigators of this mess - who continue to stir it up in some bizarre, desperate attempt to validate their behavior, were asshats.  And posted in an idiotic matter, finding political context where none existed.  Mr. Desper was making an analogy based on crowd tone and crowd size at public events.  Period.

<<My recollection may or may not be wholly accurate, but my recollection tells me that a characterization that "asshats" and "idiotic" people ran off Steve Desper from this board is unfair and out of line. It just isn't the simple. So my original post bringing the topic up was simply to put it out there that maybe there's more than one side to the "Desper was run off the board" story; and this is especially important since only a weird redacted, edited version of the original posts survives.>>

There are no two sides.  Asshats and idiotic people did run Mr. Desper off this board.  It's fact.  Period.  He was providing his unique insight out of complete generosity to this forum.  And certain posters felt so micro-aggressed by the fact that Desper mentioned a particular politician's name that they posted in outrage.  The mere mention of that candidate's name clearly endangered these posters' safe space and so they began an attack.

<<I disagree with the idea that politics was "clearly the furthest thing from his mind", and clearly that's something we all have to just agree to disagree about. But it's not as if I was advocating *any* action take place against Desper for making the post. He can post what he wants, and people should be able to respond as they wish. My recollection is that nobody resorted to name calling or attacking Steve Desper. "Your analogy is inappropriate", or some variation of such an argument, is not an attack. >>

Of course it was an attack.  And all who participated should grow up, climb out of their safe space and own it.  Desper - in trying to find an analogy that might best explain crowd size and crowd attitude at Beach Boys shows in the 70s (a very unique experience, if you were there), had no political point to make.  He was simply giving some historical perspective to those who might not have been there, at that time.

The absurdity of all of this is that the entire thing was nothing more than a historical music post by one of this board's most interesting and generous contributors.  But I guess he forgot to say "Trigger Warning" before mentioning said candidate's name in his analogy and there was hell to pay, as his micro-aggressed attackers turned the entire thing into a political rant.

Children.  
« Last Edit: January 24, 2017, 07:45:49 AM by Steve Latshaw » Logged
HeyJude
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« Reply #152 on: January 24, 2017, 07:29:57 AM »


I'm not sure of your relevance here?  The instigators of this mess - who continue to stir it up in some bizarre, desperate attempt to validate their behavior, were asshats.  And posted in an idiotic matter, finding political context where none existed.  Mr. Desper was making an analogy based on crowd tone and crowd size at public events.  Period.

And I once again submit that seeing political context versus not is how the debate got fired up. To me, noting an impressive aspect of a Trump rally and then drawing a line to the Beach Boys is "political" enough for me. And perhaps "political" isn't even the best word to use, as it's the morally, ethically reprehensible content of said rallies that was the problem, so it kind of transcended politics. I don't think people took issue with Desper's post because it was inherently "political" so much as it used a morally reprehensible (in the eyes of many) basis for comparison. "Hey, those rallies where disabled people are mocked and racist rhetoric is bandied about? Let me tell you about how the microphones and PA system were set up and how it reminded me of the Beach Boys tours!"

There are no two sides.  Asshats and idiotic people did run Mr. Desper off this board.  It's fact.  Period.  He was providing his unique insight out of complete generosity to this forum.  And certain posters felt so micro-aggressed by the fact that Desper mentioned a particular politician's name that they posted in outrage.  The mere mention of that candidate's name clearly endangered these posters' safe space and so they began an attack.

Disagree with all of this. You can continue to call people names (and again, this is especially troubling to me because the entire thread we're talking about doesn't exist apparently anymore) and end declarative statements with "Period." as much as you'd like. That you think people were "asshats" is not a "fact."


Of course it was an attack.  And all who participated should grow up, climb out of their safe space and own it.  Desper - in trying to find an analogy that might best explain crowd size and crowd attitude at Beach Boys shows in the 70s (a very unique experience, if you were there), had no political point to make.  He was simply giving some historical perspective to those who might not have been there, at that time.

The absurdity of all of this is that the entire thing was nothing more than a historical music post by one of this board's most interesting and generous contributors.  But I guess he forgot to say "Trigger Warning" before mentioning said candidate's name in his analogy and there was hell to pay, as his micro-aggressed attackers turned the entire thing into a political rant.

Children. 

I think you're politicizing this more than anyone by invoking "safe space" and "trigger warning" and "micro aggression", all silly buzzwords meant to belittle the legitimate ethical questions that can be raised when specifically a *Trump rally* is used as the basis for comparison to the Beach Boys.

I'm also uncomfortable with such a vitriolic characterization of unknown other posters when the entire thread being discussed is gone.

I'd be more than happy to at least attempt to explain why many saw clear overtones in Desper's post that indicated some level of admiration for Trump's rallies, but I have no post to cite.
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« Reply #153 on: January 24, 2017, 07:45:17 AM »

<<I think you're politicizing this more than anyone by invoking "safe space" and "trigger warning" and "micro aggression", all silly buzzwords meant to belittle the legitimate ethical questions that can be raised when specifically a *Trump rally* is used as the basis for comparison to the Beach Boys. >>

My apologies if you found my post politicized.  It was not intended as such.

In fact, in re-reading my post, I now realize, just like Mr. Desper, I forgot to include the phrase "trigger warning." I've now modified this.
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« Reply #154 on: January 24, 2017, 08:00:33 AM »

Apparently pointing out disagreements that some people had with a Steve Desper post is a "trigger" for some people.

Again, nobody was calling Steve Desper an "asshat" or a "child" or an "idiot" or using straw man arguments (suggesting "trigger warnings" are needed) to belittle him.
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« Reply #155 on: January 24, 2017, 08:05:37 AM »

Let's take another example. Suppose I wanted to start a thread somewhere about John Lennon's love and potential obsession with Elvis and so I start a thread in which I make the case that Lennon's obsession with Elvis is akin to Mark David Chapman's obsession with The Catcher in the Rye, and I make that comparison in the subject heading. Do you not think that people might get a little bit upset by the comparison, even though I'm really just comparing two different levels of obsession? Would it not be fair for someone to say, hey, I think that comparison is in bad taste. Would it make sense for me to respond, "Whoa, whoa, whoa, this has NOTHING to do with who I support or don't support. I'm just trying to make a point about Lennon's obsession"?
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« Reply #156 on: January 24, 2017, 09:37:10 AM »

Some context: before Mr. Desper left, in that thread, he stated that Brian Wilson had treated women the same as Trump declared he did in his statement about grabbing women, with the implication that people were unfairly judging Trump on that statement. Also raised in that thread was an anti-Mexican immigrant video that Mr. Desper had previously posted. While I thought people should step back from heavy criticisms of this content in a main-board thread, it is impossible to reasonably assert that his statements were neutral. 
Also the term 'safe space' was derived from particular situations that would not apply here. And the misapplied sarcasm surrounding that would more accurately apply to one who leaves because he wants to avoid people disagreeing with him than those who are ready to stay and talk about disagreeing. Ditto 'trigger warnings'.
Those most sarcastic about these terms are so often the ones who 'can't handle' people expressing their opinions.
I advocated backing off Desper, but the representations in this thread are incorrect.

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« Reply #157 on: January 24, 2017, 09:58:32 AM »

Some context: before Mr. Desper left, in that thread, he stated that Brian Wilson had treated women the same as Trump declared he did in his statement about grabbing women, with the implication that people were unfairly judging Trump on that statement. Also raised in that thread was an anti-Mexican immigrant video that Mr. Desper had previously posted. While I thought people should step back from heavy criticisms of this content in a main-board thread, it is impossible to reasonably assert that his statements were neutral. 
Also the term 'safe space' was derived from particular situations that would not apply here. And the misapplied sarcasm surrounding that would more accurately apply to one who leaves because he wants to avoid people disagreeing with him than those who are ready to stay and talk about disagreeing. Ditto 'trigger warnings'.
Those most sarcastic about these terms are so often the ones who 'can't handle' people expressing their opinions.
I advocated backing off Desper, but the representations in this thread are incorrect.



Well said.
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« Reply #158 on: January 24, 2017, 09:59:07 AM »

Something else to chew on: The ramifications of so much *incorrect* info (both the gossipy crap and stuff more germane to the actual band) being spread over the years, both unknowingly and knowingly, continue to be felt. There are still people out there working from some really crazy, bats**t insane pieces of information about Brian and Melinda, the C50 tour, and other stuff.

I actually brought kinda the same point up the other day. It made me wonder if any rumors had possibly already laid a foundation of negativity in people before the C50 began, and thus creating tensions that destroyed any chance of the guys keeping the reunion/albums going passed what was initially agreed on.
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« Reply #159 on: January 24, 2017, 10:02:03 AM »

Something else to chew on: The ramifications of so much *incorrect* info (both the gossipy crap and stuff more germane to the actual band) being spread over the years, both unknowingly and knowingly, continue to be felt. There are still people out there working from some really crazy, bats**t insane pieces of information about Brian and Melinda, the C50 tour, and other stuff.

I actually brought kinda the same point up the other day. It made me wonder if any rumors had possibly already laid a foundation of negativity in people before the C50 began, and thus creating tensions that destroyed any chance of the guys keeping the reunion/albums going passed what was initially agreed on.

I dunno. I've heard some pretty laughably incorrect info about the end of C50, but it was pretty much exclusively bad info meant to put the blame on someone other than Mike (including a few crazy theories that aren't even mentioned in Mike's book at all), and it was all stuff put out after C50 was over.
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« Reply #160 on: January 24, 2017, 10:05:03 AM »

Oh carol I know
Billy, that's GREAT! Luckily I wasn't drinking anything as I read it!
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« Reply #161 on: January 24, 2017, 10:07:56 AM »

Mike's password is "wheeeen" LOL
Then he must have great memory. I would always type the wrong number of e's... Huh
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« Reply #162 on: January 24, 2017, 10:40:03 AM »

However, I think the Smiley Smile board is perfectly OK, and this same very lively thread is proof of it. The "traffic" may be 10% lower (maybe), but the.... well, let's be kind and just say "the signal to noise ratio"... is 1000% higher (well, 970% after my "contributions" here).
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« Reply #163 on: January 24, 2017, 12:35:31 PM »

Let's take another example. Suppose I wanted to start a thread somewhere about John Lennon's love and potential obsession with Elvis and so I start a thread in which I make the case that Lennon's obsession with Elvis is akin to Mark David Chapman's obsession with The Catcher in the Rye, and I make that comparison in the subject heading. Do you not think that people might get a little bit upset by the comparison, even though I'm really just comparing two different levels of obsession? Would it not be fair for someone to say, hey, I think that comparison is in bad taste. Would it make sense for me to respond, "Whoa, whoa, whoa, this has NOTHING to do with who I support or don't support. I'm just trying to make a point about Lennon's obsession"?

If you were John Lennon’s engineer then we might want to set aside the uncomfortable aspect of that comparison rather than hone in on it.

Some context: before Mr. Desper left, in that thread, he stated that Brian Wilson had treated women the same as Trump declared he did in his statement about grabbing women, with the implication that people were unfairly judging Trump on that statement. Also raised in that thread was an anti-Mexican immigrant video that Mr. Desper had previously posted. While I thought people should step back from heavy criticisms of this content in a main-board thread, it is impossible to reasonably assert that his statements were neutral.  
Also the term 'safe space' was derived from particular situations that would not apply here. And the misapplied sarcasm surrounding that would more accurately apply to one who leaves because he wants to avoid people disagreeing with him than those who are ready to stay and talk about disagreeing. Ditto 'trigger warnings'.
Those most sarcastic about these terms are so often the ones who 'can't handle' people expressing their opinions.
I advocated backing off Desper, but the representations in this thread are incorrect.

Let’s say for the purpose of this argument that Desper is anti-immigrant and a misogynist. Do we want him to post here about his insights into recording the Beach Boys? Would we tolerate an occasional mention of his personal/political views? Do we want to engage with him about those views?
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« Reply #164 on: January 24, 2017, 12:50:28 PM »

Let's take another example. Suppose I wanted to start a thread somewhere about John Lennon's love and potential obsession with Elvis and so I start a thread in which I make the case that Lennon's obsession with Elvis is akin to Mark David Chapman's obsession with The Catcher in the Rye, and I make that comparison in the subject heading. Do you not think that people might get a little bit upset by the comparison, even though I'm really just comparing two different levels of obsession? Would it not be fair for someone to say, hey, I think that comparison is in bad taste. Would it make sense for me to respond, "Whoa, whoa, whoa, this has NOTHING to do with who I support or don't support. I'm just trying to make a point about Lennon's obsession"?

If you were John Lennon’s engineer then we might want to set aside the uncomfortable aspect of that comparison rather than hone in on it.

We might but I wouldn't blame anyone for engaging with it and I would hope that if I were the engineer, I would be able to accept that and take ownership over my words and actions.
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« Reply #165 on: January 24, 2017, 12:57:03 PM »

Let's take another example. Suppose I wanted to start a thread somewhere about John Lennon's love and potential obsession with Elvis and so I start a thread in which I make the case that Lennon's obsession with Elvis is akin to Mark David Chapman's obsession with The Catcher in the Rye, and I make that comparison in the subject heading. Do you not think that people might get a little bit upset by the comparison, even though I'm really just comparing two different levels of obsession? Would it not be fair for someone to say, hey, I think that comparison is in bad taste. Would it make sense for me to respond, "Whoa, whoa, whoa, this has NOTHING to do with who I support or don't support. I'm just trying to make a point about Lennon's obsession"?

If you were John Lennon’s engineer then we might want to set aside the uncomfortable aspect of that comparison rather than hone in on it.

Some context: before Mr. Desper left, in that thread, he stated that Brian Wilson had treated women the same as Trump declared he did in his statement about grabbing women, with the implication that people were unfairly judging Trump on that statement. Also raised in that thread was an anti-Mexican immigrant video that Mr. Desper had previously posted. While I thought people should step back from heavy criticisms of this content in a main-board thread, it is impossible to reasonably assert that his statements were neutral.  
Also the term 'safe space' was derived from particular situations that would not apply here. And the misapplied sarcasm surrounding that would more accurately apply to one who leaves because he wants to avoid people disagreeing with him than those who are ready to stay and talk about disagreeing. Ditto 'trigger warnings'.
Those most sarcastic about these terms are so often the ones who 'can't handle' people expressing their opinions.
I advocated backing off Desper, but the representations in this thread are incorrect.

Let’s say for the purpose of this argument that Desper is anti-immigrant and a misogynist. Do we want him to post here about his insights into recording the Beach Boys? Would we tolerate an occasional mention of his personal/political views? Do we want to engage with him about those views?

I get the practical side of treading more lightly with insiders with valuable knowledge, but we also have to maintain a sense of fairness and an individual sense of dignity and all of that. I don't particularly like the idea that we should ignore something objectionable that someone says because of the connection to a band, artist, etc. But "not ignoring" it isn't necessarily a big deal.

That is, to the second point above, I think Mr. Desper's views were tolerated. Disagreeing with views is not intolerance. Once again, nobody called for him to be banned or suspended or anything of that sort. I think the only action anybody was calling for was, in some cases, that it should be moved to the Sandbox due to its nature.

If the point is that we shouldn't engage with him even if there is something inappropriate or objectionable, then that's where a disagreement likely stems. Again, I get the idea of maybe "not honing in" on something objectionable if we value the information/knowledge often imparted from that person.

But I think, especially when we're talking simply about *pointing out* the potential inappropriate nature of the comparison, and/or disagreeing with, rather than calling him names or calling for a banning, etc., there's nothing wrong with engaging those views.

So if John Lennon's engineer made a comparison in bad taste concerning Chapman, I don't think it would be out of line to point that out.
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« Reply #166 on: January 24, 2017, 12:59:30 PM »

Let's take another example. Suppose I wanted to start a thread somewhere about John Lennon's love and potential obsession with Elvis and so I start a thread in which I make the case that Lennon's obsession with Elvis is akin to Mark David Chapman's obsession with The Catcher in the Rye, and I make that comparison in the subject heading. Do you not think that people might get a little bit upset by the comparison, even though I'm really just comparing two different levels of obsession? Would it not be fair for someone to say, hey, I think that comparison is in bad taste. Would it make sense for me to respond, "Whoa, whoa, whoa, this has NOTHING to do with who I support or don't support. I'm just trying to make a point about Lennon's obsession"?

If you were John Lennon’s engineer then we might want to set aside the uncomfortable aspect of that comparison rather than hone in on it.

We might but I wouldn't blame anyone for engaging with it and I would hope that if I were the engineer, I would be able to accept that and take ownership over my words and actions.

Well put.

I just don't like the idea that anybody here should have to compromise their ethics or morals (e.g. *not* say something to an insider that they *would* say to a random poster) in exchange for interesting Beach Boys trivia.
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« Reply #167 on: January 24, 2017, 01:07:40 PM »

I'm completely with Donny on this.  I come here for one reason only--to discuss the Beach Boys.  I could not care less what any of you believe in, vote for, support, etc. I do not come here for that. I may go to other boards for political speak, I may not but none of it is relevant to the Beach Boys world. If someone with an insane amount of actual inside knowledge, be it Steve Desper, Matt Jardine, Ray Lawlor or similar, wants to come here and share that with us, then that should be all that matters to a Beach Boys board. Disagree with them (or agree) in your own world politically, but lets just discuss what we come here for, can we?
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« Reply #168 on: January 24, 2017, 01:13:47 PM »

2Chocolate Shake & Mr. Jude (Replies No. 164-66): +1000!

To get back to topic, what thorgil brought, the forum's fine. The thing about dropped activity is myth. I rmbr vividly in 2012, June-July, around C50, not many people posted here after 8pm Board Time. F.ex. 5 posters hanging about. So what's the big deal?
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« Reply #169 on: January 24, 2017, 01:18:07 PM »

I'm completely with Donny on this.  I come here for one reason only--to discuss the Beach Boys.  I could not care less what any of you believe in, vote for, support, etc. I do not come here for that. I may go to other boards for political speak, I may not but none of it is relevant to the Beach Boys world. If someone with an insane amount of actual inside knowledge, be it Steve Desper, Matt Jardine, Ray Lawlor or similar, wants to come here and share that with us, then that should be all that matters to a Beach Boys board. Disagree with them (or agree) in your own world politically, but lets just discuss what we come here for, can we?

The calls for the political thread to be moved to the Sandbox cover the one scenario you describe. Some balked at the suggestion of moving it.

As for the rest, it just totally depends on what we're talking about. Where is the line drawn? And is saying "I think that's an inappropriate analogy" really clamping down on also discussing the band? The two aren't mutually exclusive.

It *could* have gone like this:

1. Initial post favorably comparing the impressive nature of Trump rallies to an era of BB tours.

2. Posters pointing out in light of the content of the Trump rallies that such a comparison is ill-advised, or inappropriate or whatever descriptor one chooses to use.

3. Initial poster acknowledges the concerns of people in #2, perhaps agrees the analogy would not be advisable given the content of those rallies (or at least given the heated political/election season), and perhaps re-addresses the original post and point of discussion exclusively on the Beach Boys.

That probably would have been it. But nobody would acknowledge there was *anything* objectionable about the premise of the initial post (to my memory), and then it became a semantics sort of thing.

If others want to compromise their morals and ethics to ensure interesting Beach Boys facts and anecdotes, then feel free. But I don't think that should be expected of everybody. Politely asserting one's moral/ethical problems with a post comparing the Beach Boys to something objectionable is not beyond the pale in the slightest.
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« Reply #170 on: January 24, 2017, 01:19:30 PM »

2Chocolate Shake & Mr. Jude (Replies No. 164-66): +1000!

To get back to topic, what thorgil brought, the forum's fine. The thing about dropped activity is myth. I rmbr vividly in 2012, June-July, around C50, not many people posted here after 8pm Board Time. F.ex. 5 posters hanging about. So what's the big deal?

The board has ups and downs like any board. Sometimes low activity is due to nothing going on in the BB universe. Other times, there is stuff going on and still not that many folks are posting.
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« Reply #171 on: January 24, 2017, 01:23:59 PM »

The board has ups and downs like any board. Sometimes low activity is due to nothing going on in the BB universe. Other times, there is stuff going on and still not that many folks are posting.
Exactly. Despite some people saying the low activity is due to no news, what you describe in the last point totally takes place.
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« Reply #172 on: January 24, 2017, 01:27:02 PM »

Mr. Desper left because he was disrespected. The thread has been deleted. I assume because it reflects poorly on the board. Hopefully, he'll return. There's a lot more I could say about this, but what's the point? He's surely missed by many members and readers. I will say though, that I remember reading his initial post and thinking "oh yeah, I just heard about this". Meaning, I was watching TV or reading an article which mentioned Trump's rallies and contrasted them with Clinton's. Specifically, that he'd sometimes have multiple rallies (in different states) on the same day. It's not hard to imagine how that might have sparked Desper's memories of the BBs touring. Also, whether or not Desper was called an "asshat" or an "idiot" is completely beside the point.

If you were John Lennon’s engineer then we might want to set aside the uncomfortable aspect of that comparison rather than hone in on it.

We might but I wouldn't blame anyone for engaging with it and I would hope that if I were the engineer, I would be able to accept that and take ownership over my words and actions.

Well put.

I just don't like the idea that anybody here should have to compromise their ethics or morals (e.g. *not* say something to an insider that they *would* say to a random poster) in exchange for interesting Beach Boys trivia.

I agree with DonnyL. I also think insiders and honored guests and moderators should be held to the same standards as everyone else, but it's not a matter of bringing them down, but raising everyone else up. Engaging wasn't the problem, it was the disrespectful tone of a few posters. And sure, you can disagree while maintaining tolerance, but I disagree that Desper's views (or perceived views) were entirely tolerated. Generally speaking, HeyJude, I think you have been downplaying the reaction by some in that thread. It's too bad we can't go back and refresh our memories.
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« Reply #173 on: January 24, 2017, 02:04:18 PM »

Mr. Desper left because he was disrespected. The thread has been deleted. I assume because it reflects poorly on the board. Hopefully, he'll return. There's a lot more I could say about this, but what's the point? He's surely missed by many members and readers. I will say though, that I remember reading his initial post and thinking "oh yeah, I just heard about this". Meaning, I was watching TV or reading an article which mentioned Trump's rallies and contrasted them with Clinton's. Specifically, that he'd sometimes have multiple rallies (in different states) on the same day. It's not hard to imagine how that might have sparked Desper's memories of the BBs touring. Also, whether or not Desper was called an "asshat" or an "idiot" is completely beside the point.

If you were John Lennon’s engineer then we might want to set aside the uncomfortable aspect of that comparison rather than hone in on it.

We might but I wouldn't blame anyone for engaging with it and I would hope that if I were the engineer, I would be able to accept that and take ownership over my words and actions.

Well put.

I just don't like the idea that anybody here should have to compromise their ethics or morals (e.g. *not* say something to an insider that they *would* say to a random poster) in exchange for interesting Beach Boys trivia.

I agree with DonnyL. I also think insiders and honored guests and moderators should be held to the same standards as everyone else, but it's not a matter of bringing them down, but raising everyone else up. Engaging wasn't the problem, it was the disrespectful tone of a few posters. And sure, you can disagree while maintaining tolerance, but I disagree that Desper's views (or perceived views) were entirely tolerated. Generally speaking, HeyJude, I think you have been downplaying the reaction by some in that thread. It's too bad we can't go back and refresh our memories.


Regarding "asshat" and "idiot" and all of that, that was a reference to unnamed posters here in this thread being called those names. I just thought it was odd to lament Desper departing despite not (to my memory) being called any names or anything of that sort, by employing name calling targeted at some unnamed group of people. That it concerns posts that we can no longer read is what troubles me as well. That goes for the whole narrative of Desper being "run off" in general; we don't have the thread to read anymore so I'm not prepared at this juncture to let stand a narrative that puts *all* of the responsibility for his absence on this board and/or members of the board.

As for downplaying the reaction of folks in that old thread, it's certainly possible. I absolutely would prefer to read back through all of that before offering commentary.

But my memory of that thread is such that I do remember my takeaway at the end of the day was not that he had been unfairly "run off" by members of the board. The whole thing was lamentable, and some restraint and "thinking before posting" was probably due from all sides (including detractors as well as Mr. Desper).

Separately, I'm not necessarily comfortable with the assumption that the thread was deleted specifically or solely because it reflected "poorly on this board", as if it was covering up members "running off" Desper from the board. I honestly have no idea how the entire thread was deleted instead of simply locked. I do remember the post that re-posted Desper's original comments *sans* any political references, which proved to me more than anything that the damn post could have been made that way in the first place.

Let me also mention that I'm no stranger to overreaction or misinterpretation of one's motives in starting a thread. So believe it or not, I'm empathetic to the motives behind a post being mischaracterized. I started a thread a year or two back trying to delve into some comments Elliott Lott had made circa 1999 about Mike not wanting to appear on stage with Carl, and a couple of the usual pro-Mike suspects immediately jumped on me assuming I was just looking to start some sort of anti-Mike thread. As I recall, I acknowledged how it could easily appear or be interpreted that way (I think I even said so in my *initial* post), and went to great pains to *very specifically* explain that I truly was trying to get to the bottom of a murky piece of BB-related history. I didn't feign incredulity as if I didn't even understand how someone could *possibly* read something negative into my motives. After being lambasted by the usual small group of suspects, the thread kind of died down, and eventually Ray Lawlor posted basically confirming and elaborating on that very story, which was the *precise* thing I was looking for when I started the thread.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2017, 02:12:19 PM by HeyJude » Logged

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« Reply #174 on: January 24, 2017, 02:49:02 PM »

Let's take another example. Suppose I wanted to start a thread somewhere about John Lennon's love and potential obsession with Elvis and so I start a thread in which I make the case that Lennon's obsession with Elvis is akin to Mark David Chapman's obsession with The Catcher in the Rye, and I make that comparison in the subject heading. Do you not think that people might get a little bit upset by the comparison, even though I'm really just comparing two different levels of obsession? Would it not be fair for someone to say, hey, I think that comparison is in bad taste. Would it make sense for me to respond, "Whoa, whoa, whoa, this has NOTHING to do with who I support or don't support. I'm just trying to make a point about Lennon's obsession"?

If you were John Lennon’s engineer then we might want to set aside the uncomfortable aspect of that comparison rather than hone in on it.

Some context: before Mr. Desper left, in that thread, he stated that Brian Wilson had treated women the same as Trump declared he did in his statement about grabbing women, with the implication that people were unfairly judging Trump on that statement. Also raised in that thread was an anti-Mexican immigrant video that Mr. Desper had previously posted. While I thought people should step back from heavy criticisms of this content in a main-board thread, it is impossible to reasonably assert that his statements were neutral.  
Also the term 'safe space' was derived from particular situations that would not apply here. And the misapplied sarcasm surrounding that would more accurately apply to one who leaves because he wants to avoid people disagreeing with him than those who are ready to stay and talk about disagreeing. Ditto 'trigger warnings'.
Those most sarcastic about these terms are so often the ones who 'can't handle' people expressing their opinions.
I advocated backing off Desper, but the representations in this thread are incorrect.

Let’s say for the purpose of this argument that Desper is anti-immigrant and a misogynist. Do we want him to post here about his insights into recording the Beach Boys? Would we tolerate an occasional mention of his personal/political views? Do we want to engage with him about those views?
I would want him to stay and my inclination would be to let it slide, which is what I did and what I suggested others do. I agree with you on that. I'm just disagreeing with some representations of what went on.
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